The worst part of this sad saga is that many hunters, who would have supported this venture. Have been put off by the manner it was presented.

Using a fellow hunter and his PH as examples, especially as they have done absolutely nothing wrong, was in extremely bad taste.

When I go hunting, I will pick whatever I want to shoot, as long as it is legal. And I could not care less what others might think.

It really is none of their business.
If they don't like what I do, they are not obliged to do it.

Really great post and assessment of the situation Saeed.

Have read all the posts on the lion "debate". Unfortunately, by the time I got to his hunting report, it had already been deleted.

I couldn't agree with Saeed more, I thought the whole thing was handled in exceedingly poor taste. I don't blame him for pulling the report. No amount of posturing, will make up for the wrong that was done.


Mad Dog

How many lions are there in Africa? Until someone arrives at a viable answer to this question, as far as I am concerned, all lion hunting questions are moot. Damned shame the guy got hammered for doing nothing wrong. I'm with Saeed on this one.

do we really want our behavior soley based on LAWS made by Governments. I for one want as little gov. intervention as possible.If we had no laws on hunting at all does that mean as hunters just kill everything or do we make rational decisions as to what is ok to hunt so that there will be animals to hunt in the future. I would rather us use good sense than some gov. making every rule.Legal does not make it Right.

quote:

Originally posted by gerryb:
do we really want our behavior soley based on LAWS made by Governments. I for one want as little gov. intervention as possible.If we had no laws on hunting at all does that mean as hunters just kill everything or do we make rational decisions as to what is ok to hunt so that there will be animals to hunt in the future. I would rather us use good sense than some gov. making every rule.Legal does not make it Right.

Some may disagree but if there were no game laws in Alaska there would be no game withing 50 miles of any town or especially any village.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

Some may disagree but if there were no game laws in Alaska there would be no game withing 50 miles of any town or especially any village.

Excellant point, and absolutely true!

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by gerryb:
do we really want our behavior soley based on LAWS made by Governments. I for one want as little gov. intervention as possible.If we had no laws on hunting at all does that mean as hunters just kill everything or do we make rational decisions as to what is ok to hunt so that there will be animals to hunt in the future. I would rather us use good sense than some gov. making every rule.Legal does not make it Right.

Some may disagree but if there were no game laws in Alaska there would be no game withing 50 miles of any town or especially any village.

IF ??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Using a fellow hunter and his PH as examples, especially as they have done absolutely nothing wrong, was in extremely bad taste.

Respectfully and with no offense intended toward you Saeed...I for one think that they did do something wrong. They shot a 2 year old lion. In my book, that is the wrong thing to do. We stood up for what we believe is right. Hopefully in the very near future we will be able to make it illegal in Zambia just as it is illegal in Tz now. Even though companies like TGTS enforced such rules in their companies long before it was illegal in TZ.

Mr. Danny McCullum put it best in one of our private LCTF discussions: "It is ashamed that it takes laws to make us (hunters) do what is ethically correct." He was speaking on the harvest of immature lions.

I did not get to see the replies before the post was pulled. A shame the poster felt he had to pull the post. Perhaps we could use the example posted elsewhere on this forum of a hunt in my country, a clue - helicopter, tahr and 12 gauge, as how we should show restraint, acknowledge the hunter for what he achieved and enjoyed. Legal, absolutely, almost anything goes here. Hunting? well define exactly what is hunting.

Do these situations arise because a market is provided or do they arise because there is a need for a market?

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by gerryb:
do we really want our behavior soley based on LAWS made by Governments. I for one want as little gov. intervention as possible.If we had no laws on hunting at all does that mean as hunters just kill everything or do we make rational decisions as to what is ok to hunt so that there will be animals to hunt in the future. I would rather us use good sense than some gov. making every rule.Legal does not make it Right.

Some may disagree but if there were no game laws in Alaska there would be no game withing 50 miles of any town or especially any village.

IF ??

Steve,

You know I lived in the bush and now I live in Anchorage. I saw changes towards resource conservation during my time in the bush, even near the villages.

In Anchorage I need Bear proof trash cans, have to deal with Moose chowing down on my wife's plants, listen to Coyotes scream at night, and occasionally run into Wolves hiking so I would say there is still game within 50 miles of both places.

This reminds me of the antler restriction threads we get into on another forum. What difference does it make if you shoot an old lion or a young lion? If you aren't killing all the male cohort each year, then killing a young one means you've left an old one for someone else to shoot.

quote:

What difference does it make if you shoot an old lion or a young lion?

If you can make that statement sir...you have no business commenting as you have not spent much time studying the life-cycle of the lion.

It DOES make a difference...many times we have pointed out where to read and see why.

Lions are not whitetails.

So, please point me at something to read on this matter -- or explain it to me briefly here.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
So, please point me at something to read on this matter -- or explain it to me briefly here.

www.liondiscussion.wikispaces.com has a lot of good reading both on the front page and side pages listed on the left-hand side.

Thanks. All I saw in there was administrators arguing about how well lions can be aged, what to do if an underage lion is accidentally shot, and how to convince hunters that they shoot be happy not shooting a lion when they go lion hunting.

No where did I see it stated why it is BAD to shoot young lions.

I may start a separate thread on this after doing some more searches.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

What difference does it make if you shoot an old lion or a young lion?

If you can make that statement sir...you have no business commenting as you have not spent much time studying the life-cycle of the lion.

It DOES make a difference...many times we have pointed out where to read and see why.

Lions are not whitetails.

Most of us understand the reasoning and rational of taking mature animals, etc.

The difficult lies with in the chosen path taken to commuicate a good message and making poor or improper examples...while the message may be well intentioned, the presentation or lack thereof falls way short...

Possibly a class in communications and presentation would be well worth the additional investment....

My question, which has never been answered to my satisfaction, is how to stop the general population implosion of the African Lion.

I do not believe for a minute that indiscriminate, albeit legal hunting is to blame for this crisis. Human-lion conflict, shrinking habitat, poaching, disease, etc all play a role. Indeed, I would say those factors kill more lions (young and old, male and female) than any legal hunting on the whole of the continent.

So, is the call to arms to save lions or to save lion hunting?

Can you do both at the same time or should just saving the lions come first?

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
My question, which has never been answered to my satisfaction, is how to stop the general population implosion of the African Lion.

I do not believe for a minute that indiscriminate, albeit legal hunting is to blame for this crisis. Human-lion conflict, shrinking habitat, poaching, disease, etc all play a role. Indeed, I would say those factors kill more lions (young and old, male and female) than any legal hunting on the whole of the continent.

So, is the call to arms to save lions or to save lion hunting?

Can you do both at the same time or should just saving the lions come first?

You have to save both! Without lion hunting, most lions, along with the rest of the game will be eliminated. Its very simple, lion hunting in a place like TZ, which has roughly 40-50% of Africa's remaining lion population, is a huge necessity for the Tanzania hunting industry. Most operators generate roughly 50% of their annual revenue from lion hunts. Without this revenue, they cannot stay in business. If they go out of business, they can no longer afford to protect the roughly 185,000 km2, of hunting blocks throughout TZ. Without that continued protection, the game is GONE, along with the lion! Cattle, humans, and poaching will take-over completely, without any hope to stop it. The lion's survival throughout Zambia & TZ in particular, is hugely dependent on continued lion hunting, period! Without it, the lion is not the only specie that will suffer greatly.

In a very small nut-shell, that's the story.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
Thanks. All I saw in there was administrators arguing about how well lions can be aged, what to do if an underage lion is accidentally shot, and how to convince hunters that they shoot be happy not shooting a lion when they go lion hunting.

No where did I see it stated why it is BAD to shoot young lions.

I may start a separate thread on this after doing some more searches.

You did not read all the pages to the left sir.

Feel free to start your thread...we would welcome the discussion because the FACTS are on our (LCTF, Aaron & I).

quote:

making poor or improper examples...

Please inform me of how the example was improper.

We discussed a case of a seasoned experienced PH who new better but did not give a damn shooting a 2 year old lion out of a young male coalition.

Sir...the example was exactly right for the discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
My question, which has never been answered to my satisfaction, is how to stop the general population implosion of the African Lion.

First and foremost...we have to save the habitat that is still available to them. The only way to do that sir is by giving it value to the government and people. The only way to do that is through sustainable hunting. So..to save the lion (at least as a wild species)...we must save lion hunting.

I do not believe for a minute that indiscriminate, albeit legal hunting is to blame for this crisis.

Sir, statistics have shown the the "true indiscriminate hunting" HAS contributed. Where as practices adhered to by outfitters listening to science...have increased numbers or at least stabilized them.

Human-lion conflict, shrinking habitat, poaching (esp. retalitory poisoning), disease, etc all play a role. Indeed, I would say those factors kill more lions (young and old, male and female) than any legal hunting on the whole of the continent.

You are correct here sir...but hunters need to be seen as part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

So, is the call to arms to save lions or to save lion hunting?

Both as I and Aaron stated above. For without lion hunting...there is no worth to wild lions...they become vermin.

Can you do both at the same time or should just saving the lions come first?

Old post breeding males can be taken with NO consequence to the population. Select non-pride-holding younger males can be taken without consequence as well. But...2 & 3 year old males form coalitions (mini-prides of adolescent males) to feed and defend themselves against older males, hyenas, etc. They depend on each other for survival. Shooting 1 2-yr-old from a 2 to 3 lion coalition often times kills the group.

My comments in red above.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by safari-lawyer:]

I do not believe for a minute that indiscriminate, albeit legal hunting is to blame for this crisis.

Sir, statistics have shown the the "true indiscriminate hunting" HAS contributed. Where as practices adhered to by outfitters listening to science...have increased numbers or at least stabilized them.

Will - Lane's message here is dead on it its accuracy. Indiscriminate hunting can contribute to the problem, the lion in question, as a PRIME example!

Outfitters who have contributed greatly, like the ones operating in the Niassa Reserve, are prime examples of how to do it right! With scientific guidance, and their own desire to practice good lion management. In 2004, 75% of the lions shot in the Niassa were under 6 yrs of age. In 2010 that number fell to only 25%. A clear indication of outfitters who care, and according to Dr. Colleen Begg - Lion Hunting is NO LONGER a detriment to the lion, within the Niassa Reserve.

It takes outfitters/PH's to lead the way, and show the client and the industry, we are wildlife conservationists first, hunters second.

Aaron, if you have x number of lions on quota in a concession how many do you then shoot? If the number is five do you shoot five if it is three do you shoot three, etc because that is how it will be approached by operators. Five lions means five $60K hunts, three lions means three $60K hunts to the operator.

quote:

Originally posted by Proteus:
Aaron, if you have x number of lions on quota in a concession how many do you then shoot? If the number is five do you shoot five if it is three do you shoot three, etc because that is how it will be approached by operators. Five lions means five $60K hunts, three lions means three $60K hunts to the operator.

Good question! Frankly, the quota would be irrelevant, if all operators were shooting only lions of 6 yrs old or older.

But setting that aside, the number of lions on quota is only a maximum number that can be harvested. If an operator has 5 lions on quota, that does not stop him from selling 5 lion hunts at $60K, he can do that all he wants. However, he should be concerned enough about the lion/conservation to self-regulate the actual harvest. If the hunter does not see a mature/old lion, then he doesn't get one! Just because you sell or have 5 lions on quota, does not mean one MUST shoot 5 lions!

Unfortunately, Tanzania has now made it law (6 yrs old), based largely on pressure from the scientific/non-hunting community, because some of the outfitters would not regulate themselves! This is what Gerryb meant by not wanting the govt to regulate him. However, if we as hunters cannot show self restraint, others will do it for us. Others who make decisions based on little to no practical experience, or knowledge, but base their opinions/decisions on emotions rather than sound biological facts.

Aaron,

While I agree with your concept, the situation you describe is just fraught with potential abuse by the oufitter. Sell all the $60K lion hunts you can, tell most the clients the lions they are seeing are too young (don't let them shoot), keep hunting the same lion(s) multiple times and finally take the lion when it can no longer be denied the lion is old enough. What a valuable lion!

I doubt this happens very often with most of the reputable PH's, but the pressure to be sure a lion is 6+ certainly will influence the PH. The way lion hunts are priced these days (generally) means the client will almost always be inlcined to take a seemingly mature lion, even if the age can't be determined in the field. Switching to a lower base cost and higher trophy fee scenario would do more to encourage hunters to pass on immature lions than any other measure, IMHO.

Bill

I'm going to play devil's advocate.

Let's say the position of hunters and operators is this:

1. We have a plan for sustainable hunting of post mature male lions and that our plan has little or no effect on lion prides, breeding, and social structure.

2. Lion hunting is a necessary conservation tool because, absent hunting, lions will have no value, will be exterminated as vermin, poisoned, further habitat will be lost, and the lion will ultimately be extinct.

In my opinion, the flaw in all of this, AND THE POINT I WOULD MAKE IF I WAS AN ANTI is, "What are hunters and outfitters going to do to stop the poisoning, poaching, habitat loss, and the host of other problems that contribute to the plight of the lion? Perhaps, more importantly, "Why have hunters and outfitters not done it yet?" We've had lion hunting forever, and hunting, to date, has not saved the lions. Why will it now?

We will be portrayed as THE problem. We need to be ready to present ourselves as THE cure.

If our only plan is to tweak the criteria as to what constitutes a shootable lion and to maintain the status quo as to the list of other problems causing the lion population implosion, we will certainly lose this argument and we may lose lion hunting. Indeed, it may be true that hunters shooting the "right" lion is the easiest fix and one of the least serious issues actually facing the lion in 2011 and beyond. Until the lion population is stabilized, lions and lion hunting are in serious jeopardy.

Best be ready to answer the tough questions. If there are 20 problems for lions, we better have 20 answers and action plans.

quote:

In my opinion, the flaw in all of this, AND THE POINT I WOULD MAKE IF I WAS AN ANTI is, "What are hunters and outfitters going to do to stop the poisoning, poaching, habitat loss, and the host of other problems that contribute to the plight of the lion? Perhaps, more importantly, "Why have hunters and outfitters not done it yet?" We've had lion hunting forever, and hunting, to date, has not saved the lions. Why will it now?

I would reply we have. The loss of Lion in so called protected countries for example Kenya bears little comparison to the off take by hunters across Africa. A statistic that is ignored.

The so called big names in research still to date cannot advise us, the hunters, the best conservation plan. The amount of research that has been dedicated to Kenya since the 60's has been for all intents and purposes wasted.

I am from Zambia. The Kafue National Park of Zambia is one of the largest in the world and encompasses 27,000 sq km and the game and Lion populations are now a fraction of the surrounding hunting concessions. But we hunters have not hunted the Park so how are we to blame? Never have I ever seen Lion research conducted there. What I do know that if one intensively protects wildlife it will respond and the only protection that is available is currently in the managed hunting blocks. This I do know as a fact and goes for all game and not just the Lion.

The way I look at it is there are a few here who are willing to address important conservation issues for the continuation of our sport, for hunting, and if we are to deem ourselves as the cure then we need solidarity.

This thread was started by someone or other shooting a young Lion. Tough for the young Lion but we now need to encourage awareness and install structures that will enhance and fortify our industry.

quote:

In my opinion, the flaw in all of this, AND THE POINT I WOULD MAKE IF I WAS AN ANTI is, "What are hunters and outfitters going to do to stop the poisoning, poaching, habitat loss,

For one...occupy the "so-called buffer zones" aka hunting blocks giving value to the space while keepimg out human encroachment and patrolling for poachers.

and the host of other problems that contribute to the plight of the lion? Perhaps, more importantly, "Why have hunters and outfitters not done it yet?" We've had lion hunting forever, and hunting, to date, has not saved the lions. Why will it now?

Well Will...for another...we must stand up and patrol our own ranks and call a spade a spade...IE: not be tolerant of poor conservation tactics...like...the shooting of 2 year old males from small coalitions.

You witnessed what we (Aaron & I) went through just mentioning one and what really needs to happen is for us...hunters as a whole...to condemn such practices as one voice of solidarity...then we will be seen as part of the solution and NOT part of the problem.

Lane in Red.

quote:

Originally posted by llamapacker:
Aaron,

While I agree with your concept, the situation you describe is just fraught with potential abuse by the oufitter. Sell all the $60K lion hunts you can, tell most the clients the lions they are seeing are too young (don't let them shoot), keep hunting the same lion(s) multiple times and finally take the lion when it can no longer be denied the lion is old enough. What a valuable lion!

I doubt this happens very often with most of the reputable PH's, but the pressure to be sure a lion is 6+ certainly will influence the PH. The way lion hunts are priced these days (generally) means the client will almost always be inlcined to take a seemingly mature lion, even if the age can't be determined in the field. Switching to a lower base cost and higher trophy fee scenario would do more to encourage hunters to pass on immature lions than any other measure, IMHO.

Bill

Yep, outfitters need to be honest/fair when dealing with the lion hunts they sell! An outfitter should NEVER sell more lion hunts, than what they have quota for, or feel comfortable with, based on potential off-take.

Second, costs of running safaris often negate your example of cheaper daily rate and higher trophy fee, just a fact!

Third, it should never be up to the client as to whether the lion is shot or not. That call should always be made by the PH, period! Now of course, the client can choose to pass the lion for whatever reason, if the PH says he's a "shooter". But, the determination of whether or not he's a "shooter", should be solely the PH's call.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
I'm going to play devil's advocate.

Let's say the position of hunters and operators is this:

1. We have a plan for sustainable hunting of post mature male lions and that our plan has little or no effect on lion prides, breeding, and social structure.

2. Lion hunting is a necessary conservation tool because, absent hunting, lions will have no value, will be exterminated as vermin, poisoned, further habitat will be lost, and the lion will ultimately be extinct.

In my opinion, the flaw in all of this, AND THE POINT I WOULD MAKE IF I WAS AN ANTI is, "What are hunters and outfitters going to do to stop the poisoning, poaching, habitat loss, and the host of other problems that contribute to the plight of the lion? Perhaps, more importantly, "Why have hunters and outfitters not done it yet?" We've had lion hunting forever, and hunting, to date, has not saved the lions. Why will it now?

We will be portrayed as THE problem. We need to be ready to present ourselves as THE cure.

If our only plan is to tweak the criteria as to what constitutes a shootable lion and to maintain the status quo as to the list of other problems causing the lion population implosion, we will certainly lose this argument and we may lose lion hunting. Indeed, it may be true that hunters shooting the "right" lion is the easiest fix and one of the least serious issues actually facing the lion in 2011 and beyond. Until the lion population is stabilized, lions and lion hunting are in serious jeopardy.

Best be ready to answer the tough questions. If there are 20 problems for lions, we better have 20 answers and action plans.

Will - In a nutshell again. Hunting alone will NEVER stop the human encroachment/cattle/poaching, etc. Fact is, we can only slow it down, or protect selected areas (hunting blocks). Without it however, the loss of habitat/game will spread widely and rapidly, to the point of no return.

Hunting faces the same problem as science - MONEY!! We too can only protect so many places, conduct so many studies, etc. Hunters are protecting the game/land (the best they can), they are the ONLY ones doing so at the moment! If the non-hunters had been doing the same, likely the lion would be a bit better off at the moment. The argument you make on their behalf is without merit! WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING TO SAVE THE HABITAT/GAME! Kenya has made that example for us already.

We are NOT trying to keep status quo, but the elimination of lion hunting, will have the opposite effect. We have the answers, we now need cooperation of the non-hunting/scientific and hunting communities to all work together. Something that has never really happened, but the LCTF is making good progress on at the moment. Its not an over-night fix, but we are gonna try our best.

Unfortunately the Africans reproduce at a rate that cannot be controlled, they will eventually take over everywhere. Its our job to keep that progression/encroachment at bay, for as long as possible.

Will - Lane said it best! As ONE, we must stand united against the shooting of young lions and condemn our own for doing so. Its not a favorable position to be in, and one I don't like doing. But, if we are not willing to police and enforce good conservation practices, someone else will.

Like I mentioned earlier, Zambia reduced their lion quota in 2011 by 20 lions. No explanation, no scientific basis, no consultation with the resident lion expert/scientist, Dr. Paula White (Zambian Lion Project). Just poof, 20 lions gone. And a full 25% of that reduction went to one operator, the same one who shot this young lion. Coincidence, I honestly don't know? But, it seems the message was clear. Do it right, or we will do it for you. So let's all start doing it right!

I agree with Saeed's comments from April on this topic ... This was done very poorly.

I really don't see how persecuting hunters and serving them up to the world is going to save lions.

I am sorry to say but in this instance I think that the efforts being made are as likely to stop lion hunting as the actions of the Jouberts. This has clearly become a personal crusade which is dangerous to say the least.

I really urge all involved to go and examine their actions and look at what it is that you really have done.
What is the net result of your actions so far. If you have not moved forward then you have most likely gone back. i.e. you have caused more harm than good and alienated someone who you could have won round to support you.

How many people out there with the financial means to hunt lion will support you and your efforts when you stand there staring down your nose waiting to beat them over the head with the club they just bought you.

quote:

Posted 02 July 2011 14:40 Hide Post
I really don't see how persecuting hunters and serving them up to the world is going to save lions.

I am sorry to say but in this instance I think that the efforts being made are as likely to stop lion hunting as the actions of the Jouberts. This has clearly become a personal crusade which is dangerous to say the least.

I really urge all involved to go and examine their actions and look at what it is that you really have done.
What is the net result of your actions so far. If you have not moved forward then you have most likely gone back. i.e. you have caused more harm than good and alienated someone who you could have won round to support you.

How many people out there with the financial means to hunt lion will support you and your efforts when you stand there staring down your nose waiting to beat them over the head with the club they just bought you.

The supporters of ethical lion hunting do make the arguments that it supports jobs for local people, gives them an incentive not to be poachers, provides fees that go to the wildlife aurhtrity and local tribe, and that most lion killed are killed by poachers, poisoners, and snare setters. The antis are dismissive of these very valid points, calling them 'old, unsubstantiated, discedited arguments." The wildlife authorities say that they cannot do anything much about poisoning and snaring of lions. The antis agree and say 'but we can do something about sport hunting!' Sport hunting has some supporters in the scientific community, but their voices for us are undercut each time a photo of an immature lions is posted on AR or another hunting site.

Thus, the immediate problem is our credibility. We cannot convey our mesage and persuade Africqan wildlife authorities, USFWS, US Dept. of Interior, if nobody will listen to us. Also, time is short. Actions to stop lion hunting are fully underway. We have to get everyone to hunt ethically and everyone to use good sense and good taste in what they post on hunting forums. Conservation Force and LCTF have good arguments, with scientific foundation, and they make those arguments. The current brush fires within our ranks are caused by two things: (1) People, who know better, killing young lions and posting the photos, and (2) people who let their egos get in the way and, instead of changing their hunting habits, take personal offense and get furious at those who are fighting the good fight.

This is a war. We are on the side of good, not of evil. The people most dangerous to us right now are some of our own who let their self-righteousness and pride get in the way of logic and cooperation. The Joubets and other opportunists like them leave huge holes in their arguments. They can be defeated if we do not kill ourselves and leave the path open for their success.

I am a member of LCTF. I have been reading thee inflammatory posts by people who love to hunt but not enough to do it carefully. If lions are listed under the ESA, Americans lose the right to go to Africa and hunt lions. That right will never be returned to us. If American dollars disappear from African hunting operators, many of them will lose most of their profits. Uplisting of lions under CITES will have much the same effect.

This is very serious and personal egos should be shelved. Lead, follow, or get out of the way!

quote:

The worst part of this sad saga is that many hunters, who would have supported this venture. Have been put off by the manner it was presented.

Using a fellow hunter and his PH as examples, especially as they have done absolutely nothing wrong, was in extremely bad taste.

Exactly.

well, i am convinced. once i have killed 18 lions- i will refuse to shoot another one!!! it will be high time for me to step up to the plate and see to it that you guys quit killing them, regardless of age. it's a matter of principle-numbers matter and every one i don't kill will add to the census.

quote:

numbers matter and every one i don't kill will add to the census.

That is the same shit headed logic that the anti's use. The quota is the same and will be used, regardless of who is shooting the rifle.

Dean

quote:

The quota is the same and will be used, regardless of who is shooting the rifle.

perhaps I do not understand what you are saying, but from what I read that is not the case (in Tanzania, as those are the only studies I can find), 2008 saw 50% of the quota filled where the years before that was more in the 30% range.