The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Need help with a simple wildcat concept.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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My idea is to create a couple of cats designed to operate in an intermediate/mauser action. The 1st idea was to basicaly neck down the 8X57 to .30 cal to accomodate the use of the plethora of .308 bullets without the need to alter the action. A 7.62X57. This is what I eventualy concieved. Start with a .308 win bbl and using a .308 reamer, ream the chamber out until it will headspace using 7X57/8X57 go, no-go gages. The cases could then be formed from either 7X57, 8X57 or 30-06 brass by setting up a .308 win die in a press with the expander button removed using the same 7X57 go gage in the press to accuratly set the dies up for full length sizing. The lock ring could then be set for repeat use. Seating could also be accomplished with .308 dies. What you would theoretically end up with is similar to an 8X57 custom made for .308 caliber, but with less body taper. Or... A 308 Winchester lengthened by roughly 6mm. Then I realized that I already have everything I need to do the same thing with the 6.5/260 win variation!! The caviats I see at his point are only that the case overall length would have to be determined mathematicaly as the .308 has a slightly shorter neck than an 8X57 or a 7X57. And that the base of the case would have no taper at all, which should not be a problem. Otherwise I am open to criticism or suggestions.. I decided to call them the .308 tomcat and the .264 tomcat respectivley.. The latter should come real close to matching the vaunted 6.5/284 in all respects but with the ability to form brass from 30-06. The only wildcat I have ever used at all is a 257 AI, so I would really appreciate some input.. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | ||
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 Go for it!!  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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So you want a 308 with 30-06 power, but you want to make it as difficult as possible, why? The 30-06 is only 2 years older than the 8x57, what are you going to "modernise"? Unless you want to go past 200gr boolit then the 308 will do it all and above the 8mm will do it better than the 30-06. But thats just crazy me! Shorter fatter case = better/more efficient cumbustion. Read WSM, SAUM | |||
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Perhaps I forgot to mention, I love Mauser (see intermediate) actions and their parent 57mm cases, but disike altering them to accomodate longer cases.. I already have an 03 Springfield. Just looking @ doing something different with the Mausers. The only thing I cant figure out is why I havent heard of anyone else doing it before.. I see a lot of threads with whining about the .308 simply being too little or needing to seat bigger bullets in too deep which makes it too weak.. Same thing with the 260 big time!! I personaly wish the 284 win was more available for such intermediate wildcats but brass and reamers present a problem. This might be a worth while alternative and would fit more in the magazine. Who knows, the 264 Tomcat could be a real good 1000 yd round, its got the makins.. I see a lot of potential upside. The 8X57 is a really sweet animal, but I personally find the .323 bullet selection to be wanting.. Why would anyone who has a problem with such a simple wildcat hang out on the wildcat forum? Still looking for for some input from experienced wildcatters. Is this something that will potentialy work? AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I'M not quite sure why you're making a simple necking down a x57 case to 30 cal into such a complicated affair...you just described a 30x57, slightly longer 7.65 Mauser, a necked up 257 Roberts or 7x57 necked up to 30 cal, or an 8x57 necked down to 30 cal...all of which have been done. But because the mauser action can handle the length of a 30-06 or an 8mm-06 what you're describing is basically turning a 30-06 into a 2.24" sick 30-06...that's going backwards according to many people. There are PLENTY of good 8mm bullets and I wouldn't call the 8mm a "sweet animal"...more like a WORKING animal, and the 8mm Mauser doesn't take a back seat to ANY 308 W or 30-06. But if you want a "3057", reamers are cheap and so are cheap barrels...nothing hard or wrong with doing one for yourself. I think you need to check out the dimensions of a 308 first tho'...using a 308 reamer the way you are thinking/talking about WON'T give you a chamber to fit a x57 case...it will give you a bostid, something BETWEEN a x57 and a x57 AI. I'm asking the same question as the "Dane"...his answer should have given you a clue...You ask and you got an answer...I don't think the Dane OR I have any problems with the "simple" concept...you DON'T see that particular wildcat around because it just never caught one for a ton of reasons...including simply rechambering the 8mm Mauser to 8mm-06, a much more simple and VERY cheap way to get more power but that doesn't mean the 3057 wouldn't be a useful hunter...back in the olden days or today. Luck | |||
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What is so complicated about using a .308 reamer and X57 gages?? Another who sees it as not worth while.. OK, Thats fine, Im not looking for democratic approval. A little wildcatting expertise would be nice though. What about my idea to set up the dies with a go gage? Is that something that would work or does it present a potential problem? Anyone? I would also be most intrested in more information of it having already been done. By whom? Any data? I have several ackley books and others on wildcats but Ive not seen a 30X57. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I say go for it! Life is too short. There's nothing wrong with your idea. What do you have to loose? A 30 cal take off barrel? Thats nothing.  Doug Humbarger NRA Life member Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club 72'73. Yankee Station Try to look unimportant. Your enemy might be low on ammo. | |||
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 roger  Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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 x 2 I think everyone should have toys.ENJOY!!! What you want to do is bound to lead somewhere   rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Hey, Hoss...I've been wildcatting 50 odd years...and YOU haven't even bothered to check out the fact that the 308 reamer has different dimensions...AND WON'T WORK LIKE YOU'RE SUGGESTING. You keep asking questions but blow off the answers. You think I'm going to give you any more information???? Get real... | |||
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maybe take the 7.65 X 53 Argentine and just neck it down .003" to use standard .308" bullets? Rich | |||
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Have you considered the 30-284? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I assume that tirade was directed at me. So you wish to boycott me. OK. Im good with that, Ive not found anything youve said thus far particularly usefull anyway. And yes I am aware of the reamer taper. Merry Christmas everyone!!!  AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Thanks Rich, but I dont think the 53mm case would offer anything beyond the 308 win. Good thought though. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Yes I have. I love the potential for using the 284 case in a Mauser but it has its cavats as well. Most notably brass and die availability. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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What you describe is "possible", and using headspace gages to set up re-sizing dies IS a good idea. The only issue you'll have when running the 308 reamer in deeper is that you'll end up with an oversize chamber base diameter. You'll have bulges in your fired cases, but this won't--IMO--create a dangerous condition Dave Manson | |||
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Instead of necking down to a boring 30 caliber, How about building a WC for the 200 0.323" NPT? Maybe find a source for virgin 284 Win cases that have not been necked. Put the 21 degree Mauser shoulder on it at a longer 1.875" vs the 284 std 1.775" and trim to the Mauser's 2.24". ________ Ray | |||
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Thanks Dave. I need to sit down and determine just how much additional thickness there would be at the base, but it cant be much for only adding 6mm of length. I think that if needs be the reamer could be altered to accomdate rather easily without effecting its original purpose. Ray, Obviously I dont share your sentiment about the .30 being boring. No problemo.. But what do you mean by 200 0.323 NPT ?? AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Oh, nevermind. I got ya! 200 gn partition, right? AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Yep - IMO, the best 8mm Bullet. Wouldn't matter any further about 8mm selection. ________ Ray | |||
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I think that due to the differences in the strength of the web area in the 308 case vs the 8mm case there would be very little gain in velocity over the 308 due to the lower working presure limits of the 8mm case. The decrease in body taper and increase in case capacity will help. But, higher velocity is a small part in designing a cartridge. The plus side of the equation would be the Mauser is made to feed a 57mm case and versus the 06 you would be able to design the throat to allow for where you wanted to seat a 180 gr long, high BC bullet and not run out of magazine box and maximize your designs potential. | |||
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I think what Foobar and Dave are trying to tell you is that the process you are describing will yield a chamber and ammo that will work for one shot, but then resizing becomes an issue. If, as you note, you start playing with body tapers, then you are talking custom dies and reamers, and the cost goes out the roof. I might mention too that the 7x57, 8x57 and 308 all have different shoulder angles, so headspacing guages are not exactly interchangeable between them. All this to use an intermediate length action. Why not just start with something like a VZ-24 or any other standard M-98? I have built approximately 10 Mauser customs in the last 2 years, and magazine length has not been an issue. Why make it one? The fact is that the standard 30-06 COL is less than 1/8" more than the max COL of the 8x57. You could chamber for the standard 06 and simply seat the bullets slightly deeper. | |||
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Hey, wild cats are fun and special. it is your money, so use it as you want to! | |||
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I researched this some months ago and you can use 7.7x58 Jap reamers and dies. The reamers I looked at cut the same diameter neck as a .308 Win. Plentiful .30-06 and 8x57 brass can be used along with 7.7x58 brass. All you need to do is use a .308 expander. As mentioned, make sure the reamer will clean up the chamber.
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How do you figure that? The 8x57J was developed in 1888, wasn't it? The JS version came along about 1904, but the case did not change except for a slight opening of the neck to accept the .323" diameter bullet instead of the .318" diameter ones. For years, some manufactuers made their 8x57 ammo with .321" bullets, so they could be used in either version. Anyway, as I see it until informed otherwise, the 8x57 case is at least 18 years older than the .30-'06, and at least 12 years older than the .30-'03 even if one accepts some of the reports which date development of the '03 case to 1900 instead of 1903. | |||
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Or, you could make a chamber AND dies by just running a .30-06 reamer in short, rather than running a .308 reamer in long. Then you could simply grind off the bottom of a .30-06 sizer die to get a good FL sizer. You could get that almost free if you started with a used .30-06 sizer die from just about any gun show junk box. It would work fine for sizing either 8m/m Mauser brass OR .30-06 brass for use. I make that sort of odd-balls all the time and though they aren't fancy or SAAMI standardized, they DO work. You just need to re-stamp them (gun and die) as to what they are if you fear their ever getting into the wrong hands. | |||
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That would create a smaller head size and you be resizing the thick brass of the case head. It would be far simpler and cheaper to run trimmed '06 thru a 7.7 FLR die or blow out some once-fired 8x57 brass in a 7.7 chamber. Norma makes 7.7 brass as does Grafs (I think). The 8x57 was designed by the German Commission for the 1888 rifle. The first incarnation of the '06 was the short-lived '03. At the least that makes the 8x57 15 years older. What that has to do with anything is beyond me. The '.06 was nothing more than a scaled-up version of the German 7x57 introduced in '92-'93. Just as the Springfield was a direct copy of the 1893 Mauser rifle with slight alterations. Every cartridge since the 8x57 that has a rebated rim and a .472 in rim size is based on it. If a bottle-neck cartridge with a .472 rimless head was developed 20 years later it is irrelevant. The Germans invented the 6x57 60 years before Remington "introduced" it as the .244 Rem (6x57) - later the 6mm Rem.. Hell, if the 7.62x54 Russian round was rimless, it would be classified as a modern "Short Magnum" today. Being new ain't necessarily progress. | |||
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True, it would create a slightly smaller case head...a very, very, wee bit smaller in that length. So what? Once they are sized to enter the chamber and then fire-formed, they aren't going to grow bigger than the chamber, unless hellaciously overloaded. So subsequent resizings after each shooting won't be any big deal at all. And he is creating a non-standardized custom chamber anyway, so why wouldn't he expect to size and fire-form the brass to it? Certainly any reputable press will do that much re-sizing. There are many ways to skin a cat. Some are less expensive than others. I was trying to point out an inexpensive way to accomplish the same ballistic goal with the same length and same brass he had in mind. And there isn't anything much cheaper than using a .30-06 reamer (every gunsmith who does rebarreling probably has one already) and a used .30-06 die. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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That is "exactly" what the .30 Dunlap is that Art S mentioned. And if not for the fact that it wont clean up my existing .308 chamber, I would jump on it!! Maybe an improved .30 Dunlap?? Hmmm.. Fwiw, I have pretty much decided to keep it simple and just go with a standard .308. My initial idea (or a Dunlap improved) is still tempting, but I have wanted a good .308 Win for a long time anyway. Already have the dies, brass, etc. It wont have the ability to deliver 180 gn slugs like a 57mm case would, but 165 gn slugs @ 2700-2800 fs aint half bad.. Thanks to all who contributed.. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Sounds like a good resolution. (Actually, the .30-06 reamer WILL clean up the chamber of a .308 Winchester...you just have to cut off some of the breech end of the barrel before you rechamber. It will still leave enough original chamber to help guide the reamer into the bore concentric with the old chamber.) | |||
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Art, I have been scratching my head over that statement for a while now. I dont see how it could be so. If the reamer and dies are both .308 win and are both set up with the same headspace gage, how could it possibly be a one shot only situation? Yes there is a slight variation in a 8X57 and a .308 Win shoulder, but again if the dies and chamber are "set" to the same standard, where does the resizing issue come into play? If you mean at the base of the case than that doesnt matter, people neck size only all the time. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Just as you had me re-thinking my resoloution I realized one good reason to not make a 30 Dunlap. It would be way too easy to mistake that ammo (especialy if made from 06 brass) for 30-06 ammo.. For someone who doesnt have an 06 that is not really a problem, I have two of them. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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When is the last time you tried to re-size a case head down .003-005 in.? It takes a great deal of force and a strong press to do it. He can rent a chamber reamer for 7.7 Jap for less than $28.00. A 7.7 Jap die set can be had for less than $30.00. That's a damn cheap wildcat in my opinion. It beats the hell out of grinding down a hardened '.06 die for Pete's sake. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Wildcats And Their Development Need help with a simple wildcat concept.
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