As in shotgun ammo.

I have a reason to produce a "non lethal" defense gun.
I know, the bastard needs to be shot, but the person doing the shooting (not me) probably will not pull the trigger if he/she thinks it will cause death.

So what say you;

Bean bag loads
rubber single slugs
Rubber buck shot

The target is an ex con with a bad attitude, and the shooter will be a senior citizen with no firearm experience.
The distance will be close.

I'm thinking rubber buckshot.

Looking to piss him off more.

Why do you think that shooting him a Non lethal round well stop his bad behavior. We always backed up non lethal with a lethal firearm.

Dosen't sound like what you have planned is a good idea.

If he is such a danger to another that he needs to be shot something else needs to be done.

quote:

Looking to piss him off more.

Looking to stop him from murdering the senior citizens (his parents) in question.

quote:

Why do you think that shooting him a Non lethal round well stop his bad behavior.

Just stop him long enough to send him back to prison.
The police will not do anything until he commits another crime.
Since he is probably going to be high as a kite, I question the effectiveness of pepper spray.

The trouble is it might not stop him long enough for the police to arrive.

Being high would make the chance of less then lethal less effective also. If they are not feeling pain because of drugs. It takes a lot more to stop them.

If the range is really close less then lethal can be very lethal

It can be very hard to convince people to take the appropriate when they really don't want to.

A Taser might be better, as it would be easier for a senior citizen to handle at close quarters.

Barring that, alternating loads of rubber buckshot and slugs might work best if the seniors are competent with the gun.

George

Load it with 00 buckshot and tell them it is loaded with less than lethal...which it is compared to a Predator Drone.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by Anaconda:
So what say you;

Bean bag loads
rubber single slugs
Rubber buck shot

The target is an ex con with a bad attitude, and the shooter will be a senior citizen with no firearm experience.
The distance will be close.

I'm thinking rubber buckshot.

NONE OF THE ABOVE!

If you are gonna drop the hammer, then drop the hammer! I say fill a pump 12 gauge with the following loadout. A #4 Buck in the chamber, another one in the second position, followed by 2 shells with 00 Buck and a slug in position #5.

My thought to this loadout is hit him with #4 Buck at a little distance, if he keeps coming then sort him out with the 00 Buck or you could stop him if fleeing. The slug will be a hell of a man-stopper at close range or will disable a car if needed. If you intend on shooting, shoot to kill. Warning shots tend to get people killed.

No personal experience whatsoever, but at very close range I don't think there is any such thing as non-lethal. Even blanks can kill at contact distance. OC spray +911 would probably be best bet.
C.G.B.

If you must use non-lethal deterents then get some wasp spray. It will blind the attacker until they get medical treatment, it shoots 20 - 30 feet and is effective even on a drugger. It is better than pepper spray because it shoots farther and no one is immune. A taser requires direct contact and that is out of the question. If these folks are in fear of their lives but don't want to use deadly force, they are likely going to die. At least with wasp spray the perp will be caught and prosecuted. Don't lie to them by handing them a shotgun loaded with buck-shot and tell them its non-lethal - they aren't prepared to kill and it will destroy them emotionally to do so.

quote:

If you must use non-lethal deterents then get some wasp spray. It will blind the attacker until they get medical treatment, it shoots 20 - 30 feet and is effective even on a drugger. It is better than pepper spray because it shoots farther and no one is immune.

Not really true in that you can not count on any irritant spray to stop a determined attacker. I've been OC sprayed in training it hurts, it sucks, it burns, it blinds, but it does not even begin to slow me down if I am determined to finish what I need to get a job done, nor does it do so in many documented filmed cases on folks who are pissed off or drugged up or drunk. OC spray or wasp spray does nothing to actually disable a person it only causes discomfort AKA pain compliance and you can ask any duty officer, pain compliance does not work in an alarming number of circumstances.

quote:

A taser requires direct contact and that is out of the question.

NO SIR a TASER or other ECD (Electronic control Device) does NOT require direct contact. You might be thinking of a stun gun. A TASER (Thomas A Swift Energy Rifle.. yes that is what it stands for, look it up.) fires two probes attached to a wire with a maximum range of about 29 feet. Having been "tased" also in training I can tell you that it is an extremely painful and disorienting event. It uses an electrical pulse that causes your muscles to uncontrollably contract and disrupts the signals between your CNS and your muscular system you have absolutely no control or ability to control your muscles while the the probes are pulsing. However the severity of the "tasing" depends on several factors such as, probe spread the wider the better, both probes must make contact and stick, and the build of the assailant, skinny dudes with a slight build will be less affected than big muscular people. heavily intoxicated people will be less affected than sober people. I had one officer tell me that he gave a perp 8 separate rides on taser deployment and they still had to beat the guy into submission to get him hooked up. You see after the ride is over there is no lasting effect on the perp, he can get right up and commence to being a bad guy. Use a TASER (ECD) with extreme caution and some knowledge is necessary.

quote:

If these folks are in fear of their lives but don't want to use deadly force, they are likely going to die.

That is pretty much the truth of the matter. And it's their choice to make untimatley.

I have always referred to "less than lethal" as "less than effective", but that is just me. I would recommend a slightly different course depending on the physical condition of the people involved. I would first get a dog. It will serve two purposes, one to warn and alert, and one as companionship. Even a yap dog is better than nothing. The second item is one of those "Life Alert" type devices that will make immediate contact not requiring them to actually find a phone and dial 911 under stress. THEN I would look to other methods, if necessary. I just wish they would use #4 buck, but I get it.

Surestrike you contradicted yourself.

quote:

NO SIR a TASER or other ECD (Electronic control Device) does NOT require direct contact.

Then:

quote:

both probes must make contact and stick

I get your subtle point that there is no sort of stun gun contact, but there must be direct contact, nonetheless. That makes TASERS less than effective against heavy leather jackets in some cases. Alternate aiming points are required. I have been tased and gassed (pepper sprayed) and neither is fun.

Larry by your logic a firearm is a contact weapon too. If the bullet doesn't contact the target it is harmless. If the bullet strikes a vest it may require an alternate aiming point. A contact weapon refers to something that is hand held and used to touch or strike with. Like a baton or a stun gun.

And as I mentioned ECD's are not always effective and have many flaws and should not be counted on in a defense against a lethal force threat. That is pretty much law enforcement policy nation wide.

Like I said. I get your subtle point. I was just using your words, not mine. Every weapon, by definition, must make contact, whether direct or not, to be effective.

quote:

I have always referred to "less than lethal" as "less than effective", but that is just me.

I absolutely agree with you Larry.

quote:

Originally posted by Anaconda:

quote:

Looking to piss him off more.

Looking to stop him from murdering the senior citizens (his parents) in question.

quote:

Why do you think that shooting him a Non lethal round well stop his bad behavior.

Just stop him long enough to send him back to prison.
The police will not do anything until he commits another crime.
Since he is probably going to be high as a kite, I question the effectiveness of pepper spray.

I would question the effectiveness of rubber buckshot on a criminal that is high as a kite. This will only enrage him IMHO

Surestrike,
I had been thinking of a "stun gun" and not the projectile weapon. They are capable of putting anyone down because it interupts the central nervous system. I have only seen one person (a police clip) where a person could pull the probes and keep coming.

The TASER might be a good choice but I would want something else in case it misses. After all they are not "target accurate" devices. I don't like the idea of letting him get too close to the seniors before they use it and the accurate range is limited.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:
Surestrike,
I had been thinking of a "stun gun" and not the projectile weapon. They are capable of putting anyone down because it interupts the central nervous system. I have only seen one person (a police clip) where a person could pull the probes and keep coming.

The TASER might be a good choice but I would want something else in case it misses. After all they are not "target accurate" devices. I don't like the idea of letting him get too close to the seniors before they use it and the accurate range is limited.

I have a close friend who is a Game Warden. Last year, he went on an aid call to a county sheriff deputy who was attempting to arrest a suspect. When my buddy got there, he found the sheriff keeping a distance from the perp, and he got out and took his taser out of his holster. The perp jumped into his car to take off and the sheriff let his Belgian Malinoise out to subdue the guy. The dog went through the car's open window and started chewing on the guy. The guy hit the dog across the face with a laptop computer, injuring the dog badly. The sheriff was leaning in the open window, trying to get the keys out of the ignition, and the perp cranked the wheel hard to one side and backed away, throwing the cop quite a distance from the car. He then turned his wheels toward my buddy and floored it. My buddy was going to shoot him through the windshield, but he hesitated as the car wasn't gaining any ground. As it turned out, the cars back wheels were stuck in a ditch and he couldn't go anywhere. The perp jumped out of the car to fight, so my buddy holstered his gun and pulled his taser, then shot him with the taser. He told me the guy tensed up for a few seconds, then ripped the probes out of his chest and laughed at him. He shot him with another taser load and got the same result. Finally, a third tasing dropped the guy to the ground and the dog was on him again and really chewed the crap out of the guy. When another unit finally rolled up to help, it took 3 LEOs to finally subdue the guy and get him in the back of the car.

They thought he had to be high on drugs, but he screen came back showing the guy was totally clean. Some people are just extremely mean and tough. He was an ex-con (now a convict again) who was out on probation. My buddy would have been justified in shooting him, but hesitated in part because of the F'ed up legal system we have here in California, where LEOs have to fear prosecution from the family of the 'poor' bad guy.

quote:

I had been thinking of a "stun gun" and not the projectile weapon. They are capable of putting anyone down because it interupts the central nervous system

Paul just to be clear. A stun gun is a pain compliance weapon and extremely ineffective it is hand held and does not fire probes. The TASER is in the family of ECD's that fire probes and interrupt the CNS.

As mentioned above TASER style ECD's have their issues and should NEVER be counted on to terminate a lethal force appropriate engagement.

Seems that a restraining order would be these peoples best option given the info posted

Any thoughts on rock salt?
A few doses of salt backed up with a lethal round?

I wish the OP would explain the whole situation.

Reading between the lines, it appears, a man and wife who are 65 or more, have an adult child who poses a physical threat to them.

The OP has not explained how this person has easy access to them. Nor has any details on what has been done to provide physical security (locks, lights, alarm systems, reinforced doors, barred windows etc.)

Force, deadly or not, should be a last resort, especially with a family member. Safe rooms, retreating and contact avoidance are all better alternatives.

If all else fails, taking a chance on "non-lethal" alternatives is, at best, risky.

Depending on where the confrontation takes place various weapons are appropriate. You can't take a 12 bore to the mall and a concealable 380 would not be the best choice if your front door is being battered in.
Yet, both have their place.

I'd ask the OP for a lot more background before suggesting anything.

The situation has resolved itself. The Bozo is back in jail on a parole violation and some new charges that should put him back in prison for a few years.

No innocent blood spilled.