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In all the law enforcement training I have done both as a student and instructor, I both practiced and taught what I call the "front sight mantra" That is every time you make the decision to fire start chanting in your head "front sight front sight front sight". Whether that decision is made when you draw, or when you go from low ready to high ready, or when you are already on target. If your head is behind the gun and when the gun comes on target and you are "chanting" front sight front sight in your head meaning is my focus on the front sight and is it covering the target; the likelihood of the first shot hitting where you want goes way up. I believe there was a study of LE shootings and something like 90% of LEOs who missed with the first shot couldn't say where their front sight was when they pulled the trigger and 90% who hit the target distinctly remember and recall where the front sight was Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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I'm still trying to master shooting accurately under NO pressure ...  | |||
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Not to be too arguementative, and while that works for me with both rifle and handgun, with a shotgun (if I mount the gun right)if I concentrate on the front sight I will almost always miss or cripple a bird. if I just concentrate on the target it always seems to work right. I have been told that that is what the correct fit with a shotgun will do for you. it is a special case, but just putting it out there. | |||
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My comments are related to personal defense handguns (it will of course also work close in with rifles and shotguns) where the distance is generally less than 15 yards if not less than 5 or 10 yards and accuracy means hitting a 6 inch circle very fast with the first shot while under extreme stress. Shooting clays or birds (cripped or otherwise)with a shotgun in the field is a different technique and endeavor. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Can't disagree with that "front sight" business. I know that when I practice "El Presidente" without focusing on the front sight I can hear the hits on the metal target. but have no idea where I hit. When focusing on the front sight, I am a bit slower with the first shot but generally get an 'A". As Leatham or someone else said "You can't miss fast enough to win"! Of course,, that makes the "partridge" front sight much faster in my opinion. Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Mike, I couldn't agree more with the importance of sight picture and accurate shot placement. I have been a law enforcement officer for 23 years and can say from experience you have to act quickly but you must stay focused on the sights. It is much better to loose a few hundredths of a second acquiring the sights and placing your first shot where it needs to go than to get off several shots very quickly that either miss or are superficial. Armed assailant are like dangerous game in that quick is important but accurate shot placement is everything. | |||
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Isn't something like paintball a good experience builder for the real world? | |||
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Found this link on GlockTalk and thought it might fit in here quite well!; http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749...bbers-24562273 Watch carefully! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Never done much paintball so can't say... Another good test is to physically exert yourself and then run shooting drills. Stress and being "winded and muscle fatigue" have similar impacts on motor skills. So to simulate stress we would have students do 25 push ups then sprint 200 yards, then go through the course of fire. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, did you look at the link I posted? Pressure? I'd say. They jumped on him almost right away, from say 5-6 feet. Looked like they beat him over the head. Then things got interesting! Front sight did you say?!!! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Haven't looked yet...will look tonight Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I had a friendly acquaintance of mine who was a state trooper in La. Bank robbery and he was in hot vehicle pursuit of one of robbers. Robber either wrecked out or abandoned vehicle (been about 25 years don't recall all the minor details) and took off down railroad tracks. In process he and my Trooper buddy exchanged pistol fire. My buddy who was a national level pistol shot (2600 club which was pretty exclusive back then) fired 12 shots (six rounds out of his revolver, don't recall what it was but maybe a 66 and a reload) while being fired at and chasing the guy on foot. Neither crook nor my buddy cut a feather. He explained it as "Well, when the target is shooting back, it's hard to keep that sight picture that everyone talks about." I might add that the distances were considerably farther than the 7 yards and under which the typical gun fight occurs in. Something on order of 25 yards at least. Robber was eventually caught by dogs or backup or both, but unwounded. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Mike: Many agencies employ some combination of physical exertion and shooting in their firearms programs. It's an important and appropriate exercise. In reality, though, the exercise is more useful in teaching the student how to control breathing and body position than in over coming psychological stress. There is a huge difference between shooting under the stress of time and physical exertion, and the stress of being shot. A meaningful way of doing this has yet to be developed. Yet programs such as the one you describe and teach certainly work toward that goal. I appreciate the contributions you make to the industry. There are programs where trainees are subjected not only to physical exertion, but to changing light conditions, moving objects, unstable and irregular footing, and sound distrations. Some programs introduce flash bangs thrown near the trainee, muzzle flashes and gun fire "reports" from downrange, and firearm malfunctions. And no two trainees experience the same scenario. While such courses help the trainee to learn to operate in a changing and unknown environment, both physically and mentally, there is really no way to realistically replicate a personal threat. The student will always know it's simply a training exercise. ( Frankly, those students that percieve such training as threatening are not the ones you want in your unit anyway.) The more complete programs compliment range sessions with classroom curricula that speak to the psychological aspects of confronting personal threats. It's an interesting discussion, though. Is surviving a gun fight simply a matter of putting rounds on the threat, or is it about being mentally prepared to do so? Obviously, both. But which is more important? History tells us there is a huge difference between being a shooter and a gunfighter. Huge. 114-R10David | |||
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Force on force with sims round or air soft ups the stress factor. But its nothing like when you know the guy is armed and willing to take you on or has taken a shot at you. But good training helps I heard many of times after the fact I acted just like I was trained. I stress geting hits in training is very important if you can't hit a target that is not shooting back how are going to when they are. I have had over the last 33 years during traiing have people tell me and they really belive it. " You know I can not hit anything on the range but when the shit hits the fan I'll beable to hit my target" I seen the same people shooting at a target 10 yards away dump the frist couple of rounds into the dirt between them and the target. Some people no matter how hard you try to help them well not consider that they are wrong. | |||
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Don't disagree with any of the above especially that there has been no really good training exercise that can simulate actual combat. The best that you can really do is use "proxies" during training and continue to focus on good fundamentals under simulated stress and you have a very good chance that you will survive the real life engagement. To be clearer, I am not suggesting that you must have a "perfect" sight picture but that if you have a clear picture of the the front sight and "know" the front sight is on the portion of the target you want to hit, you are going to be in very good shape at combat distances and will have very good "combat accuracy". Peter, the link seem to be broke. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Gato, about what year was this? I might know that LSP officer, I think I used to shoot Bullseye Pistol with him... If you remember his name send me a PM. If it is who I think it is, he was a good guy... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Yeah I see that! Try this: http://news.yahoo.com/video/us...ore-robbers-24562273 Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Well...I give him great credit for defending himself and for surviving and for repelling the threat. His technique is one I would not generally recommend. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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It appears that he did not have his pistol loaded. I see him draw load a mag try and fire remembers to rack the slide and the starts to fire. It would have been faster to have be able to draw and fire with out having to load first. But then caring a empty pistol is very safe you don't have to worry about it firing by its self. Or fring when you really need it to. Loading or chambering a round is one thing I don't worry about mine are carried with a round in the chamber. | |||
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Yes I caught that too. However i did not see where he produced the gun from. On the shelf perhaps? It should give all the experts some food for thought, if they ever do. Those guys walked in and were on him in 2 seconds from a distance of 3-5 feet it looked like. No checking the premises, no scouting, no nothing. No chance for warning bells, assessing the threat condition putting distance between yourself and the attackers, and all the other BS. They were there and on him. Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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In Kalifornia you can open carry, but only if the gun is fully unloaded. Nothing in the chamber, no mag in the well, so it's possible he was just trying to say legal. | |||
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except inside of his/his employers place of business concealed carry laws do not apply. Of course he is subject to his employer's rules but those are not violations of the law it would just likely get him fired if there was a rule against it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I agree that something like paintball competition modified as deadly force simulations could help a lot. The FBI interactive movie/shooting training also helps. Something no-one has mentioned yet, but which I believe is very important, is mental prep. On actual debrief, a fair number of officers involved in shootings may, IF ASKED SPECIFICALLY, admit to some fleeting uncertainty as to whether or not the shooting was instantly initially viewed as a viable, legal, necessary action. That suggests a fear of doing the wrong thing. And any fear of using deadly force can get a guy killed. It can not only slow his reactions, but it can inhibit proper presentation, aim, trigger pull, and follow-through. To win a gunfight, it helps to act with confidence, to actually do a thing the body is supposedly already trained to do. So I feel both training and mental certainty both contribute to a skilled gunfighter. So, I guess the next question is, how do we best properly prepare an officer to be confident that he is using the right amount of force? My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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Thanks for the clarification Mike. The Kalifornia laws are pretty complex. | |||
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Indeed they are...try living here. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Well, let me stir the pot a bit! In my experience shooting alongside LEOs ( I belong to an FOP range) the modus operandi seems to be to sling as many rounds down range as fast as possible. Listening to these guys shoot is like listening to a war movie. There is NO concept of let's shoot and see if the bullet went where I intended. So, if that is so, then why are we worrying about making scenarios more realsitic etc. when, even when there is NO pressure they still miss the target? The very first IPSC match I entered I used my Gold Cup, won the Unclassified, and would have placed third overall (local match, long time ago) with my score. I was under the impression that I was supposed to hit the targets. The stage ended with hitting a stop plate. I watched guys shoot 5-6 rounds trying to hit that thing! Not saying I'm great, just pointing out that perhaps there is something in LEO training (or perhaps mindset) that says you have to sling rounds downrange as fast as possible. Not saying that's necessarily wrong either. In a combat situation it might be better to make the bad guys keep their heads down until help arrives! Of course, there is always the risk to bystanders. Just some food for thought, Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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As a long time firearms instructor I found there are several types of cops. Those who care and are fire arms guys/gals they will give any one a run for their money. Then there are the ones who think they will have to use their firearms some day and are fair shots but don't paractice on their own time. The third group and most likely the largest are those who don't think they well ever have to use their firearms, don't care if they ever shoot them, don't care to learn how to except to barely pass the qualafication course. Never take their guns out to clean them, handle them, ect. The most they have ever handled a firearm of any type was in the academy. Then only because they had too. Then after that because they only had too. Their guns are dirty. They have a hard time loading mags. If the firearm has a safety on it most of the time they forget to take it off untill they can't get it to go bang then look around like whats wrong with my gun. When you offer to help them and work with them to improve their skill level they joke about it, Tell you they are not having trouble ect. Tell them to dry fire as it it doesn't cost any thing they tell you the dept should be supplying more ammo. Even if you gave it to them they would never shoot it. The first group well shoot all you give them and then buy more on their own and shoot it on their own time.. The second group well shoot all the ammo as long as you are paying them to do it. There are the few that are very good shots, some that are ok and lots that just don't give a dam. | |||
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Every time I try to shoot "faster", I miss (well, in a relative sense, since I'm not as accurate). The beauty about lots of practice is that you get faster going slowly the more you practice. But that's not the point; how do you convince yourself to shoot "slow" under real world pressure? I don't have the answer of course, since shooting against the clock in competition has no relationship to trying to save your life, or another's life. I think it's all about "mind set". You have to want to make that shot count so much that you force yourself to take the time. Lot's of scenarii try to simulate it, but none will probably resemble the one you are confronted with when it counts. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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I remember when I was 16 or 17 my brother and I decided we needed to learn to combat shooting and multiple targets. We had been shooting and hunting with pistols for years but never fast or more then one target at a time. We were taught and prided our selfs on don't shoot less you were going to hit your target. Heck I was putting 5 of 6 in to a 3lb coffee can at 70yards and hitting a trapped coon in the head at 5 feet was easy. We set up 3 man sized targets about five feet apart. Went back to about 10 yards drew my double action 357 out and as fast as I could proceeded to miss them. Lesson well learned I needed to slow down and hit them. I still paractice a new shooting style slowly at frist building speed as I go. Now after many tens of thousands of rounds and decades later I have improved. That one time taught me many things. | |||
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And most of the Cops that do that have this little patch on their uniform that says S.W.A.T, and belong to that first catagory you mentioned. Around here, it's the one's in the third catagory that keep shooting their own kids with their Glocks. Anyone who understands how the body reacts to stress will see the inherent truth in Mikes proposition. The human mind can typically concentrate on 5-7 things (plus or minues 2) at a given time. When you are shooting at the range, it's: grip stance Front sight Rear sight target breathing trigger pull. When even a mild stress is introduced, the number of things the mind can concentrate on is reduced by two. Now when bullets are flying YOUR direction, that's more then just a mild stress. In addtion, the first thought in your mind is "HOLY SH**" So "Get your front sight on the target and pull the trigger," is probably pretty good advice. Besides, if you survive, at autopsy, the Coroner won't be measuring your group size for score, so don't worry about that perfect sight picture, just get some hits on target, and walk out alive. | |||
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And most of the Cops that do that have this little patch on their uniform that says S.W.A.T, and belong to that first catagory you mentioned. Or really just like to shoot and care that they do a good job. | |||
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I am not sure I am impressed with the number of thousands of rounds fired. As someone once said "practice does not make perfect...perfect practice makes perfect", or words to that effect. On a different note, speaking personally, shooting against the clock DOES make me shoot too fast! I have to force myself to be 'smooth" rather than fast. It does not help watching the top notch IPSC shooters as these (like Barnhart I believe) are often "crash and burn" types ie. they either win or come last! Many years ago my club was visited by a top ranked shooter, from Norway I believe. He was unbelievably fast on the plates when he hit them all! Most of the time he missed one, but when he got them all it was about 2-3 seconds. I am not sure that is the way I want to shoot. Just my 2 cents, Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Peter, I haven't been an active instructor for 5 years so I can only speak to about 2006, but I can say in the 11 or so years that I taught and I doubt it has changed or ever will change...there is no teaching doctrine of fire as many rounds as fast as possible. It is in fact the opposite, 2 or 3 round strings and then assess the threat. Wink, You are right, the saying is 7/8th of speed is smoothness. Learn to shoot accurately then learn to simply do it in less time. Antelope Sniper has captured the essence of the point under stress you will "play just like you practiced" and if all your practice included you chanting over and over in your head "front sight, front sight, front sight". You are very likely under stress to make sure that your front sight is on the target and you will get a solid hit. There is a saying: practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. There are two stories from decades ago: 1. The dead patrol officer who had a gun fight and had to reload his revolver. They found six spent shell casing in his right front pants pocket. Yes, he didn't like to pick up his brass afterward and since the course of fire allows ample time, he would dump his empty cases into his hand and put them in his pants pocket. So under stress in a gunfight for his life which he lost, he took the time to put his empties in his pants pocket before reloading. 2. Story number 2 is very similar to story number 1 but it was a speed loader in the officer's left breast pocket. He didn't want to worry about losing or stepping on and breaking his $6 speed loader on the range, so he always put it in his pocket. So in a gunfight for his life he took the time to unbutton his left breast pocket and put his speed loader in it. Peter I was typing as you were posting. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Yup! Think we are all saying the same thing. Especially in competition I find myself trying to be faster than the guy in front of me. Same with skeet, break the bird faster than the guy in front. Why? Beats the hell out of me! A dead bird is a dead bird. Ego I guess, plus watching the pro shooters and thinking that is how it should be done. I have no idea what I would do in a "real life" situation. I hope I would do OK, but I might just s..t in my pants! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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Mike I think you are writing about the Newhall Ca shooting where in 1970 4 CHP officers were killed more then one had brass in their pockets. That shooting along with several others changed on how we teach officers. Peter your right one can just blast and not train. But that I dought that you well find blasters doing thousands of rounds on a regular basic. Just to dam expensive for them. I have seen them do a few hundred now and then shooting mud puddles ect. doesn't help their skill level. Serious shooter do shoot lots of rounds down range when I was competeing 400 to 500 rounds a week was common in paractice. Last year I shot 3000 to 5000 rounds of various pistol cailbers mostly 40s&w and 38spl. Add that up over 35 years of steady pistol paractice. | |||
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The few times that I was affected by events, I would get weak in the legs afterward. What is strange is in retrospect, the events that were really bad say a 9 on a scale of 1 to 10 caused no physical condition, but an event that was maybe an 8 would cause it. Only happened probably a couple of times and always afterward but when it did happen, I would say to myself...why I am affected by this because that was not as dangerous as XYZ event 3 months ago. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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P Dog Shooter, I am familiar with the Newhall Massacre but was not aware of the brass in the pocket issue in that event. I do recall Jack Twinning's statement about bragging that he shot Officer Frago becuase: "He got careless, so I wasted him." So when people see Police Officer's act with an abundance of caution it is most likely that they don't want to be careless. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike I remember a few times when the sh-t hit the fan doing what needed to be done. Then after wards going holy crap what just happened. Good training prethought out plans of action got you throught it then after wards you knew how close it really was. | |||
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Most of you guys know about the Miami Shootout, where basically one guy hit a total of twelve times with handgun rounds and buck shot took out a whole crowd of FBI agents, killing two. This classic confrontation proves beyond any doubt the old saw about no plan surviving first contact with the enemy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout | |||
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Yes know it well. It was plain to me that the piss poor if any planning and the piss poor shooting on the FBI's part were the major clause of that screw up. Then they tried hard to blame it on a single bullet not of any of the hundred plus misses. Or the other tactical errors the agents made. But what did did give was a lot better bullet designs | |||
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