Monday already?? That means a trip to the range for me!!! Maybe the smell of gun powder and fresh air will blow away the stench of swamp and dead horse I'm picking up here.
Wes

I think this is what you are smelling Wes??



[ 06-30-2003, 07:46: Message edited by: MSSmagnum ]

Ref. Graybeard.... what busted his cahones was the fact that he was chipping his teeth about my delay, publicly without qualification on his forum, when he knew full well what was going on, including my forcing the issue with TC to get a good replacement barrel for him after I admittedly ruined his. It took two trips to TC and saber rattling to get the job done.... all over a free perk to him with the understanding he would "test it" and report it after I did my work to it.

THEN, he had the unmitigated gall to be "too busy" to do anything with the barrel after he got it!

It was perfectly ok for HIM to be "too busy," but not me, and I flat out called him on it, publicly, which was the venue HE chose and where I followed suit.... in front of God and everyone.

As for inuendo etc. about other barrels not being right.... bull.... there is no inuendo to it. I flat out state exactly what I observe and can readily demonstrate to anyone with an I.Q. above room temperature.

I was invited to Graybeard's forum simply because there were folks getting sick and tired of his blatant pandering to certain businesses. NO ONE in the Contender or Encore business has their act together, and that is a FACT.

And this includes me! For all I have learned over the years, if I had MY act together, I would have a full blown operation going. Instead I have fumbled around with this work with much less than a good business management ability. And, yes, my personal life has been my downfall. BUT this does not change the facts VERY readily observed and measured in barrels WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR, and I do.

Some of you here have been to my shop, and I have shown you first hand what I am talking about. I am ready any time to back up what I say, or if you can prove me wrong, and I will freely admit it. You guys are getting screwed, blued, and tattooed by the whole industry supplying barrels.

Not one manufacturer of barrels puts out a good combination of:

1) straight bore
2) groove diameters on size
3) cleanly cut crowns, cut centered and square to the bore
4) chambers aligned with the bore
5) throats aligned with the bore
6) throats that aren't oversize in diameter
7) hinge pin hole tolerances that give a close fit on the hinge pin
8) locking bolt heights that minimize having to yo yo barrels back and forth to get a good lockup
9) prices that are at all comensurate with the quality of the work you pay good money for.

It just isn't there, ANYWHERE! And it not only makes me mad as hell, but is driving me to do whatever I can to change the situation any way I can, even if it makes a bunch of people mad, the worst of which are the ones peddling barrels with problems, and I only make their work harder for them when YOU know what is going on.

Things WILL change!

Mike

Good to see you've still got your sense of humor, Mike. I'm glad you didn't misunderstand my post.

I wish you and your's the best of luck. I hope everthing turns out well for you.

Take care,

Jeff

Here it goes again. Mike Bellm is the only person on earth that can turn out a good barrel for a TC. BULL CRAP Mike do you have to hear yourself say this or see it in your own writting to reassure yourself on a daily basis ?

Well here we go with everyone is putting out bad products and etc. I hope everyone also reads this and quits turning out junk. Maybe we will all learn what to look for and become pros at determining junk. It would be a relief for the one that is the greatest of all time. I'm afraid to even buy anything with the T/C brand name on it now.
Has anyone ever seen anyone that can do as much self promotion as Mr Bellm does. It was this way on Graybeards and now he has started on here.
Does anyone ever recall any other custom gunsmith doing the same thing on a public form? Maybe on the phone or in letter but on a public forum?
Well lets get ready for the onslought of inuendo and the carefully chosen words that will make us all bow at his feet and worship the very ground he walks on.

[ 06-30-2003, 22:25: Message edited by: Meat Plate ]

Okay, I was gonna let this die, but I can't. First, Mike is absolutely correct. If you measure those things you will find a wide tolerance value. Since he's a gunsmith he knows you can tighten the tolerance if you take your time. The question is, how important is it to tighten those tolerances. Read some reloading books and you'll read about fireforming and only neck sizing to make the cases fit better than factory. That's because they have to make factory ammo that is smaller than the smallest chamber allowable within the tolerance. In Mike's opinion, it's very important to lower the tolerance. And I can say his .30 Bellm on a VVCG blank shoots under 1/2 MOA (with factory ammo from CNC). I can also say the T/C 44 mag factory barrel I had would outshoot my 44SRH with factory ammo. For hunting with pistols on deer sized game I personally am happy with 2" at 100 yards (just under 2 MOA). Almost any factory barrel I've gotten will give you that. I don't think Mike's trying to say he's the only one making perfect barrels. He admits even his can have mistakes. But he is saying we shouldn't accept or pay for barrels that aren't as perfect as the gunsmith can get them. Guys, don't get you're feathers ruffled because the world doesn't agree with you. We read the e-mails differently than you did and after dealing with other custom shops I would rather get a "can't tell you when" than a "you'll have it in about 2 months" and still be waiting 4 months later. How many folks had deposits down on G2's for over 2 years?
Helicopter Bill

"Orygun Mark, You are also making assumptions about me. What makes you think that I wanted my work done regardless of the circumstances ? I never said anything like that. You made an assumption of what you thought I would do based on something you pulled out of your ass. Now other people will come along and read this post and by the time they get to the end, they will only remember the negative parts and many of them will be statements made by people like you making assumptions about what you thought I was thinking or what I would do in a certain circumstance."

Apollo,
You must have a major problem with communication. Read your own posts over as you chose to be a jerk and try and besmirch Mike. Know you have to accuse people of doing what you are doing. The only person who is pulling things out of his rectum is you. Give it up. You make politicians look good with your ramblings and accusations. I get more coherent statements out of 4 year olds without the gutter trash talk. Orygun

Howdy Mike
If i know you your'e getting a real kick out of those two idiots, what were their names meathead and Dick ? Browning! Why not invite em up for a visit sometime, hell i havent seen ya for awhile and we could have some fun with those two! Blaine Eddy

BlaineE: I haven't called you any names YET but I can. So lets lay off the name calling ok. I'd say I can get just as nasty as you maybe more but I don't want to.

The conclusion of this statement I have made over and over again should be self-evident:

Anyone with an I.Q. above room temperature can readily see what is wrong with barrels when they know what to look for, and most of this is very readily demonstrated and measured using garden variety machine shop measuring procedures.

If you cannot see it when it is clearly demonstrated, then your I.Q. MUST be below room temperature, and you probably should not be allowed to play with guns..... or computers for that matter.

The invitation stands, even for the invinceably stupid only interested in entertainment and instant gratification, just bring an arm full of barrels, anyone's barrels, here to my modest shop, and I will show you what is in them. It will blow your mind, if you have one to blow.

I still like the description one fellow came up with while looking through a custom barrel with a badly warped bore spinning in the lathe. " Looks like a kids jump rope" swinging.

This is only one example of a very obvious problem someone paid good money for, but is something even the most hard headed 8-ball can SEE with his own eyes. It is very, very common to varying degrees. No barrel is perfectly straight, but there is no excuse for the severe warpage in so many factory and custom barrels alike.

How do you point a chamber at a swinging jump rope and expect the two to line up? There are ways to work around it, but I dare say virtually no one chambering barrels is doing it.

Like I said, you guys are getting screwed, blued, and tattooed and many of you still don't even have a clue. It is your money to waste if you want to, but there are those who take their shooting more seriously and do want to get the best results they can.

Don't accept barrels with obvious problems, simple as that.

Mike

xxx
That was the rating for the post I was about to make about the need for instant gratification, aka demand syndrome. But I'll be nice.

Mike

[ 07-01-2003, 12:07: Message edited by: Mike Bellm ]

Quotes and sayings by people more intellegent than you does no good. Like I said people will find you out soon enough. If you are the great guru of Contenders and Encore why do you have to self promote. Have you noticed no one else self promotes like you do. People wake up to the pied piper of Grants Pass.
I don't expect anything more of you as this the way you were on Graybeards too.
Why do you think you are so great?

Just like the Energizer Bunny.....It's keeps going, and going and going and going.............

Just intended for a few here, IF you owned one of Mike's barrels, and did what he says to do to tighten up the action, you just might see what a lot of us have found out.

I have had no problem telling people my TC factory barrels were junk, and I will never buy another. I figure if they let what few I owned out to the public, I can't trust anything they put out. Especially in straight walled cartridges.

Meat Plate I've been watching this thread for about a week now. Why are you going on & on? We got the point you Don't like Mike Bellm. Why don't you give it a rest & give the rest of us a break. There is no constructive reason to continue rating & raving about nothing. You said your opinion isn't that enough?
Rich Jake

Rich Jake: As a person I have nothing against Mike Bellm. In my 50 tears I have only learned to dislike only one person and he was a boss of mine. That should tell you that I am not the bad person that everyone thinks I am.
Mike Bellm as I have said before does turn out good work. But he is not the only guy doing good work. If one would listen to him he insinuates that he is.
Mike Bellm is a master with words to get the populace on his side. Using eloquent words never impressed me as people like Hitler and the Serpent in the Garden of Eden used powerful words to betray many.
He needs to get his business sense down pat if he is going to continue to serve the junk buyers of this world.
Also tell me of anyother gunsmith site that self promotes like he does. Does that seem normal to you. Let his services and his greatness carry him through. As great as he is that should be all he needs.
As i said before many will find him out but would they ever admit it no. They would not want to let anyone know they were piped to by the pied piper.

[ 07-01-2003, 16:17: Message edited by: Meat Plate ]

Sorry Man I just don't see it the way you say it. I know that of all the barrel smiths out there there are only three that post on the net & willing to help out others. Mike Bellm & Mike of MBMCO & the VVCG guys, the others will not even give the time of day to the shooters of the T/C Contenders & Encores. I don't think the others can stand the fire of direct conversation with thier customers as the above mentioned people. Look I have a barrel that was rechambered by Mike Bellm & it is Damn accurate. I would love to do further business with the man in the future. As I have done business with the other two businesses mentioned. They are all great people. If you have a personal view of one smith doesn't mean that it is shared by the rest of the people who post here. I am glad to have such a resource as Mike Bellm,VVCG,& MBMCO available to me. I just disagree with you !!!!!
Rich Jake

Rich Jake: That is your right to disagree with me. I am saying that none of the others are as self serving with their promotions as Mike Bellm. If he is so great let him get on here and help people and not be so self serving. It isn't any wonder more custom doesn't get on here. It would be a war with MB doing the most attacking.
So you have a MB barrel so do I. Is it a good barrel Yes. What more do you want me to say.
Does that make me think that he is the only one that can turn out good products NO. Evidentally everyone else thinks so.
Let me tell you a true story. I have a shooting buddy that people will gather round about him and marvel at him as he talks about shooting. How to do it. How to load. How to hit the target and etc. He really is a very good guy but he can't hit the broad side of a barn. He still tells people how to shoot and they listen to him even after they see him shoot. Does he hit the target occasionally yes. Does he load his own ammo yes. I taught him how. Even set up two of his loaders for him. How do you explain people listening to how on the how to's of shooting even when they see him shoot? I don't know but I have seen this in other things too like people that think they are a computer whizz and when you see then on one they are just like me but they can mesmerize people with their tech talk and their bragging and they have people marveling at them too.I don't know maybe if I could just figure out how some can captivate their audience when they are just a self serving braggart and crock full of it I would be less critical but until then.

[ 07-01-2003, 17:18: Message edited by: Meat Plate ]

Cool, 100 replies so far. Will it reach 200 ?

Mike, I have heard of your wonderful work on Encores and the like for some time and would love to have one of your trigger jobs done, but knowing of your wifes health issues I thought I would wait until she is better and you can get your life back in order. Myself I take my hat off to you for being as patient as you were, after the second email I would have told him to kiss my a_ _ and to take his business somewhere else. Work is Work but Family is for ever, I believe that,as customers we should be a little more understanding. May your wife have a speedy recovery and God be with you.

1buba: What has he done so far on the most recent posts? His own little cheerleader. Himself. See he doesn't need any of you guys he has himself to extoll his greatness and virtues.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I find it odd that those who are upset about Mike's scheduling, his use of words, and his own self-promotion, etc. would continue to keep a thread going like this. Is this really the reason behind this post, or do we just enjoy "stirring the pot?"
I don't and cannot know the motives behind the posts, but the results from it have been interesting.
As some have mentioned previously, all this post has succeded in doing is finding a large number of people who disagree with the original complaint and anyone who has agreed with him. The irony of this post (as I read through the majority of the comments) is the opposite purpose has been accomplished. Although the majority is not always correct, the majority posting here have made it very clear about their support for Mike and their reasons for it.
If your primary intention is to find support for Mike as a person and as a gunsmith I would suggest you keep this post going. It seems like another shooter chimes in with positive support the longer it goes. If you enjoy stirring the pot for the sake of seeing people getting irate and snapping back at you or just have a stubborn streak, there is no doubt that this post will continue.
If your goal is to discredit Mike either as a person or as business man I suggest you try barking up another tree or maybe stop barking all together--your reasoning (for whatever reason) is not connecting on this forum.
Ernie

Amen, brother Ernie!!

I could not agree more with xphunter.

I give him my best and most respectful golf clap!

Why do I feel left out of this thread?????LOL!!!!!
I guess I must be gettin old
BTW, Does anyone one here go to WORK???

[ 07-02-2003, 01:00: Message edited by: Jules ]

My fun meter is pegged.

I just chanced onto this thread after not bothering with AR for some time, or I would not be here this long.

It's been fun..... interesting to say the least. Logical? Largely, but there is an element that sure isn't.

apollo.... my offer still stands. If there is anything you want from the store, let me know in an email. For all the exposure you have given me and the self-induced abuses you have suffered, I owe you one.

Mike Bellm,
Sucker for a good fight, often maligned, but where on God's Green Earth is someone that will EVEN ATTEMPT to prove me wrong on a technical basis???? Where? I'm no genius. The facts are all in the barrels to be seen. Where is someone who will challenge me who knows what he is talking about?

I'm lost.... going back to my own forum

www.bellmtcs.com/forum/index.php

maybe see ya there.

This has been pretty amusing to me. I don't let the bashing of my post get to me at all. After all, it's just an internet forum. Topics like this seem to get everyone stirred up and although not many will admit to it, most enjoy participating in a post like this just for the sake of the arguement. I even received one PM from a guy that has actively bashed me on this post and supported Mike. He said "although I totally disagree with you, thanks for getting things stirred up. This forum hasn't seen this much attention in a while."

HEY I have one of those crap barrels that T/C puts out.Just look at the 3 shot group at 100 yards it wont even hit center!Must be the bad chamber cut.What do you think Mike?

[url= http://"http://www.hunt101.com/?p=50170&c=500&z=1"] [/url]

PJ there is no doubt that you can get a barrel that shoots that well from TC, but there is also an equal chance you can get one that ain't worth much also. I know I got one from them.
Rich Jake

[ 07-02-2003, 07:37: Message edited by: cas ]

ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaa That's a good one.

well, guess i'll have to put my .02 cents in too.
Definition of FRIEND:
a friend is someone that you know all their bad points, but is still a friend.
sure, mike has bad points, just as everyone here has(including myself).sure, he does a little advertising and maybe a little bragging.BUT, bottom line, he knows barrels, chambers, and TC'S. i've always found him very helpful with questions. even though very dumb questions at times. how many people take the time to really help the general ignorant public? maybe we all don't agree with every single thing he says, does,sales,etc. everything in life is optional. if you don't want to mess with him, leave it alone. but if i get in a bind and need advice or a little help to figure out a problem, he'll be one of the options i'll try first. he's willing to help, and thats more than can be said about most people in todays world. everyone is me,me,me today. what ever happened to the old time barn raisings, where neighbors get together to build a barn for their FRIEND. Mike Bellm is a barn raiser. hehehe! what idiots we all are for even carrying on such a conversation.