You wanted facts and non emotive stuff well there you go.

An excellent post, Weathered!

Anyone want to answer with their own submission of/with support for chopper shooting against that submission above.

There certainly is much to ponder after that exhaustive research.

As you will see from Weathered's post, there has been ample reason to decline helihunting concessions even with existing legislation, yet our current minister of conservation is pushing it through.

Unfortunately despite all the facts showing the negative impacts on conservation and other recreationalists ministers of the government do not always listen to reason when their interests are bought by lobbyists or they are ideologically driven.

That is simply brilliant W!

shanks did you receive those pics i sent

Compelling stuff indeed. Now for the political machine to act.
Also consider this. When the 13 or 16 AATH guys can no longer access the DoC estate at their leisure and fancy they may, well ,actually i'll promise you they will, end up knocking on the same doors that I knocked on 20 years ago for access to private land. Great you say as now its my problem and as much as we sympathise, bad luck. So now I'm displaced and along with me are 3 other operators that work the same property because our annaul harvest payments to the land owner are now being met or exceeded by the "new" operator.
I'm heading straight into the DoC estate with my concession and am now in direct competition on the ground with you guys and there are 3 others doing the same. Times that by 16 as all the AATH guys run to the limited number of private land owners and the NZ recreational hunter may well find 60 -70 guides now in direct competition right in front of you. And some of us are pretty good at what we do and will have a considerable impact on the Bull numbers.
You see, i think your also wrong when you say its all fat unfit guys that want to fly, its not, its anybody that likes the "adventure" and uniqueness that the helicopter can offer.
We do all our tahr hunts on foot, it hasn't always been that way but its the way it is now and yes we deal with some people that are in appalling shape but that's our job, to get them within shooting range of a Bull and given the long range rifles about at the moment and guys that know how to use them , in range is 500-600m. They shot I recover jobs done. And its one less bull in front of you. And I'll demand from DoC that I have the same if not better access to hunting areas for tahr than you kiwi hunters because I pay more to be there and my $$ inputs via my clients help run the economy.
Dont think banning helicopter s is going to give you more tahr, it may very well be the exact opposite of what you wish for, that will all change of course once you Kiwi recreational hunters front up with $700 trophy fee to shot a Bull.$700 is the fee DoC charge us to hunt on the DoC estate in this neo-liberal environment we live in.

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
Compelling stuff indeed. Now for the political machine to act.
Also consider this. When the 13 or 16 AATH guys can no longer access the DoC estate at their leisure and fancy they may, well ,actually i'll promise you they will, end up knocking on the same doors that I knocked on 20 years ago for access to private land. Great you say as now its my problem and as much as we sympathise, bad luck. So now I'm displaced and along with me are 3 other operators that work the same property because our annaul harvest payments to the land owner are now being met or exceeded by the "new" operator.
I'm heading straight into the DoC estate with my concession and am now in direct competition on the ground with you guys and there are 3 others doing the same. Times that by 16 as all the AATH guys run to the limited number of private land owners and the NZ recreational hunter may well find 60 -70 guides now in direct competition right in front of you. And some of us are pretty good at what we do and will have a considerable impact on the Bull numbers.
You see, i think your also wrong when you say its all fat unfit guys that want to fly, its not, its anybody that likes the "adventure" and uniqueness that the helicopter can offer.
We do all our tahr hunts on foot, it hasn't always been that way but its the way it is now and yes we deal with some people that are in appalling shape but that's our job, to get them within shooting range of a Bull and given the long range rifles about at the moment and guys that know how to use them , in range is 500-600m. They shot I recover jobs done. And its one less bull in front of you. And I'll demand from DoC that I have the same if not better access to hunting areas for tahr than you kiwi hunters because I pay more to be there and my $$ inputs via my clients help run the economy.
Dont think banning helicopter s is going to give you more tahr, it may very well be the exact opposite of what you wish for, that will all change of course once you Kiwi recreational hunters front up with $700 trophy fee to shot a Bull.$700 is the fee DoC charge us to hunt on the DoC estate in this neo-liberal environment we live in.

You can demand better access than the public to public land if you wish, remembering cumulatively recreational hunters pay far more in tax to maintain our backcountry.
Remember as well the "purpose for which the land is held" by the crown - and that is at least in part for the recreation of the New Zealand public.

Most recreational hunters will be less concerned with genuine ground based guided hunting on their turf due to less intrusion, as long as you are not practicing spot and drop then we should be working with these sort of operations not against them.

The flip side is, as an operator with hunting on both private land and public, it is only reasonable that you consider the public when hunting on DoC administered land.

Whether its you guys or them, we've got the numbers hunting public land already. At least with you its not helicopters. but I think your playing up the drama a tad. If HH is stopped, the competition for tahr on private land may well increase, but so will the value of those private land animals and first reaction would be I'd suggest, more land becoming available to host Tahr.

What I'd like to see though is some management of tahr that reduced the female numbers and allowed the male population to increase in its place so juvenile bulls didn't need to be taken and so there were bulls to go around.

Yeah John, they make me want to get back over.

Highlander my perception is that you’re playing it up a bit as Shankspony suggested, I can’t really imagine too many helihunters wanting to pay big money to exceed your annual harvest payments for a resource they currently pay next to nothing for. I’m pretty sure that at least one of the helihunters already makes the occasional visit onto the property you hunt already from what Croc Adams told me a few years ago, although I’m not sure he’s paying any harvest fee.

Went off for a walk around the hills to think and get myself fit to compete with all the new guides who will be using our resource, and on reflection I think this piece needs responding too as well.

quote:

Dont think banning helicopter s is going to give you more tahr, it may very well be the exact opposite of what you wish for, that will all change of course once you Kiwi recreational hunters front up with $700 trophy fee to shot a Bull.$700 is the fee DoC charge us to hunt on the DoC estate in this neo-liberal environment we live in.

Why are you mentioning your 700 dollar fee? It has no relevance, damn sure it gives you no extra right to the animals. Its a mitigation fee for operating a commercial activity on public land and is in an about way paid to us to compensate for a number of things, but I'd like to think because we pay our tax's to look after public land, the client generally doesn't.

Highlander has been dancing around this for years now we see where he is coming from, he likes his little patch. How many nannies up Irishman and Stony now ? drop round for a beer after the season G

Facts seem to have quieted the hair splitters.
At least we have moved past archimedes principle as applied to helicopter passengers.

The question is how to get the straight facts across to the bulk of potential hunting tourists to NZ, to enable them to make an informed decision.

quote:

Originally posted by ethos:
Facts seem to have quieted the hair splitters.

They always will! That was the point I was trying to make all along!

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
Compelling stuff indeed. Now for the political machine to act.
Also consider this. When the 13 or 16 AATH guys can no longer access the DoC estate at their leisure and fancy they may, well ,actually i'll promise you they will, end up knocking on the same doors that I knocked on 20 years ago for access to private land. Great you say as now its my problem and as much as we sympathise, bad luck. So now I'm displaced and along with me are 3 other operators that work the same property because our annaul harvest payments to the land owner are now being met or exceeded by the "new" operator.
I'm heading straight into the DoC estate with my concession and am now in direct competition on the ground with you guys and there are 3 others doing the same. Times that by 16 as all the AATH guys run to the limited number of private land owners and the NZ recreational hunter may well find 60 -70 guides now in direct competition right in front of you. And some of us are pretty good at what we do and will have a considerable impact on the Bull numbers.
You see, i think your also wrong when you say its all fat unfit guys that want to fly, its not, its anybody that likes the "adventure" and uniqueness that the helicopter can offer.
We do all our tahr hunts on foot, it hasn't always been that way but its the way it is now and yes we deal with some people that are in appalling shape but that's our job, to get them within shooting range of a Bull and given the long range rifles about at the moment and guys that know how to use them , in range is 500-600m. They shot I recover jobs done. And its one less bull in front of you. And I'll demand from DoC that I have the same if not better access to hunting areas for tahr than you kiwi hunters because I pay more to be there and my $$ inputs via my clients help run the economy.
Dont think banning helicopter s is going to give you more tahr, it may very well be the exact opposite of what you wish for, that will all change of course once you Kiwi recreational hunters front up with $700 trophy fee to shot a Bull.$700 is the fee DoC charge us to hunt on the DoC estate in this neo-liberal environment we live in.

No G, rec hunters wont need to find $700 dollars a tahr, all we need pay is a $100 dollars annually for a hunting permit which also doubles as an annual hut pass (they cost $95 dollars anyway)
$100 PA is easy enough to find if its for game management.
Approx 50,000 rec hunters of which 25,000 may pay equates to $ 2.5 million a year at the table. Then rec hunters are going to take control of the GAC, guides will be govt regulated via the GAC and you and your association will not be treated kindly at that table after this helihunting thing.

Or NZPHGA can stop trying to screw all NZ rec hunters over, stop coming out with empty threats like yours and we can all sit down at a table and sort out something workable for all parties.
Wanna bet Peter dunne decides who is on the GAC? it is after all his bill. Wanna know who will re-elect him? it is rec hunters. I would rather rec hunters have a good relationship with guides, a strong ethical guiding association is essential to good game management. Right now you dont have any sort of association its considered a joke and guides may be given what the GAC tells you if you are not carefull. NZPHGA are only 200 votes.

Make no mistake rec hunters are majorly pissed at the guides/outfitters and we will not be very accomodating unless you all get your act together

I stress that this is just my personnel view.
I think that between commercial and recreational hunters, WE can all do better to look after this resource, which is essentially the bulls.
I would be more than happy to see a tag system on bulls of 100 bucks per head for rec hunters. They are a finite resource and stopping some of the guys who measure on the ground and the others who happily shoot 10 bulls a year would be an improvement on the rec side.
Maybe even make the fee payable in nanny tails if the hunter wishes. 10 nannys gets you a free bull tag.
Fact is we can manage this resource much better, cut the amount of culling needed, produce a higher number of +12 inch bulls, add value. we won't get anywhere while HH is still on the cards though.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
I stress that this is just my personnel view.
I think that between commercial and recreational hunters, WE can all do better to look after this resource, which is essentially the bulls.
I would be more than happy to see a tag system on bulls of 100 bucks per head for rec hunters. They are a finite resource and stopping some of the guys who measure on the ground and the others who happily shoot 10 bulls a year would be an improvement on the rec side.
Maybe even make the fee payable in nanny tails if the hunter wishes. 10 nannys gets you a free bull tag.
Fact is we can manage this resource much better, cut the amount of culling needed, produce a higher number of +12 inch bulls, add value. we won't get anywhere while HH is still on the cards though.

Shanks, your thoughts above are in a similar vein to other game management systems that are in place around the world but these sorts of management programmes only work where there are greater populations of hunters, greater general population of people in countries i.e. more head per hectare or whatever measure you wish to use, greater accessibility into and around the country, populations of natural predators of the game animals and more extreme climatic conditions.

NZ is probably one of the most unique countries in the world when it comes to game animals and hunting. Most of NZ is not populated, much of our high country and alpine areas are not readily accessible, there are no natural predators of any of our big game animals, our game animals are relatively disease free, we have a very temperate climate where grazing is available all year round, etc, etc. If left to their own devices all our game animal populations just carry on increasing at alarming rates, there is nothing naturally occurring (predators, disease, harsh winters, etc) to stop this growth. Foot hunters have never, and will never, control this in NZ. Despite the years of hunting, shooting, and indiscriminate culling that have occurred we can still find trophy animals of all our species. They maybe harder to find than before chopper culling was introduced but they are still there. The small, by comparison, amount of 'indiscriminate' shooting of young potential trophies by foot hunters will not change our game animal population structure, the law of averages says that trophy animals will still be produced because the animal populations are increasing at a far greater rate than foot hunters can control.

Only earlier this year my nephew took a 14" bull tahr and saw plenty of other chamois and tahr. His brother and other mate did take other trophies too including himself with a 12" tahr the day before the big one. This was in areas where many other hunters fly in and trampers pass through regularly. The culling choppers also visit when deemed necessary to bring the populations down.

I have seen a huge heavy timbered red deer head shot from a culling chopper not 15 minutes walk from the state highway in Sth Westland and not more than 30 secs flying time from the chopper base. After all the pressure from the daily morning and evening culling operation taking place, this red stag had still managed to stay out of trouble and grow to a great trophy. Of course it was never measured or presented as a trophy, just became another head in the collection of the pilot and shooter. Likewise I've have seen the same with chamois and tahr.

Back in the 70's when hunting for moose and being flown in by Bill Black, well known chopper pilot/culler, we enquired if he had ever seen a moose swimming in the fiords, the answer was no and it was only about a fortnight before that he had ever seen a red deer swimming from his chopper and yet there were reds on every island big, small, or tiny in the fiords but in all the flying hours of intensive culling over many years the pilot had only just seen a red deer out in the open swimming.

So Shanks my view is that we should forget what is happening in so far as foot hunting goes, it is indiscriminate use of culling choppers that will have the greatest effect and which if better controlled, as is the case today, we will find the trophies a little easier but in NZ never guaranteed to get.

We only screw you guys over because you have made it so easy for us to do so in the past.
GAC is a huge turning point in New Zealands checkered hunting history.
I'm looking forward to it.
But i know elements within NZPHGA and I sure groups from other orgs that are less than thrilled about it. Lot of work to do and its new ground.
Lets hope the right people are included from the beginning and we look for what we have in common and grow from that.
We can learn from the past but we had better not be guided by the past.

That I can agree with totally. Not to mention a lot of REc hunters arn't happy about it too Highlander.
I tend to think that so many not happy maybe a sign it will do some good.

Eagle, Tahr are a little different to most other species in NZ. There is a very limited number of true trophy bulls. About 600 in any given year. Too many young are shot and its not just helihunters doing it. Again just my view but we need some way to pay for and incentivize the taking of females while reducing the number of under 6 year old bulls being taken.

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:
We only screw you guys over because you have made it so easy for us to do so in the past.

Fortunately for you we will try not to reciprocate that attitude.

quote:

Originally posted by highlander:GAC is a huge turning point in New Zealands checkered hunting history.
I'm looking forward to it.
But i know elements within NZPHGA and I sure groups from other orgs that are less than thrilled about it. Lot of work to do and its new ground.
Lets hope the right people are included from the beginning and we look for what we have in common and grow from that.
We can learn from the past but we had better not be guided by the past.

I am reading the email exchange between GO and MW it is pretty much as I expected.
Thing is right now any way you pick that GAC table the phariah at the end is you guys, rec hunters have more in common with all the other participants. Its guides that have to make the effort and depart from a purely results driven business plan on public land and improve their conduct, then we might have something in common.

Anyone turning up at the GAC table with a purely selfish "we screw you because we can" attitude is going to get short thrift. The lack of maturity and forethought in that sentiment is surprising.
Im hoping its not your own sentiment highlander and that "professional" may eventually mean more than "gets paid" as far as hunting guides go. NZPHGA has its own credibility to establish obviously.

Sensible compromise can be reached on most issues, but some destructive practices like helihunting are too at odds with too many recreationalists.

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:


Once again: I do not support heli-hunting ....

Matt do you support the behind wire 'hunting'

Yes, of course I support properly managed game-ranches.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
I tend to think that so many not happy maybe a sign it will do some good.

In the Australian experience this has certainly been the case... both for hunting and fishing quango's and govt departments.

I think (and hope) there will be a lot to be gained from the new dept. Common ground can be found. Outfitters who dont want to work with rec hunters can get fucked as far asIm concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
I`m thinking that with the advocates for shooting Tahr from choppers in NZ going on and on that its 'ok' to use a chopper elsewhere and thus I would like to go to Idaho or perhaps NM and shoot a bull Wapiti from a bell jet ranger,one with enough space to carry my rock box and ice box to make it a nice and comfortable hunt.
Maybe then I can go after an Argali ram using a military chopper,I hear that a bit of bribe money will get you a cheap "hunt" and a top ram.

And of course a chopper flyover of some of Kodiak Is`s rivers "hunting " for a big brown would be a good way to put a 'trophy' on my wall too....no need to even have waterproof boots on!

Would anyone complain about me doing this?

Oh yeah can anyone remember of the days it was legal to shoot Bald Eagles from aircraft and then they changed the rules to disallow it?

They really spoiled the fun hunting there eh!

Gryphon - What a silly anology!!

In most of the U.S., the things you mention are already AGAINST the law, period. Its not about whether someone else would approve, would not approve, thinks these methods are ethical/unethical, etc, etc. They are illegal, no debate, no sob stories from those that can't vs those than can, on and on.

So, ethics/opinions and personal beliefs play ZERO part in the decision process. Hopefully those of you that are dead-set against Heli-hunting in NZ, get the "laws" changed. But until then, I would try to focus on the issues, instead of all of the goofy analogies, opinions, class warfare, I can walk further than you, thus my way's better than yours, etc, etc. My lord, someone on here was trying to compare child molestation to heli-hunting, really?? I could not imagine a quicker way to lose listeners/sympathizers, than some of the silly arguments I've read over the past 4 pages.

First off, anyone who is actually "Shooting" a Tahr/Chamois from inside a chopper, now that's just pathetic - and I too would be all for making that 100% illegal!!!

Like many, I have hunted with Gary Herbert, loved it, and will do it again. We used the chopper, as we reached the "top", we got out, off flew the chopper, after we got our animal, Gary called the chopper via radio, and back he came (that was 10 yrs ago, just fyi) Ok, I can see both sides of the argument, each to his own opinion.

Me personally, I would try lobbying the laws, making it illegal to fly in the chopper, and hunt on the same day, period! Thus, visiting hunters could use the chopper to access the alpine country, but then must over-night on the mountain, before any hunting can begin. I've done exactly that on a Dall Sheep hunt in Canada's Northwest Territories, it was AWESOME!

Frankly Kiwis, your stance is not a bad one at all. But all the whining, blaming the "rich" guy, comparing heli-hunting to child molesters, goofy sarcastic games, and alienating the other half of your own hunting community - is drastically working against you in this case, guaranteed!! If you really want to get this changed, you need to stick to the facts, take out the emotion, and you MUST get the support of the VAST majority of the world's sport hunters to agree with you, not just your fellow NZ guys. Then, once DSC, SCI, The Hunting Report, other hunting organizations, etc, etc. All start to draw some attention to the issue, maybe saying, "guys, we should really consider changing these methods, changing the law, etc" - then you guys will win. But, when the argument sounds like whining "locals", crying poor mouth, poor me, I'm tougher/can walk further than you, etc, and worse - bad mouthing the very clients/hunters who come to support your economy/hunting heritage, etc. The likelihood of getting much support, except from eachother - is SLIM. I think the law should be changed, allowing heli-access, but NO same day hunting. But I doubt anything gets changed, if NZ officials are getting the same lame arguments, that are reflected by 90% of the Kiwis on this thread.

Trust me, I know a little something about starting an issue - regarding a hunting position I feel strongly about.

Aaron:

Why do you suppose it is not legal in Alaska (and perhaps many other states) to get dropped off on top of a mountain, overnight, then go shoot a sheep?

I admit you can land a cub high if you want, but you can't land one on every mountain top. However, a helicopter can land wherever it wants.

So why do you suppose Alaska doesn't allow it?

Just to keep the ball rolling.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories...-it-heli-hunting.htm

quote:

The one thing it is not is hunting

says it all , really .....

more fuel here


http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories...i-hunting-report.htm

All CANNED!

In what way Saeed?

Anytime I see an endless list of SCI this and SCI that trophies on a website my warning signs go off.

I have seen animals like these being advertised BEFORE being shot, with guarantees of being number so and so.

quote:

From: Jenny Williams [mailto:jwilliams@doc.govt.nz]
Sent: Monday, 7 May 2012 10:31 a.m.
To: --------------
Cc:----------------
Subject: FW: AATH changes you need to know



Kia ora



I would like to bring to your attention some recent developments that may affect members of your organisation if they are visiting wilderness areas.



Six aerially assisted trophy hunting (AATH) operators last week sought a judicial review of Associate Conservation Minister Peter Dunne’s decision on their AATH concession applications. They claim that the Minister’s February decision was biased and unreasonable. They are seeking to have the term of their concessions for AATH increased from two to ten years, and the concessions in wilderness areas granted on a non-notified basis with the additional conditions imposed. These additional conditions address shooting from a helicopter and hazing and herding wild animals



The Minister will not make a decision on the six plaintiff’s concessions until the outcome of the judicial review or further order from the court. Therefore, their 2011 concessions, for wilderness areas only, have been rolled over for the 2012 season (until 30 September 2012). For areas of public conservation land, excluding wilderness areas, the 2012 concession permits that were approved in February 2012 will apply.



Meanwhile, the Department continues to process the other AATH concession applications for wilderness areas, which were publically notified in accordance with the Minister’s decision. A report will be prepared advising on what information in submissions should be recognised, and making recommendations for the final decision on the concessions. The Minister will need to decide whether or not to grant the AATH concessions for wilderness areas, for what term and with what conditions.



Basically, what this means for your members is:

6 operators will be able to operate in the Olivine Wilderness Area from June 1 this year (the recommendation under the public notification process is that they are only able to operate if animal numbers exceed DOC guidelines as determined by the Otago Conservator)
they will also be able to operate in the Hooker/Landsborough and Adams WAs from 1 June. (the recommendation under the public notification process is that they are only able to operate from 14 June)
The permit conditions from the 2011 permits will apply for these 6 operators for WAs only (the 2012 permit applies for all other pcl)
the remaining operators will be bound by any final decision that arises from the public notification process and the ensuing permit

The submission period for allowing AATH in wilderness areas closed on 18 April and the hearing was held last week. 236 submissions were received, 212 against and 22 for, with a couple that weren't clear either way.



If you need any clarification on this email, please feel free to give me a call.



Regards

Jenny

There is that Lawyer again do you people believe us now ?

Every person that "legally" helihunts in New Zealand supports the helihunters legal action.
None of you are welcome in New Zealand, not from the rest of the New Zealand recreationalists anyway.

212 against AATH 22 in support of it

quote:

aerially assisted trophy hunting (AATH)

Thats a joke isnt it? I mean delete the "hunting" out of that as it isnt hunting at all.

good result on the submissions though weathered!!