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One can see why practice and mental mine set could save ones life. https://www.thetruthaboutguns....down-hooded-shooter/ The West Freeway Church of Christ videos and streams its services. The camera caught the moment when a hooded man stood up, pulled a shotgun and opened fire this morning. Watch the man in black stand up at the top of the frame. CAUTION: Some might find this video disturbing: Don’t look now, but this | ||
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Thank you Col. Cooper.for the training + mindset. As to this shooting, my friend + minister (Methodist)was there at the scene 45 minutes after the shooting giving whatever help he could offer. 45 minutes the baptist ministers showed up to give solace or whatever but the point was they were not there right after the fact because they found it more prudent to stop for lunch 1st. That was a true case in point Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Any response after Law enforcement showed and secured the area. The time doesn't matter because you will be very limited in what you can do. As you can not just wander around the scene talking with people. You would most likely be more effective showing a bit later when you could actual talk with people. | |||
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Look at the video carefully. Guy seated has 3 sec. or so to get his gun out but is fumbling around and gets shot. At the end it looked like there were at least 6 armed people standing around with guns drawn. If you are going to carry you should practice dressed they way you will carry. When bad things happen they can happen very quickly. C.G.B. | |||
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I kid you not... Here in Cali, you are told to throw cans of food at a would be shooter. My wife is a teacher so she has to practice drills with Kindergarteners about what to do. I guess they think it is better to scare kids than let adults be armed to take care of the problems. https://www.nydailynews.com/ne...rs-article-1.2075972 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Exactly, the local newsman said it’s a tragedy that scarred all involved and likely to never be forgotten, obviously. It’s often after a death in the family when everyone rushes to assist immediately after, it it’s down the road while lonely and sad when that assistance is needed. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Lot to learn from this video IMHO. 1. Don't reach for a concealed weapon when the perp. is facing you with a drawn gun. You cannot win! 2. Notice the several members of the congregation who stand up and start wandering around after the first shots are fired! The fight may not be over, and has now just got a lot more complicated, especially for the other guys who are armed and looking to help. You can't control what other people do but perhaps someone could have taken charge and shouted "stay seated" or something to that effect. 3. You cannot assume that there is a single perp. You must look around for another possible assailant. Not an expert, just learning! Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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That is not always a true statement. In this case. The defender had 3.1 seconds from the time he started to draw to the time he was shot. A well trained and practice person can draw and fire and hit their target in around 1.5 seconds on the average. Some can do it in less. If you can not do that you need more practice. | |||
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Not all of us can get up to Bill Jordan's standards but with training + practice one can come close. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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And how many rounds will the bad guy pump into you in that 1.5 seconds??!! We are talking about concealed carry here. My first round time in an El Presidente is just under 1 second, but that is from an exposed holster with just the basic retention. I STILL would not draw on someone with a drawn gun at fairly close range. Peter Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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If the bad guy is shooting people or about to shoot you draw! If you’re about to be shot go down fighting! At least you can buy some time for the rest. | |||
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A lot of it is reaction times as well. If someone does something very unexpected, folks often need some time to process it. If the perpetrator expects that having a gun makes him some kind of god, just the fact that you are drawing a gun may put him in that category. If you have a sub 1 second el prez draw, you are better than most (hands raised back to threat, on sound turn and draw) and likely you would shoot before the guy realized what was happening as reaction times are on average over a second, even when you expect something to happen. That was what Bill Jordan was really proving- most folks don’t start to react until 1 second downstream. If you don’t think the guy will shoot (or will look elsewhere before shooting) or think that some sort of deescalation will have a better chance, yes not drawing while under direct observation makes sense. If the guy is a nut or determined, you might as well try and fight, what do you have to lose? | |||
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How much does the scattergun play into it? You already know he’s a but for trying to shoot up a church, but would you draw while dropping to a knee? Mr. Wilson obviously did the right thing and no two situations are the same. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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In this case none as it took the bad guy 3.1 seconds to fire. | |||
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3 seconds is a literal eternity in the art of gunfighting. Tactically he would have been better off getting his gun out while still seated in the pew, acquiring a good firing grip, press out while standing up, sight picture which at that close range can be point shot and BANG, he goes home and the homelsss guy takes the room temperature challenge. To stand and press off a shot at that range should take not more than .5 of a second. There are many lessons to be learned from this incident and this will be a teaching point at training classes to come in 2020. Cold Zero | |||
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This incident also shows how devastating Buckshot at close range really is. Cold Zero | |||
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Moving aggressivly laterally, while standing up and pressing out would also have given the security guy another .25 of a second for the active shooter to orient to his new location. There was no movement at all. Carrying small of the back while doing Armed Security work, while NOT wearing Body Armor are also significant issues. If both security guys were wearing armor, likley they would be at home with broken ribs right now. They may have even been able to stay in the fight, even after taking a load of 00 to the vest. Cold Zero | |||
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I do not think we know what the bad guys shotgun was loaded with | |||
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I watched numerous Jack Wilson interviews with various media outlets. I beleive he did mention it, or it may have been some other source. When time passes I am confident Buckshot was what he used. Cold Zero | |||
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Agree completely with PDS. If you want to work security and can't draw and make a hit in less than 3 seconds from a rig that is not even a duty rig, you have no business being in the Armed Security industry. 3 seconds is an eternity, even from a Level 3 retention duty rig. Cold Zero | |||
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Over the decades I did a lot of draw timing the best I ever could on a regular basics was .7 seconds to the shot and hitting the target. That was using a thumb break. As I went to more secure holsters the slower it became. But I found the extra security worth it. Over the decades I know of more then one handgun hitting the ground during physical activity. My last Level 3 holster I carried at work I could get consistent draws in the 1.7 to 2 seconds. Before we issued level 3 holsters the standard one had to meet was 1.5 every one could meet that and most of the time less. The least practice ones might need a couple of tries. But most every one did it the first time. I timed a lot of qualifications where that standard was meet. | |||
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what'd the good guy use to put the POS down with? they not saying? | |||
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Several sources said he used a Sig pistol in .357 Sig | |||
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POS took one Grape shot from: Sig P229-.357 Sig Speed is fine, accuracy is Final. Only hits count. Cold Zero | |||
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While there is a lot to learn from this event and some mistakes were made. Let's not overlook the two security officers who were killed. The distraction they caused, took the focus of the active shooter off the Congregation saving numerous lives and also allowed Jack Wilson to perform without taking incoming rounds. These men should be commended and never forgotten for their selfless actions. Cold Zero | |||
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Buckshot or not;even #8 shot is devistating from that range. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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I watched the video several times. I think the response was remarkable. I deal with truck wreck cases all the time and the experts say reaction time is at least 1.5 seconds, when you are driving. And that's something you are expecting to see, not someone pulling a shotgun in a church. That's the time before you can even start to respond. And until the first shot was fired, who would have properly interpreted an unimaginable situation. I've heard he was shot in six seconds, which is really fast. But if you believe that from the time he pulled his shotgun until he fired the first shot was 3.1 seconds, and you factor in reaction time, the shooter was dead within 1.4 seconds after it would have been humanly possible, not counting the muzzle velocity and distance. | |||
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I agree a trained person, thru quality repitition and practice is able to draw from a Level 2 or 3 Duty grade (Read Safariland) retention holster in 1.5-2.0 seconds and get a hit on target, if that can't be done, then more time on range is needed. Cold Zero | |||
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Practice + mindset is the key. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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The pastor here at the Williamson County Cowboy Church has no problem with armed parishioners. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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Texas requires specialized training for church security personnel, which Jack Wilson as a state certified trainer was providing to the church security personnel. However, training scenarios vs actually facing an armed confrontation scenario will typically result in different “first timer” reactions. Proper reaction in training scenarios may easily result fumbled reaction when, as they say, the proverbial “shit hits the fan” as happened with the first security member shot. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Not always first timer reactions, it cqn happen any time reaction, every event is a different scenario...I know cases wherein the meek turned into heros, and the toughest of men fell apart..When it comes to dieing ones reaction can just be a roll of the dice..Im not being philisophical its based on 43 years of LE on the Texas border and Mexico.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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About 15 years ago at the Austin Gun Show, there was an A.D. I just hit the deck without thinking + thought about ricochets, etc. at the same time but not really. When it happens you react, after the fact, you start to put together thoughts. Never mistake motion for action. | |||
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