Let me preface the following remarks with the fact that I own or have owned and shoot the following calibers: .17 Ackley Hornet, .243 AI, .257 AI, .30-06AI, and for similiar reasons the .22 K hornet.



Now to the problem; it is the need to fireform cases sometimes twice to get the ideal brass for best performance. Now it's not that I am in any way opposed to pulling triggers, but rather with some of the higher pressure/velocity performers my concern runs to barrel wear. If peak accuracy is going to occur after something like 100 rounds and continue on for another 600 - 800 shots, why then use that golden time to make brass? Perhaps it is the unique nature of being both a reloader and a shooter which causes me to want an "adequate" supply of cases... As range time and access becomes more of an issue these areas of consideration have surfaced for me when evaluating my next rebarreling choice.

I think that anytime you build a "Hot Rod", like the Ackley series of cartridges, concern for barrel life has to be set aside. There are no "free rides". You want more velocity, you pay the price in reduced barrel life.
I have been shooting an improved version of the .223 Rem.( 35 degree shoulder as opposed to 40) in a 11.5 lb., 15" barreled XP for about 10 years. I'm getting 3450 fps with 50 gr. bullets. I don't think that this cartridge is as harsh on barrels as other "improved" cartridges mainly because it is not overbore to start with. Many of the most popular cartridges that get the Ackley tratment are overbore to begin with and the extra powder only make the barrel erosion worse.

I'm been pretty lucky as I shoot the parent
caliber before I have an Ackley done so I can get some real world velocity. I haven't found barrel wear to be an issue since I normal fireform with COW or in the case like the 223AI I have a varmit load to fireform cases as not to waste the barrel just shooting paper to get enough cases.

I've got a tight neck 222 and 222AI and they are running about the same amount of rounds fired 2k and both shoot pretty good. I also shoot a 22-250AI,243AI,6mmremAI and 280AI.

IMR just published in the 2007 reloading guide data and pressure for the 280AI which is a first for them on a wildcat.

I had all my fireform case (100) and barrel breaking done in about 4hrs for the 280AI using the COW method. My cases were about 98% formed and once I got a load I loaded up some of those cases and my groups were the same.

I use Select Match grade barrels for my Ackley like Lilja,Hart,Shilen,Kreiger etc.

Just my .02

Thank you gentlemen.

On the IMR data, is not Nosler bringing out their rifle in .280AI?

quote:

is not Nosler bringing out their rifle in .280AI?

Yep last time I looked.
http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=1

Only Ackley round I have ever had is .17 Hornet but I have formed several similar rounds over the years.

The method I have always used with complete success on first fire form is to expand the neck up to a caliber larger and then size it down to form a small second shoulder to achieve correct headspace on first firing. Or start with a parent cartridge of a larger bore size.

Someone else I know just seats the bullets out further to jam in the rifling and achieves the same results.

Once all cases fire formed just a small sight adjustment for the full load.

Time I sight in a rifle and break in the barrel and find max powder cap. I have real close to 100 rounds down the tube. I do load devolpment and fire form 10 or so extra each time.Barrels are kept cool and clean. All my stuff is ACKLYIED. I had a thing for the parent case before I had the chamber cut. I just use it as is then work up the load after it is formed. ie... 338-06AI, 280Ai 17Ah 17-222Ai 20-222AI. Use them as is. A good load for the parent mostly works into a great load for the AI with a bit more powder thrown on. My experience anyway, all with in reason and safety in mind. I doubt the biggest pairie dog slayer in the world could shoot out a 17AH. Coolest round on the planet

I have a 223AI and 22-250AI. On a properly cut chamber headspace is a non issue as there should be a slight crush fit and negate any need for hoopla like bullets into the lands or false shoulders. Both of mine shoot very well, under.5, with fireforming loads as they should having top name barrels and being put together by top name smiths.
Personally I work loads right up to just shy of what I think the AI'd version velocities should be....varibles considered. Get accuracy,velocity, and perfectly formed cases right off the bat. no real downside IMO. Never saw a difference in case forming using fast vs. slow for application powders either loading this way. I don't think there hardly any difference pressure wise with shooting loads that will be safe in the AI's case in the fireforming load. I back off a little just for safeties sake but still +P parent case speeds. FWIW.

quote:

Let me preface the following remarks with the fact that I own or have owned and shoot the following calibers: .17 Ackley Hornet, .243 AI, .257 AI, .30-06AI, and for similiar reasons the .22 K hornet.

Now to the problem; it is the need to fireform cases sometimes twice to get the ideal brass for best performance.

You have just stated a good reason to pick "one size larger cartridge", with a factory load, in the first place... That way you wouldn't have had any problem getting formed brass cheaply and easily without burning up your bbl...

DM

the best a.i. is the 35 whelen a.i.
for a midsize bore the ackley is great imho

It has entered my mind in the last 10 years or so that the AI cartridges and most other IMP. cartridges serve no real nitch in the gun world except to fullfill some sort of ego oriented need of the creaters or users---WAAHHH. I also am past tense guilty but today I can find no real reason why. Toys for boys and men I guess. roger

the 35 whelen a.i. bridges the gap between the 9,3x62's case capacity to make them full equals...that and the case life is a big deal imho.

After playing with the improved or Ackley'd boy toys I have a few impressions which I think relevant. The .17 AI Hornet, the .22 K Hornet, the .257 AI are very well worth the reputed "trouble" for the fun you get. The .243 AI, .30-06 AI are not. In some ways it does have to do with whether or not they produce superior results. Brass life is and should be considered among those attributes. Just my damn opinions again.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
It has entered my mind in the last 10 years or so that the AI cartridges and most other IMP. cartridges serve no real nitch in the gun world except to fullfill some sort of ego oriented need of the creaters or users---WAAHHH. I also am past tense guilty but today I can find no real reason why. Toys for boys and men I guess. roger

I would certainly agree with you on the already effective ones like the 280, 257R, 06, 22/250 etc. etc. Been there Blowing out the taper & sharepening the shoulder also makes many BA's feed less smoothly. But I do love the 30/30 AI and the K-hornet (same principle). The 25/35 AI is also a great single shot round. Here's my #1 in 30/30 AI

Ne thing shooters/reloaders should remember about the AI cases! When Emeritus Ackley was developing his AI cases the cases were dirt soft, subject to lots of stretching and powders back then were much more limited than they are now. BRASS LIFE was a major concern. The flowing of certain cases like the Hornet and the 22-250 or the 250 Savage is well documented and a pain in the A$$. Trimming is a pain too if you gotta do it every third loading or so. Mr Ackley himself told me way back in the early 70s before he died that case life was as much a factor of the improved shoulder as was velocity. My wifes standard 250 Savage will need trimming frenquently unless I make the cases out of Lake City NM brass. Now THERE is work. BUT!! The stuff lasts. Now for my improved 40 deg 250 Savage? Even RP brass will last after the intiial fire-forming for 10-15 loadings before trimming or tossing. Usually the primer pockets give out before the case is trimmed. Why do the primer pockets give out? Because I run it hot. Not flat out but hot! There is no need to Acklify a case and NOT run it hot. Unless you just want a slow mover and are too cheap to buy new brass, which, in the case of the 250 Savage can get costly and difficult to find sometimes. When I barrel a rifle for an Ackley case I use the fire-forming process to break in the barrel. A little Bullseye and a cheap bullet work nicely. COW is fine if you can walk out your door and pop the rifle in the air and not piss off the neighbors. Feed the birds too in the same process. The fire-forming loads also will give you an indication of which bullet will shoot the best too.
As Bartsche said though! [and he`s right!] The Wildcats ARE very definitely an ego trip. I personally love to look down my nose and say I shoot a 25 Souper or a 260 AAR. I also do the New York Times crosswords in INK! So there. Let the flames begin.

Aloha, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
the 35 whelen a.i. bridges the gap between the 9,3x62's case capacity to make them full equals...that and the case life is a big deal imho.

I guess that's why some people like me go thru life and don't see the gaps. Perhaps that is why I was never much as a lady's man? roger

Oft mentioned and something I just don't get is the "fireforming" issue many have. The crush fit at the neck/shoulder junction hold the cartridge very centered and accuracy is outstanding right from the get go. Add that you can start right off at max parent cartridge velocities and then some I just don't see fireforming as an issue.

I fireform all my cases using 18 grains of Bullseye topped off by Cream-of-Wheat and a cotton ball cap to keep it all tight. I can fireform 50 nice cases in less than an hour. And, the bore gets a nice polish while I'm at it. Never lost a single case using this method, and the accuracy of the first loading is on par with the rest of the loadings. I think the hour or two spent in forming cases is easily offset by the lack of time spent trimming cases and the added downrange performance. ~JT

I've had a few ackleys over the years, and agree that the improvement generally isn't worth the effort. I can see rounds like the 223 AI, where you spend less time trimming brass, where the case configuration is a benefit.

But for other uses, give me the same caliber in a belted mag, and I'll get some serious velocity gain, and not have to diddle around forming cases.

I fireform virtually AVERYTHING I shoot but then--about all I shoot is wildcats. I feel the less you stress the brass the longer it lasts. Bullseye and a dose of COW or a cheap bullet work the brass in one operation. Use of the artificial shoulder method , to me, is the best if you start off with a larger neck than the wanted case. I remeber a case in Hawaii with a Marine Col and a 6.5 Gibbs! I suggested he neck the 30-06 [L.C NM]cases down to 7mm and then to 6.5 creating the artificial shoulder. He said Hell NO! I am going to do it like Rocky Gibbs does it! He loaded 100 cases with a stiff load of H-4831 and seated 160 Hornady bullets to jam the lands. He then fired ALL down my test tube in one sitting. He brought the rifle into my shop [the tube was outdoors] and leaned it against my bench. I asked him to please move it and he grabbed it by the barrel. Well, he couldn`t turn loose of it too quick! Needless to say, the barrel was a mess. I revbarreled it and he STILL was bound and determined to do it the Gibbs way. This time he took it slow. Last I heard it was still shooting. I`ll stick to Bullseye!!

Aloha, Mark

The only AI have now is a .280 AI.
I had no trouble fire forming. I used a Moderate charge of Varget a fairly fast powder (only cause I could waste less of it in the forming than say 4831) and every case i tried including nickle ones worked out fine.
I am about to start a .257 Roberts AI on a cool side safty FN action I just bought. Its got a very interesting latch for the hinged floorplate, not like My origional FN of my JC higgins.
anyway the main reasons I want to go with an AI is 1 I can get about 3000 with the 115 and 120 grain bullets , great for mule deer and or caribu if I get to hunt them.
And 2 its just a really cool looking round !
...tj3006

While I understand the concept of a false shoulder to control headspace in a Ackley it is unnecesary as that crush fit you seek is by design on the neck/shoulder junction. No gains to be got with a properly cut Ackly chamber. I can see it being of value in a improperly cut chamber but still....you then have a improperly cut chamber.