quote:

Do you seriously belive that a ban will be effected by one 2 year old lion? or do you mean that this is the rule and not the exception among lion hunters and PH's in Africa? And that a mistake ( that will be repeated, and also is calculated in the cites permits ) will effect us in that way that every spices will be baned from hunting in the future? Some farm owners ( I now ) are in parts of of Africa hunting/ killing 20-30 lions as PAC every year. ( And yes it is needed, it's defenatly to many of them in that areas. ) Just read other reacent hunting reports on AR.

Certainly one lion is NOT the issue. Enough of these young lion pics make it to the net every year to give us (those who are trying to represent hunting as a conservation tool) serious credibility issues as well as providing statistics for the antis as I eluded to in an earlier post.

Why this lion??? Well...the members of the LCTF were privy to all information surrounding it through various reliable sources. So we (LCTF) did have our ducks in a row on this one and it was a "classic example" of an ongoing problem. It also struck at a time when we are facing serious challenge as hunters...the listing of the lion as endangered.

For these reasons...Aaron chose to speak out against it.

Another thing everybody needs to know...is that with the uplisting, if it were to occur, there is legislation being written right now which will be brought for a vote as soon as the lion is uplisted that will make the engagement in the hunting of lion an illegal act for a US citizen and give the USF&W the authority to prosecute.

quote:

Welcome aboard CHC...please offer the LCTF some contructive talking points as we prepare to engage the Secretary of the Interior. And...some points on how to unite big-game hunters and like minded against the anti-groups.

I really wished I could, if you are being serious.

The problem is, the HSUS and all of its cronies are using the political clout they have amassed over the past 20 years or so and are presenting purely emotional arguements, no scientific or in situ data.

The USF&WS, in normal US Goverment Infantile Insanity is going to bow to the wishes/whims of the group with the most powerful political support, be damned all the real time evidence presented by people with actual working knowledge/experience in the field dealing first hand with lions, with the goverments controlling(?) the management of the species and the problems associated with said management, i.e. depredation by lions on the livestock owned by the native people of the areas, and any associated depredation by the lions on the natives themselves.

HSUS and its cronies are after one thing, to systematically shut down sport hunting of all species, thge lion is simply their showcase species right now. They know that they cannot control the actions of foriegn goverments, so they are going to pressure our goverment as it is and its agency, USF&WS and remove the major source of income for some of these countries by prohibiting Americans from hunting lions.

If they win, I feel that either leopards or elephants are next on their list, probably elephants since they ellicit some of, if not the strongest emotions toward animals of any species on the planet.

Unlike the Alligator that in 10 years went from being endangered to being a huntable species, eliminating the American influx of funds paid to hunt lions will simply give the goverments in the countries a reason to allow the complete extermination of the species.

If the lions are placed on the list, within 10 years or maybe sooner, wild free ranging lions will be extinct. JMO.

quote:

if you are being serious.

100%...no use casting stones between ourselves...I made my point and you...yours

I sincerely hope that you and Aaron and all the folks working with with the LCTF are able to acheive reason and logic as far as management of the lion is concerned and derail the factless emotion that you will going up against.

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
I understand the "whys" of helping but could someone please list the "hows" other than not shooting an under-age lion?

To put it simply: I have no immediate plans to lion hunt, hell, I am just now planning my first safari trip to Africa. So, what can I do? And yes, hopefully someday, I will hunt lion.

Maybe in the ongoing dialogue or changing of the page, my question was overlooked but I still want to know how I as an individual can help. I have honestly looked for an answer but it eludes me.

Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
I understand the "whys" of helping but could someone please list the "hows" other than not shooting an under-age lion?

To put it simply: I have no immediate plans to lion hunt, hell, I am just now planning my first safari trip to Africa. So, what can I do? And yes, hopefully someday, I will hunt lion.

Maybe in the ongoing dialogue or changing of the page, my question was overlooked but I still want to know how I as an individual can help. I have honestly looked for an answer but it eludes me.

Thank you.

Sir...if you are referring to helping the LCTF...we are in the process of getting organized in to entities to accept donations and other support and hopefully we will get a real website up and running soon.

We communicate frequently with John Jackson and Conservation Force who have been single-handedly fighting this battle before us. Contributions to them will help the cause.

We DO NOT compete with Conservation Force and recognize they are the leader in the fight. We are exploring alternative avenues to support the lion than those currently employeed by Mr. Jackson but only plan to support his work and work synergistically with CF. Again CF is the leader.

All with the LCTF have day jobs so at times we move at snail's pace and others with the speed of cheetah...please bear with us.

Follow us for now at www.liondiscussion.wikispaces.com and my email address is ledvm@msn.com you can get Aaron's email address from his posts here on AR.

Dr Easter,
Thank you for the information. I will follow your wiki for now and also look into the works of Conservation Force.

quote:

quote:
Quite simply. If the lion is listed as endangered...trophies cannot be imported into the US. This will have a significant impact. However...it is in the works to make the lion a "no take" species which will make even the engagement of hunting a lion a violation of US law.

60% of the money that goes to lion hunting comes from the US. With the stroke of the pen...a 60% reduction in money can come about. Then...the European Union has vowed to follow suit if the US outlaws lion hunting.

This change in revenue WILL change how governments manage the lion guaranteed!


No it won't, all it will do is cause the various goverments to either drop the price of lion licenses or let the poachers and natiove cattle raising tribes wipe the animals out.

A US ruling will not stop the various goverments from issuing licenses and will not stop the Chinese/Japanese/Saudis or any other Non-American hunter from going to ASfrica and killing lions.

So they lose 60% of their income because Americans can no longer legally hunt lions. they drop the prices and let folks that do not subscribe or are not governed by the ESA, shoot all the lions they want to.

www.shoestringsafaris.com

TexasDoeHuntersAssociation = "Tits Up"!

These comments defy rational description. Saving lion hunting, and thereby lions, and thereby the funding that protects all African game is a very serious undertaking that benefits the lions, the African communities, the African wildlife agencies, and sport hunters. How anyone can make fun of it, or somehow treat it as a joke, defies any logical explanation.

If you truly are serious, then just what do you mean and what suggestions have you to contribute to the solution of a serious problem? You don't have to get on the train, but you shouldn't stand there peeing on the locomotive's drive wheels while it is in the station. It accomplishes nothing and makes you look frivilous. Perhaps you are not so, but the evidence is mounting. Please explain, or just cease.

Not sure who you are Blanco County and could really care less.

My statements mean just exactly as they are posted.

If lions are listed and Americans are no longer allowed access to them and the 60% or more of the income the various countries derived from Americans hunting lions is lost, then they will make adjustments to their management practices.

Whether those adjustments are to lower prices for lion permits to attract hunters from other countries or bow to the wishes of the locals and remove all protection and allow the locals to wipe them out, will only be made evident after the decision is made whether to place them on the list or not.

There IS NO solution to this serious problem, because USF&WS is going to go along with whatever the Greenies are trying to get rammed down everyone's throat and all the scientific/first hand/real time evidence in the world is not going to change that.

The HSUS and its cronies have to large a power base, and with all that is wrong with the US at this point in histry, the average citizen could care less if anyone ever hunted a lion again.

At no point did I say or imply that the money the various african countries receive from American hunters was not important or make lite of that fact.

I believe in an earlier response I stated that had it not been for sport hunting and the revenue generated from it, the leopard would probably be extinct or damn near it.

Maybe if you spent a little more time trying to comprehend the thought or message a person was trying to convey insteasd of looking for people that express things the exact same way you do or think, you might understand someone talking normal plain Texan.

I do not think there is one damn thing that that you, me or the LCFT can do to keep lions off the list.

HSUS and its cronies have too much political clout and our present administration is going to go along with anythingh that group wants, and none of them give a damn about lions, the countries that stand to lose needed income or the people that enjoy hunting lions, and however many or few years down the road it is when wild free ranging lions become extinct those people are going to lay the blame for that extinction squarely on the shoulders of sport hunters.

Once lions are on the list, then they will go after elephants and just work their way down the list.

If you think getting on here and calling me frivilous gives any more credence to your cause, you go right ahead.

All it shows me is an elitist attitude that believes that if other people do not get in lock step with their way of thinking, than they are an enemy in some way.

It is not going to matter how much evidence you, Dr. Easter, Aaron Neilson or the LCTF present before this meeting, I feel that in the end, the HSUS and its c ronies will get their wish and all that some of you folks will have accomplished is further divide hunters because of ypour zealotry and elitism.

CHC,
sorry but I got to say it.

You are such an A$$

I don't give a Fat Rats Ass what you think. I am stating my opinion. I think the damn Greenkies are going to win this one and then go after the elephant next.

If you are right, well you are because I am an ass, a son-of-bitch, a bastard and a horses ass, but that does not matter it does not change anything.

If I am right, then the wild free ranging lions will go extinct, and that is not good for anyone except the Greeniers.

Sorry that your tissue paper ass can not deal with honest open opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Simply taking a young hunter to task for a legal kill

is the WRONG way to get help toward the sought after goal--

And powdering a kid's butt and patting him on the back while telling him his action was OK...when it really was not...is no way to bring up the young up either...one of the problems of this great nation now...but was not done in the house I grew up in.

You shall see my position with respect to this matter as you wish --

I still see it as a legal kill, under the direction of a PH -

The of education (or re-education) of this hunter after the hunt to gain a supporter
should have been the goal of the LCTF and it's proponents.

Not public denigration for a legal hunt.


I spent the past weekend teaching kids about marksmanship, the proper handling, use and maintenance of hunting rifles--

and the hopefully the pleasure to be found in hunting.

Of course,a few in the group needed a stern hand, no "powdering" of their butts for errors

However, I'll bet my message stuck better than-

denigrating them, their behaviour and their dreams and aspirations publicly.

There was "patting" on the back for their participation.


Method makes all the difference--

whether instructing and getting the disseminated information to stick with kids or--

garnering financial and/or direct participatory support from adults for a worthy cause.


Guess we will have to agree to disagree--

nonetheless, my good wishes for the LCTF remain-

as continues my position on it's ultimate effect.

DuggaBoye-O,

I see the points you are making and agree with most.

I have no quarrel with you and appreciate your words of wisdom. They have given me insight.

And...you are right that the PH was the real "at-fault person" for the "green-light". And...we tried to say that in all the posts. I (and Aaron) am also privy to a little more info which I can't share that makes me slightly more synical on the situation.

The only part that I disagree with you about is the "sweeping under the rug" part just to be cordial to a young hunter. Wrong is wrong and sometime there is no other way to point it out than to bluntly state it.

I will let your words echo in my mind for future engagements however.

P.S. The legality argument does not hold a lot of water for me in Africa.

There are plenty of things that are legal in plenty of foreign conutries that I would be critical of someone who engaged.

As an apprentice hunter in Zimbabwe i appreciate all the reports hunters post. I use this forum as student does a library. So please keep posting.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Fouche:
As an apprentice hunter in Zimbabwe i appreciate all the reports hunters post. I use this forum as student does a library. So please keep posting.

It will certainly inform you in "what" and "what not" the average client is after.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
There are plenty of things that are legal in plenty of foreign conutries that I would be critical of someone who engaged.

The same can be said of Nevada!