Which side you guys choose to stand on -- be it for Jules or JD -- doesn't mean anything to me. But I will interject this much: No matter what the circumstances were leading up to the e-mail, a business professional simply should never handle a situation like JD did. JD knows he doesn't need Jules' business, but what JD did may have hurt his credibility to the tune of more than just one customer.

Jules, there are plenty of fish in the TC barrel-making sea, and I'm sure you'll find some who are actually grateful for your business and who won't rant with accusations and allegations. Heck, you've already found 'em....

I never said Jules should kiss his ass . Some one started this for a reason. What that is, only one person knows. Some one is trying to stir up trouble and doing a good job of it. I would call just to see if it could all be straightened out. I don't see where anyone wins as it is. Lone Hunter

Jules

From your post on 8/11:

"I was also thinking of a 40-44 from Van Horn in the 9 incher but I don't know if SSK will sell me the dies without doing the chamber work. Some say that JD is funny about doing that."

From your post on 8/14:

"The only place I can get the dies is from SSK and i'm not sure if Jones will sell me the dies without buying the barrel from them. But i'm gonna try. If I can get them I can send you a sized case for you (Van Horn) to cut the chamber."

From your post today:

"I wrote SSK the other day saying that I was going to buy a 40x44 barrel from someone that said it came from them. I asked if they would sell me a set of dies for this caliber and they said yes."

Like I wrote earlier, I don't know everything that happened and I'm certainly NOT judging you, but just looking at these posts, I can see why JD thinks you tried to deceive him....... not saying you did....but it does look that way.

[ 08-22-2002, 06:52: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

Guys

JD has only ever been a gentleman and a great help to me in advice and product. As for the product...amazing I must say. I have 3 barrels from him from scratch and one full gun from him. Yes he may be more than the comp. but his stuff is truly awesome. Not to say the others aren't but we all have our "favorites." I know this may not be "on topic" but want to give my 2 cents. Seems there are some definitive camps here that go beyond the objective.

Hey guys, Guess I might as well weigh in here, as well. First, no one except Jules and JD really know what went on w/ their communications. The review of the earlier posts from this site suggested Jules might get the barrel from Van Horn or possibly SSK. On the other hand, Jules correspondance to JD also suggests he may be getting a used barrel, I'd presume one from SSK or rechambered by SSK. Again, none of us really know what transpired. If Jules had intentions all along to get a non-SSK barrel from a different custom barrel maker while telling JD he was getting a used SSK barrel from someone else, that would be deceitful. (Yes, it makes no difference monitarily to JD, but emotionally it does--see comments to follow.) On the other hand, there's no way any of us can know those details from what we have to work w/ thus far so I'm not going to worry about it. Is SSK's work top-notch? You bet. Is JD a wealth of handgun hunting experience and information? A very emphatic, "Yes." In this instance, did JD overreact? I think so. But, his reaction does not surprise me from my experience. You have to realize JD is VERY protective of his proprietary rounds. Did he "invent" the JDJ series of cartridges? I don't really know that, but I do know he thinks he has labeled them w/ his name. He views the "Whisper" series as his also, and I'm sure the "Woodswalker" series, as well. Last summer I bought a 300/221 (AKA "300 Whisper") barrel from VVCG during their "Super Shorty Sale." I called SSK to order "300 Whisper" dies and brass. He asked where I bought the barrel from and I told him. He became rather upset, to say the least. I didn't agree w/ him, but I understood him. It's only my opinion, but I think a lot of these issues deal w/ who has "ownership" of a round. As shooters, we're used to a round being "owned" by the community of shooters (SSK and everyone else chambers Contender barrels in the 7X30 Waters, for example.); on the other hand, JD believes he is the "owner" of the rounds he has developed, including the "Woodswalker" series and reserves the "rights" to the rounds (in fact, believe he has "trademark rights" on the Whisper series and possibly others). It's not unlike recent developments in medicine where you have Doctors "inventing" a surgical procedure and trying to patent it; historically, when a surgeon "invented" a better procedure, he freely shared it w/ his colleagues in an effort to better advance medicine and patient care. I don't normally turn away business either, but in JD's case, I'm sure his business is well enough established and succesfull that it didn't bother him to turn away a deal for some dies. Should JD have handled this in a more diplomatic way? I think so, but he didn't. Did someone stir the pot w/ him? I bet so.... (I wonder if someone associated w/ him routinely watches some of the more popular internet forums to have a feel for what's going on?) Jules, I hate this happened w/ your 40/44 project as I could tell from the posts how excited you were about it. If you keep the barrel, it may be a long time before you have unhappy feelings about it when you pick it up.... Sorry to ramble for so long. Gary T.

Mark, Fair question. From the "Hornady Handbook, 5th Ed.," it says this in the first paragraph describing the 309 JDJ: "...The 309 JDJ is another in his (JD Jones') SSK Industries series of proprietary cartridges. 'Proprietary' here means that Jones has maintained control over reamers developed to chamber these cartidges and neither sells, permits, nor licenses others to do so on their behalf." In my discussion w/ him about the "300 Whisper" (AKA 300/221), it sounded like he gave permission for T/C to chamber factory barrels in "300 Whisper." I believe JD also retains control over the dies for his various rounds. For example, "300 Whisper" dies are available only from SSK Industries; on the other hand, 300/221 dies are available from directly from Redding and Redding dealers. 375 JDJ dies are also only available from SSK, although 375X444 Marlin dies are available from CH4 and possibly others. But, that's another can of worms. Does "proprietary" really mean anything in the real world? I doubt it as evidenced by the 300/221 vs 300 Whisper and 375 JDJ vs 375X444 Marlin examples. Does the developer of a round, such as JD w/ any of his series of cartridges, have a patent on the rounds? I don't know. This whole area of what's "mine" and what's "everyones" is rather murky to me. In the same Hornady manual, in the description of the "300 Whisper" it has the TM (trademark) sign by the cartridge name. In quickly thumbing through the manual, I don't see any other cartridges listed w/ a TM. There, have I muddied the water enough?

Now hold the danged phone a minute, Alice.

Who claims to have originated ALL of the JDJ calibers, yet the main original ones came from P.O. Ackley's Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders and the work done largely by Warren Page?

Who is the liar?

Who is the crook?

And who is the fool?

You know, I would not do business with a liar, crook, or fool myself if I could help it.

Doesn't sound to me like the way to win friends and influence people, either..... at least the ones paying for my safaris.

I'd say let him sit on his size die and twirl.

My two pfennig's worth.

Mike

And all this stuff about proprietary cartridges is pure bull anyway.

No, you cannot patent a cartridge.

You can copyright a cartridge NAME, only.

The idea of trying to corner, control, monopolize the sale of loading dies or reamer for any cartridge should never have been tolerated by the shooting fraternity in the first place, in my opinion.

Until Jones pulled that shot with RCBS and Clymer, the first indications I had of it, I had never heard of anyone in the industry doing such a thing. I blame RCBS and Clymer, as well as the others that followed suit, for ALLOWING it to happen.

So far as I can see in all these years, only by closed deal or intimidation rather than legal standing has this taken place. I have never seen a legal precedent for it, NOR could I ever get Blount Industries' attorney to ever respond to my letters and phone calls about it. It was not for discussion.

For quite a few years RCBS sold dies marked .375 JDJ.... I know. I used to buy them all the time via Huntington's, and there very well may be folks here who bought them from me.

We can sell to whomever we want to, and whether Jules jerked JD's chain or not is beside the point. Jules should not, in my opinion, have been forced to resort to the tactic he did just to be able to buy a damned set of dies. It is absurd.

Now, if I asked to buy something from JD, which I never will again to be sure, I would understand his refusal to sell to me just because he does not like me and threatened to sue me and others I know. But what is the big deal about selling a set of dies to someone.... other than restraint of trade?

But no one has the cahonies to pursue it, so you get what you get.

Mike

To All,

I would agree that JD did A LOT of work in promoting the cartridges he chambers for etc. JD has done a lot over the years that has helped promote our sport and add to it, and for that he deserves credit. Please note that I do not dispute this at all.

What I am saying is that if we believe he has proprietary "rights" to all the cartridges that he has named and chambers for, to be consistent, the same could and should then be said of P.O. Akley (debatably the ultimate father of many of the "Jones" cartridges), Wes Ugalde, etc etc. This analogy establishes that these men did a lot of work in their respective areas, but unfortunately it does not establish legal definitions of copywrite, proprietorship etc for them or for JD regarding the measurable case dimensions.

Not to be too picky, but I also believe that we risk of potentially committing errors of Causal fallacies here, specifically the fallacy of Wrong Direction - where the direction between cause and effect is reversed. In this case it is to state that because JD promoted the 300 so heavily, that therefore he has the rights of sole proprietorship over all aspects of case dimension *in addition* to the copywrited name Whisper (which I do not dispute his rights to the name).

Hey, I could take a relatively unknown wildcat and promote it heavily too, but that does not DE Facto give me exclusive rights to More than what I choose to call it if I chose to copywrite the name, to be extending to all the dimensions etc. This is what needs to be proven to be true, and recent evidence (further down below) militates heavily against reaching such a conlcusion.

For example, Wes Ugalde did the same type of developement and promotion (sans a desire to control reamers and dies etc) with his 25 Ugalde (later the 7mmTCU). Now, how many folks currently rechamber for this round by name? May Wes or his survived family now come back and demand royalties or the rights to license only select individuals to cut chambers for the round because Wes was the developer and originator of it? That is the question I'd like to see consistently answered, and consistently applied, as if it is true in JD's case, then it necessarily follows that it must be true in all other identical cases >pun intended<

Also, what about the 22-250? Did Remington pay Harvey Donaldson, Grosvenor Wotkyns, J.E. Gebby, J.B. Smith, John Sweany and Harvey Lovell royalties for their pioneer work in the field? When you pay a Smith to rechamber to a .223 WINCHESTER, does Winchester get a cut? If so and we simply rename it the 5.56 Whatever, does Winchester still get a cut because the case happens to be the same dimensions? If we are to carry this conversation out logically and consistently (and I do NOT claim to have all the answers needed) then all these issues need to be addressed.

IMPORTANT TO THE POINT, and also just an interesting FYI I sent Mike awhile back concerning "proprietary" stuff in the gun industry:

The Racer U.S. distric Idaho court dissmissed a lawsuit brought by Buffalo Bore Ammunition against Hornady, for Hornady's producing 475 Linebaugh ammunition by shape and by name.

Among the rulings regarding dimensions of a product was this statement by the Racer U.S. distric Idaho court:

"All the **claimed** trade secrets claimed by Plaintiffs are dimensions of their product and are clearly measurable by anyone who obtains their product in the stream of commerce."

Buffalo Bore Ammunition lost this case.

INTERESTING application when taken into consideration of chambering for the JDJ "Proprietary" cartridges, yes?

Still would not want to be bogged down in an expensive case defending the concept, but this seems to vindicate the practice of cutting reamers for and chambering for ANY existing cartridges. Now J.D may of course copywrite the NAME of these cartridges, but I do not believe he has legal basis to the dimensions and measurable qualities of them, and this case ruling of the U.S. district court also seems to support my thoughts. So I say Bellm, VVCG, etc etc can keep on producing 300/221's and 375/444's etc all the day long, so long as they do not use his copywrited name for them.

BTW To see this ruling yourself, go to this website, search under Party Name, and type in "Linebaugh" with a capital L.

http://www.id.uscourts.gov/wconnect/wc.dll?usdc_racer~main~PUID=RESTRICTED

[ 08-22-2002, 13:26: Message edited by: Sean HHI #7364 ]

I'm over it guys. Judge me as you will. I really don't give a rats ass.
We can move on to other topics now.

Yeah let it die since JD is not here to tell his side of the story. There is just one man here telling his. This should have been between JD and Jules only. Maybe the next time Jules and his wife have an argument he will turn to this forum for comfort. We all need a shoulder to cry on and the Good Lord knows I've cried on many myself.
Lets all have a good day and give the benefit of doubt to both men who I am sure could have worked it out among themselves if so inclined.

I disagree. I feel that as a business person you should always act the professional that you are. You never lower yourself to anyone who may seem deceitful. I for one am interested in how business' treat people. I've personally dealt with Mr. Jones and I have to be honest, I was not impressed with his demeanor. I think his products are first rate, but he definately needs to work on his people skills.

But Mark, the question still remains why Jules should have felt compelled to stretch the truth in the first place just so he could buy a set of dies?

I know you had a favorable encounter with JD, and that is great. He hasn't threatened to sue you in writing, for example, for doing what is customary in the trade like he has me. If he had, then perhaps your position might be different.

There are darned few people in this world who will tell it like it is even when it backfires on them or reflects on them in a light other than what they would like.

While one of my mottos is "If the truth isn't good enough, what is?" I can hardly take serious exception with Jules', if you will, fighting fire with fire. I can't say I like it, but can't blame him either.

NEITHER party has "clean hands." That is the main point. And for JD to call Jules a liar, given the actual substance of the matter, I feel the greater culpability lies with JD. What harm has Jules done?

JD on the other hand has done his level best to restrain what has always been customary among custom gunsmiths, that being the "public domain" nature of reamers and loading dies, which is as it should be, I believe. To do otherwise, especially after taking the concepts behind the rounds from others and then calling it his own, is self-serving only. What about our fellow shooters? Does only one man count and the rest of us don't?

Mike

And Sean, thanks a bunch for your constructive input. If there were more facts out there in the open, perhaps, just perhaps there would be enough intelligent life in the first place to keep such practices as this proprietary b.s. from having a chance to take hold.

I did all I could at the time butting heads with RCBS/Blount and Clymer trying to nip it in the bud, but got nowhere. What did the rest of you do?

You did nothing, and now you have to live with the injustice of it, like it or not.

The alternative is to have the dies custom made, at an exorbitant price at least double what it should be, then have them marked with a different nomenclature.

Mike

Mike

I assume your post was addressed to me???

My favorable meeting with JD hasn't led me to hero worship as you seem to suggest.....however, unlike you, I have no axe to grind with him either. I do own several SSK barrels, but all were bought used......

I might have missed it, but I never saw any post referring to a used rechambered barrel until yesterday.....did Jules really have a line on a used barrel in 40-44......I don't know.......but I think it's evident, from reading Jules posts, that he intended to buy the dies from JD and then have Van Horn make the barrel......and, knowing how JD is about selling dies, it appears that Jules led JD to believe that he was buying a used SSK rechambered barrel so JD would sell him the dies........

IF that is the case.....then I'd say Jules tried to deceive JD and I can see why JD would think he had been lied to.....that is all I'm saying!

I never said Jules lied to JD......never said JD should or shouldn't sell Jules the dies....... never said one word about JD's "proprietary" cartridges.....never said JD handled the matter correctly.......never said ANYTHING like that!

I don't consider the situation of JD selling or not selling dies justification for lying or what you would call "fighting fire with fire". That's just not the way I think........

Jules may be completely innocent in the matter? However, as I tried to point out in my earlier post, what Jules has posted here sure makes it appear like he tried to pull one over on JD....

Not saying he did or didn't, just saying it looks that way........

By the way.....Jules is the person who decided to make this public......not JD.....

[ 08-22-2002, 22:26: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

This place has more drama than the WWF

Mike Bellm vs. Graybeard
Mike Bellm vs. Craig Forshee
Jules vs. JD Jones
Buckweet vs. Virgin Valley

Ya it would seem that whom ever set this ball going got the effect they wanted

To cause discontent among us fellow shooters

So who really wins??

Heck, I never seen so many posts come up this quick. I just posted what I was told by Jones. No one had to answer it and I never said his work was not of quality. I didn't post it to pass judgement on Jones or myself. I posted it to let ya'll know that someone is reading every post on this forum and will use it to start shit whenever they can.
All I asked was>>>How do you think this came about?>>>Meaning....Who do you think told him to read this forum.
Lies, crooks, deceitful? I would think that only one person was worried about that, and that was the person that contacted Jones. And that person is a Pussy.

To All:
When Jules ordered the dies, there should have not been a question as to what he was going to do with them or where the barrel came from. When you buy a product does the seller ask you what you were going to do with it and make judgement as to whether he is going to sell it to you on that basis? This is unheard of in the business world. I guess except for SSK. A person in a NORMAL business does not do that. He is happy to make the sale. I guess SSK is not a NORMAL business.

Outback

I'm with KTS. We should be pissed off at whoever thought it was their business to "rat out" Jules in the first place. They got exactly what they wanted, and you all are letting them.

Originally posted by Rob....Quote...
" I'm with KTS. We should be pissed off at whoever thought it was their business to "rat out" Jules in the first place. They got exactly what they wanted, and you all are letting them. "
EXACTLY !!!!! Nuff said
Rick

[ 08-23-2002, 01:51: Message edited by: cricker ]

All I know is there was very little activity on the pond. 1 post all day, imagine that! I did notice that there were an awful lot of visitors here while this was going on. I don't think it would be too hard to figure it out.
Rich Jake

Well folks, I take heart in this:

Our discussion has been for the most part intelligent, rational, AND has required a degree of critical thinking and analysis, not to mention a degree of civility even when emotions are somewhat HOT.

No matter the topic, no one has squelched it by saying �cease!� or limited us in any way, deleted posts or censored anything. For this I rejoice!

And we can all basically (by good and necessary consequence) guess exactly WHO it was that pointed Mr. Jones in Jules direction on this forum, can we not?

Thinks must be getting pretty slow and boring over at the �cesspool� for the Big Bottom Feeder to spend his efforts and time at finding petty and juvenile ways to attempt to cause trouble here. But remember, after we all left his posting and visiting activity allegedly GREW???

Ultimately, we all grow and learn from such exchanges as this, and become the better for it. I for one can now somewhat QUANTIFY the effects upon a customer base that a bad and tempermental exchange can have: very wide reaching effects! There are numerous other tid-bits to be gained from this, and so we see that for those W/O the ill intent and wrong-headedness, Rom 8:28 has it's effect once again

[ 08-23-2002, 02:15: Message edited by: Sean HHI #7364 ]

Alpo

Funny...Funny...Funny HeHe.

All I can say is...Where is Buckweet when ya need him

Well, At least I made #1 at something in my life.

Hey Jules,
I just got here. Been a busy day! I have nothing in this thing, but I am the kind of guy who likes to agree with his friends. I agree with you.
I've only had one SSK barrel, a 250 Savage Imp. It was really nice. But, I have no intention of letting Mr. Jones call my friend names and then get business from me. You can argue with Fred Smith and still do business back and forth. He's not a whiner. And E. Arthur Brown is such a gentleman that a person would not have any inclination to argue with him. VV Dave seems like a great guy too, but I've never bought a barrel from that company.
I spoke with Mr. Jones on the phone just one time. Let me just say that I think it's bad business and manners to use profanity on the phone with a total stranger.
Anyway, there are lots of places to buy T/C barrels. And, I believe strongly that you are a straight up guy.
My real name is T.D. Clevenger

Just a curious question...When you buy a complete gun from SSK, is it a made from scratch frame and all? Or is it a T/C chambered in his proprietary calibers? Just wondering. Such a fine platform, good thing they (T/C) let him use it. mvm

[ 08-23-2002, 05:35: Message edited by: pshooter ]

ok...my two cents ???
please take with grain of salt ???

ok,,im going to have to agree with mssmagnum,,
why did j.d. ask jules what he wanted the dies for ???
but what really gets me is jules said hes going to give the SSK barrel's he has away,,,

i keep checking my mail box.... nothing !!!!


buckweet
p.s. i dont have a problem with VV Dave or virgin vally,,in fact i'll still buy from them,,
misstakes happen,,
im just trying too make the best of it,,im happy they made a misstake !!! lol !!!
course,then again my ex-wife say's im too nice ??
yup..she got the car,,pickup,house,kids,spouse support,child support,ect,,
see ??? im a nice guy !!!

ahhh !!! silly me...
it was outback... not mssmagnum...

shure is fun running up the ''reply'' numbers !!
lol!!

buckweet

Sean.. you made me think a little. Why is JD Jones mad about V.V. making 300/221 barrels. They're cutting into his business, ok. I can understand that making him mad. But as to the name.. I wonder if it bothers him more.. that they're making "his" round under another name. Or that they're NOT using His name?

Remington makes rifles and ammo in .308 Win. Ok as long as they don't mark it .308 Rem. ?

Then again.. this stuff is nothing new. That's how we got the .32-20, 38-40, 44-40 , 30-30 and the likes. Cause Marlin didn't want to put the Winchester name on their guns.

Want to agree with Sean - love the fact that this isn't censored.

However, I'm going to FINALLY get a chance to disagree here... J.D. has EVERY right to ask what Jules, or I, want his product for. He even has the right to refuse to sell to us. But then his rights stop. We have the right to go anywhere else we want to get our toys. To spend our money. To me, it is just plain stupid to treat a customer like Jules was treated. However, stupidity is a right. Not one I want to exercise, but JD's none the less.

Now - I say to prove the point, we each buy a new barrel. In counting the names I normally see on this board I think that would be ~25 +/-. At JD's $350, that would cost JD ~$8750, probably by the time you count mounts and such, it would be ~ $10k. Pricey lesson, but I'm always up for a new one. However, I'll have to postpone my purchase until The Heritick gets his new ones rolling.

Sorry, just the ramblings of a tired old fart that wishes he was in a cabin with a big fire right now.

steve

[ 08-24-2002, 09:04: Message edited by: 1buba ]

steve..
the cabin n' fire sound great.
im hoping thats what i'll be doing here in a few week's up in montana,,
im going too check out the headwaters of the missouri..go swimming in the hot springs

yes i hope mike gets thing's rolling with his barrel's..
did he get his fourm off the ground ???

buckweet

No forumn on his site yet. I'm thinking of maybe putting one up on mine just for the fun of it. As much web work as I've done, I've never done a forum. Maybe I can get him to just run one on my site. We could link 'em back and forth. :-)

I'm jealous of your hunt. Farthest I get to go from Sacramento is Grants Pass. It's not bad, that's for sure, a week off to go learn at Mike's knee sure would be the ticket though.

Steve