I think the Miami Shootout was an eye opener for the FBI as well. I think there was a mystique within the FBI that all they had to do was show up and the opposition would fold. These bad guys obviously did not. There was another thread on being prepared to fight! The bad guys were, the FBI was unprepared.
Having said that, there are FBI agents and FBI agents! I good friend of mine (20+ years) is a (retired) FBI agent. He dealt with white collar crime and has NEVER had to use his gun. Kept it in his briefcase! Now, of course, things may be different.
Peter.
Peter.

OK separate question, so as not to confuse the issue. How do you guys practice the "new" grip with the left hand ie. the high wrist/forearm with the left hand canted down so that the thumb is pointed straight forward. I am having a hard time describing this but I think you guys know what I mean. My left hand grip is more "natural" but I know I am going to have to switch to help control the muzzle flip. If I do it slowly and deliberately I can get the correct grip, but from a draw I cannot. Any tips?
I know this is not new, but it is to me!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Yes know it well.

It was plain to me that the piss poor if any planning and the piss poor shooting on the FBI's part were the major clause of that screw up.

Then they tried hard to blame it on a single bullet not of any of the hundred plus misses.
Or the other tactical errors the agents made.

But what did did give was a lot better bullet designs

If you truely believet that the FBI did not shoot well given the cirumstance, then you have not studied the stiuation enough

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
OK separate question, so as not to confuse the issue. How do you guys practice the "new" grip with the left hand ie. the high wrist/forearm with the left hand canted down so that the thumb is pointed straight forward. I am having a hard time describing this but I think you guys know what I mean. My left hand grip is more "natural" but I know I am going to have to switch to help control the muzzle flip. If I do it slowly and deliberately I can get the correct grip, but from a draw I cannot. Any tips?
I know this is not new, but it is to me!
Peter.

Do you mean this?

http://video.google.com/videop...4584332856867071363#

I understand pro golfers manage to change their grips after ten or fifteen years, so we should all be able to do it too, right?

jwp475

If you really belive of the 100 plus shots the FBI fired and the few hits they placed on target didn't have a factor in the out come you haven't study it enough.

More shots on target sooner would have ended it faster.

Most likely the bigger factor was the poor tactics and poor planning on the FBIs part.

Yup Wink! That's the one! I was hoping to short cut the 10-15 year bit, though.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
jwp475

If you really believe of the 100 plus shots the FBI fired and the few hits they placed on target didn't have a factor in the out come you haven't study it enough.

More shots on target sooner would have ended it faster.

Most likely the bigger factor was the poor tactics and poor planning on the FBIs part.

That confrontation resulted in the most thorough testing program of handgun effectiveness ever undertaken. Only two calibers finally made the cut. The 185 grain +P Remington .45 ACP JHP and the 10 mm load (don't recall the details of the specific round).

But the CPAs and the women couldn't shoot the ten, so we now have the .40 Short & Weak.

A few years ago, I bought a case of those Remington loads prior to the advent of the Golden Saber (which I wouldn't buy because of the preposterous name)and still carry them in my 1911. They provide excellent penetration.

That gunfight just proves Jeff Cooper's philosophy that you use a handgun to fight your way to a rifle. Handgun "stopping power" is a myth.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
jwp475

If you really belive of the 100 plus shots the FBI fired and the few hits they placed on target didn't have a factor in the out come you haven't study it enough.

More shots on target sooner would have ended it faster.

Most likely the bigger factor was the poor tactics and poor planning on the FBIs part.

Platt was hit with a 9mm bullet in the right bicept, the bullet entered the chest cavity and stopped short of the heart. This shot hit Platt before he had hit any one. Had the bullet reached the heart the fight would have ended without any major casuslities to the FBI. Matrix was hit early in the fight under the left eye, this bullet stopped against the vertibrae and did not incapacitate.

Platt was hit at least 5 times before Mireless fired the shotgun into him and then emptied his back-up revolver.

Have you ever benn in a fire fight such as the one the FBI was involved in? Shoot at a moving target that takes cover and shoots back is not an easy endeavor. Yet every time Platt exposed himself he was hit.

Yes I have read alot about the fight including the forensic report that I pictured above

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
jwp475

If you really believe of the 100 plus shots the FBI fired and the few hits they placed on target didn't have a factor in the out come you haven't study it enough.

More shots on target sooner would have ended it faster.

Most likely the bigger factor was the poor tactics and poor planning on the FBIs part.

That confrontation resulted in the most thorough testing program of handgun effectiveness ever undertaken. Only two calibers finally made the cut. The 185 grain +P Remington .45 ACP JHP and the 10 mm load (don't recall the details of the specific round).

But the CPAs and the women couldn't shoot the ten, so we now have the .40 Short & Weak.

A few years ago, I bought a case of those Remington loads prior to the advent of the Golden Saber (which I wouldn't buy because of the preposterous name)and still carry them in my 1911. They provide excellent penetration.

That gunfight just proves Jeff Cooper's philosophy that you use a handgun to fight your way to a rifle. Handgun "stopping power" is a myth.

Explain how one "fights his way to get a rifle". One agent was shot when trying to get his long gun out of the car. One fights with what one has.

The FBI was looking for a scape goat to cover up for their poor planning,poor tactis and poor shooting.

Having read the tests and studied the results.

I decided that they came up with a set of standards that that if a bullet would do this that and other things.

The bad things that happened in the 86 shoot would not have happened

Not one that proved stopping power one way or the other.

It did get he bullet manufactors to move the design of bullets ahead to where we are today.

The 40S&W has proved it self to be highly effective defensive rd. Loaded with good ammo not the frist poorly designed 180 grs for it. The best 135gr thru 165 gr is where the 40 shines.

The newer 180s are now making some good head way also.

Remington has done good things with the golden saber they are a very good bullet that has been inproved over time.

They are a very good defensive bullet you are limiting your self just because of a name.

All caibers of center fire handgun ammo have improved bullet preformance in the last 25 years.

Due impart to the FBI and other studies on Handgun stopping power.

Their were many mistakes made that day and one of them was not having long guns at the ready for the passinger agents.

quote:

Their were many mistakes made that day and one of them was not having long guns at the ready for the passinger agents.

Yea, some long guns would of significantly altered the conditions on the ground that day. Yet, local PD still had to go raid the local gunstore for longguns during that little incident in North Ridge. Although it's now changing, for years it amazed me how many law enforcement officials failed to appreciate the benefits of having long guns outside their special tactical units.

I believe that training should make the shooter, or LEO, a more complete shooter than just the simple front sight training. The reason I say it is because of distance to perp. I guarantee you that if I am within 15 feet of you and decide to attack, you will never get a chance to see the front sight. The departments I worked with finally added a component of point, or instinctive, shooting after we proved this time and time again. The point shooting is much better for very close quarters defense. It is now taught along with the front sight tactics.

The revealing incident was when, in the airsoft drills, I attacked the officer without warning from 21 feet, pinned his gun to his leg, as he drew, where he shot himself 8 times. We also added a section on defense before draw. Some of the officers did not think they needed to move in order to get to their guns safely. They just stood there and tried to draw on an incoming attacker.

If you just train "front sight, front sight, front sight" how do you train for when you can not get to the front sight?

I was carried a patrol rifle in late 70's went to some of the frist patrol rifle rated training in the state.

I convinced the dept to put rifles in all the patrol vehicles in 1980.

I then went to work for a stste dept that only had shotguns and still only has about 50% of their officers armed with rifles.

I have seen deptments issue ARs then limit them with 10 round mags.

The polical battle continues in many places.

jwp475

Considering I seen animals in the same size range of Platt get their chest cavity turn to mush and still travel and funtion for many seconds after being shot.

The idea that he would have just given up fight because the bullet hit is heart is BS.

Just read a few Medal of Honor accounts and see how much a shot up determined person can do.

The facts that we had agents empty their guns and not hit any thing,that there were over a hundred missed rounds. Didn't have bearing on the out come of the fight is a total cover up by the FBI for piss poor preformance.

I have too read all the accounts and the book you have posted. I have come to diffarnt conclusion.

Poor planning, poor tactics and poor shooting where major causes in the way it turned out.

Not the fact that one bullet out of a well over a hundreds rounds fired by the FBI was to blame.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
OK separate question, so as not to confuse the issue. How do you guys practice the "new" grip with the left hand ie. the high wrist/forearm with the left hand canted down so that the thumb is pointed straight forward. I am having a hard time describing this but I think you guys know what I mean. My left hand grip is more "natural" but I know I am going to have to switch to help control the muzzle flip. If I do it slowly and deliberately I can get the correct grip, but from a draw I cannot. Any tips?
I know this is not new, but it is to me!
Peter.

Do you mean this?

http://video.google.com/videop...4584332856867071363#

I understand pro golfers manage to change their grips after ten or fifteen years, so we should all be able to do it too, right?

Excellent video.
That is the correct way to hold an fire a gun.
Spend time dry firing before going to the range.

Cool I would not say its new. we taoght high on the gun squared off to the target. 30 plus years ago then went to the weaver.

Now in the last 5 years ago the trend in going back the other way

One of th reasons given was to square off again was to present more of your body armor to the bad guys

It is what ever stance won the latest match that is the lastest and greatest. The guy teaching is is hot now if some onre beats him then that persons style will be the next latest and greatist.

I have shot and use both with paractice they both work. I shoot the weaver and it has worked very well for me. I made the switch back in the early 80's.

Pick the one that works the best 4 you and go with it.

P dog, my take away from this "new" method is the fact that there is tension in the left forearm due to the left hand "pointing downward" so that the thumb is pointing horizontally. This tension seems to minimize muzzle flip, and the fact that the left hand does most of the gripping, leaves the right hand to do only one thing, operate the trigger! That is the attraction for me.
Peter.

Peter

When I look at my style and my grip on the gun I have been doing, teaching mostly that for years. Worked well for me.

Just that now some one made a video and is doing well with it.

New to some but not others.

quote:

I believe that training should make the shooter, or LEO, a more complete shooter than just the simple front sight training. The reason I say it is because of distance to perp. I guarantee you that if I am within 15 feet of you and decide to attack, you will never get a chance to see the front sight. The departments I worked with finally added a component of point, or instinctive, shooting after we proved this time and time again. The point shooting is much better for very close quarters defense. It is now taught along with the front sight tactics.

The revealing incident was when, in the airsoft drills, I attacked the officer without warning from 21 feet, pinned his gun to his leg, as he drew, where he shot himself 8 times. We also added a section on defense before draw. Some of the officers did not think they needed to move in order to get to their guns safely. They just stood there and tried to draw on an incoming attacker.

If you just train "front sight, front sight, front sight" how do you train for when you can not get to the front sight?

Larry,

You example brings up interesting points but it is not really related to the issue of "front sight, front sight, front sight".

You were going to be able to trap the officer's weapon to his leg whether or not he is going to be focusing on his front sight or not.

You mention 15 ft, hell it might be 20 or 25 feet if your weapon is in an ankle holster or 30 feet for a female whose weapon is in a purse.

If I was talking to you and you were within in 6 feet and had the need to shoot you I would not draw my weapon into a normal shooting position and extend my arms and shoot you. I would shoot from what has been referred to as the "wrist on hip" or now as the "withdrawl" position which is rocking the gun to horizontal and firing as soon as I clear the holster.

The actual teaching technique these days is a draw from the holster that starts with immediately bringing the gun horizontal from the holster and punching it forward as you bring it up to eye level as you start to lower your center of gravity (also reducing your target area) so that you can fire at anytime and given that your need to fire immediately likely has to do with the proximity of your assailant, the technique will result in a "hit". None of that is inconsistent or in conflict with also saying/thinking "front sight front sight".

I don't think you are suggesting if I am rolling around on the ground with an assailant who is beating the dog snot out of me, I am not going to deploy a weapon and deliver a contact wound because I can't "find" my front sight.

Movement or tactics pre and post shooting are very different issues than remembering to "know" where your front sight is and training your self on "front sight front sight front sight".

If your within 15 feet of me and charge armed with an edged or impact weapon, the first thing I have to think about is moving followed by shooting. Even if I shot first you likely have enough oxygenated blood and momentum to stick that knife in me or crack head my head with a baseball bat.

I do strongly disagree with teaching "point or instinctive" shooting with the arm extended. We used to teach that and I highly disagree with it because you are now creating an environment where the shooter's mind has to make some "decision" about:

1. Oh my assailant is at 20 feet and stationary find my sight.

or

2. Oh 15 feet and closing no sights

or

3. Oh within 5 feet wrist on hip.

I strongly believe in the technique I described and thinking front sight front sight and if I have to fire immediately because the target is close I will be on target because of the mechanics of my technique.

Very true Mike That is why one can not just rely on one technique One has to train to realise when to change or do something differnt. It might be shooting one handed,with your reaction hand ect.

It might not be drawing and shooting if the guy is on top of you might be only able to get to your knife,pepper spray , biting his finger off,throwing sand in his face ect.

I have been told a lot that I don't fight fair.
I just say your right I fight to win and not get hurt.

Training, preplanning (what if this happens what am I going to do) goes a long ways towards winning.

I know one thing Todd Jarrett is very good at shooting steel plates.

That he could have some good ideas on how to win IPSC matches.

That one could pick up some techniques that could be useful.

Watch him learn from him steal anything that could be useful try it and if it works use it.

Don't disagree p dog. The interesting about IPSC is that it has brought about a whole bunch of professional shooters. These guys spend their time trying to figure out ways to shoot better, faster and more accurately. Why, well because that's how they make their living! So, I have no problems looking to them for tips on how to improve. Havn't really done this before but now, with YouTube I can see stuff that I would otherwise have to pay for!!!
Peter.

Todd Jarret teaches to square up to the target for better accuracy, nothing to do with body armor

jwp475 that could very well be true but in the LEO cricles we did it to have more armor facing the bad guys.

Lots of cops were getting shot in the arm pit area not covered by their vests.

Haveing been invovled in fights with people trying to kill or cause me great harm. Its not always possible to square off.

He is a great IPSC stooter no dought he has trained himself to win matches. He would clean my clock in a ISPC match. IPSC matchs have rules he does very well by them.

I have survide and retired, the ones that have tried to harm me ended up in the hospital.

quote:

I have survide and retired

That's a WIN in my book.

Mike, you and I agree. I just brought it up because to that point it appeared you were saying front sight only. What I call point shooting, or instinctive, is the same thing you mentioned as draw and go horizontal with the gun. I would not suggest it with an "extended arm" either.

On the ground, I fight like p dog shooter, and you...to win, period. I don't believe there is a such thing as a fair fight from my side. I will do what it takes to win, to the best of my ability, whatever that takes.

Good discussion. BTW, another thing that really bothers me is there is a local department that believes long guns are best kept in the trunk.

I think the shortage of FBI Long Guns in the fight, was a major factor in the outcome of the fight.

If Platt took the same hit from a 5.56MM, that Dove scored with his 9MM Winchester Silver Tip, would the fight have gone on for Platt?

A long gun on the floor of the back seat, or locked in the trunk, when the bullets are flying is not helpful.

If you are going out specifically to stake out for this level of BG's, then why wouldn't you have a long gun, back up gun, armor on and extra ammo, notify local PD ahead of time, etc?

Some of the agents were shooting from 35-40 yds away (across the street, Manozzi).

I am not impressed with the % of hits v. shots fired by the FBI.

I too have the above mentioned book and accompanying DVD.

I don't know what was worse, the tactics, or the marksmanship.

In close up short range pistol shooting, concentrating on the front sight works quite well. When I shot a lot of bowling pins, I picked up a lot of speed by locking on the front sight as the gun was coming up, picking up the target and firing. Won a lot too!

Todd has trained quite a few Delta types since 9.11.

His videos are worth their weight in gold imo.

Most defense shooting happens at 20' or less. That's the other side of the room.

If your gun works for you, it should point where you're looking. Practice shooting at a silhouette target from 7 paces (20'). Look at the target, not your gun. Practice, practice, practice.

Masad Ayoob preaches that you need to practice "presentation" -- You'd be damned surprised how getting at your gun gets all fussy and messed up if you don't practice getting at it.

MIKE, you left out the fact that their seems to be a awful lot of experts, who most likely have never had much in the way of real training and never been in several gun fights.

If the FBI would have had a couple of semi-auto rifles and been armed with Glock 10mm pistols they would have not got their A$$ in a sling. Now all this is taken for granted that they can in fact hit their targets.

quote:

Originally posted by Blue Dog:
MIKE, you left out the fact that their seems to be a awful lot of experts, who most likely have never had much in the way of real training and never been in several gun fights.

You continue to insult the members here and then you keep coming back. Perhaps, you need your own web site, since you are in a league of your own. In all my years on here I have never seen anyone make so many enemies, so fast. Congratulations on your acheivement.

If the FBI would have had a couple of semi-auto rifles and been armed with Glock 10mm pistols they would have not got their A$$ in a sling.

14. The Glock 20 format was not in existence in 1986, maybe that is why they did not use the G20, nor the Phased Plasma rifle in 40 Watt Range either. More quality information from Blue Dog.

Now Cold Zero don't be

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Don't disagree with any of the above especially that there has been no really good training exercise that can simulate actual combat.

The best that you can really do is use "proxies" during training and continue to focus on good fundamentals under simulated stress and you have a very good chance that you will survive the real life engagement.

To be clearer, I am not suggesting that you must have a "perfect" sight picture but that if you have a clear picture of the the front sight and "know" the front sight is on the portion of the target you want to hit, you are going to be in very good shape at combat distances and will have very good "combat accuracy".

Peter, the link seem to be broke.

mike, how would you rate cowboy action shooting as practice. You attempt to go fast, you have to hit multiple torso sized targets and you do have some emotional pressure. Of course, the steel does not shoot back and you do not have to reload --- unless using a 1911 in wild bunch class.

Cold Zero......Yes we all know the Glock 20 in 10 mm was not around, however the 10mm was around and that is my pont. The FBI canned that project because of women who could not shoot the pistol. The Smith & Wesson developed to damn much recoil for those little guys (small hands!) that came into the FBI at that time period. The only insult is to those like yourself, who profess to know it all and don't know jack crap from beans.

Rothke.......Now that is a real brilliant deduction! You must draw your pistol and practice doing so before you fire your pistol.....Dah!

Getting at your gun gets all "fussy" & "messed" up! (Only if your a ROOKIE with a pistol) for crying out loud.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Now Cold Zero don't be

I have now lost count of how many long time members have called the Blue Dog a troll. Has to be an A.R. record.

quote:

Originally posted by Blue Dog:

If the FBI would have had a couple of semi-auto rifles and been armed with Glock 10mm pistols

Clearly you did not know the G20 was not around, or you would not have made the above assinie comment.