Bill/Oregon

No. I didn't, but Trophy Room Books published a book of unedited letters that O'Connor and Keith sent each other and Keith's letters were much more literate than I expected he would be.

Bill Quimby

that was/is the difference.

Shooters who write.
Writers who shoot.

cleaning the articles/books up is what proof readers and editors do.

quote:

Bill, did you ever chance to see an unedited manuscript from Elmer Keith? I have always wondered.

Bill/Oregon: No, I didn't.

Bill Quimby

Rich, as a retired newspaper editor I can promise you that editing some writers is a joy, but other writers require some very heavy lifting.

Yes but can they tell a story?

Elmer and Bill Jordan could. A lot of these folks today can not.

BWW: Don't confuse storytelling with good writing. There is a difference.

Many of the authors mentioned at the start of this thread were tolerable storytellers, but were weak as writers.

Bill Quimby

When I worked for the NRA Publications Division I had access to Keith's original manuscripts. He was a good story teller but barely literate.

Gents,

I agree. In my embassy days, I had to edit a white papers that went to the Australian government from our defense office several times a week.

A lot of highly educated people can not write basic things like a simple request without turning into something highly incomprehensible.

I am not a rocket scientist and I am far from highly educated (regardless of what the colleges and 20 years in the military say).

Personally I don't find it difficult to write something, but to be understood and make it interesting and comprehensible is another thing.

BWW: What is it about having to communicate with written words that causes some otherwise highly intelligent folks to wander randomly and trip over themselves in a voice not at all their own?
My advice was always to be conversational, and to avoid cliches. If a reporter or writer had a problem presenting a concept, I would ask them to imagine sitting on a bench explaining it to their best friend.
Dave, this does not surprise me about Keith. He sure led an interesting life. I have read "Hell, I was there" more than once, and dip into it often.

Yes, I had to copy edit a lot of white papers for our staff of Air Force and Army Colonels and Navy Captains. We had a Marine Major, that had taught as a Navy ROTC Commander at some college in Virginia. He was exceptional, I never changed a word.

One of the O-6's was a F-14 pilot, one a artillery officer, one was a B-1 pilot, and one was a nuke missile commander. O-6 fighter pilots are probably about the cockiest people in the world.

I have known quite a few of them, and all of them have been amazing people and some of the smartest people I have ever met. Everyone of them spends a lot of time telling you that they are in charge, and walking around with a measuring stick that shows them as the tops.

I met a couple of SPECWAR Navy SEAL and Green Berets O-6's and O-5's in my day. Drastically different group of men.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Yes, I had to copy edit a lot of white papers for our staff of Air Force and Army Colonels and Navy Captains. We had a Marine Major, that had taught as a Navy ROTC Commander at some college in Virginia. He was exceptional, I never changed a word.

One of the O-6's was a F-14 pilot, one a artillery officer, one was a B-1 pilot, and one was a nuke missile commander. O-6 fighter pilots are probably about the cockiest people in the world.

I have known quite a few of them, and all of them have been amazing people and some of the smartest people I have ever met. Everyone of them spends a lot of time telling you that they are in charge, and walking around with a measuring stick that shows them as the tops.

I met a couple of SPECWAR Navy SEAL and Green Berets O-6's and O-5's in my day. Drastically different group of men.

I have worked with a lot of O-6 and higher fighter pilots. Every damn one of them treated this crusty old Major with respect. Worst attitudes I saw tended to come from high ranking enlisted and wannabe fast burner field grade officers.

As to writing, from day one of AFROTC they taught us to speak clearly and plainly. That always works. However, I didn't know anyone still subscribed to a print magazine.

When Precision Shooting went away, so did my interest in print magazines. Rifle and Handloader quit having useful information for me in the early 2000s. I do get American Rifleman electronically, but I rarely read it anymore.

Since these internet forums became reality here in front of me as I glance at tv this evening I have read little from print media.

While the Rifleman and Am. Hunter comes here as part of the life NRA memberships I hardly glance at them.

Nor do I subscribe to other print media like the local newspaper, magazines of any kind etc.

We 'look up' almost everything we want to know here on the Internet.

It's not the print writers. It's this new to us all, the internet!

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Yes, I had to copy edit a lot of white papers for our staff of Air Force and Army Colonels and Navy Captains. We had a Marine Major, that had taught as a Navy ROTC Commander at some college in Virginia. He was exceptional, I never changed a word.

One of the O-6's was a F-14 pilot, one a artillery officer, one was a B-1 pilot, and one was a nuke missile commander. O-6 fighter pilots are probably about the cockiest people in the world.

I have known quite a few of them, and all of them have been amazing people and some of the smartest people I have ever met. Everyone of them spends a lot of time telling you that they are in charge, and walking around with a measuring stick that shows them as the tops.

I met a couple of SPECWAR Navy SEAL and Green Berets O-6's and O-5's in my day. Drastically different group of men.

I have worked with a lot of O-6 and higher fighter pilots. Every damn one of them treated this crusty old Major with respect. Worst attitudes I saw tended to come from high ranking enlisted and wannabe fast burner field grade officers.

As to writing, from day one of AFROTC they taught us to speak clearly and plainly. That always works. However, I didn't know anyone still subscribed to a print magazine.

When Precision Shooting went away, so did my interest in print magazines. Rifle and Handloader quit having useful information for me in the early 2000s. I do get American Rifleman electronically, but I rarely read it anymore.

I never said they weren't respectful.

You are right about Senior NCO's toward officers. I have seen it a thousand times when I was enlisted. As a civ, I have seen it a lot more. They seem to be getting worse.

One of the USAF Big Mouth F-16 pilots I worked with was a cool cat, he loved enlisted but had similar stories of the BS he went through with senior NCOs in the USAF.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
Yes, I had to copy edit a lot of white papers for our staff of Air Force and Army Colonels and Navy Captains. We had a Marine Major, that had taught as a Navy ROTC Commander at some college in Virginia. He was exceptional, I never changed a word.

One of the O-6's was a F-14 pilot, one a artillery officer, one was a B-1 pilot, and one was a nuke missile commander. O-6 fighter pilots are probably about the cockiest people in the world.

I have known quite a few of them, and all of them have been amazing people and some of the smartest people I have ever met. Everyone of them spends a lot of time telling you that they are in charge, and walking around with a measuring stick that shows them as the tops.

I met a couple of SPECWAR Navy SEAL and Green Berets O-6's and O-5's in my day. Drastically different group of men.

I have worked with a lot of O-6 and higher fighter pilots. Every damn one of them treated this crusty old Major with respect. Worst attitudes I saw tended to come from high ranking enlisted and wannabe fast burner field grade officers.

As to writing, from day one of AFROTC they taught us to speak clearly and plainly. That always works. However, I didn't know anyone still subscribed to a print magazine.

When Precision Shooting went away, so did my interest in print magazines. Rifle and Handloader quit having useful information for me in the early 2000s. I do get American Rifleman electronically, but I rarely read it anymore.

I never said they weren't respectful.

You are right about Senior NCO's toward officers. I have seen it a thousand times when I was enlisted. As a civ, I have seen it a lot more. They seem to be getting worse.

One of the USAF Big Mouth F-16 pilots I worked with was a cool cat, he loved enlisted but had similar stories of the BS he went through with senior NCOs in the USAF.

I rose to captain in the army before I got out and have nothing but good things to say about the senior NCOs with whom I served. My 1SG when I was a company commander was particularly outstanding; came from Delta Force - most impressive soldier I ever met of any rank. I think my proudest moment was when our post commander had a meeting of all Co Cdrs and 1SG - he said if all CO's and 1SG's had the mutual respect that we had for each other his job would be a lot easier. I relied heavily on my 1SG's judgment when it came to unit discipline, etc.

When I was in Officer Basic the Army had a program called "The Army Effective Writing Program." It seems too many officers were writing in the passive voice. Not sure what happened to that, but it is sorely needed in today's universities. The engineers that work in my software company drive me absolutely nuts sometimes when it comes to written communication - simple things such as question marks, the proper use of a comma vs a semi-colon, etc.

Military experiences very quite a bit. I am guessing that you have not been in the military with millenials?