I don't think it was meant as any sort of slight on yourself, or your accomplishments Todd. Muzzas comments have had me thinking most of the day. I realize for myself that My time in the mountains has greatly improved me as a person, self reliance, learning my limits, leadership, risk assessment etc.
probably more importantly,I reflected on my times hunting in other countries, and I think I can categorically say that they too have taught me and given me much. My time with Gryph and his generosity in letting me wander the Aussie bush by myself taught me much, as did seeing a different hunting style and learning that I can make mistakes again.
Sweden and its totally different culture of hunting. I think I'm a better person for all those experiences.
Always though, I followed the lead of the locals and did things the way they found acceptable, and I hope I gained some respect from them for doing so.

Agree with Todd that things have got a bit too emotional. Maybe a few facts to clear things up.
I spent my whole life in South Westland of NZ until the age of 38 before moving north to my current abode. Much of this was spent in and around our bush and mountains. i was never a trophy hunter but just enjoyed hunting with a gun, reloading and gunsmithing.

I would shoot for meat, shoot for money and shoot for pleasure. If the animal happened to have a trophy or representative head well be it.

Helihunting will never decimate our game not unless thousands or perhaps a million hunters partake in it and even then if they only shoot an animal or two each they will not make much impression on our wild animal population. The problem with helihunting is that the money involved sees tracts of private and public land being locked up just for the rich to indulge in their "sport". This has happened in many countries of the World, not because of helihunting, but due to general population and hunter number pressures leading to the money talks syndrome.
I spent a year in West Germany and visited Austria in the 80's, where hunting is just for the rich who could afford the tendering type system to gain the rights to hunting blocks (unless you owned 90 hectares or so which you could keep for your own hunting block). Look at Africa, really just for the well off who can afford to hunt there and then must be accompanied by a PH and all that goes with it. Top end Australia gone or going the same way

We here in NZ cherish our heritage and freedom and that is why we try to protect our hunting system if you call it that. Our land, both private and public, should be for everyone to enjoy unhindered and not be governed by those who have the fattest wallet. That is why practices such as tipping etc is abhorrent to most of us kiwis and is not in our nature to do.

I had a friend years ago who was a forest ranger (killed in a chopper crash when shooting animals for money on his annual holidays, who told me of when they first started culling tahr with the old Bell 47 (MASH) chopper. He described the alpine scene as if you had taken a bag of ball bearings and tipped it out over the top of every mountain peak. The tahr just poured down of the mountain ranges when the choppers arrived. The same applied to our red deer and chamois. Even extensive non-stop chopper culling over many years never, and never will, kill off the populations of our animals. All the while this was going on, me and my hunting mates could still go out and shoot deer, chamois and tahr. Yes sure some days a chopper would come along and disturb the peace but most often or not they would fly off and leave you to it if you showed yourself. We even hitched rides in and out with them at times.

Obviously populations of animals such as I allude to above in our bush and alpine areas did and will, decimate the environment and alpine areas and foot hunters never did and never will control these animals. In fact visiting hunters and local pure trophy hunters actually do us some dis-service by not culling more animals. Going into an area where many animals are seen and only shooting one or two will eventually lead to the culling choppers going back in to do the population control. The problem with chopper culling is that the trophies are shot as well as it is just a numbers game when culling.

I have no issue at all with hunters using choppers for transport in and out, and if you see something on the way in which in most cases you do, then there is no guarantee that the animal will be still there when you start hunting after setting up camp. I am doing exactly this in two weeks time for a 7 day hunt in the middle of the Sth. Westland alps, three of us going in NZ$230 each for the return trip chopper ride. No cost for a DOC permit, no cost to camp, no PH to pay, nobody to tell us what to do or where to do it.
Until you have been in our Alps you have no real grasp of just how rugged,isolated and huge they are and of course this is what makes it a lottery as to whether you score an animal or not even though you will most likely see a lot. This is the price we pay for the freedom to hunt over most of our land without having to fill someones wallet or empty ours.

SO WE PLEASE EXCUSE OUR EMOTIONAL STATE WHEN IT COMES TO SEEING THE RICH HELIHUNTING IN OUR COUNTRY - AND DAMN WELL TIPPING AT THE END OF IT

Todd I think your perspective is invaluable, it is also noteworthy that you have decided not to helihunt now you are in possession of more facts.

My strong opinion is that it is in all hunters interests to decry fringe activities like helihunting to avoid pollution of the term "hunting" in the eyes of the mostly non hunting public, aside from our own ethics.

I agree care needs to be taken with how we phrase our arguments especially where the logistics of hunting are not identical between countries.

quote:

Originally posted by ethos:
Todd I think your perspective is invaluable, it is also noteworthy that you have decided not to helihunt now you are in possession of more facts.

My strong opinion is that it is in all hunters interests to decry fringe activities like helihunting to avoid pollution of the term "hunting" in the eyes of the mostly non hunting public, aside from our own ethics.

I agree care needs to be taken with how we phrase our arguments especially where the logistics of hunting are not identical between countries.

Well I said I was done but I have to respond once more.

I did not "decide not to heli-hunt now that I'm possession of more facts". I told the outfitter 3 years ago when I booked this trip that I didn't want to use a helicopter at all! Using it for access in the same manner we do when hunting Alaska seems reasonable and that is ALL I've ever intended to to!

So - are we still on for that blackbuck hunt then Todd ??? ( just joking ...)

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by ethos:
Todd I think your perspective is invaluable, it is also noteworthy that you have decided not to helihunt now you are in possession of more facts.

My strong opinion is that it is in all hunters interests to decry fringe activities like helihunting to avoid pollution of the term "hunting" in the eyes of the mostly non hunting public, aside from our own ethics.

I agree care needs to be taken with how we phrase our arguments especially where the logistics of hunting are not identical between countries.

Well I said I was done but I have to respond once more.

I did not "decide not to heli-hunt now that I'm possession of more facts". I told the outfitter 3 years ago when I booked this trip that I didn't want to use a helicopter at all! Using it for access in the same manner we do when hunting Alaska seems reasonable and that is ALL I've ever intended to to!

Understood.

It seems to me that this debate has become a little too narrow and personal. We should all recognize that hunting access and methods is a major issue in many hunting areas including many examples in the U.S. Here are a few:

In MT (where I live) access to prime elk hunting ground is greatly diminished. Many ranches that used to provide mountain foothill and winter range access are completely closed. This leaves the non-landowner resident hunter the option of obtaining horses to loop around the ranch, suffer it on foot when many times there is no way to access prime hunting areas or move to lesser locations and battle the masses of other hunters.

On dozens of occasions I have been passed on trails (while I was on foot) or had stalks on elk messed up by outfitters hauling their Non-Resident hunters into an area on horseback. Without paying the $4000 to $10,000+ for the hunt (or renting their own horses) the non-resident would have had <5% chance of an opportunity at elk.

Hunters of means can also pay $10,000 and up to hunt elk or deer on the best private ranches (e.g. Turners vast ranch holdings).

MT residents went after (some of) these problems by approving a voter initiative that eliminated outfitter guaranteed tags and raised prices. The effects of this are not yet certain but it certainly didn't improve access to the "trophy ranches".

As stated here previously, in AK, non-resident DIY hunters routinely use bushplanes to access better hunting grounds. On numerous trips to AK, I have felt the envy and anger as the local Alaskans pile into the road accessible areas with pickups and ATVs since they don't have the $$ to hire a bushplane.

The point I am making is that a very similar conflict exists anywhere you have outfitting and guided hunting overlapping with local hunters. It is just that the NZ heli-hunting is more visible and obvious but not all that different.

Thanks for expanding that out Hunt99.
Yes it does look like similar problems have arisen in the United States, at least as far as better access going to the biggest wallet.

In New Zealand, our large game were liberated to give the everyman a chance to hunt, unlike the landed gentry back in England - when money begins to talk here we see our entire hunting culture under threat.

As kiwis we also pride ourselves on doing the hard yards, paying to hunt at all is not really part of mainstream hunting culture.

It is even more painful to a kiwi to see the image being created of New Zealand becoming a glorified theme park so some can helicopter around harassing and gunning down game for sh#ts and giggles.
This is the sort of "ethics for hire" you might find in a third world country.

I'll echo the sentiments of my countrymen in saying just because a legal loophole allows it doesnt make it right.
We truly appreciate those who are supporting the fight against helihunting from overseas.

I really hope we can be on the same page with our fellow hunters overseas to ensure we can all hunt sustainably in future.

Do any of you in the US have any suggestions on how we can bring helihunting issues to peoples attention so they can make informed decisions if traveling to this part of the world?

How do you all feel about sightseeing by chopper in these remote areas?

I feel it should be limited to preserve everyone elses enjoyment.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
How do you all feel about sightseeing by chopper in these remote areas?

Plenty of tourists or residents sight see with choppers or fixed wings, that is not an issue. just as plenty of residents or visitors out with residents, shoot game - deer, goats, rabbits, possums etc from boats, ATVs and vehicles particularly when shooting for meat or to sell. This has no effect on animal populations as these are feed from the bushlands and mountains.
Of course there are very few wilderness areas where you could shoot chamois or tahr from a vehicle as we just don't have the roading structure in these areas. If you happen to come across a trophy head when in a vehicle I don't think you would hardly find one kiwi who would not take the shot but he or she would not claim that they shot it in any other way. It is well and truly accepted here that animals are shot in any way you can and this is simply for the fact that no foot hunters can ever control our animal populations. Eventually when numbers build, our Department of Conservation will cull with choppers.
The block I'm due to go into in a couple of weeks time for tahr and chamois was chopper culled by DOC before Xmas but they report still a lot of animals in there.

We kiwis have always accepted that it is open season and open slather anytime, most anywhere, and anyway you wish when hunting game in our country (hunting game-birds is controlled by a licencing system) but our biggest concern is the locking up of public land and even large tracts of private alpine land just for the monied few to enjoy their style of hunting to the exclusion of the ordinary kiwi or visitor.

As this post started, to pose with some just shot trophies with a chopper hovering in the background, or as posted a while back here, posing with a trophy tahr and to say it had been shot with a 12 gauge shotgun after stepping from a chopper, is certainly not going to endear you to kiwi hunters let alone most others around the world.

I`m thinking that with the advocates for shooting Tahr from choppers in NZ going on and on that its 'ok' to use a chopper elsewhere and thus I would like to go to Idaho or perhaps NM and shoot a bull Wapiti from a bell jet ranger,one with enough space to carry my rock box and ice box to make it a nice and comfortable hunt.
Maybe then I can go after an Argali ram using a military chopper,I hear that a bit of bribe money will get you a cheap "hunt" and a top ram.

And of course a chopper flyover of some of Kodiak Is`s rivers "hunting " for a big brown would be a good way to put a 'trophy' on my wall too....no need to even have waterproof boots on!

Would anyone complain about me doing this?

Oh yeah can anyone remember of the days it was legal to shoot Bald Eagles from aircraft and then they changed the rules to disallow it?

They really spoiled the fun hunting there eh!

This is complicated with many issues.

One is most certainly that some Kiwi outfitters offer these hunts. If they would stop, problem solved. I was offered a chopper hunt about 10 years ago on my first trip to your magnificent country. I said, "absolutely not." Others took tahr from the chopper. Not me, I flatly refused.

If the law prohibited the taking of animals from a chopper, that would also solve the problem as would an AK type law.

Personally, I think the AK law goes a bit overboard. If I fly in late one afternoon, I personally see no ethical problem with hunting the next morning yet that is prohibited as I understand it.

I see no problem with a chopper taking me to the top of a mountain and hunting down. Why? It is transportation, nothing more. The fact of the matter is that at age 56 and being from the flat lands at sea level, I have a limited capacity to climb up and down the mountains. Now , before I am attacked as yet another rich, old , fat guy, let me tell you that I ran 11 miles this morning. I exercise 2-3 hours a day before I go to work. When living at sea level, it is damn near impossible to prepare. Very few exercise more than me.

For the most part, I find shooting from a chopper deplorable. If I had wounded something, I think I might use a chopper to try and find it.

On my last trip, we took 2 "rides". One was in an old WW II vintage plane. The other was a sight seeing tour on a chopper. The chopper ride was extremely memorable and a lot of fun. The scenery was incredible. However, when the pilot flew down some of those valleys extremely low, I cringed a bit. He chased tahr a few times. I was not at all comfortable with that. I asked him to stop.

Good luck gentlemen. I hope to visit your country again soon.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Alaska prohibit flying and hunting on the same day?

Yes
It is a good rule.

It is also against the law to use a helicopter in Alaska to even drop you off. If the wings rotate, it is not legal to use it for hunting access.

A good rule.

I have only hunted NZ once, but I didn't find the mountains all that tough. I hunted free range tahr and chamois and had a wonderful hunt. My guide asked if I wanted to use a helicopter and I said I would rather go home empty handed.

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
I`m thinking that with the advocates for shooting Tahr from choppers in NZ going on and on that its 'ok' to use a chopper elsewhere and thus I would like to go to Idaho or perhaps NM and shoot a bull Wapiti from a bell jet ranger,one with enough space to carry my rock box and ice box to make it a nice and comfortable hunt.
Maybe then I can go after an Argali ram using a military chopper,I hear that a bit of bribe money will get you a cheap "hunt" and a top ram.

And of course a chopper flyover of some of Kodiak Is`s rivers "hunting " for a big brown would be a good way to put a 'trophy' on my wall too....no need to even have waterproof boots on!

Would anyone complain about me doing this?

Oh yeah can anyone remember of the days it was legal to shoot Bald Eagles from aircraft and then they changed the rules to disallow it?

They really spoiled the fun hunting there eh!

Gryphon - What a silly anology!!

In most of the U.S., the things you mention are already AGAINST the law, period. Its not about whether someone else would approve, would not approve, thinks these methods are ethical/unethical, etc, etc. They are illegal, no debate, no sob stories from those that can't vs those than can, on and on.

So, ethics/opinions and personal beliefs play ZERO part in the decision process. Hopefully those of you that are dead-set against Heli-hunting in NZ, get the "laws" changed. But until then, I would try to focus on the issues, instead of all of the goofy analogies, opinions, class warfare, I can walk further than you, thus my way's better than yours, etc, etc. My lord, someone on here was trying to compare child molestation to heli-hunting, really?? I could not imagine a quicker way to lose listeners/sympathizers, than some of the silly arguments I've read over the past 4 pages.

First off, anyone who is actually "Shooting" a Tahr/Chamois from inside a chopper, now that's just pathetic - and I too would be all for making that 100% illegal!!!

Like many, I have hunted with Gary Herbert, loved it, and will do it again. We used the chopper, as we reached the "top", we got out, off flew the chopper, after we got our animal, Gary called the chopper via radio, and back he came (that was 10 yrs ago, just fyi) Ok, I can see both sides of the argument, each to his own opinion.

Me personally, I would try lobbying the laws, making it illegal to fly in the chopper, and hunt on the same day, period! Thus, visiting hunters could use the chopper to access the alpine country, but then must over-night on the mountain, before any hunting can begin. I've done exactly that on a Dall Sheep hunt in Canada's Northwest Territories, it was AWESOME!

Frankly Kiwis, your stance is not a bad one at all. But all the whining, blaming the "rich" guy, comparing heli-hunting to child molesters, goofy sarcastic games, and alienating the other half of your own hunting community - is drastically working against you in this case, guaranteed!! If you really want to get this changed, you need to stick to the facts, take out the emotion, and you MUST get the support of the VAST majority of the world's sport hunters to agree with you, not just your fellow NZ guys. Then, once DSC, SCI, The Hunting Report, other hunting organizations, etc, etc. All start to draw some attention to the issue, maybe saying, "guys, we should really consider changing these methods, changing the law, etc" - then you guys will win. But, when the argument sounds like whining "locals", crying poor mouth, poor me, I'm tougher/can walk further than you, etc, and worse - bad mouthing the very clients/hunters who come to support your economy/hunting heritage, etc. The likelihood of getting much support, except from eachother - is SLIM. I think the law should be changed, allowing heli-access, but NO same day hunting. But I doubt anything gets changed, if NZ officials are getting the same lame arguments, that are reflected by 90% of the Kiwis on this thread.

Trust me, I know a little something about starting an issue - regarding a hunting position I feel strongly about.

quote:

and worse - bad mouthing the very clients/hunters who come to support your economy/hunting heritage, etc.

Aaron, the only "hunters/clients" being bad mouthed through this entire thread are the ones who helihunt and by their support, continue the practice.

They haven't been duped or fooled about the activity, they are willing participants, and in my eyes, they are 'hunting ethics' free zones and they should be exposed for what they are.

Re blaming the 'rich guy', it is the wealthy hunter who indulges in this "sport", accept it!!

quote:

Gryphon - What a silly anology!!

Is it? tell us why it is so in your opinion.

IMO it is pertinent,its drawing much the same result using choppers on game that is 'sacred'

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:


They haven't been duped or fooled about the activity, they are willing participants, and in my eyes, they are 'hunting ethics' free zones and they should be exposed for what they are.

Re blaming the 'rich guy', it is the wealthy hunter who indulges in this "sport", accept it!!

How do you know they havent been duped.... it happens ALL the time.

Like I also said before ... some of the cheapest tahr hunts are actual heli-hunts... dont you believe me??

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:

quote:

Gryphon - What a silly anology!!

Is it? tell us why it is so in your opinion.

IMO it is pertinent,its drawing much the same result using choppers on game that is 'sacred'

Obviously you didn't read my post? The answer to your question, is in my first paragraph. A question I answered, before you asked it.

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:

quote:

and worse - bad mouthing the very clients/hunters who come to support your economy/hunting heritage, etc.

Aaron, the only "hunters/clients" being bad mouthed through this entire thread are the ones who helihunt and by their support, continue the practice.

They haven't been duped or fooled about the activity, they are willing participants, and in my eyes, they are 'hunting ethics' free zones and they should be exposed for what they are.

Re blaming the 'rich guy', it is the wealthy hunter who indulges in this "sport", accept it!!

John - I doubt anyone is "fooled" into what they are or are not doing.

Fine, if you think its unethical to hunt this way, I can understand that. Then argue that, and hopefully it gets changed. I agree - why not make it no hunting/flying on the same day, problem solved?

Arguing the "rich" guys are doing all of it, causing the problem, etc - is the most pathetic, childlish, lame duck/jealous excuse for an argument I have ever heard. What is it now, roughly $1500 - $2000 for the additional chopper fees on a Tahr/Chamois hunt? Now, to claim that's the activities of the rich/wealthy - either you guys are all broke as a joke, and should probably spend your spare time working a 2nd job, trying to make more money, rather than complaining on the internet about what you "can't" do! Or, you Kiwis are way over valuing $2k, or perhaps its just complaining to be complaining?

Since you guys have NO argument for needing the law changed as sound "Game Management/Conservation needs", when they are still conducting aerial culling for example, your argument is quite narrow in scope. Its simply one set of ethics/morals vs the other. Again, nothing wrong with that, as long as you guys are OK with believing that laws should be based on one set of ethics/morals over the other? If so, when the anti-hunting groups come along and argue the morals/ethics for the closure of all hunting - what says you then? Or is that when you guys decide to pick and choose for all, only the ethics/morals that you deem acceptable? Seems tough to have this one both ways?

I would think this very thread would have been a good example for you Kiwis who want it stopped. Perhaps looking at it with "eyes wide shut" isn't working.

Good luck!

Sorry Aaron, there are a number of statements there in which you are wrong.

Fact: like it or not it is wealthy tourists who are doing this. I'm not saying that as any form of put down, its just how it is. A tahr at 5000 may be cheap, but few people come here just to shoot a tahr. Its the 20,000 dollar stag that is generally the original draw card.
70% of these people are American, 30% Austrailian. Almost no europeans partake in this form of hunt.

One of the main arguments against this activity is in fact conservation need's, along with the destruction of intrinsic values.
A bull hunt in this manor disrupts the herds and makes them heli-aware which makes the nanny culls much more difficult, pushing the animals closer to cover and forcing concentrated areas of over browsing. Aircraft activity is generally only allowed in theses areas for specific benefits to protect the natural quiet and atmosphere.

Like it or not, the general public of NZ understand the concept of ethics and fair play and the concept of what our mountains mean to us as Kiwi's. Hunting is F#cked if we are too scared to sort out the unacceptable because we don't think we can separate it from the acceptable. That argument is so flawed. its not having it both ways, its being responsible.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:

quote:

Gryphon - What a silly anology!!

Is it? tell us why it is so in your opinion.

IMO it is pertinent,its drawing much the same result using choppers on game that is 'sacred'

Obviously you didn't read my post? The answer to your question, is in my first paragraph. A question I answered, before you asked it.

Well Aaaron N I did read it and this is what you started your paragraph with..."In most of the U.S.," 'Most' being the pertinent word!


Now my outstandingly silly analogy was to point out that tahr are sacred in NZ to 99.9% of the Kiwis and basically no different to the holiness of the other animals I mentioned in their own worlds.

I have only hunted Tahr twice in NZ, both times on foot and there is a reference on this forum from one of those hunts as to where we had climbed for 9 hours only to be be greeted by a hunt outfits clients chopper going over the tops at break of day just above our camp...he shied away very quickly too when he ran into us,why? Because he was in that area illegally, something that isn't policed terribly hard and dont the 'guides' know it.If only he could hear the combined efforts of the Kiwi and Aussie swearing that day!
You do know that in 'the old days' many shots were fired at choppers by stalkers and I believe some were actually brought down.

When I see a pic of Capt Fatso sitting on a hill with a tahr bull 'trophy' that has obviously been choppered I usually am more impressed by the size of the clients gut than I am with the tahr horns.

Did you ever see the film Africa Adios where the military were chasing game in jeeps by linking together the vehicles with long ropes between them and thus breaking the legs of the fleeing animals...doesnt make it right eh!

Penned lions in SA ,chopper tahr in NZ it`s all very kosher and legal isnt it! Doesn't make it right though unless it seems that one is Capt Fatso with the cheque book! BAH!

I know a few pro guides in Oz personally and there are plenty of "doesnt make it right" happenings here too something that infects many of the pro guides in getting that buck for their client. And making a buck for themselves too.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Sorry Aaron, there are a number of statements there in which you are wrong.

Fact: like it or not it is wealthy tourists who are doing this. I'm not saying that as any form of put down, its just how it is. A tahr at 5000 may be cheap, but few people come here just to shoot a tahr. Its the 20,000 dollar stag that is generally the original draw card.
70% of these people are American, 30% Austrailian. Almost no europeans partake in this form of hunt.

Sorry but you misrepresent the hunters visiting New Zealand with your alleged facts.

Where are they wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Sorry Aaron, there are a number of statements there in which you are wrong.

Fact: like it or not it is wealthy tourists who are doing this. I'm not saying that as any form of put down, its just how it is. A tahr at 5000 may be cheap, but few people come here just to shoot a tahr. Its the 20,000 dollar stag that is generally the original draw card.
70% of these people are American, 30% Austrailian. Almost no europeans partake in this form of hunt.

Sorry but you misrepresent the hunters visiting New Zealand with your alleged facts.

Matt,

This is called " divide and conquer".


Our friends from New Zealand are shooting themselves in the foot with these silly arguments.

FACT: Most hunters, worldwide, do not like helihunting.

BUT: Instead of people in New Zealnd stopping this practice by changing their own laws, they are having a go at hunters who come from other countries and participate in what is being offered.

Now it is not others huneters from other countries, it is the bloody RICH YANKS and RICH AUSTRALIANS.

So by extension, they should stop American and Australian hunters, and by extension, this sort of hunting will just die all by itself.

Here is how I look at it.

If I fancied a helihunt in the present time. I will go and helihunt where ever it is available legally.

The locals can scream their heads off as much as they wish.

They are no different than the some locals in Africa complaining about "foreign" hunters destrpying "Their" natural resources.

They seem to fortget that "their" government has made this legal, and are benefitting of all the foreign money coming in.

quote:

If I fancied a helihunt in the present time. I will go and helihunt where ever it is available legally.

Just to be perfectly clear about this, the ethics of this practice wouldn't even enter your mind...

If I fancied a helihunt in the present time. I will go and helihunt where ever it is available legally.



But Saeed would you go and legally shoot a lion in a pen in SA? It seems to be legal from what i can gather... herein lies the problem...its ok if its legal....but are we not hunters that hunt and if we are hunters that hunt why is it that some choose to haze and shoot from a chopper,it is still done today.

In the case of the lion - the drive is to clean-up the act internally, by regulation.

Gentlemen:

I do not like heli-hunting. I have zero desire to do so. The facts are, however, that it is legal in NZ. As long as it is, there will be these issues. Rather than bad mouth foreign hunters and call them all sorts of names, wouldn't it be more effective to change the law?

Is it a realistic possibility to change the law?

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
If I fancied a helihunt in the present time. I will go and helihunt where ever it is available legally.



But Saeed would you go and legally shoot a lion in a pen in SA? It seems to be legal from what i can gather... herein lies the problem...its ok if its legal....but are we not hunters that hunt and if we are hunters that hunt why is it that some choose to haze and shoot from a chopper,it is still done today.

That is not the point.

I would not hunt from a helicopter, neither would I go on a lion hunt in South Africa.

That is my own personal choice, but I would not stop others doing it if they so wish.

My point is there are different rules in different countries. And I don't think any of us visiting hunters have the right to tell others what they should do.

I have absolutely no wish to hunt with a bow and arrow.

Do I have the right to stop those who love bow hunting from using their method to hunt?

Go and hunt.

Use ANY LEGAL METHOD allowed in the country of your choice.

quote:

wouldn't it be more effective to change the law?

Absolutely no doubt there Larry.

But while the Kiwis go through the process of getting the law changed I don't see a problem with shaming the unscrupulous pr&%ks who by their patronage of the helihunt operators, cause the practice to continue.

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:

quote:

wouldn't it be more effective to change the law?

Absolutely no doubt there Larry.

But while the Kiwis go through the process of getting the law changed I don't see a problem with shaming the unscrupulous pr&%ks who by their patronage of the helihunt operators, cause the practice to continue.

IMO some of those unscrupulous p`s don't exactly know the fuss they are helping to cause..the true unscrupulous p`s are those that offer such services and boy aren't they at times quick to post up pics in places.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Sorry Aaron, there are a number of statements there in which you are wrong.

Fact: like it or not it is wealthy tourists who are doing this. I'm not saying that as any form of put down, its just how it is. A tahr at 5000 may be cheap, but few people come here just to shoot a tahr. Its the 20,000 dollar stag that is generally the original draw card.
70% of these people are American, 30% Austrailian. Almost no europeans partake in this form of hunt.

Sorry but you misrepresent the hunters visiting New Zealand with your alleged facts.

Matt,

This is called " divide and conquer".


Our friends from New Zealand are shooting themselves in the foot with these silly arguments.

FACT: Most hunters, worldwide, do not like helihunting.

BUT: Instead of people in New Zealnd stopping this practice by changing their own laws, they are having a go at hunters who come from other countries and participate in what is being offered.

Now it is not others huneters from other countries, it is the bloody RICH YANKS and RICH AUSTRALIANS.

So by extension, they should stop American and Australian hunters, and by extension, this sort of hunting will just die all by itself.

Here is how I look at it.

If I fancied a helihunt in the present time. I will go and helihunt where ever it is available legally.

The locals can scream their heads off as much as they wish.

They are no different than the some locals in Africa complaining about "foreign" hunters destrpying "Their" natural resources.

They seem to fortget that "their" government has made this legal, and are benefitting of all the foreign money coming in.

you guys are incredible! you ask for fact's and then get upset when they are given. Nowhere Saeed,did I say bloody rich anything or by extension mean anything. Fact! The makeup of helihunters is largely American and Austrailian. Thats all. The international hunters that are in a position to uptake this from these companies are by and large wealthy. Just an explanation of the stereotype that exists here, and not just amoung the hunting community.
Don't put words in my mouth.
Money coming into this country???So what, its irrelevant and a pittance.Nothing more than a sad justification. And how do you get away with using money as a positive justification of this activity and decrying those who use it as a negative?
At the end of the day this whole forum is built on opinions. We express ours on an activity that effects us in our country. If others don't like that then tough. Nowhere does it say we have to pat you on the back for shit behavior.

Wooow... this thread is still alive.

Matt Graham - we do agree sometimes . Thanks

Todd - I read your posts and realise you are an experienced and serious hunter. You just do not "get the point" with us kiwis. Try and look at this from an "non-American" perspective.

1. We are a samll country with less than 100,000 active hunters (my guestimate).
2. Our game resource is very limited and we get competition from areal poisoning, meat recovery and restricion of access by some farmers who are trying to corner the public resource.
3. So heli hunting REALLY PISSES US OFF!

The class warfare comment is a two edged sword. The average kiwi hunter is less well off than most US or European hunters. Hunting is not a common hobby or passion among the well to do. Even among professionals, it is not common. I am a management professional and all my hunting buddies are middle class "Joe Blogs". In the last 20 years in NZ, I have hunted with one doctor, a couple of engineers, 5 other managers or businessmen and the rest have been just middle class guys.

Then you have the cultural factor - Kiwis are very egalitarian - they do not show deferance to status, position etc. In Wellington you may go to a pub in the city and be drinking at the bar next to a Cabinet Minister (I have been in that position).

Finally the BIG issue I have with some guides & some heli operators - blatant arrogance, greed & criminal exploitation. You regularly see heli operators / pilots linked to criminal activity - stealing green stone in the South island, poaching deer from choppers on private land and getting away with it because you need eye witnesses plus photos of 2 landmarks to convict the thief, invovement in a huge marijuana operation in the Whanganui national park in 1996-97 .... and so on. The last one in the dope operation involved over 100 cops in the raid in the deep interiror bush on foot. Intiallay 2 choppers were impounded and one pilot was caught on the ground. The heli operator pleaded ignorance and claimed that the pilot was a rogue who had leased the chopper for the day claiming he had agricultural spraying to do. According to my sources in the police fore, it was strongly suspected that the chopper operator or one of the partners was involved but never caught.

There is a history of animosity between some chopper operators and ground hunters. One example - About 20 years ago a chopper operation in the Taupo region came to an abrupt halt because someone broke into the hanger and cut the rotors with bolt cutters and smashed the windshield. The reason - the pilot was poaching or recovering deer and fired a shot towards a ground hunter to scare him away!

Most heli operators and guides are honest and this is not ascribing any guilt by association.

Believe me - Heli hunting is a very emotional issue here and so is 1080 poisoning of deer.

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:

But while the Kiwis go through the process of getting the law changed I don't see a problem with shaming the unscrupulous pr&%ks who by their patronage of the helihunt operators, cause the practice to continue.

The hunters are the unscrupulous pricks??? What a joke!!!

You are talking out your arse...

Let's be clear on this Matt.

You don't believe the clown who pulls the trigger on a thar that has been run to exhaustion isn't unscrupulous. Is that what you're inferring??

I'll put another scenario to you, I've got the money, can I go hunting with your outfit, pay for a helicopter to run a buff bull around a bit, keeping it close to the 4wd of coarse, I don't want to walk too far......and then when it's utterly shagged with its tongue hanging out....I'll shoot it.

Can I do that with Hunt Australia???

quote:

Originally posted by johnfox:


I'll put another scenario to you, I've got the money, can I go hunting with your outfit, pay for a helicopter to run a buff bull around a bit, keeping it close to the 4wd of coarse, I don't want to walk too far......and then when it's utterly shagged with its tongue hanging out....I'll shoot it.

Can I do that with Hunt Australia???

Johnfox i dont know if that chopper service is offered,however with the amount of money and so little time available to many of the Capt Fatso`s there is always the possibility that some do or have and of course there is the 'other method' which is that many bovines have been shot out of the ute window,over the bonnet or standing in the open doorway of the ute,not really the way is it for so called big game....lots of methods are used to bring home the bacon and at the southern end of the continent the spotlight comes to the fore in pursuit of sambar and hog deer,thats a blood boiler!And there are some big names that have used this method too.

Footnote,rest easy Matty... there is no inference that Matt`s mob (HA) does any of the above.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Sorry Aaron, there are a number of statements there in which you are wrong.

Fact: like it or not it is wealthy tourists who are doing this. I'm not saying that as any form of put down, its just how it is. A tahr at 5000 may be cheap, but few people come here just to shoot a tahr. Its the 20,000 dollar stag that is generally the original draw card.
70% of these people are American, 30% Austrailian. Almost no europeans partake in this form of hunt.

Sorry but you misrepresent the hunters visiting New Zealand with your alleged facts.

Matt,

This is called " divide and conquer".


Our friends from New Zealand are shooting themselves in the foot with these silly arguments.

FACT: Most hunters, worldwide, do not like helihunting.

BUT: Instead of people in New Zealnd stopping this practice by changing their own laws, they are having a go at hunters who come from other countries and participate in what is being offered.

Now it is not others huneters from other countries, it is the bloody RICH YANKS and RICH AUSTRALIANS.

So by extension, they should stop American and Australian hunters, and by extension, this sort of hunting will just die all by itself.

Here is how I look at it.

If I fancied a helihunt in the present time. I will go and helihunt where ever it is available legally.

The locals can scream their heads off as much as they wish.

They are no different than the some locals in Africa complaining about "foreign" hunters destrpying "Their" natural resources.

They seem to fortget that "their" government has made this legal, and are benefitting of all the foreign money coming in.

Saeed this post can be read as a lack of respect for local hunters in countries other than your own.
I sincerely hope this isnt the case, for if it is, you have already divided us.

I will repeat again that those "hunters" who undertake unethical practices like helihunting or shooting caged lions are far worse fodder for the antis. How do you defend "the hunt" as justifying bloodshed when no hunt takes place?

quote:

They seem to fortget that "their" government has made this legal, and are benefitting of all the foreign money coming in.

No Saeed our government has not 'made helihunting legal', they just haven't got around to making this use of helicopters illegal. This may sound like splitting hairs but there is a big difference.

Shooting from helicopters has never been illegal as such in NZ and in fact was developed and encouraged by our government departments charged with protecting our environment. Initially when our big game animals were all classed as noxious animals, it was open slather by any method to kill as many animals as possible by whatever means, including poisoning, shooting on foot, shooting with spotlights, shooting from boats, shooting from vehicles and of course the most effectively, shooting from choppers. Over the years due to some consideration to the rights of trampers, mountaineers and hunters to also enjoy our wilderness areas, some forms of control on helicopters have been introduced e.g. licencing, no fly zones in national parks, exclusion zones in other public areas etc.

Many kiwis have made use of choppers to access the wilderness hunting areas carrying in enough food and shelter to allow extended stays in these areas for hunting, just as they and many hunters around the world have made use of boats, 4WDs, horses, ATVs, Ski-mobiles, fixed wings etc. Nothing wrong with this use of choppers and accepted by most as just another form of transport.

Apart from the professional shooters carrying out culling, many ordinary kiwis hunters over the years have shot animals from choppers for various reasons, the experience, to help out a professional crew (one of my friends killed while doing so), and in my case to shoot a few chamois for a visiting German Professor's research. To all ethical hunters shooting from a chopper is a pretty cold blooded form of shooting animals but make no mistake it is as exciting and dangerous as it ever comes and quickly sorts the boys from the men. It is seat of the pants stuff hanging out the open door of a Hughes 500 held in only by your seatbelt as the chopper hurtles around mountains and rivers only meters away from trees and cliff faces and then hauling up or backing down hill to keep up with fleeing animals as you try and get a shot in, all the while trusting in the pilot to not prang you both into oblivion. This would come close to being the ultimate adventure. I have flown with the army boys in their choppers in similar country on search and rescue and they are like a snail to a cheetah compared with the chopper shooters. I am sure given the opportunity under the circumstances of our burgeoning animal populations, most ethical hunters would give this a go, once maybe, or maybe more if they acquired the taste for it.

So for years we have had legalised helicopter cull shooting and transport for foot hunting with most all kiwis and visiting sport hunters only using choppers for transport. It is hunters with monied means who have created the market for outfitters to offer helihunting. The fact that it is 'legal' has nothing to do with our government 'making' it legal. We do not need restrictions on using choppers for transport, there is no need for it and no harm done by it. We just need to ensure that outfitters and hunters have the ethics to themselves desist from the practice of helihunting.

I see no issue in decrying any hunter publicly posting on forums who openly admits to taking trophies in this manner and proudly showing them off. Peer pressure is usually the most effective method of changing things not more laws.

quote:

Originally posted by ethos:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Sorry Aaron, there are a number of statements there in which you are wrong.

Fact: like it or not it is wealthy tourists who are doing this. I'm not saying that as any form of put down, its just how it is. A tahr at 5000 may be cheap, but few people come here just to shoot a tahr. Its the 20,000 dollar stag that is generally the original draw card.
70% of these people are American, 30% Austrailian. Almost no europeans partake in this form of hunt.

Sorry but you misrepresent the hunters visiting New Zealand with your alleged facts.

Matt,

This is called " divide and conquer".


Our friends from New Zealand are shooting themselves in the foot with these silly arguments.

FACT: Most hunters, worldwide, do not like helihunting.

BUT: Instead of people in New Zealnd stopping this practice by changing their own laws, they are having a go at hunters who come from other countries and participate in what is being offered.

Now it is not others huneters from other countries, it is the bloody RICH YANKS and RICH AUSTRALIANS.

So by extension, they should stop American and Australian hunters, and by extension, this sort of hunting will just die all by itself.

Here is how I look at it.

If I fancied a helihunt in the present time. I will go and helihunt where ever it is available legally.

The locals can scream their heads off as much as they wish.

They are no different than the some locals in Africa complaining about "foreign" hunters destrpying "Their" natural resources.

They seem to fortget that "their" government has made this legal, and are benefitting of all the foreign money coming in.

Saeed this post can be read as a lack of respect for local hunters in countries other than your own.
I sincerely hope this isnt the case, for if it is, you have already divided us.

I will repeat again that those "hunters" who undertake unethical practices like helihunting or shooting caged lions are far worse fodder for the antis. How do you defend "the hunt" as justifying bloodshed when no hunt takes place?

There is no disrespesct for anyone in my post.

If the governments involved wants to charge a lot of money for visiting hunters, that is their bussiness.

The locals should campaign to change the laws, instead of blaming foreign hunters.

In fact, I think in African countries locals can hunt just like a visiting hunter, but they have to pay the same price in foreign currency.