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One of Us |
Interesting point and whilst I think Lion hunting will continue many should consider alternatives like some classy photographs and a bunch of good memories. Other consideration is from origin to export the skin, skull and bones to the Asian market which not only will go towards paying for your safari but will address the illegal trade in these goods? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Crazyhorse, I'm told it's likely the EU will follow the example of the US, and in a few years, only Russians and Mexicans (and, of course, people from some countries with few international hunters) will be able to take lion trophies home. It's too bad that having a vacation home in Mexico has recently lost much of its appeal. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Don't we have a very recent example of this with the polar bears in Canada? The bottom dropped out of the market as I understand it as most folks (Americans) are not satisfied with "just a few pictures". So, as I understand it, two things happened: fewer hunters and the prices dropped. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can correct or confirm this. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Lane, I have asked a number of PHs what they would have done if they were guiding worldhnter and saw that lion. Several said they have shot it without batting an eye lid. Some have said if the client wanted to, and it was legal, they would have no objection to him shooting it. Not a single one said he would have stopped the client from shooting that lion. | |||
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Well then, Saeed, IMHO, they were all wrong. And that is precisely the problem. When the inmates run the asylum, who is mad? Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Are you comparing a client to ph relationship with an inmate to warden relationship? | |||
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And when the lions came and killed that cow? | |||
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Please explain, how a listing of a species by an American Goverment agency, can stop a foriegn goverment from managing their wildlife as they see fit? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Michael, How would you react if someone kept telling you that you cannot do certain activities in your profession, which are perfectly legal, and you have been doing them for years? | |||
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Note if I had my client shoot this Lion I my ass would have be fired by the operators I work with. It is just not cricket to shoot the young. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Saeed, Perhaps the bias of my feelings has led me to be friends with and have relationships with PH's who are like minded with me...I do not know. But...I have done the same...polled many since this whole thing has started to gauge my thought processes. Unlike you...I have not found one that would have even considered taking that lion in today's Africa. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Quite simply. If the lion is listed as endangered...trophies cannot be imported into the US. This will have a significant impact. However...it is in the works to make the lion a "no take" species which will make even the engagement of hunting a lion a violation of US law. 60% of the money that goes to lion hunting comes from the US. With the stroke of the pen...a 60% reduction in money can come about. Then...the European Union has vowed to follow suit if the US outlaws lion hunting. This change in revenue WILL change how governments manage the lion guaranteed! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Give him another...cattle are a renewable resource. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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That org is so well funded that your wildest dreams could not imagine that happening. We must adapt to beating them at their own game! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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When the inmates run the asylum, who is mad?[/QUOTE] Not quite sure what that means 1/ When the PHs run the hunt 2/ When the client runs the hunt 3/ Whenever a PH makes a decision that people may disagree with Sorry just asking for clarity as I am not sure who the comment is directed at. Clearly this is an emotive issue which has created a great deal of debate. I am also pretty sure that despite the report and subsequent arguments that all the facts are not known to those of us on the forum. The PH involved clearly knew his area and the lion population in that area. Is that population too large, too small, adequate etc, ?? In areas where lions are on the increase and numbers are growing, (ie the Southern part of the Save Conservancy) a PH may feel that taking such a trophy is justified, whereas in areas where lion is on the decline, a PH may stop short. The point I am making is that by simply showing a picture of a lion to a PH does not convey the entire story and situation to the PH. Every situation is different. Of course I fully understand that the argument against this would be that the animal should not be shot irrespective of when /where etc, however I do think that it is a little narrow minded to simply condemn and villify a PH /Client decision without a full and complete understanding of the entire situation. That folks is the domain of the Greenie!! | |||
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Michael, How would you react if someone kept telling you that you cannot do certain activities in your profession, which are perfectly legal, and you have been doing them for years?[/QUOTE] Not to mention the fact that said activity would have a direct bearing on your income and what client may or may not use your services. | |||
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Exactly! We are expecting the PH to make judgments when his own income is at stake! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Something close to that happens fairly often in my profession! But I take your point. Still, IMHO, this lion was not a close call, and that any experienced PH would suggest otherwise is astonishing to me. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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What is with all the extra lines in your posts? Its not poetry... | |||
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So just because its legal and been going on for years means there is no room for development in accepted professional standards? Things change... | |||
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ZimFrosty, I can assure you that when Aaron made his initial rebuttal post...he knew all of the facts right down to the detail. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I always thought that the point of a "profession" was that they had professional standards that were over and above what was stated in the law of the land. In many cases the law is silent on the issues faced by members of the profession. In others, the members simply feel that the law does not go far enough to protect those whom the profession serves, as well as the long term interests of the profession itself. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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As would have a TGTS PH.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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That can not be done unless their revenue begins to decline. Are you seriously stating that those organizations can be beat by such a disorganised group as Big Game hunters? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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No it won't, all it will do is cause the various goverments to either drop the price of lion licenses or let the poachers and natiove cattle raising tribes wipe the animals out. A US ruling will not stop the various goverments from issuing licenses and will not stop the Chinese/Japanese/Saudis or any other Non-American hunter from going to ASfrica and killing lions. So they lose 60% of their income because Americans can no longer legally hunt lions. they drop the prices and let folks that do not subscribe or are not governed by the ESA, shoot all the lions they want to. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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And who amongst us works diligently to keep us disorganized my friend??? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Evidently you feel that anyone that questions what is being done or attempted is at fault. Not sure what is so hard to misunderstand about my statement, disorganised group as Big Game hunters? I am not working dilligently to do anything, I am just asking questions/making comments. I notice Saeed and others doing the same thing. Maybe this is a point where the following needs to be mentioned. Zealot: a person who has very strong feelings about something (such as religion or politics) and who wants other people to have those feelings. I applaud the work you and Aaron are doing to keep the lion from being listed. In reading all the stuff that has been said on the issue however, the only people that will actually be affected by an ESA listing will be American hunters. I just do not believe that at the highest level an animal could be placed on the listings, that an American would be or could be prosecuted for going to the country where the animal exists and shooting one legally under the rules and regulations of that country. I seriously doubt that USF&W in all of its omnipotents will get trade sanctions placed on a country because they allow the shooting of lions. I understand that the countries involved will lose income if the animals are listed, I also understand and agree complewtely that listing the animals will most likely result in their extinction in the wild in the next 10 years at most. I also understand that trying to coerce or even force all hunters to jump on the band wagon to fight the listing is just not going to happen. Somehow, I do not see where an individual asking a question, giving an opinion or voicing a concern, undermines anything. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I simply do not understand CHC. If any of our members think that listing lions is only going to effect american hunters they are dead wrong, It will effect all hunters and it will give the antis one more thing they don't have to spend time on and then they can go after your favorite animal in the world and they will.every victory from them brings us closer to losing our hunting heritage. Why are people not wanting to jump in and help with this i will never understand. Your hunting will be next. If we lose the lion the outfitters will lose and with the loss of money I will not be surprised to see qualty of african hunting in areas that have lions decline each year and that will effect all of the people that hunt elephant and buffalo and plains game. We need your help not your arguing over the young lion that was shot, that is history. I can not change it and niether can anyone else but we can let everyone know we are here to help in anyway possible.I to disagree with Saeed as the PH's I hunt with have told me we have to stop shooting young lions. Please stop fighting amoungst ourselves and become a part of the solution, we need you!!!! | |||
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I stayed a way from posting here for week's. Why? The Lion in question. My congrats to the hunter, it must have been a great moment! Sorry that you are attacked by your fellow countrymen/ sporstmen sharing one of your/ or your lives greatest achivment. Shame on you  But I am offcourse as anywone alse worried about the Lion population. The people that have to take resposibility here is the professionals, not the hunter that is one of us, that belived that his Safari would make a differnce, but was talked into something he belived in and was not what it seemed to be. How many lions have one uf us seen to judge? Shame on the professionals, and as a defend for them as well, we all make mistakes, and they should be proud of it! Those of us that diden't one mistake in live haven't done mutch  Cheers One more thing: A US ban on Lions whant make a differnce. The Chinese are about to sign the biggest contract ever when it comes to foregian investments in SA. ( This week ). The Eastern Europens are hunting more in Africa than ever before. The marked is there. It's all in the hands of the SA professionals! Will they handle it or not? Nils-Ole | |||
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we are not talking about South African Farm raised lions here. We are talking about lions in the wild that are really only protected by us as hunters suppling the outfitters with the funds to fund anti poaching teams and watching over the resource. Folks this not a USA ban, it is giving the lion a status that does alot more than just A US ban. This will have repercussions worldwide for the lions.The other parts of the world will not pay enough to protect our hunting rights and thats what we are talking about. The antis win here then its right down the line untill it gets to the whitetail deer. every hunter should support this not because he is going to hunt lions but because he believes in our hunting future. I am afraid we will make our same old mistake, IF IT DOES NOT EFFECT YOU THIS MINUTE IT NEVER WILL thats how countries have lost gun rights and it will happen here if we don't FIGHT | |||
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Since LEDVM and a few others think that I am the anti-christ on this issue, that is your perogative. Instead of being reasonable people and explaininhg how or why each hunters support is so important, and not being able to understand that some folks, myself as an example, just simply do not follow blindly because someone is yelling fire. Having worked in a modern zoo, species extinction is something I am quite familiar with. I believe I stated elsewhere in one of these discussions about the fate of lions if they are put on the list, was that if people had not shown the monetary value of leopards to the countries with huntable numbers, they would most likely be extinct and not being hunted. I fully understand that putting lions on the list will ensure their demise. But I also understand that closing lion hunting to Americans, will not end lion hunting. It might not bring anywhere near the same amount of funds into the countries with lion populations, but hunting will continue until the last lion is dead. If all of you arrogant, zealous, intelectuals view me as a major enemy, simply because I do not completely agree with your estimations on the situation, that is where the real problem lies. If anyone is influenced by my words, they really need to re-evaluate their life. I am just asking questions and stating my opinion, in all reality that amounts to nothing more than one person stating what they feel about the subject. The fact that I support the effort being made means not one thing to anyone but me. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I for one do not think of you as the anti christ.I simply think the lion is the first step. Will all lion hunting cease, NO you are right but if it is reclassified I will bet any amount that some other animal will be next on the hit list. i simply think we as hunters don't understand our fanatical and organized these people are and when they find a wound they will move in for the kill, in this instance lion hunting, they just know that they will pull the plug on any american who trophy hunts and wants a lion. Once they get it victory and march on. We as hunters can make sure that lion hunting contiues and that the last lion will never have to be dead they can be sustainable. | |||
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@gerryb! It is not hard for me to see your point at all! And I agree in 95% of what you are writeing. But when it comes to founds from hunters supporting the Lions in Africa? Habitat loss, pochers, you name it...... Do you seriously belive that a ban will be effected by one 2 year old lion? or do you mean that this is the rule and not the exception among lion hunters and PH's in Africa? And that a mistake ( that will be repeated, and also is calculated in the cites permits ) will effect us in that way that every spices will be baned from hunting in the future? Some farm owners ( I now ) are in parts of of Africa hunting/ killing 20-30 lions as PAC every year. ( And yes it is needed, it's defenatly to many of them in that areas. ) Just read other reacent hunting reports on AR. To mutch drama for me!. I don't belive that it will be any ban on lion hunting for years to come. If so the dissicion makers are foled into somthing that, I don't can see today.......... Keep on posting reports, but be careful! A lot of people are watching and listening, and that is just how it should be. ( If we don't stick to the rules we will lose! )We all wan't to stike to the rules and the biologists advices. But we have to realise that mistakes will happen, and that is some thing we all can learn from insted of crusefing fellow sportsmen. Nils-Ole | |||
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I never was talking about the lion mentioned in the report. all I said was that incident was done and it can not be changed. I mean that we have to do as good a job as possible trying to shoot older lions that science says make lion hunting susstainable. I have alot less respect for our so called decision makers than you do. I almost can't remember them making a wise decision. They make decisions that will get them elected or appointed and In my opinion the antis are organized and let the decision makers know how they want things to turn out.No I do not think one mistake will make them ban hunting but if we act like we don't care about our mistakes they will use it against us and yes they will ban all hunting if given the chance. I hate that we have to have all this drama but I love to hunt and i am truely scared of these nuts. I don't have that many more years to hunt but I will fight to keep the sport alive for those of you that have decades left to hunt. While I will help the lion task force I do not look down or am I mad at the hunter who shot the magic lion in question as a matter of fact I wish this had come about in a different way but it happened and now I think we all learn from it and go on fighting the good fight. good hunting!! | |||
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Gerryb wrote: "I mean that we have to do as good a job as possible trying to shoot older lions that science says make lion hunting susstainable." "While I will help the lion task force I do not look down or am I mad at the hunter who shot the magic lion in question as a matter of fact I wish this had come about in a different way but it happened and now I think we all learn from it and go on fighting the good fight. good hunting!!" Coulden't have agreed more!  Nils-Ole | |||
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I understand the "whys" of helping but could someone please list the "hows" other than not shooting an under-age lion? To put it simply: I have no immediate plans to lion hunt, hell, I am just now planning my first safari trip to Africa. So, what can I do? And yes, hopefully someday, I will hunt lion. And on the original topic of "No More Reports", I truly hope that does not become a trend. It is a major reason I am here. ___________________________________________________________________________________ Give me the simple life; an AK-47, a good guard dog and a nymphomaniac who owns a liquor store. | |||
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I am not arguing against what you or Dr. Easter or Aaron is saying. I support the work they are doing, and as it stands as of a few years back, HSUS and its cronies have been working to stop all hunting for anything. They do not care how much evidence, ANYONE produces that proves closing down the hunting of lions will result in the species extinction, their goal is to stop hunting, they don't give a damn what happens to the animals. Along comes the defenders, and if ANY other hunter, DOES not immediately bow down and follow their lead, they are branded as traitors or allies of the enemy or worse, That Is Bull Shit thinking. I have never had the desire to hunt an African Lion, but I believe that those that do want should be able to. I do however, having some slight idea about the population makeup of predatory species versus prey species, wonder just exactly how many lions any one individual should be allowed to kill in their lifetime. Oops, sorry, I am questioning the PTB's and their motives for keeping lions off the list, should not do that. I believe all hunters understand the concept of keeping a healthy population of prey species depends on a healthy population of associated predatory species. Greenies and Animal Rights Acvtivists understand none of that, they just know in their being that hunting is wrong and they must stop it at all costs. The anti-hunting element has been working overtime for years now to shut down hunting and as much as it irks me to say it, I think within the next 10 to 15 years, they are going to win. Should we fight it to the bitter end, Hell Yes, burt the first step is to quit alienating peop,le that are on the side of the lion, by accusing them of not being 100% supportive, SIMPLY because they ask questions and make comments. I really have a hard time believing that there is a cause such as keeping lions off the ESA trhat needs a bunch of sheeple following along blindly. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Welcome aboard CHC...please offer the LCTF some contructive talking points as we prepare to engage the Secretary of the Interior. And...some points on how to unite big-game hunters and like minded against the anti-groups. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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