To anyone wanting to hunt the Eastern Cape area of South Africa please be advised that Kerneels Schultz is the most despicable person I have ever dealt with. We booked a 10 day hunt for 5 animals and it was supposed to be all inclusive. The first thing that was not right was we could only hunt certain animals at each farm. The animals could not be hunted only on specific farms. The farm that you were hunting might not have any good specimins but that was where you hunted that animal. He wouldn't allow the PH to bring his tracking dogs because he said he got the same money once blood was drawn and didn't care if the animal was recovered. The Farms he hunts are heavily hunted and the game is scarse. He has a Bed and Breakfast Lodge and just rips off hunters when he gets a chance. He is much worse than the Russians!!!!!

Hawkeye47

Al,
I'm curious what his references had to say about him?

Horrible Luck! Sorry for your troubles, but I am also interested in what the references had to say prior to booking the hunt!

Al,

If you did not do your homework before the hunt then you are partly to blame. However sounds like a shambles which is a shame as other hunt reports indicate there are some fine operators in the Eastern Cape.

We booked the hunt through Butch Manasse Outdoor Adventures!
I was under the impression that the guy was on the up and up. I should have checked more thoroughly but trusted the booking agent that they were a quality hunting operation.
When you arrive what you receive is totally diffrent than what you are promised at booking. There were no contracts just a print out from the booking agent. I am not going to elaborate on all the aspects but when we settled up our bill 3 hundred dollar bills just suddenly went missing and a $500 dollar charge was added for documenting our trophies and there was no fuel in the truck that took us to P.E. and on and on!!!! It is comon knowledge that this is comon practice. He also demands that the trackers and staff tips are paid to him, which he pockets and doesn't give them to the help.

Hawkeye47

I am not saying you didn't have a bad experience. However, a fee for packing, dipping, etc is common.

Some of the game farms only have certain species. I have personally experienced this on one hunt. The driving can be a pain in the backside.

Are you saying that $300 was stolen from you?

What have these people said about your complaints?

Sorry you had a bad experience.

And, what does the booking agent say?
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
And, what does the booking agent say?
Peter

Yes, it will be interesting to hear what the booking agent says.

In the old days, a booking agent did not book hunts except with PHs he has visited and hunted with.

Nowadays we seem to have "booking agents" sprouting out of the ground like mushrooms after the rains! Half of them don't even know what a booking agent supposed to do, let alone having had any African hunting experience.

We have had some on here who became instant booking agents/experts after their first safari.

Nowadays, they're at least just as likely to be some bloody chancer just out to get a cheap hunt for themselves and who regards the odd client as a bonus as they are to be a worthwhile agent.

All you need to become an agent nowadays is a half decent internet connection and the ability to slap together a website..... and that can be done in about 2 hours.

A good agent can be very worthwhile but a not so good one, let alone a bad one can be an immense liability.

Larry,

The $500 was for filling out the paperwork on our trophies, not Dipping, packing, and shipping that was $1200 extra. As for the $300 I had 3 packs of 10 hundreds that were counted numerous times. I laid those 3 packs on the counter and counted out 6 individual hundreds. He took the stack of money down behind the computer slipped out $300 and said there was only $3300. Would you call that Stealing?

I called Butch and he was very simpathetic but I don't know if he is
still booking for Schultz. If he is I will never book with him again.

P.S. I am at my friend Al's for the Early Goose season and that's the reason I'm posting under his heading.

Hawkeye47

I'm sorry to hear about this Al. I've hunted the Eastern Cape many times and have never experienced anything like this. It's things like this that can sour a mans desire to ever go back. When you have time, give us the details. I'm sure everyone here will be keen to know as much as possible and you'll find our members do care about our community. Aside from your unfortunate woes, welcome to AR.
Regards,
David

That is not cool, sorry to hear about your bad experience, there are sooooo many dodgy characters out there though.
Should have punched him in the head!

Vans,

Had it not been for my friend Al I would still be in jail in RSA. His cooler head prevailed.

Hawkeye47

Some of these guys skins are so thick it is unfortunately the only thing they understand. Ill bet he is busy scamming the next person.....
to the Saffers on the forum, how would one go about reporting someone like this to PHASA?

I haven't checked to see if he's a member but assuming he is a member the complainant can contact them via their website at www.phasa.co.za to file a complaint.

Hawkeye47 is appears you were dealing with very dishonest person.

To those of you who insinuate that Hawkeye47 was to blame for his own problems need to get off your pedestal. It seems when a member posts a report that does not sound like a paid advertisement a few come out of the woodwork and question the poster. Hawkeye posted the results of an unsatisfactory situation. Thanks for the report.

Kerneels Schultz has gone on my list of those I will never consider for anything.

In fairness, trial by internet rarely works and perhaps an approach to PHASA might be the best first step.

I think we are all better off in the long run if even the bad reports are viewed with open minds and don't bad mouth or disregard someone who has a bad experience to report.open honest good or bad information is the only way to get the con men and dodgy a$$hole's out of our sport and our pockets

Never heard of that type of fee before, well at least that I can recall.

It pretty much takes brass balls to take the money right in front of you like that.

Sorry for your difficulties. Are you seeking any sort of compensation?

quote:

In fairness, trial by internet rarely works and perhaps an approach to PHASA might be the best first step.

So never post a negative report?

Jim,

No mate. That isn't what I meant or said but FWIW, do appreciate I might not have made myself clear enough.

Reports are good but there's always at least 2 sides to a story and perhaps a contact to PHASA might be a better FIRST step.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:Reports are good but there's always at least 2 sides to a story and perhaps a contact to PHASA might be a better FIRST step.

I kind of disagree. Sure, report it to PHASA, but I would sure like a negative report posted ASAP so others don't have to travel the same road.

I would prefer to hear about the bad apples here on AR. How does PHASA report their bad apples for the public to view/see?

I'd agree about the bad apples but take a look at pretty much every time there's been a dispute of this type and it's always turned out to be a more complicated issue than at first appears. Not only has neither side won anything but usually, both sides have lost.

For example, it wasn't that long ago that there was a dispute and it turned out both sides were in the wrong. One had (allegedly) provided an incorrectly licenced PH and the other had (allegedly) committed fraud by reporting legitimate T/Cs as stolen. Because of the trial by internet not only did the two parties concerned come out not looking too good but the same could be said of several members here.

In theory several people could have been prosecuted (and possibly even jailed) through no fault of their own but by their own admissions.

I'm not suggesting that was or was not the case here. Just that there are two sides to every story and that it's usually a better idea to first try to settle the matter amicably.

Incidentally, the guy in question is a PHASA member.

Jim,

Regarding your question: "How does PHASA report their bad apples for the public to view/see?"

Whilst I'm a long standing member of PHASA, I'm not their representative and am not authorised to speak on their behalf but (to the best of my knowledge) whenever there's been a complaint in recent years, there has been an enquiry the guilty penalised etc and the results published on the PHASA website. - I believe in their news section but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Going back to more general comments. I'd suggest the hunter(s) concerned first contact PHASA to make an official complaint and see what happens from there. Hopefully, it'll get sorted out privately to everyone's satisfaction.

In fact, I don't think I can recall a single instance where a complaint has been bought here FIRST and then a trial by internet has occurred where anything other than a ton of shit slinging has been achieved.

Equally, I don't think I can recall a single instance where a complaint that has been handled privately, usually with the help of a third party such as a PH association has not been settled appropriately.

As of moments ago G.C Scholtz of Valley Bushveld Safaris was listed as a Full Member on PHASA web site.

Have said it before, and will repeat it here now, and again in future as deemed necessary, PHASA is an organization that is there for the well-being of their members - i.e. the Professional Hunters of South Africa! Sure, they will want to her about any serious misconduct or unethical behavior of members [they would in fact rather hear of such misconduct of non-PHASA members ]. But if you lodge a complaint to PHASA, please do not be surprised to find an attitude of " .... we as PHASA stand by our member's version of the story until you as his former client can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that our member was actually guilty of any misconduct....".

PHASA is not there to look after the interests of cheated clients! The best response that you are likely to get from PHASA is one of "... we will investigate your allegations....."

Not finding anyone guilty yet, but IMHO it is about time that someone starts an organization that specifically looks after the interest of hunting clients. Yes, I hear: "The SA Government is there and the legislation about Professional Hunters and Hunting Outfitters was supposed to address this problem!" Unfortunately it doesn't quite succeed! It's time for better enforcement of existing laws - not yet another bunch of new laws that are not enforced. To illustrate what I mean I'll ask Hawkeye47 a single question: Please post the full text of the Remuneration Agreement that you and Kerneels signed before the start of the hunt. The signing of that document is most definitely a legal requirement and it will clear up if the costs that you say were added were in fact a surprise.

If you did not sign a Remuneration Agreement - Scholtz offered you an illegal hunt! Simple as that. He can, and should be, prosecuted! In such a case I'm quite sure that the relevant Eastern Cape Provincial Nature Conservation Officer will like to hear about these facts. PM me for his contact details.

To all who read this: The entering into a Hunt Contract by way of what the South African hunting regulations refer to as a "Remuneration Agreement", is without any argument whatsoever a legal requirement. Insist with any potential HO that you want to sign one before the hunt! It is not a matter of trust - it is a simple legal requirement without which you hunt illegally. Sure you as a foreign hunter is most unlikely to be prosecuted, but your HO should be!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

I've been trying to write between the lines as I often do with these things because some things are better implied than said for the protection of everyone involved....... but unfortunately, that didn't work.

So I'll be less circumspect.

The reason I tried to be diplomatic is that some things are better not said. For example, we know that many people read but don't post here and that sometimes includes at least one USF&WS representative.

To say that an American citizen has broken an overseas game law (knowingly or otherwise) MIGHT lay him open to possible prosecution (or should that be persecution ) under the Lacey Act and penalties for breach of said act are often extremely severe and can include both fines and jail time.

As I said previously, I'd strongly suggest referring the matter to PHASA in the first instance.

Whilst I appreciate they are the PH's association, they are extremely fair and there's usually a very good chance things can settled with a bit of arbitration.

Andrew,

Hope you don't see my comments as criticism. That isn't my intention. What I mean to do is point out how careful we all need to be with our comments.

PHASA owes a great deal to their former President Stewart Dorrington who made sure that all complaints are properly dealt with and I believe it was him who was largely him who came up with the investigation process etc.

Here's how it works:

If the person is not a PHASA member they have no jurisdiction over such person. The complaint will however then be forwarded to the relevant province for investigation, to the other provinces and DEAT office for their information.

If a complaint is received involving a PHASA member.

2. BY-LAW PERTAINING TO DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURES

2.1. THE LODGING AND INVESTIGATION OF COMPLAINTS:

2.1.1 Lodging of Complaints:-

Complaints may be lodged by a client of a member of PHASA, by a member of the public, by a member of PHASA, or by the Exco or a sub committee appointed by the Exco. Complaints must be lodged with PHASA within a period of two years of the incident complained of occurring.

2.1.2 Processing of Complaints:-

2.1.2.1
All complaints must be lodged in writing with the President of PHASA, the Exco, or another person designated by the Committee. All complaints must be made under oath, or, if a complainant has any objection in taking the prescribed oath, the complainant may affirm same. In the event that a complainant is not a resident of the Republic of South Africa, such complainant must comply with the requirements of his country of residence pertaining to oaths and affirmations. The Exco may also on its own accord initiate a disciplinary hearing.

2.1.2.2
Upon the receipt of a complaint by PHASA all statements, evidential material and the record of any previous criminal conviction or findings of or against the member who is the subject of the complaint (“the Respondent”) will be placed in an official case file which shall be maintained by PHASA.

2.1.2.3
The Exco shall appoint a person to investigate the complaint. Such person may be an Exco member, another member of PHASA, or a non-member. Such person shall report his findings to the Exco.

2.1.2.4
The decision of the Exco whether to prosecute or not to prosecute the member who is the subject of the complaint, shall be final. The Exco will notify both the Complainant and the Respondent in writing of its decision. It will not be obliged to give any reasons for its decision.

2.1.2.5
The Exco shall, at its discretion, have the right, pending the outcome of the investigation and/or hearing, to suspend a member of all membership privileges and rights in terms of the Constitution, and to take all reasonable steps to prevent any damage to the name and reputation of PHASA and its members.

2.1.3 The Prosecutor

2.1.3.1
In the event that a decision is taken by Exco to prosecute a member and to conduct a hearing, Exco shall appoint a Prosecutor.

2.1.3.2
The Prosecutor shall formulate a charge sheet.

2.1.3.3
The charge sheet will instruct the Respondent to appear before a Disciplinary Tribunal and will contain the date, time and venue of the hearing. Reasonable notice shall be given to the Respondent to appear before the tribunal. Every effort must be made to accommodate the parties, provided that it is not at the cost of a speedy conclusion of the hearing.

2.1.3.4
The charge sheet shall be served on the Respondent by registered mail, email or telefax.

2.1.3.5
The Respondent shall be entitled to copies of all statements and evidential material contained in the official case file. The Respondent will not be entitled to copies of the report of the Investigator to the Exco or to any confidential Exco documents, or to that portion of the minutes of the Exco where the decision to prosecute the Respondent was made.

2.1.4 The Disciplinary Tribunal

2.1.4.1
The Exco shall appoint a Disciplinary Tribunal (hereinafter referred to as the Tribunal), which shall consist of a minimum of one and a maximum of three persons. The Exco shall appoint one of the members of the Tribunal as a chairman and the chairman shall have a casting vote in the event of an equality of votes. No person so appointed may be an Exco Member, and such persons do not have to be a member of the Association.

2.1.4.2
The Tribunal will hear all cases referred to it by the Prosecutor and will have the power to issue fines and/or orders for the suspension or termination of membership of a member of PHASA who it finds guilty of a contravention of his obligations under the Constitution.

2.1.4.3
All hearings shall be conducted at PHASA’s office, unless otherwise directed by the Exco.

2.1.4.4
The proceedings before the Tribunal shall be closed.

2.1.4.5
The Chairman of the Tribunal shall determine the procedures to be followed at the hearing. Such procedures must comply with the rules of natural justice, and must be fair to all parties.

2.1.4.6
Oral evidence shall be under oath.

2.1.4.7
The strict rules of evidence shall not apply at the hearing, but the Chairman of the Tribunal will ensure that the evidence received is material and relevant to the matter at hand.

2.1.4.8
At the hearing the Complainant, the Respondent, and PHASA may be represented by an Attorney, Advocate or member of PHASA. Each party will be liable for their own costs, if any, in this regard.

2.1.4.9
All decisions of the Tribunal shall be taken by majority vote.

2.1.4.10
The hearing will be recorded and a transcript kept.

2.1.4.11
If the Complainant, the Respondent or a witness fails to attend a hearing, without justification, after the receipt of proper notice, the Tribunal may proceed with the matter in their absence, or may postpone the matter, or may deal with the matter in any manner that it deems fit.

2.1.4.12
The Chairman must, as soon as is practicable, advise all the parties and the Exco of the decision.

2.1.4.13
If the Tribunal finds that the Respondent has committed the offence complained of by the Complainant, then the Prosecutor shall draw the Tribunal’s attention to any previous findings against the Respondent. The Respondent shall be entitled to lead evidence in mitigation of sanction.

2.1.4.14
If the Tribunal finds the member guilty of the offence complained of, then the Tribunal shall have the right to:

2.1.4.14.1
terminate the member’s membership of PHASA;

2.1.4.14.2
suspend the member’s membership of PHASA for a fixed period of time; and/or

2.1.4.14.3
partially or temporarily revoke or suspend the member’s rights and privileges of membership of PHASA including access to publications and the attendance of meetings of PHASA,and, pending the outcome of a hearing, the Tribunal shall be entitled to temporarily suspend the membership of a member who has been charged with or is being investigated in respect of an alleged offence.

2.1.4.15
A Respondent shall not have a right of appeal against any findings of the Tribunal.

2.1.4.16
The Exco shall have the right in its discretion to publish a summary of the hearing and the findings of the Tribunal.

2.1.4.17
The Exco shall have the right to inform the relevant authorities of the findings of the Tribunal.

Hawkeye, thanks for posting.

quote:

In fact, I don't think I can recall a single instance where a complaint has been bought here FIRST and then a trial by internet has occurred where anything other than a ton of shit slinging has been achieved.

Steve,

I think I can recall at least two occasions where the client actually managed to get their problems solved much quicker by posting them here.

Both were in Namibia.

Saeed,

I don't recall those and I might have been away but if you say so, that's more than good enough for me.

I'm just suggesting that an attempt at going through the official channels be made first so that we don't end up with a situation such as almost happened with the Zim thing where guys were actually dropping themselves in the smelly brown stuff with their own (innocent) admissions.

That Lacey Act can be a VERY nasty thing.

Although I do have one question for Hawkeye. What's wrong with the Russians?

Hawkeye,

If you wish, you can contact PHASA or myself for a set of guidlines for filing an official complaint.

In the meantime, my advice would be not to comment on a public forum about such things as what agreements etc were signed and with whom.

That Lacey Act can be a nasty thing and the USF&WS can be even nastier.

Sincerely hope you nail the guy who tucked you up.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Saeed,

I don't recall those and I might have been away but if you say so, that's more than good enough for me.

I'm just suggesting that an attempt at going through the official channels be made first so that we don't end up with a situation such as almost happened with the Zim thing where guys were actually dropping themselves in the smelly brown stuff with their own (innocent) admissions.

That Lacey Act can be a VERY nasty thing.

Although I do have one question for Hawkeye. What's wrong with the Russians?

Very true Steve,

What I find sometimes very hard to understand is, that some of our American friends still wish to hunt with shady outfitters offering very shady hunts. And despite this being brought out in the open, they still insist on going ahead.

Also, I think posting negative reports here tend to wake up some of the outfitters - we have had some of the more well known outfitters being blamed for rather sad episodes, and that seems to have got them to clean up their acts.

I am sure it gives none of us any pleasure to hear these negative report. But, as Andrew has stated, the professional associations sometimes seem to go off on a tangent - remember te Namibians who wanted to report American hunters of what they might consider a transgression?

We never really got to the bottom of that.

Saeed,

(My comments here are not particularly directed to this situation but rather are more general)

I think one of the major problems is that an awfully high percentage of hunters shop by price rather than quality and also fail to do their research properly..... it was largely for that reason that we built www.shakariconnection.com.

It always suprises me that so many people make that same mistake. After all, virtually anyone who can afford an African safari must be reasonably successful in whatever field they work in and that means they be at least, reasonably intelligent.

I'm sure that when they're buying a product for their business or their family, they realise that quality comes at a price. For example, they would try to buy the safest car they could for their wife and kids to travel the highway and you'd think they would apply the same rule to an African safari where their lives could be on the line...... despite that. Many still buy the cheapest they can.

Another example might be that I've had many people ask about and sometimes question the cost of a charter over the years..... but not once have I ever had anyone even ask about the safety record of the charter company and I think the only person I've ever known to do a pre flight inspection is myself and the charter pilot. You'd think at least one passenger would have wanted to take a walk round to check nothing's about to fall off etc.

Ah well, it ain't gonna change and sadly, I'm sure these things will continue to happen.

You're dead right about the Namibian thing. Whoever dreamed that one up obviously didn't have two brain cells to rub together!

Saeed and Shakari,
I agree with both of your comments. I have had two unpleasant experiences with hunting in Africa. Both will end up fine and each of us will get what we committed to. I will not go into details but the over-arching situation is that I am dealing with two reputable and honest outfits. We were clear in communication and clear about expectations. In both cases, unforseen events occurred which hurt all three of us.

I have had one dealing with an outfit providing services to the trophy hunter that did not work out well. I was referred to this outfit, I checked them out and moved into a deal. I was misled and mis-informed (I will not call it a lie as I was never communicated with appropriately and professionally).I lost some money on the situation but moved ahead to another provider of that same service and actually got more than I asked for originally.

All of this to say
1.Do your homework

2. Deal with reputable and experienced people

3. Do not take the lowest priced deal, be glad to pay a little extra and get what you are
after.

4.When a "blow up" occurs, be prepared to work through it. If you can't work through it, move on. Trial by internet usually does not work.

Good luck on this mess. As you have learned, experience comes at a price and usually the only experiences you learn from are the bad ones.

quote:

What I find sometimes very hard to understand is, that some of our American friends still wish to hunt with shady outfitters offering very shady hunts. And despite this being brought out in the open, they still insist on going ahead.

That's because they are idiots Saeed, and truth be known, many are probably not that different in character from the schisters they are booking the hunts with. BTW, I don't know that your distinction should be directed strictly at "Americans".

Here's the guidlines I mentioned:

GUIDELINES :

DETAILS IN THE STATEMENT / AFFIDAVID - TO BE ADRESSED:


General Who accompanied you on your hunt?
Names and Addresses of other witnesses, in the RSA or otherwise
Other Professional Hunter involved
Other Hunting Contractors involved
Reprints of Photographs / colour copies

Advertisement Copy of brochure or advertisement
Who introduced you to the Hunter/Contractor
How did you first made contact?

Remuneration Agreement Certified Copy of the agreement
Where and when was it concluded?
Who negotiated the price / species
Arrangements-trophies received / outstanding
Payments made– to whom, accounts and amounts
Copies of checks, invoice, receipts, etc.

Hunting Trip Specify - date, time and locality
Arrival and Departure at Airport
Who received you and what happened next?
Where did you stay each night of the trip?
Were the facilities acceptable?
Who accompanied you with each hunt?
Where was each animal hunted?
Where did you hunt without success?
What rifles were used?

Fraud / Theft Proof of any fraudulent actions –
Measurements / substitutions


REMEMBER - RATHER SUPPLY TO MUCH THAN TO LITTLE

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

What I find sometimes very hard to understand is, that some of our American friends still wish to hunt with shady outfitters offering very shady hunts. And despite this being brought out in the open, they still insist on going ahead.

That's because they are idiots Saeed, and truth be known, many are probably not that different in character from the schisters they are booking the hunts with. BTW, I don't know that your distinction should be directed strictly at "Americans".

This post says much.

Tend to agree with Saeed here.

Shakari can you will follow this up?

Andrew

Like I said in a previous post, although I've been a member for something like 20 years, I don't represent or speak for PHASA.

I'm not an elected representative and consequently I have no right to follow up on it other than provide info and advice such as I've already done...... and am happy to continue to do. If Hawkeye cares to contact me by email I'll be happy to be of any help I can.

If he prefers not to contact me then that's also fine by me.

Either way, I'd advise caution about making too many public statements at this point in time.