The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Personal Defence And Concealed Carry Do you carry your 1911 locked and loaded?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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The title says it all. Do you carry a 1911 loaded and cocked? I'm considering switching from a revolver to a 1911 and I have some concern about an accidental discharge if I'm carrying it cocked with a round in the chamber. Yeah, I know it isn't of much use if you need it in a hurry but have to weigh the chances of an accidental discharge vs not having the time to work the slide in the unlikely event I need it. Any thoughts? | ||
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The 1911 ?? There are THREE distinct things necessary to fire a 1911. Depress backstrap safety Depress thumb safety Pull trigger For a gun like a Glock just ONE Pull trigger ! Carrying a pistol with empty chamber is known as HALF LOADED. Do you ask the BG to wait a minute while you load your gun ?? In addition trrying to load a pistol under duress invites accidental discharge. | |||
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Well, I don't carry any of my 1911s. However I do carry a HK USP40 cocked and locked. The only thing I would say is to make sure you only use a holster that has a strap that goes between the hammer and slide. Do that and you will be just as safe if not safer than any other gun. And ditto on Glocks being unsafe. | |||
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+1 | |||
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Woody I have been shooting/carrying a 1911 since 1966, I was in the 9th grade. Later I carried one as a duty gun, while it was allowed, I am now retired and I am wearing a 1911 right now. I have always carried one "cocked and locked", ie. round in the chamber, hammer back, safety on. I carried a LW Commander in my pocket, Cocked and Locked for several years in Uniform, through foot chases, fence jumping, fighting "suspects", etc. no problems. However, I have known and worked with several highly trained individuals, that were not comfortable with "cocked and locked". This is something you must decide for yourself. I also used a couple of Glock 9mm's for several years, [because of the "rules" not by choice], and I consider a Cocked and Locked 1911 to be safer than a Glock... Much safer. But I never had ANY problems with the Glocks. Carrying a 1911 Cocked and locked is safer than carrying one with the chamber loaded and the hammer down... IF you do not feel comfortable carrying a 1911 Cocked and Locked, then you should carry another kind of handgun... IMHO of course. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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How true. The last thing I'd ever attempt to imply is that, if you do choose to carry a different handgun, that somehow makes you inferior. I love the J-frame Smith. A Model 60 suits me fine. But if you're gonna carry a 1911, carry it the way John Moses intended it to be carried. | |||
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Ok, so locked and loaded is the way to do it. Next question. Do you leave it that way until the next trip to the range or do you unload it every day? And thanks for the responses. This is an important issue for me. | |||
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I generally put the handgun up when I'm at home as I have a rifle or shotgun handy. | |||
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Woody, these are very good, relevant questions. I'm with CFS regarding home defense. Rifle or shotgun. Recently we had an informatiive discussion on various carry techniques here: http://forums.accuratereloadin...1036801/m/6251092051 I personally believe there is no one-size-fits-all solution. A single guy who only owns a 1911, and lives in a high crime neighborhood will probably find a different solution to someone with 5 kids, 5 shotguns, and a calm peaceful place. In one instance locked and cocked 24/7 might be a reasonable solution. In the other, it might not. It's important to consider all the risk of your chosen carry style. How many times a day will I have to load/unload it. Does it have a de-cocker. An I going to shoot myself in the foot decocking it. How fast can it get it into action, vs how safe is it in the chosen ready state. Is there kids around, and if so, how well trained ar they, and how does your chosen method of storage affect you reaction time? Is storage, unstorage, loading, and unloading such a pain that you will quit carrying it? IMO these are just a few of the things you need to look at when you decide what is right for YOU. | |||
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Carried cocked and locked for almost 18yrs. Went to an XDM for alot of reasons...lets just say "world climate being what it is". Still qualify w/it every year...it's in the safe, cocked and locked w/two extra mags. right beside it. Never "stored" it any other way. Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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Thanks for an excellent, thought provoking link, Antelope Sniper. It really raises the questions that must be answered to put it all in perspective. Still don't know what I'm going to do but at least I've got some good points to ponder. And I'll continue to carry the wheel gun for at least the near future. | |||
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I also carry cocked and locked and a good holster also adds another safety factor when carrying this way. | |||
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I thought I would jump in here and share my thoughts on the subject, and yes I do carry in condition 1 and recommend it to everyone that carries a 1911. First off if you are uncomfortable with carrying in condition 1 do this, carry the weapon empty around your house for a week cocked and locked and see how many times the hammer falls accidentally. That should help you feel better about the safety of carrying in condition 1. To respond to people that claim 1911’s are unsafe because they need to be carried cocked and locked, I ask them if they believe all shotguns and AR’s are unsafe as well. After all these weapons are always carried with (Assuming there is a round chambered, and why wouldn’t there be), the hammer back and the safety on yet they don’t have near the reputation of the 1911 for being an “Unsafe” firearm. In the end if you don’t feel comfortable carrying a 1911 in condition 1 then IMHO you should look into a different weapon system. There are plenty of other good weapons out there that don’t require hammer back carry. Good luck with your decision on what and how you want to carry and stay safe out there. | |||
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I strongly suggest that anyone asking this question get some 1911-specific training at Gunsite or a similar, quality school before carrying it--then ask yourself that question. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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A small dimple in the face of the thumb safety inline with the plunger makes accidental movement of the thumb safety less probable. Use high quality parts made by mfgs like Wilson Combat, Cylinder & Slide etc........ | |||
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+2... Cocked and Locked is the way to carry the 1911. I leave mine ready to go 24/7 _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Which I did.  A number of people, myself included, found after carrying a M1911 cocked and locked, that somehow the thumb safety gets bumped off. Then you are carrying cocked. I did not like that. Sure the grip safety is supposed to save the day, but I never felt comfortable with that hammer cocked back and no safety on. The grip safety is not a sure thing. People have grabbed their M1911’s but found their grip position was not holding the grip safety down. A nice consistent grip is not 100% guaranteed in all situations. You may also find that you accidentally bumped the safety “on” when you wanted it “off”. This only happened once to me, only punching paper, but it did happen. Happens enough at Thunder Ranch that Clint Smith mentioned it in an article. Said “Nationally ranked” shooters have bumped their safeties on at his facility. Incidentally the safety is simply a sear blocking safety. See picture. I have been told if the hammer hooks are worn, off angle due to a poor trigger job, and the hammer falls forward, it will wipe the safety off. Then if you are lucky your half cock will catch the hammer before you have an accidental discharge.  | |||
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Don't you need a screwdriver, hammer and punch? | |||
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screwdriver or allen wrench to take off the grip screws Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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Except that the newer Colts also have a firing pin block that will only be disengaged if the trigger is pulled. Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, Varmint Hunters' Assn., ARTCA, and American Legion. "An armed society is a polite society" --Robert Heinlein via Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Caveat Emptor: Don't trust *Cavery Grips* from Clayton, NC. He is a ripoff. | |||
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how long does it take to cock a glock? | |||
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Agreed, and most "modern" designs use a firing pin block. I don't know when it started, but my P38 has one. The firing pin block on the M1911 is a retrofit, a "band-aid" solution, the design did not originally come with one, and Colt had to figure out how to install a firing pin block without a complete action redesign. Retrofits seldom make a system better. The series 80 firing pin block has its own issues, the smallest of which is additional parts and it is difficult to reassemble the sear, disconnect, and series 80 parts all at the same time. I always drop something. The most serious compliant is that will will lead to a Category One failure: loss of mission! I have had the series 80 firing pin block drop down during slide cycle. Once down it prevents the slide from going into battery. You have to puzzle out the problem and use something to get it back in position. In the mean time, well, lets hope you were only punching paper in the mean time. | |||
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First I do not use allen screws for the grips. You can get the firing pin out with the hammer strut. You can use the firing pin, or hammer strut as the "punch" for removing the pin holding the mainspring housing in place, and you can use the flat sear spring to remove the grip screws. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Woody,several answers here.#1 if you are NOT comfortable carrying in condition! then just don't.I do but I am very familiar with my piece;that being said I with refer to 'Antelope's' comments as to personal usage. My children are now all grown (+usually gone) but when they were small I would not keep a loaded revolver in the house (D.A.) You will not hide anything from the kids in your house,+ sure we raise them right,etc. but they have friends,etc.I found that keeping a 1911 in the bedside drawer loaded with nothing chambered worked well for me.The children were not physically strong enough to work the slide.As to your concern on the magazine spring tension,it is not "advisable" to leave a spring under tension,however I do so on a regular basis + have had 100% performance from magazines that were left loaded since WW11.Still to each his own. | |||
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100 years of experience have shown that carrying a cocked and locked 1911 is fine. | |||
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Woody, Here is how I carry and handle a 1911. I always carry it cocked and locked. If I have a 1911 that its purpose is in standby ready, but not on my person, it is still cocked and locked. Such as in a preplaced position in the house, in a go bag, that has a "holster" to hold it in a fixed position, etc. When I put a 1911 in a safe, or I am transporting it in a gun rug, or any other condition where it is not in stand by ready, then I unload the chamber, and put the hammer down, and I leave a loaded magazine in the gun. There are only a very few times that I ever have a 1911, with a round in the chamber, and the hammer down. The bottom line is, IF cocked and locked makes you uncomfortable, a 1911 is NOT for you. Pick other type of 45 ACP, a H&K, SIG, Glock, etc. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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+1 It seems "scary" but all of the wonder polymer guns have their stiker/hammer cocked-and-locked 'out of sight' so that one worries about it. Kinda' funny really. | |||
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I did a test once upon a time. I called it "Cocked and Unlocked" I took a Browning High Power. I had a loaded magazine, the hammer cocked, the thumb safety off. The High Power had no grip safety which is why I picked it over a 1911. I carried the high Power, "loose", that is not in a holster. At every chance I drug it around by the trigger guard, carried it in a bag or briefcase, stuffed it under the fold dwn jump seat in my car. Stuck it in my belt, kept it under my pillow... I did everything to get the hammer drop except grip the handgun properly and pull the trigger for over 2 months. This was around 1975... The hammer never dropped. I have never worried about cocked and locked since. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Here is another "thing". If a person is not fairly well trained, in the use of a semiautomatic handgun, I recommend a revolver for civilian concealed carry. IF you have not been to a good school, do not have a LOT of IPSC/IDPA competition experience, then you will be better off with a revolver IMHO. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Thanks for all the well thought out responses. You have certainly answered my question. While I have shot a 1911 for many years my carry weapon has always been a revolver. After careful consideration of your comments I'm going to stick with the revolver. It just feels more comfortable from a safety standpoint. | |||
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I would add, with just a little practice, it's possible to shoot a Smith & Wesson extremely accurately in double action. Not quite as accurately as in single action, maybe. But more than accurately enough. That's the cool thing about those revolvers; they have nice triggers. And if they don't come from the factory with nice triggers, it's not too hard to find someone who can make it nice. Although it's getting harder. | |||
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I have been carrying various permutations of John Browning's 1911 for about forty-four years now; the last fifteen or more concealed. Cocked and Locked is the way he designed it. That's good enough for me... Rich | |||
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I carry 1911s now, because I shoot USPSA Open division, just about, every weekend, and its the closest platform to my competition gun - HOWEVER If competition is not a concern of yours, take a look at a HK P7 PSP. They are a heck of a gun for the price, and darn near the ideal CCW gun. They are completely inert, until cocked w. the squeeze cocker, at which point you have a single-action trigger, all you have to do is release the squeeze cocker to go back to being inert. Around kids, depending on the situation, the safest thing is probably to keep the guns locked up, except for the one you wear on yourself. Kids can be taught surprisingly early on not to open the gun cabinet, or the top drawer of the night stand, etc. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. | |||
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I am definitely not an authority in this area, but do have an honest qestion. I have been told numerous times, by various people, that the Glock is NOT cocked until bigger part of the two trigger parts is pulled...and then it is the little part in the middle of the bigger part that actually unlocks the sear and releases the striker. So when the Glock is lying there with no part of the trigger being pulled, it isn't cocked. Is that not correct? BTW, I prefer both the SIG P-220 and the S&W 645 to the 1911. I carry them both on occasion, loaded, but with the hammers down. As they are both double action, I still only have to unlock the safeties and pull the triggers to fire them. Same as with a M1911, except I don't have to squeeze a grip safety. It may not BE safer, but I feel safer doing it that way, so that's what I do. I used to carry a cocked and locked M1911 when on the Menlo Park PD, but didn't like doing it. In fact, I liked it so little that when I was off duty and riding as a back-up with some other officer (which I did a lot, as I was single and didn't have to go home at 1 a.m.) much of the time I actually carried a .45 Colt "Peacemaker" with the hammer down between chambers. Plenty powerful for most situations, quick to use, and felt safer to me. And as I had both .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders for that consecutively serial numbered pair of Colts, I could choose the longer .45 ACP cylinder (longer cylinder freebore, shorter cartridge) if I wanted to be able to exchange ammunition with other officers. The only thing I don't really like about the SIG P-220s or the S&W 645 .45s are the "hammer-drop" de-cockers. Those make me uneasy too, so I just have a small bit of saddle-skirt leather which I temporarily drop between the hammers and firing pins when using the hammer drops. In my personal car my routine is I just leave my Glock 20 there all the time, ready to go, with two spare mags fully chock-a-block full of Black Talons. Every one has his own preferences. That's fine with me. I just operate at my own comfort level. Edited to add: When I was an airborne MP, we had M1911-A1s issued to us, but we weren't allowed to carry them in condition 1. We carried them loaded without one in the chamber, and the hammer down. We WERE taught how to use the GI hip holster to load & cock them one handed as we drew them, if needed. That worked faster than one could yell HALT! | |||
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I agree, there are no flies on a S&W revolver. I have used one as a work gun for many years, and even today I sometimes carry them as my primary when traveling going to a Hunt. Also IF you can live with a 9mm the H&K P7 is an excellent choice. I had one for several years. It was the most accurate 9mm I have ever fired. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Yes and no. Glocks are not double action (try dry firing yours twice). The striker is in a sort of half cock position before the trigger is pulled. Anyway the safety concern with Glocks is that the trigger pull is only 5 lbs with no external safety. For comparison the military specifications for the 1911 is 5.5 to 6.5 lbs. while most double action pistols are 12 lbs or more. So essentially carrying a Glock is about the same as carrying a cocked 1911 with the safety off. I do realize that Glocks have a longer trigger pull, and more internal safeties, but I would still feel much safer carrying a 1911 than a Glock. | |||
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Thanks for the endorsement. Coming from a man of your experience, it means a lot. If I could only have one handgun, I could do quite nicely with a 3" barreled M60 with adjustable sights. If I could have two, I'd also have a M640 Centennial. Since I can own as many guns as I like I also have owned, do own, and greatly admire the 1911. In both .45 and .38 super. I would certainly be confident carrying one, if I practiced more. Since I'm no longer in a profession that requires me (admittedly, only intermittently at the time) to carry a sidearm and now that I'm self-employed, I find myself preferring the revolver as my time is limited. But practice is still essential. For several reasons. Some people who are reloaders prefer the revolver over the semi-auto because the revolver doesn't sling brass promiscuously over the landscape. What you don't want to do is get in the habit of carefully ejecting the brass from the cylinder into your waiting hand to preserve them for later use. The Navy taught a technique I still use, back when they issued S&W J-frames to aircrew (for reasons I could never comprehend). You shoot your five shots, then with your weak hand you reach up and grasp the cylinder between your index and middle finger on one side, thumb on the other. Push the cylinder latch forward and then push the cylinder out from the frame. Now that you've got the revolver firmly under control, let go of the stocks, point the muzzle skyward, and with your shooting hand slam your palm down on the ejector rod. That will clear the empties. You may have to look a little harder to find them, but you're at least not developing a habit that can get you killed. The Navy issued spare ammo, but just in loops on the holster. I use speed loaders. If you use speed loaders, never ever reload by any other method. And you have to practice with them. Fortunately, you can get dummy rounds and practice at home.
As a civilian I can live with the 9mm. When I was in the Navy, my problem would have been the same as the one I had with the .38 Special J-frames; it's ineffective in hardball ammo. But JHPs will do wonders. Have you ever had the chance to shoot the SiG P210?  It was the Swiss military Pistole M49, in service from 1949 to 1975. I've heard it's consistently the most accurate service pistol ever made. Which explains why it sells for several thousand dollars used. I've never shot the H&K P7 or the SiG, but people I've met who've shot both say the SiG is even more accurate than the P7. | |||
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I suspect some of that depends on whether you're shooting a civilian market P210 (which were mostly sold as match guns) or a military one. If you want real accuracy in a 9MM, get someone to make you a custom 2011 in one. I shoot an SVI in 38 super for open, and its quite accurate. And, about the same price as one of the new 210s. 9MM, loaded "Major" has gotten more popular, so most of the custom builders have now built a few. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. | |||
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John Browning did not design his gun to be carried cocked and locked. If you look at his previous designs, one of which is the M1905, John Browning designed his early auto pistols to be carried round in the chamber and hammer down. That was the same for the M1911. You thumb cocked the thing like a Colt SAA, and you lowered the hammer like a Colt SAA. This would have been very natural to the Soldiers who carried Colt SAA's for most of their entire careers. The horse cavalry wanted the auto pistol to be made safe with one hand. Because, as they said, in case you had “an unruly horse”. There were lots of accidental discharges with auto pistols while mounted. I have a 1913 Small Arms Firing Manual. It clearly says to chamber a round in the M1911 and lower the hammer. You then put in your flap holster hammer down. There must have been enough accidental discharges that by the time you get to WWII, the instructions were to engage the safety, not pull the trigger and lower the hammer, and to holster the M1911 cocked and locked. This is where the Cooperites came up with the idea that John Browning designed the gun to be carried cocked and locked. WWII regulations clearly state after chambering a round, you are not to touch that trigger, rather you were to put the safety on and put the thing away in your flap holster. However, by the time you get to Vietnam, you did not chamber a round at all. A number of veterans have posted they were absolutely not allowed to chamber a round until they were on the ground after jump off. They were not even allowed to stick a loaded magazine in the pistol until they were on their way to the landing point. Obviously there were too many accidents with M1911’s which had a round up the spout. The pistol requirements put out in the 70's clearly show the Army had had it with single action autopistols. Anyone who submitted a single action autopistol would have been considered non responsive to the RFP. | |||
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CFS Yes I have shot the SIG P210, it is a very accurate handgun, but as you know in the American Market it is pretty obscure. Re Revolvers: For most civilian encounters, usually, you will have to shoot someone that is within conversational distance, and maybe even Danger Close, ie within touching/grappling distance. At those ranges a revolver is even a better choice than a semiauto. I always carry at least one of each... Or many times 2 revolvers...  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Personal Defence And Concealed Carry Do you carry your 1911 locked and loaded?
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