quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Saeed,

..........It always suprises me that so many people make that same mistake. After all, virtually anyone who can afford an African safari must be reasonably successful in whatever field they work in and that means they be at least, reasonably intelligent...............

Human nature is the same for generations. We always look for bargains. The story of the monkey getting caught with its fist in a jar of nuts come to mind.....How many men have made big mistakes with the wrong woman just because she was good looking? Some guys even destroy a good marriage & family life with kids.....Humans are not rational MOST of the time. We tend to get VERY rational when we look back and when we try to justify or explain our actions, but most of our actions come out of habit and not out of rational evaluation & conscious decision making. Our behaviour is ALWAYS logical but NOT necessarily rational!

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

What I find sometimes very hard to understand is, that some of our American friends still wish to hunt with shady outfitters offering very shady hunts. And despite this being brought out in the open, they still insist on going ahead.

That's because they are idiots Saeed, and truth be known, many are probably not that different in character from the schisters they are booking the hunts with. BTW, I don't know that your distinction should be directed strictly at "Americans".

This post says much.

Jim,

My reference to American hunters purely because of the Lacey Act.

They are the only ones affected by it, and as we have seen on these forums, some still insist on taking a specific hunt despite the fact that it looks against the Lacey Act.

Shakari

I am sure that the chap has covered his butt and will operate as usual. I am not after any monetary gain. I just want to warn other hunters about such a shady operator. I am sending hunt reports to SCI, The Hunting Report and other hunting sites.
We hunted with John X last time in Africa and everything went so smooth I just assumed the Eastern Cape was all like them. I put out a feeler on AR to see if anyone had hunted with Valley Bushveld and only received one reply. I just assumed they were new and trying to get started.

Hawkeye47

Hawkeye,

Unfortunately every area and every African country has it's fair share of dodgy bastards and due diligence is always to be recommended.

You might like to take a look at this link http://www.shakariconnection.c...-research-tools.html and the links on that page when you start doing your research for your next trip. - I hope it'll be of help to you.

Whether you file a complaint with PHASA or not is entirely your business but you now have all the relevent info, including the Lacey Act info on this thread if you want to use it.

It saddens me to read reports like this about operations in the EC.

I dont know the full story but know the booking agent and am pretty confident that he was not involved and send you guys there in good faith.

There are bad apples in all the areas but 2 sides to every story. As has been mentioned contracts needed to be signed by the operator and hunter before the hunt started./This should have highlighted all the extra costs etc. to avoid all this unnecessary misunderstanding/overcharging.

Dave,

I feel that BMOA was not aware of what was going on but according to everyone that works there and all the local ranchers this is Kerneels standard procedure. The local opinion from anyone you talk with is he is a Bottom Feeder. What kind of man makes the statement that he doesn't care if a trophy is recovered once blood is drawn, because he gets paid the same reguardless.

Hawkeye47

+ 1 for reporting this to PHASA.
However, I believe it equally important to report the matter to ECGMA (East Cape Game Management Association)
Said outfitter is most likely a member of this and a more tightly-knit community than the national PHASA body.
This (if true) is an embarrassment to the Eastern Cape hunting community and I would like to see some local response too.
See http://www.ecgma.co.za/

quote:

Although I do have one question for Hawkeye. What's wrong with the Russians?

We met these two Russian sisters in a place by the airport in Port Liz.......weren't nothing at all wrong with them........

I am aware of the controversy between Bushveld Safaris.(Kerneels Schultz) and The two indivuals who use the Email address Hawkeye47. I hunted Valley Bushveld on the same dates as the 2 indivuals in question ( Al and Andy) in April 2010. Including this hunt I have booked 3 hunts with Butch at BMOA. Butch and his staff are honest and professional in their dealings and book affordable quality hunting experiences. As was the Valley Bushveld Safari in question. The lodge was a large new facility clean and well kept with a pleasant atmosphere. The food was excellent The staff was friendly and attentive. The rooms were clean and comfortable.

I had an excellent hard working PH in David Lloyd. Due to the nature of the game Mountain Reed Bock and Cape Bush The hunt required limited to moderate physical ability. While you had to work for it, the game was plentiful and of good quality. In addition I harvested Eland and Nyala, all trophy Quality. Trophy care was excellent, Kerneels fees for packing ,shipping and documentation preparation for export were fair and in line with what I was expecting. I found Kerneels to honest and fair in his dealings with me. I would recommend this hunt with out reservations.

In conversions with Andy I was under the impression that he had booked many hunts with Butch and that Andy trusted Butch and held him in high regard. I am surprised to read that he now thinks that Butch is not on the "up and up". The claim that hunters were only allowed to hunt certain farm specific animals is in conflict with the facts as I know them. My PH worked hard to get me the best specimens where ever they were located. I found that game was plentiful and of good quality

The issue of the tracking dogs is raised I believe by the substandard marksmanship skills of the 2 indivuals in question. Both of whom wounded and lost animals on the first hunting day. In what I believe can only be described as much less than challenging shot presentations. Due to intermittent rain I do not think dogs would have helped in the recovery of these unfortunate animals. In addition to his marksmanship challenges Al by his own admission was grossly over weight and out of shape Al stated that he could not walk any further than a 100 yards from the truck. I believe that Al's PH worked hard to compensate for this shortcomings. It is common practice for staff tips to be paid to the outfitter. I know of no evidence to the claims that Kerneels pocketed the tips as claimed. If he did he would not have a staff for very long.

In summary It is my opinion that the two individuals involved would have had a better safari experience if they were in better physical condition and had taken the time to develop adequate shooting skills.I like them both and I am sorry that they had a bad safari experience . Andy is a very entertaining guy and I enjoyed hearing his exploits as a experienced world hunter skilled rifle shot and dauntless ladies man, every single night.

Well well well that's a pretty straight forward and honest appraisal Shotgun46 for your first post. Welcome aboard.

As they say, "there are always two sides to the story". Thanks to Shotgun46 for providing the other.

It'd be interesting if Saeed or a mod would check the ISP for Shotgun46 to see if it's from South Africa. It seems very ironic that he'd appear so suddenly to post in this thread disputing the 'stated facts'.

I know that there is ALWAYS 3 sides to every story, #1 your side, #2 my side and #3 the right side. I don't have a dog in this fight , just curious..

Mike check it out your self Shotgun46@comcast.net Chico California

LOL, I don't have a clue how to do that. You do have to admit that your sudden appearance here and on this thread is a touch ironic though.
There have been others poseing as somone that they are not. It made me wonder.

Edit; Nothing personal Shotgun46, I just like to "trust but verify".

I gave the Email go to properties open it up You do not sound like you are impartial and have your mind made up. You could always Email me. PS I fished out of Anchor Point this summer with Mike Sizelove

No! Like I said earlier I have no dog in this fight.

The admins or mods can see the ISP that you're posting from. If it's California.. fine. But it could have been posted from Timbucktoo also.
You've got to admit that your sudden appearance here about this thread is a strange happenstance.

you usually have to be a party to getting screwed on a hunt in Africa. This said, you were likely not well informed.

Rich
DRSS

If I may:

1. always get it in writing
2. never show cash money off
3. never let other people play with your money

There would have been a simple way to "fix" this on Day One. When the deal started to go south you should have looked the PH in the eye and said "here is the New Deal", if I don't see trophy animals when and where I want to hunt, I am not (excuse my language) giving you one Mother F--king Dime! Are we clear?

The 21st Century Golden Rule update: those who have the gold make the rules.

This outfit could not have screwed you without your (active)participation. Keep the $$$ in your pocket until YOU are happy.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
It'd be interesting if Saeed or a mod would check the ISP for Shotgun46 to see if it's from South Africa. It seems very ironic that he'd appear so suddenly to post in this thread disputing the 'stated facts'.

I know that there is ALWAYS 3 sides to every story, #1 your side, #2 my side and #3 the right side. I don't have a dog in this fight , just curious..

He is logging in from the US.

Thank You Saeed!

told you so

Trust but verify Bubba!
Now would you care to explain how you just happened to start posting suddenly?

I've met and dealt with enough people that I can see both stories have a possibility. Your's is starting to have some creedance.

shotgun 46,

Where in any post did I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT butch other than I didn't think he was at fault.
There was no issue with my animal other than the
rain washed the blood away a nd we lost the bull in a group of others. The other animal was wounded on day 3 or 4 not day 1. The 3 PH's we hunted with were excellent. I would hunt with anyone of them as long as Kerneels wasn't involved. As far as my bullshitting around the fre at night the conversation was not with you so was not your affair. I can see where you might be offended by someone talking about women so I wont go there but as for the part about me not being in shape is Bull. I can hunt your FAT ASS off any day.

Hawkeye47

Looks like shotgun joined in may so its not like he just showed up out of the blue.

Also

The man never made personal attacks on you the man just stated what he saw usually when it results in name calling

I can hunt your FAT ASS any day.

Its tends to tip the sale out of your corner

this is a surprize for me cause i know kerneel and hunted with him 2ice and each time he was a gentleman and man of his words,there must b some miss understanding im sure,other wise i think he has always provided what he said and i know many ppl who have hunted with kerneel.

Express,

I don't know why shotgun 46 is trying to get this topic off track but conditioning had nothing to do with Kerneels Schultz being the
bottom feeder that he is. My friend Al has a bad foot and I was recovering from some medical issues but I hunted hard coming in after dark every night. We just saw very little game and wasn't allowed to shoot most of what we saw. I did take a magnificient Nyala but only after saying I would go home with nothing rather than a small one. The next day I was taken where there were good Nyala.

al told the PH's about an incident with a massage girl in Mongolia and they gave me ad time every night after dinner. I did not push the subject and in no way intended to come across as a ladys man. I don't know what Jim's reasoning is for his remarks but I stand behind what I have said

Hawkeye47

My name is Butch Manasse and I operate Butch Manasse Outdoor Adventures and Safaris Worldwide, (www.worldwide-hunts.com and also www.thesfaridesk.com). I have been in business for 12 years as a full time booking agent. Prior to that I was a trial attorney for 27 years before retiring to chase my true passion of hunting. I have hunted extensively worldwide.

I read the Hawkeye 47 comments with a heavy heart. I agonized over responding, since these kind of trials in a public forum are pretty much a name calling gig, and accomplish little. They end of mean spirited and serve no use.

However, I had a Doctor who is a long time client and who fortuitously was at the identical camp at the identical time as Hawkeye47. I asked my Doctor client (if someone is interested I will put you in touch with him if he will allow that). Here is THAT clients UNDEDITED view of what TRULY transpired at Kerneels:

To Whom It may concern


I am aware of the controversy between Bushveld Safaris.(Kerneels Schultz) and The two indivuals who use the Email address Hawkeye47. I hunted Valley Bushveld on the same dates as the 2 indivuals in question ( Al and Andy) in April 2010.

Including this hunt I have booked 3 hunts with Butch at BMOA. Butch and his staff are honest and professional in their dealings and book affordable quality hunting experiences. As was the Valley Bushveld Safari in question. The lodge was a large new facility clean and well kept with a pleasant atmosphere. The food was excellent The staff was friendly and attentive. The rooms were clean and comfortable.

I had an excellent hard working PH in David Lloyd. Due to the nature of the game Mountain Reed Bock and Cape Bush The hunt required limited to moderate physical ability. While you had to work for it, the game was plentiful and of good quality. In addition I harvested Eland and Nyala, all trophy Quality. Trophy care was excellent, Kerneels fees for packing ,shipping and documentation preparation for export were fair and in line with what I was expecting. I found Kerneels to honest and fair in his dealings with me. I would recommend this hunt with out reservations.

In conversions with Andy I was under the impression that he had booked many hunts with Butch and that Andy trusted Butch and held him in high regard. I am surprised to read that he now thinks that Butch is not on the "up and up". The claim that hunters were only allowed to hunt certain farm specific animals is in conflict with the facts as I know them. My PH worked hard to get me the best specimens where ever they were located. I found that game was plentiful and of good quality

The issue of the tracking dogs is raised I believe by the substandard marksmanship skills of the 2 indivuals in question. Both of whom wounded and lost animals on the first hunting day. In what I believe can only be described as much less than challenging shot presentations. Due to intermittent rain I do not think dogs would have helped in the recovery of these unfortunate animals. In addition to his marksmanship challenges Al by his own admission was grossly over weight and out of shape Al stated that he could not walk any further than a 100 yards from the truck. I believe that Al's PH worked hard to compensate for this shortcomings. It is common practice for staff tips to be paid to the outfitter. I know of no evidence to the claims that Kerneels pocketed the tips as claimed. If he did he would not have a staff for very long.

In summary It is my opinion that the two indivuals involved would have had a better safari experience if they were in better physical condition and had taken the time to develop adequate shooting skills.I like them both and I am sorry that they had a bad safari experience . Andy is a very entertaining guy and I enjoyed hearing his exploits as a experienced world hunter skilled rifle shot and dauntless ladies man, every single night.
Doc

Buthc here again- I could probably go on for several pages on the pre hunt problems including cancelling the safari, resurrecting the safari, modifying the safari, severe helath problems, extreme efforts to help my clients salvage their deposits - the list of my pre-hunt efforts is a long one. I am truly surprised at the pot shot taken at my professional standing by a client I know and like. Enough said on a very sad subject.Butch

Butch, The link to your website doesn't work.

After receiving Butch Manasse's e-mail today I realized that I had worded a post here in a way that could be taken as a criticism of him.

Iwas asked who I booked the hunt with. I stated BMOA. When I made the statement about being on the up and up I was speaking of Schultz. Later I again posted that I believed Butch to be inocent of anything will shed new light on this.
I have never bashed Butch and appreciate how he has helped me in several ways. Especially assureing my wife all was well when we were in africa. It was never my intent to cause Butch any grief.I would not hesitate to book with him in the future.

Hawkeye47

Ok i read what you said butch but funny thing is you took excerts from shotguns post and laid claim to them like theyre your own now it does seem that not only is hawkeye maybe haveing some truth glimmer through but shotgun is butch

quote:

Originally posted by Hawkeye47:
Express,

I don't know why shotgun 46 is trying to get this topic off track but conditioning had nothing to do with Kerneels Schultz being the
bottom feeder that he is. My friend Al has a bad foot and I was recovering from some medical issues but I hunted hard coming in after dark every night. We just saw very little game and wasn't allowed to shoot most of what we saw. I did take a magnificient Nyala but only after saying I would go home with nothing rather than a small one. The next day I was taken where there were good Nyala.

al told the PH's about an incident with a massage girl in Mongolia and they gave me ad time every night after dinner. I did not push the subject and in no way intended to come across as a ladys man. I don't know what Jim's reasoning is for his remarks but I stand behind what I have said

Hawkeye47

Dear Andy
Regarding your post about Al's incident with a Mongolian massage girl. I would urge you to have Al and all of his sexual partners (male or female) get a complete battery of testing for STDs and AIDS. STD are epidemic in that part of the world. If he cannot afford it the health department will provide this service.

Thank you for your service and a well written review

Boy this is really hotting up.
Pictures speak a thousand words - let them be posted.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

+1

quote:

Prior to that I was a trial attorney for 27 years before retiring to chase my true passion of hunting.

This quote brings clarity to the table and really says it all.

DAMN!! Glad I already got all the unique species East Cape has to offer!
Interesting that none of the EC's unique species seem to be involved...

Hello members,

I have been hunting big game most of my adult life. I live in the mountains of New Mexico where elk, black bear, cougar, mule deer & antelope are quite abundant. I generally hunt with muzzle loader or rifle.

In 2003 a friend had booked a hunt in South Africa for two hunters and the other guy had to cancel due to family problems. I agreed to take the spot as a favor to my friend. I only agreed because I knew that my friend was a little "anal" when it came to researching the outfitters and suppliers that he is going to spend his money with. He has hunted all over the world and his house looks like some sort of wildlife museum.

The only thing that I was concerned about was the type of hunting we were going to be doing. I am a "spot and stalk" hunter. I don't hunt from blinds, over bait or at waterholes. If I want to shoot "sitting ducks" I'll call the local zoo and see if they have any elderly animals that need to be put down. Some of the hunts I see on the outdoor channels where the animals are just watering during the heat of the day or feeding on huge bait cans make me ill. My friend assured me that our hunt would be "fair chase", so I agreed.

This was 2003 and the hunt was booked with Valley Bushveld Safaris. We had booked a ten day package for eight animals. My wife went along as an observer. Before she agreed to tag along, I had several conversations with Kerneels about whether or not there would be enough activities in the area to keep her entertained and he assured me that there would be plenty for her to do.

The whole trip turned out to be a WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE. The lodge was terrific. Kerneels and his staff made sure the wife and I had a private bath and anything else we required. The food was absolutely wonderful! We both gained weight on the trip. The staff were friendly and helpful. Visiting with the Kerneels, his wife Vanessa, the PH's and the other hunters each evening were very interesting and entertaining.

Vanessa and Kerneels arranged for my wife to go horseback riding, visit Addo Elephant Park, a large cat Sanctuary, shopping trips and she even got to shoot a Common Blesbuck as part of her trip. She had a great time thanks to their extra effort.

Now to the hunt. It was everything I had wanted it to be. Every animal was a spot and stalk situation. It required a lot of walking. Sometimes a LOT of walking! I think I covered an entire 25,000 acre concession trying to get an ethical shot at my Black Springbuck. As I recall, we only hunted a total of three different areas to get all of our animals. I didn't mind the road trips at all as I am a tourist at heart and enjoy every opportunity to visit the local areas. Also, I am intelligent enough to realize that no single concession can possibly provide adequate hunting opportunities for all of the 30 plus species that are available in South Africa.
As I said before my wife got a really nice Common Blesbuck. I got a Bushbuck, Gemsbuck, Red Heartabeast, Impala, White Blesbuck, Blue wildabeast, and a Zebra stalion. All were very, very nice animals. The only disappointment was that I wounded a really nice Kudu, but I am man enough to admit that it was my fault! I should have never taken the shot, but I got caught up in the excitement of seeing such a magnificent animal. Here we call it "buck fever". The PH and the trackers spent hours tracking him. They even brought in dogs to help, but it rained and we lost the trail. I really hate wounding animals, but sometimes it just happens.

Now to the cost and payment. All of our price negotiations were based on Kerneels' web site, emails between he and my friend and numerous telephone conversations. I don't have anything against booking agents, but I always deal directly with the outfitters. I have found that accurate communication is one of the most difficult tasks to perform in any activity. The more people involved in the dealings the more opportunity there is for miss communication, misunderstanding, errors and hard feelings. The total costs that we had agreed to prior to the trip were what Kerneels asked me to pay when the hunt was over. The only additions were for the Zebra that I decided to add to my package during the hunt. I was not surprised that I had to pay for the lost Kudu that was part of my package. The website made that perfectly clear, and like I said it was MY fault.

Since my wife and I had scheduled a cross country horseback ride on the Eastern Coast of South Africa immediately after our hunt, we had an extra day to kill after the hunt. Vanessa and Kerneels offered to let us spend that day and night at their home in Port Elizabeth with their family. We had a wonderful time with them and their children.

As I said before, everything about the trip far exceeded my original expectations!

So much so, when I decided to give myself another African hunt for my 65th birthday this year I immediately got in touch with Kerneels to see what we could work out. Another reason for this, was he knew how badly I wanted a Kudu to add to my trophy room since we lost the one on the last hunt. Since it had been over seven years since my last African hunt I still did a lot of research on other outfitters and current prices. My research indicated that Valley Bushveld Safaris was still the best bang for the buck. I booked a hunt for the end of April 2010.

This time I only wanted two specific animals. A trophy Kudu and a Nyala. I found out that Kerneels had built a new lodge since my last visit and that he and his family actually live on the property. Kerneels and I worked out a very fair price for my specific hunt and we made the deal. The new lodge is absolutely wonderful! All new and fresh and set in beautiful surroundings. Vanessa has taken over the kitchen duties and the food is unbelievable! We had some type of game as the main course every night and it was always prepared to perfection. Even Kerneels did some of the cooking on the beautiful outdoor grill!

Fortunately I had great weather for the entire hunt. The Kudu hunt was in a very beautiful area. We saw lots of different game, but I was only after two species. We even saw giraffe and rhino. Spot and stalk meant lots of walking and climbing, but worth every strained muscle.
I got a really nice Kudu! We were quite lucky with the Nyala hunt. We spotted a nice bull almost immediately after arriving at the concession. Unfortunately he took off before I could manage a shot. We spotted him again about 30 minutes later across a valley and I made a nice 250 plus yard shot. The Trackers that helped us on both animals were great. Very friendly and worked very hard getting my animals back to the skinning shed, especially the Kudu. He was big, heavy and fell in a very steep thick covered mountain side.

Since I had a few days left, I decided to see if I could add a REALLY big Kudu to my trip. We saw lots of Kudu, but nothing really stood out as a real trophy. I did get a really big Wart Hog on the last day just because I had never shot one and we had seen hundreds during the last few days.

All in all, another great hunt with a Class A operation! First class lodging, gourmet meals and top notch staff! Everyone went out of their way to make sure that my trip and my hunt were as perfect as possible and I can highly recommend Valley Bushveld Safaris to anyone interested in a quality hunt at a fair price.

None of the extensive research that me and my friend did prior to our 2003 hunt or the research prior to my hunt this year uncovered any negative publicity about Valley Bushveld Safaris, Kerneels Scholtz or any of his staff.

My only connection to Valley Bushveld Safaris or Kerneels Scholtz is as a very satisfied client and my only reason for this somewhat lengthy support letter is to let people know that the negative comments made by the two dissatisfied individuals should be weighed against the comments of people with positive experiences before the business is crucified by the internet jury.

Thanks for you time and good hunting to all,

Ron A.
575/258-3947

P.S. Yes I posted this on both strings, because I feel it is important!

WWLODGE, I hope you realise that by posting your good experience, you have spoiled it for the internet hunters who like a trial by forum
Wouldn`t it be a good idea to post AFTER the situation has been resolved? just my opinion, would save someones reputation being trashed, when, as in this case theres definetly 2 sides to the story.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN,

This post of lies and distortion of the little bits of truth are exactly what I expected from Schultz. Anyone can see what he is trying to do here. I will not coment any further on him. His actions will prove what has been said.

Hawkeye47

As a longtime user of eBay I've reviewed the feedback of many sellers of different items. Feedback is essentially "trial by forum." The interesting thing is that many have several thousand transactions with only a couple of negative feedback entries while others will have ten or fifteen. I learned from experience that even a few, percentage wise, bad feedbacks were quite significant.

I love this web site because of all the information it provides and I like "trial by forum" because it gives me the opportunity to add to my "DON'T USE" list so I don't have to have the bad experience others have had.

Just about every day I work, I get to deal with liars so, after quite a few years, I've gotten to know when a story rings true and when it doesn't.

My list is now longer.