Ian,

I suspect that is how the Home Office would like the law to read, but what it actually says *might* be a different matter..

Of course the only sure way we will find out is when the Courts rules on the matter and the case goes through the various appeals process...

Until that happens, I'm happy to go with the standard Home Office "interpretation" the law; its just not worth the hassle (or cost) of trying to prove a point..

Regards,

Pete

+ I can really remember the last time a knuckledragger came home and sat cross-legged on my floor counting my ammo without a calculator .

Boggie/GH

Your technical expertise please -

My understanding is that the Home Office sets the law - which is then administered by the Police.

Is this the case - or do the Home Office interpret & administer laws from another, higher authority? The Courts?

PeteE's last post has me wondering as to the exact situation in our lovely country.

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-publications/p...irearms-Guidance.pdf
Chapter 3:17 refers to the issue of projectile holdings!

Rgds Ian

GHubert: I've been following this thread, and I believe that you're a starting reloader, is that a correct assumption? Sorry if not; I'm don't intend to offend anyone. I'm trying to help. You loaded a round, and it stuck in the lands? Back off a couple of 'thou! You're going to get some pressure, man!

Recommend you get a dial caliper. Drop a bullet into the chamber, use the stick at the base to measure depth to base of bullet. Cartridge length should be 2.005 for a 308. Measure bullet length; I can't find a 30 cal to measure right now but here it goes for my 6.5X06 to determine Overall Cartridge length, minis a thou for pressure.

Measure 2.265 to base of 129 Hornady Interlock bullet in the chamber into the lands. Bullet is 1.166 inches long. Case is 2.495 inches long. That leaves .230 of bullet in case stuck right into the lands. Bullet length minus .230 inches equals .930 out of the cartridge, to lands. 2.495 cartridge length plus .930 equals cartridge OAL of 3.425 inches touching lands. Back off 1/thousanths of an inch to 2.415 and you have a 6.5X06 round 1 thou off the lands. Good accuracy plus no pressure spike. Keep the bullet out of the lands! Not to tell you what to do, but an old soldier taught me that!

Now, 308. 150 grain Hornady Interlock kills 250 lb deer deader than a doornal. Speer is a soft bullet generally. Sierra is a hard bullet, generally. I use a 129 gr interlock, 140 grain interlock and 140 grain nosler in 6.5, plus 180 grain nosler exclusively in the 30 cal (30-06). The nosler expands real fast, but the base hangs together and goes right through an elk, a 700 lb animal. You never find a nosler bullet.
Shotgun

quote:

Originally posted by IanF:
Boggie/GH

Your technical expertise please -

My understanding is that the Home Office sets the law - which is then administered by the Police.

Is this the case - or do the Home Office interpret & administer laws from another, higher authority? The Courts?

PeteE's last post has me wondering as to the exact situation in our lovely country.

http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/news-and-publications/p...irearms-Guidance.pdf
Chapter 3:17 refers to the issue of projectile holdings!

Rgds Ian

Hi, i'll try and get a barrister friend to look at it, but briefly legislation is codified into the statute books by acts of parliament. These acts are then modified or superceded by further acts or by statutory instruments and a few other means. The law is as is written in the statute as interpreted by the courts. sorry for the tortuous phrasing on the last sentence but it literally is that pot luck. Like Pete E says contentious litigation over a point of criminal law to clarify the application of the statute is something best observed than experienced considering the mandatory sentencing involved.

I’ll pull the acts of 68 and 97 and push them under some distinguished legal noses….


Amir

EDIT: Ian the home office does not have any special law making powers, it has many special powers granted to it by law. whether a home office edict is legal or not needs to be tested in court in case of disagreement.

It's all about interpretation of the statute/statutory instrument. Unfortunately the HO interpretation is likely to be followed though I am happy to be a test case.

I will bow to Amir on this one, I just wear a tie and play on AR all day. Sometimes those pesky clients bother me!

I'm with Amir on this one, you are best not being involved. I was slightly involved in a most trivial way in a challenge to British law that went the whole way to the ECHR where we lost, despite being assured by many that it was a sure bet and having the best barristers and representation. At that level there is just too much political horse trading for the small man to stand a chance unless it suits someone else for it to go in his favour.

It must be said that I find the firearms situation interesting just because local police forces seem to make up stuff which, that I can see, has no basis in law at all e.g. the requirement to have DSC 1 to get the deer variation. Their justification for this seems to be that your certificate is issued if the CC thinks you are suitable and so any challenge to these made up "laws" would see you deemed unsuitable. So, even if you challenge the made up "laws" in court and win you find that you don't get your certificate back because you are not considered suitable because of the challenge.

Now as it is I don't have any particular objections to the made up "laws" by which I have to abide and have no thought of mounting any challenge but while we are discussing the abstract world that is the law I thought it an interesting point.

In the end the HO provides guidance as to how the law will be applied in order to get some consistency across police forces. If each force had its own man decide how to apply the law we would have lots of variation and get into a situation where something that would put you in jail in one area would be considered by police on the ground (i.e. not necessarily the courts) to be perfectly legal in another area. So, it makes sense to have the HO produce these quidelines for the sake of consistent application. As others have said: they are not the law but they offer police a useful guide as to how to behave on the street. The law can be sorted out in court afterwards, if you have the cash. If you don't have the cash then it is probably best to follow the guidelines. :-)

Hi fella,

Interesting the point about the challenge barring you from the certificate, i'm not sure it'll stand up. the conditions for refusal based on attitude amount to basically understanding yur duty of disclosure to the police in the terms of the acts and remainng polite. If you comply with the statutory requirments in your dealings with police they cannot declare you unsuitable for seeking clarity. Which is of course what we are doing.

Ask 10 barristers and you will get 10 opinions, but a barrister that says that a court outcome is a sure fire thing in any of the higher courts is to be treated with caution. Just my humble opinion.

I'm not even going to attempt to answer Ian's Question until i have all found all of the acts, 1937,1965,1968,1981,1988,1994,1997 plus more i think, and the statutory instruments, god knows how many of them, plus any other acts which might have a reference a firearm.

It is a loooong process i'm afraid but once all the information is sifted through i will buy a barrister lunch and get his opinion.

Edit: coroach, this would not be a challenge to british law, it will be asking the courts to clarify a piece of legislation with a view as to it's application.

In lay mans terms, as I understand it, the main stream British Justice system is divided up into three supposedly independent parts:

Parliament, who with "assistance" from the House of Lords, produces Laws which when signed off by the Sovereign, goes onto the statue books.

The Police administer these laws under the broad direction of the Home office. Theoretically at least in many areas the Chief Constable is still very much his own man and does not have to tow the Home Office line..

The Courts then enforce them ie sit in judgment on individual cases, but will also rule on the exact meaning of a particular law if required. This latter aspect has an appeal process which in certain instances can ultimately lead to a ruling by the Law Lords, which is the highest court in the UK..These days there is also an additional appeal stage ie the ECHR..

Our Courts again have interaction with the Home Office, but in theory are independent...

There are also their strange "quirks" to our Law in that different justice systems exist within the Parliament, The Church of England and the Military, and possibly some of the older Universities as well...

Regards,

Pete

Going back to the issue of buying bullets though; if you have family in the states and periodically come over, then it is well worth buying your own whilst here, if you have your FAC with you you can bring them back.

Barnes TSX seem to be the most expensive bullets you can find anywhere, but they are not much more expensive in the US than Sierra's in the UK. With 500/550 buy/hold, how often are you going to stock up anyway?

Your choice of the 308 is a good one. It is one of my favorite calibres and I use it a lot.

I would recommend a Blaser R 93.

I would also recommend a good quality scope, a variable with around 3 power or so on the low end and 10 to 12 on the high end.

I would get an illuminated reticle as well.