Apollo,

I have read and reread your posted conversation with Mr. Bellm. He was being most reasonable and respectful to you. On the other hand, you have been disrespectful both to him and to those who have taken the time to reply to your post. Mike Bellm is not at fault here--you are--and your true colors are showing. Lighten up and call Virgin Valley, Bulberry, or E. Arthur Brown--and be willing to wait however long it takes for custom work. Either that or be content with factory stuff.

Good Hunting,

Read the post several times. I see your disappointment in not getting what you wanted. But to start name calling and cursing is not warranted. And I do understand what you wanted, but remember sugar catches more flies than vinegar. AND name calling always draws more of the same,. Good luck

I think it is you Apollo that are the jerk, or at least thick headed.

The guy said in his first email that his wife was ill and that he would do the work. You email back with not a shred of concern for his better half and demand to know a date. He replied that if you needed an exact date to look elsewhere. You persisted in bugging him. Again, I sumbit that it is you who are the jerk.

-Zach

That fact that YOU hide behind a screen name while disparaging someone else by name, tells us all we need to know about you.

The guy wouldn't give you an idea of turnaround time. I would have just moved on to another vendor; there are several (SSK, VVGC, Bullberry, Dave Van Horn).

Would you have been happier if he told you 90 days, then ran late? Or would you have been bad mouthing him for not meeting his "promised" date?

George

Mike is opinionate, blunt and at times short tempered. He is also one of the most knowlegable guys I know on Contenders and Encores, and he doesn't mind sharing that knowledge, even when your not sending him money. I have dealt with him several times, and have found that if you give him an inch, he'll give you two.

It is one thing to post that you had dealings with someone that were unsatisfactory. It is quite another to resort to name-calling and vulgarity. Civility costs nothing.

What you (and anyone sles) has to also take into account when your emailing someone like Mike or any other gunsmith or company, your not the only person emailing him, and asking questions, especially the big "how long" question. When your geting 5 to 50 emails a day it's easy to grow tired of trying to give answers that you don't really have.

What is this highschool? Mike hurt your feelings so you decide to tattle on him? Looks like it may have backfired a bit.

Besides that, I'm the only one who's allowed to call Mike a jerk.

Maybe the people at Virgin Valley, Bullberry and E. Arthur Brown read all of this they may not want to deal with a child. In fact you may have to show proof of age.

Outback

Apollo,

How old are you?? You have to be young from what I have seen in this thread.

The man was telling you that he could not, under any circumstances, even give you a rough time frame. If he had told me that, I would have interpreted it to mean that it could be two weeks or two years. I don't think it was that hard to figure out. If you needed a firm time frame, he suggested that you take the work to someone that could accomodate you.

Have you ever had to deal with a loved one with serious extended illness? You do not get to make plans for yourself. Period. No work plans. No hunting/shooting plans. Nothing. Sometimes it is hard to even pencil in adequate sleep. I hope you never have to go through this, but that is the way it is. If you ever do find your self in this unfortunate role, I hope that you at least don't have to spend your free time answering asinine email questions three times for some asshole that was too stupid to understand the answer the first time. I'll bet your third response won't be near as polite as the one you received in this case!

As for you asking "How was I supposed to know what you have going on in your life?", HE TOLD YOU IN HIS VERY FIRST RESPONSE TO YOU. He stated:

"No promise on delivery time, but should not be too long.

I have heavier and heavier demands on me on the domestic side.... better half's health.... that is the reason I stopped taking custom work for so
long."

What is so hard to interpret here??

Apollo

I think you need to reread the post . I have known Mike several years he told you not to send it in plain words anybody could read with a little common since .

If I had received Mike's first reply, I would've said one of two things:

"Sorry to hear that your wife's not doing well. I'll not trouble you further and best of luck."

or

"I understand that you can't give an estimate of a delivery time, given your wife's situation, which obviously takes precedence. I still want my gun worked on by the best, however, so I'm going to send it to you anyway and just let me know when you get around to it. No rush."

Apollo, you were in the wrong. Accept that and learn from this situation.

I cant say anything more than whats already been mentioned, some people are so self centered that they cant accept a answer. I have another barrel that I want to have mike rechamber, it will be my 4th from mike, if I need to wait years before I send it to him I will because hes that good!

I normally do not respond to things such as this, but I feel I must add my $ .02 worth this time.

Appolo you keep saying time was not an issue. Well for something that is not an issue, you sure have made an issue out of it. Obviously Mike did not feel it prudent to give you an explaination of "Not too Long" because of his circumstances, and the fact that Mike has dealt with Customers such as you for many years, and he knew where this was going. As it would seem no matter what answer Mike gave you would have made you happy.

Now I have never meet Mike personally, nor have I ever had one of his barrels or rechambers. However back in the days when Mike was in Utah I was just getting started with my fascination with Contenders. On many, many occasions I phoned MIke to ask for advice and his opinions. Each and evrey time he would take the time to answer my questions, and he would not only answer them, but would take the time to explain WHY. I think all of us that Mike has helped over the years to better understand the Contender are in his debt, as he has went through great lengths to provide this information over many, many years.

Last December I wanted Mike to rechamber my Super 14 6 Land & Groove .30 Herrett for me. Mike and I exchanged e-mails on several occasions and discussed cartridges. I decided I wanted it to be a .30-30 Ackley Improved (for reasons that are not important), but Mike told me he was not accepting any new rechamber work at the time due to Dee's Health, and even if he did accept the barrel for rechambering he said he could not even begin to tell me when I could expect it back. Mike told me up front "If I needed it in a certain time frame, send it to someone else". I asked Mike if he was OK with that, and he said if it wouldn't have been he wouldn't have suggested it.

I really wanted a Bellm Rechamber for my .30-30 AI for a lot of reasons. Maybe it was that I wanted Mike to do it because it was to be an Ackley Cartridge and Mike worked with P.O. Ackley, however I ended up having SSK do the rechamber for me. Yes they did it in a timely fasion. Is this rechamber as good or better than a Bellm rechamber would have been, I have no idea. What I do know is that this barrel will put 5 - 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips at a muzzle velocity of 2683 FPS into .673" groups at 100 yards.

My problem is I still do not have a Barrel Chambered by Mike, but hopefully funds and Mike's situation will permit that to happen in the not to distant future. Than I can happily say that I have barrels from Mike Bellm, Virgin Valley Custom Guns & SSK Industries that are providing me exactly what I want them to do, and that is put the bulelts where I want them to go.

Nuff said.

Larry

apollo I agree with the other guys what did you not understand about Don't send it if you have to know when

Hopefully the a** has left the stable
Mike, you and Dee are in our thoughts and prayers.

I have two of the greatest rechambers going thanks to Mike. I did get one quickly as it was the last on a run of his 308's, the other was worth the wait. I knew it would take a long time as he was cutting off the custom chambers at that time.
I hope you do not send them out as I still need a 22 MAG and 444 done. I would rather him do mine as I appreciate his work.

Mike has even started getting someone set up to follow his rechamber program. He has openly for the past year stated that he cannot meet the demand for the custom rechambers along with the time he needs for his wife.

Want an estimated date-get another Smith to do it.
Want a great rechamber-get Mike, simple as that.
Looks like you blew your chance to sample a great rechamber.
Yes his wife has been ill and that alone in my book buys him all the time he needs...With her! She comes first in his life and that is in my mind the greatest thing he can do.

Thanks Mike for the great work in the past and I hope your better half is feeling better.

KenTN

I can see right now that either the Pope or Billy Graham better move over because Mike Bellm is sure to displace them before this thread is over.
Maybe he will surpass even them. I never knew anyone could be so great.

I don't agree with everything Bellm says. I do agree with everyone, his wife's health does come first.

[ 06-28-2003, 23:40: Message edited by: JD HHI 6092 ]

JD HHI 6092: Since you quoted me where did I say his wife should come last. Sickness is a bad situation to go through for sure. My dad is sick and I know how it is. But a business is a business plain and simple. Many one man shops take in more work than they can possible get out in a normal time frame. If that is not true than how do you explain the time frames of some of those guys? Instead of taking in what work they can do in a REASONABLE time they keep taking in order after order after order until they can't see the light of day. Like the Dentist or Doctor that schedules more patients than he or she can reasonable see in a normal day and then they keep people waithing an hour or two while they try to catch up. It has to be greed or stupidity. Then the inevitable happens and something comes along to upset the applecart and they get even farther behind. As we get older we mostly slow down, feel bad, have sickness in the family or ourselves or someother problem. That needs to be allow for in the planning of a business just like expenses. I know some smart aleck will say if you don't want to wait don't have custom work done BUT I don't mind to wait as long as it is a reasonable time frame depending on the work being done. I would not expect a custom rifle to be built in the same time as a rechamber job or something like that. But if I have a deposit of several hundred dollar invested I should have rights as to time frames, time limits or whatever. If the gunsmith only works two days a week and then spends the other five in the local bar or strip joint I may want to go somewhere else but how will I know until the guy tells me?
One could do like a custom knife maker that lives close to me does. He doesn't take deposits and will charge for the knife when finished. He said that way if he wants to take a couple weeks goofing around fine and if the customer doesn't want the knife then he will sell it at a knife show. He still makes his money.
Anyway how does one protect himself from the guys that lets their greed or stupidy over run their jaybird brain and causes their behind to be overloaded? When one is quoted two months and it takes nine something is wrong with the gunsmith wouldn't you say?
I think apollo was out of line but how many Custom guys even hit close to their proposed completion date.
I think this thread really isn't about Milke (Dennis) Bellm totally but about the group as a whole.
Please think about what I said before you rip me up one side and down the other.
Thanks in advance for your understanding and consideration concerning what I have written above.

[ 06-28-2003, 23:55: Message edited by: Meat Plate ]

I totally agree that his wifes health should be top priority. I never said it shouldn't but there sure are plenty of ass clowns that seem to think that I have either said it or implied it.

By the way, thanks to everyone that has sent me PM's and emails supporting my side of the story.

Thanks also to everyone that doesn't agree with me for keeping this topic at the top of the page. It's nice to keep seeing Mike Bellm is a Jerk at the top of the page every time I look. At least it isn't getting pushed to the bottom of the page so it's not getting the attention it deserves.

Hey Apollo I have a two degrees and have published a couple of papers on research I have done so I have a fairly good grasp of the english language. Also I own my own buisiness and have since I was 18 years of age. I believe the gentleman made it quite clear, If you need a time frame don't send it for his wife is more important than you(wow imagine that, I feel for your wife or wife to be). Would you have prefered him to say "send it out it'll be around 6months then something goes wrong with his wife and can't get to it for a year. Then you would have been pissed for he told you a time frame and didn't stick to it. You are the type of customer I do not like to deal with for we are damned if we do damned if we don't. I, unlike you am not thin skinned and prefer honesty over good natured BS any day. And yes most here do understand you did not ask for an exact date but by your words said he could not adhere to a time frame. Maybe you ought to go shoot factory class guns somewhere t/f you can order all your parts from the factory which keeps parts on hand.

My, My, My. Isn't it interesting what can happen when I offer to do a favor for someone I don't even know.

I have not taken any work for well over 6 months.... none.... period.... except for trigger jobs which I have always continued to take on and turn around in two weeks or less with very few exceptions and then by not more than a few days over two weeks.

I am almost to the very last of the old backlog, which I resolved to complete before accepting any other work.

Since stopping work, there have been a couple barrels show up unannounced, one of which is a .357 Maximum, and I conceded to let two people send theirs in to be done at the same time as the one from the backlog. Mr. apollo was one of the two.

No good deed goes unpunished.

From 24 years of working for you guys, every year there has to be 1 or 2 people with an over active demand syndrome. I am 99% civil and in touch with humanity most of the time, but as I "grow up," I have less and less tolerance for it, especially under the domestic circumstances that exist. Thus, I made the extremely hard but crucial decision to simply stop taking work.

It is "stress management" on one hand and a matter of responsibility on the other. For me to continue taking on work in a volume I could not manage even minimally would have been extremely irresponsible. With the time constraints due to personal matters fluctuating widely from day to day, there is no way to be sure to keep up with the work. And not knowing from one minute to the next when the next stay in the hospital will occur or if I will be making funeral arrangements, I simply do not want a bunch of custom work piled up here. No matter what happens, there will be a substantial disruption in work, period. I want to keep short accounts with everyone, and not waste any more of my life explaining why something is not done.

Now, and for the forseeable future I will be focusing on supplying the accessories I have on the online store and working on new barrels as time and circumstances permit. I do not and will not be taking any orders for custom barrels. When a barrel is available and ready to ship, it will go on the store and will be shipped usually within 3 days of receipt of payment.

If I can slip in some rechamber work, I will, but only in very limited quantities I can turn around quickly without being harranged about "status of my barrel," " how is it coming?" "when will you get to it.... " yaddie, yaddie, yaddie.

I have been blessed with the option of shifting my work and supplying items on hand while most of my daily activities are right here in the house where I can help Dee when needed and simply "be there," which is something someone constantly in fear of suffocating really needs. Among many maladies, most life threatening is C.O.P.D, and for you smokers, you should spend a day with me. Maybe you would figure out that tobacco, as wonderful as it is at the time, is certainly not worth dying for. Nor is dying from destroyed lungs the way to go out of this world. Suffocating is simple. You black out. You die. But the real misery and agony is from the Prednizone that keeps you alive..... it destroys the rest of the body, but it lets you keep breathing so you can suffer longer. The situation is similar to someone being on life support and having to make the decision to "pull the plug" and let the loved one pass on.... which cannot be done of course while the loved one can exercise a choice to live or die.

So for ANY one to get their leaky-assed panties in a bunch over a rechamber job...... sorry, folks, I have no time for it. Nor will I be hassled over it, not now, not later. If that makes me a JERK, then I will be the best JERK I can be. Make no mistake.

As many of you know, I have been bending over backwards trying to get things lined up for you so you can get better chamber work done and better barrels. David White has followed me for years and will be back in operation, he says, by July 15. I have given him a forum of his own on my forum site: http://bellmtcs.com/forum/index.php

In other words, I will be taking my time to work with David in the more specialized Contender and Encore work details than we have gotten into over the years so that I can refer you to him with confidence that so far as possible, you will get the same work from him as you would from me. I get nothing from it except the satisfaction of helping you guys, whether you appreciate what goes on behind the scenes or not.

I have taken my time to freely explain in detail specialized techniques to overcome the very, very measureable, discernable, chronic problems with Contender and Encore barrels, which ticks off a lot of people with closed minds and/or especially those who sell defective products, TC factory or otherwise.

While folks chip their teeth over how long it takes me to do something, these same folks rave about "customer service" when they get a job back quickly from someone else, have a major problem that never should have made it out the door in the first place, then have to send it back to get it fixed in "jig time." What the hell sense does this make? We have become dumbed down in American society, and this is just another example of it.

For all the posts about great customer service fixing problems that never should have been and how fast they get something.... how many posts have you seen where someone had to send something back to me? There are always a few here and there, but darned few and not for the gross idiocy so many returns to other shops are for.

Now.... Richard E. Browning is the name in the email address "apollo" used. We now know his disposition, and the others can be aware of who and what they are dealing with also. There are a few other pariahs that have been exposed, so govern yourselves accordingly as you have before with such information. You see, Richard, the two-edged sword cuts both ways.

Many thanks to those whose prayers, good wishes, and patience have helped us through really difficult times over the past two years. August 26th, 2001 is when the real health crises reared their ugly heads. And thanks also to those we have not yet had the pleasure of becoming acquainted with, yet offered their objectivity in this thread. We love you all, even the obnoxious ones that have a problem with me, which is their problem and their loss, not mine.

All the best.....

Mike Bellm, THE Hairy Tick

www.bellmtcs.com
http://bellmtcs.com/store/index.php

Anyone else offer any significant technical information on their websites???? Don't think so.

apollo,
REF;
"Thanks also to everyone that doesn't agree with me for keeping this topic at the top of the page. It's nice to keep seeing Mike Bellm is a Jerk at the top of the page every time I look. At least it isn't getting pushed to the bottom of the page so it's not getting the attention it deserves."

Let me help you.
Better to be controversial than ignored.


Mike

VV Jeff:
At least you know enough about the subject to have a basis to call me a jerk, which I take as a compliment coming from you. But as with the invitation to others who disagree with me, fine.
Come on up here and prove me wrong. We'll both learn something. But if it is just an opinion you picked up somewhere along the way, you might as well just have fun and make it a social call.

Think about this one Jeff. What will YOU be like after 24 years of this work??? Scarey thought, eh? You have how many years now? How many to go? When I hang it up, you can take my place as THE Hairy Tick.

Hope all is going well for you, Pop, and crew in SW Utah!

Mike

Mike,

I wish I was as well spoken as you! You get to the point and NO bull.
Thank you for a great website. I have learned alot because of it.
Again my thoughts and prayers are with you and your wife Dee.
I'm 34 years old and lost a daughter 7 years ago,
any JACKASS that thinks a job,house,car,custom gun barrel or anything else is more important than family is an idiot.
I learned alot from the loss of our daughter, the main one is YOU ALLWAYS DON'T GET YOUR OWN WAY! And the other is PATIENCE.
If anything good came out of it, it was my learning of those two items.
Thanks again for you website.
Tony Kunch

All I can say is that Mike Bellm is a stand up guy and I can't even count the times he's taken the time to give me free advice and encouragement as I tried to figure out Contenders and how to make them shoot.

There are many, many of us here that have benefited greatly from Mike's help, advise, and friendship.

Mike.... God Bless You and Dee!!!

I believe that Apollo could use an old fashioned trip to the woodshed to be taught some manners.

$bob$

apollo & Meat Plate;

IMHO:

If you don't care for Mike Bellm, his work, his personal mannor, or his attitude, I suggest that you two go join in "The Pond", also known as "Gery Beards Forums", and stop wasting space on this forum.

Thank you.

LRHA-Shooter: I never said I didn't like Mike (Dennis) Bellm. Where did you get your info. Mike Bellm is a master at words. He has sickness in his family that is understandable. He is getting old that is understandable. His tolerance with people is getting shorter that is inderstandable but he is a master at getting people on his side. On
Graybeards he consistantly slammed others by not what he said but how he said what he said. Mike Bellm is NO
T the only man that can do good work but if you could go back to Graybeards he would insinuate that others were not up to measure. He was careful not to say it directly but to insinuate it. Bill Graham got tired of it and his subliminal messages and banned him after he got tire of his excuses for being late on a barrel and he decided to take Graham to task on the forum instead of E-Mail and keep it between the two of them.
As far as I know Bellm does do good work as I have a barrel from him that was quoted two month delivery time and it took nine months. He had every excuse in the book while holding my deposit.
Am I saying everyother person in the business hits the delivery time on the nose? No I am not. But nine months when two was quoted? There have been may that have influenced the masses down through the times most notable was Adolph Hitler and the Serpent in the Garden of Eden. I am sorry that his wife is sick and would help him if I could. But lets move on and lets let Mike get back to his duties at home let this thread drop so he can keep his mind off Accuratereloading so he do the more important things at home. I am sure if anyone wants to keep this going I and am some others will be glad too. Good day to you and sleep tight with the knowledge that how fortunate that we are that we have someone to clean up the mess that T/C suposedly has made.

[ 06-30-2003, 03:51: Message edited by: Meat Plate ]

Goinhuntin: If you know so much you tell the story. You deny that Graybeard got his hackles up over Bellm taking him to task over a barrel that Bellm promised and kept delaying?
That Graybeard got tired of his self promotion on the board? Also his constant putting down of other custom shops?
You tell the story then. Perfect memory guy.

Meathead

Yep, as a matter of fact, I "do know so much" about the Gaybeard/Bellm blow up, just don't see the need to rehash it here and now.

It's very obvious that you have a bias against Mike (I'm sure you have your reasons).....fine, I have no problem with that. However, when you start dredging up old history just to start trouble.....and you don't even have the story straight.....then it's time you were told to get it right or leave it alone!

I'm certain that you will claim that you didn't bring it up to start trouble.....fair enough.... then please tell us why you brought it up at all?

Goinhuntin: When you bet on a horse race you look how the horse has done on past races. I am a believer in that. So what is the story if I am wrong. Remember you keep posting back.
Have I even mentioned your name until you mentioned mine?
I am waiting for you next post.

What part of "don't see the need to rehash it here and now" did you fail to comprehend?

I fail to see how any good can come from dredging up all that garbage......so I refuse to do so!!!

[ 06-30-2003, 06:00: Message edited by: GonHuntin ]

Gonhuntin: You keep replying. Tell us the story ok.
I don't mind being corrected. It won't be the first time and it sure won't be the last.
I am here.

This is getting boring gentlemen and it seems to have gotten of topic a little anyway. I think Apollo has taken enough of a beating for his comments and it's time to put this to rest. How about we let this topic slowly fade away.

Hope everyone had a good weekend cause Monday is almost here.