Just a quick question if you please chaps.

After much soul searching and discussions with sensible friends I have decided on 308 and so the forms go in and I begin looking around for a rifle!

Fallowbuck mentioned the other day that there are plenty of things to get in the meantime like binos, sticks, safe etc. by the time the ticket is back from the FEO I should have these bits and around a grand for the rifle and optics, possibly a bit more.

Question is do I go in for a second hand rifle and scope combo or a CZ, Howa, Titan etc probably with a fixed six S&B Hungarian for around the same money? What is the collective wisdom?

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Amir

Hi Ghubert

Firstly good choice of calibre IMO. .308 is perfect for what you have in mind also inherently accurate and easy to load for etc.

Personally I would go for a Howa out of the rifles you mention with a 8 x 56 Hungarian Schmidt and you will have some change out of the 1000 quid.

You can't go wrong with that set up and I am amazed at the qulaity of these Howas for the money.

My brother got the stainless version in .270 and using an old load with 4831 and 140 grn BT's it is clover leafing at 100.

Just my opinion.

Amir,

Jon's advice is spot-on. Net, for the novice a simple, quality rifle & scope set-up will buy you alot of milage. Use the KISS principle; you'll be much happier in the long run (Jon & I are aligned on this). As you aquire expereince there's always the opportunity to upgrade bits & pieces as you develop personal preferences & shoting & stalking abilities.

For typical UK High Seat Shooting & Stalking - a 6x42 scope is never a bad selection but like Jon I prefer his fixed 8x56 reco also; it'll buy you alot more early morning & late evening twilight time and give you some added magnification for all the load development & shooting practice you're going to do.

Don't forget the the Tikka's either a good, solid rifle at a sensible price, too.

As for the cartridge selection +1! .308 Win. is a mild shooting, adequately powerful cartridge and very accurate with easily obtained ammuntion & componets.

Have fun with your selection.

Hi Jon

Thank you for your reply, I really fancied a 6.5x 55 but there especially since I want to go down to Bisley as much as possible before next fallow season the 308 seemed the way forward for convenience.

Interesting that you recommend a 8x rather than a 6x is this due the larger scope being better at low light conditions? I have no experience of Howa. They get good write-ups in the rags though and I’ll take a look. For clarity are you saying that for one’s first rifle, new is best in terms of confidence in the equipment? Just asking not meant to sound accusatory!!

Amir

+1 On those advice,

G- stay on track now, get the Howa and the scope, get good rings and a ton and a half of ammo.

Remenber shooting skills are required skills through training and are to be considered to be like dairy products, they sour quickly.

Best regards Chris

Hi Gerry,

Thank you for your reply, there doesn't seem to much price difference between the 8x56 and 6x42. As a side issue the hungarian 8x is available with an illuminated reticle, Is this worth having at twilight?


Amir

Hi Ghubert

I am saying go for a new Howa as they are cheap enough not to bother looking for a second hand one. The advantage of this is that you are starting from a clean sheet so to speak so you know where you are upto from the outset.

In terms of the 8 power I feel it gives you a little more versatility and as Gerry says the 56 objectives are very good in twilight conditions. Although the 6 x 42 is also a perfectly fine choice.

As to the illuminated ret you will love it if you get it but not a necessary feature. I find bullet placement in very low light conditions on a dark fallow doesn't require the same level of concentration if using an illum ret.

Hi Chris thanks for posting.

Ah... I see Howa = cheap as second hand.

Just one question, does the howa come in wood/blue, I just like it....

There are quite a few good makes out there, CZ's are always cheap and an absolute workhorse. Try the Sportsmansguncentre.com, they do 550's for about £370.

You might want to use an experienced friend (not me please) to help you pick out a used gun if you spot a good make at a good price. As several members have advised, I would definitely use most of your ££ on the scope. An 8x56 would be great for most stalking applications, and handy if you are after smaller deer like roe/muntjac.
P.S. Check out Tikka they are nice guns too.

Amir- I have an affinity, is that the right word?! for ilum reticles, however that is just me and for the conditions we are allowed to hunt under in Sweden.

Wildboar, fox and all other small game, 24/7, large game, roe deer and up, one hour prior and until one hour after sun set are the allowed hours.

During a full moon in glistening white snow it´s really hard to se where that reticle is on a black outline of a fox or wildboar.

The same applies for those dark evenings in late fall

The amber red dot or cross can at times be the deal breaker between taking a shot and not.

Best regards Chris

Amir, some good advice here.

I have looked at a bunch of new Howa's recently at my local dealer. I was really impressed with the quality for the price.

He was offering a deal of rifle only for around £465 or kit with rifle, scope mounts and T8 mod for around £695.

They have pretty good quality synthetic stocks.

Get a syn / stainless that has been pre-threaded. You will eventually want a Moderator, even if you don't think you need one now.

You don't really "need" an illuminated reticule for British stalking, but they are excellent and I personally would not be without at least one scope so equipped. The S&B 8x56 IR will be excellent. For a few quid more, if the budget will bear it, think about a Swaro fixed 8x50 IR. These are excellent and quite a bit lighter.

I would rather see a guy with a good working rifle with a really good scope, than a dearer rifle with a cheap scope.

Amir

Is it not great to hear such a consensus!?!

Go for the Howa as a 'first' rifle - get one of the Hogue 'sure grip' sporter stocks and ideally a stainless action. 6x42 is my preference as I like lower mounted, smaller, lighter scopes - however 8x56 is a solid recommendation.

£483 is the current rrp for such a rifle - and an extra £250 will get it threaded and include a Wildcat Predator moderator.

That combo will go ANYWHERE in the world and the .308 will take 99.9% of the game you see. It will be nice enough to be proud of - but tough enough to stand up to the rigours of stalking.

Don't forget, these include barbed wire crossings as well as crawling and forcing your way through thick cover. All conditions designed to make the owner of a gorgeous stick start weeping!

Once you have this 'do it all' rifle - THEN start looking for the nice bit of wood, more exotic calibre, different action etc - as your tastes and experience mature. This will ensure you limit your 'miss buys'!

Above all - enjoy!

Rgds Ian

Thank you Chris, I think affinity is the right word, it all depends on what you do with the scope i suppose It is the exact scenario you mention that occasioned the question. Seems to me to be that £380 plays £600 where the first is the non-illuminated 8x and £600 is illuminated. Is it worth the difference? I should say that the budget is not set in stone, but I would like to keep this below £1000 if possible as it means i book more days stalking!

Hi Brian, thank you for your specific advice, it just what I need.

Just a question and I realise I sound a bit whingey on this but must I get a synthetic? I know that the stock shouldn't warp or crack but plastic expands with temp variation just like wood.

At the risk of being a little coarse when holding and hunting with a synthetic I get the same feeling as when hunting and holding synthetic breasts....

Amir

Ghubert,

The Howa is a very good rifle for the money, but so is the CZ550...I would recommend at least handling both in a shop before deciding..

As for scopes, its hard to fault S&B in either 6x42mm or 8x56mm, but I'd also strongly consider a Meopta Variable as well, or maybe a used Swaro Nova 6x42mm if you can find one...

With regards the Howa,if you're going to buy a decent scope, I wouldn't recommend cutting corners on the mounts and bases by getting alloy ones...Warne and Weaver Grandslams are steel and worth the extra over the cheaper alloy ones..

Regards,

Pete

Amir, if you want a timber stocked rifle, go for it. This is your first rifle and you need to like it and have confidence in it.

However, you have asked for opinions and you have been offered a general consensus here by a bunch of experienced guys (not me, I am a bluffer). They are pointing you in the direction of a generic, mid weight, sporter style rifle with good quality optics. Everyone pretty much agrees in a weather resistant finish.

What these guys aren't really saying is that we have probably all spent hundreds if not thousands of pounds on kit might have looked very nice, or was maybe in non-mainstrean calibres, that was later traded off at a significant loss for gear which does the job in an efficient manner.

What I am really saying is - listen to these guys. A dozen of these lads (& Artemis) put 54 deer in the chiller in two days. It was not an accident.

My two stalking rifles have wood stocks, they have never been a problem. Scratches are battle scars and add character!
I have a CZ 550 .308 which is an excellent rifle.(if a bit over powered for fallow)
I had a S&B 6X42, but changed it to a Meopta 7x50. Like it so much I bought another one for my 308! Meopta are great value, well worth a look. I have an illuminted cheapie on my .22 magnum, but never use the illum feature. I certainly would"nt buy a scope just for the illuminated reticle.
You don"t need to spend a fortune, and there are few really bad rifles.
Rifles can be a bit like women. You have to try a few before you really know what you want!
good shooting

quote:

You don"t need to spend a fortune, and there are few really bad rifles.

I think you hit the nail on the head BT, most rifles shoot much better than their owners and will be around long after we are too old to hunt! If the price is right, and it feels 'right' then go for it.

Another vote for Meopta I have a 3-12x50 and personaly I think that they are every bit as good as S&B at a lot less money. I seen the howa's at my local dealer at at £700 for it threaded with a wildcat it is a real good deal.
my advice is buy a rifle YOU like and buy the best scope you can and spend lots of time at the reloading bench and even more time at the range!

Hi Amir,

As you may recall I am just a few months ahead of you in this process so I can't speak from much experience but I can say that in the end I basically did what folks here are recommending and I'm glad I did it.

I went for a 308 Blaser R93. This might be a little more than you want to spend but then several factors that might not exist for you, I'm left handed for a start, took me to the R93. At first I too wanted wood, I set out to buy a Sauer with nice wood, but am glad I went for the plastic stock now. Maybe my next rifle will have nice wood but while I'm learning the plastic has been great and it is nearly impossible to make an expensive mistake with cleaning solvents or similar. If you will never buy another rifle and you want wood then go for it but as others have said you can add the unusual calibres or harder to look after stuff at a later date and do the learning with something simple. That has certainly worked for me over the last few months. If other folks here are recommending rifles then I am sure they are a great job but try to get to handle a few before you buy, the Blaser just felt right for me when I tried it and it may be you will have similar feelings with CZ, Howa, Tikka or similar.

I also went with the 8X56 Hungarian S&B. I picked it up second hand for not an awful lot of cash. It might be a bit heavy for this, a bit low powered for that and a bit high powered for the other thing but on average I've found it works just fine and have no complaints. The extra bit of magnification is great for practise at the range but is still practical in the field and it works where other scopes drop by the wayside. Of course there are other makers offering similar quality and features but I'm glad I went with the fixed scope and that I went for good glass and I think if you go down this path you will not regret it no matter what the name on the scope is. If you want additional features then you can buy another scope down the line and you will probably not lose much on the S&B, specially if you get one 2nd hand.

Brian also mentioned the confidence thing and I think that keeping things simple has a role to play there. I have no knobs or buttons to fiddle with and, therefore, when I practise at the range and miss it is my fault and I am not adjusting things or whatever. This helps me build confidence and gives me no excuses and that is a good thing.

Ghubert,

Good luck in your new rifle no matter what you decide on. I like the CZ for the money they cost, I have also never encountered one that would not shoot.

I live in a wet enviorment not unlike England (except for 6 months of the year our wet comes in the form of snow) For that reason I would give a strong recomendation to synthetic stocks.

I do preferr the asthetics of nice wood and blued steel but synthetic and stainless is much more practical.

As far as this... At the risk of being a little coarse when holding and hunting with a synthetic I get the same feeling as when hunting and holding synthetic breasts....

Rifles are rifles and tits are tits some are for looking at and some are there to get the job done, and in the case of a rifle that is to put blood on the ground.

Make your first hunting rifle a workhorse go horse, not a show horse. You can get a "pretty" gun later.

Best Luck

I saw a Meopta 3x10?x50 IR in a shop today [Moy] 2nd hand,good condition for 380quid.
It looked in good shape and thats not a bad price.Can forward you the details if necessary.

Amir,
I think your other choice a 6.5x55 is better than the 308 for deer stalking in Britain. If you want a good servicable rifle with a wood stock then for the money a CZ 550 is very good value.
Scope.
Don't skimp, get a Swaro, Zeiss or if you can't get either of those a S&B. You won't need anything more powerful than a 4x but if you must then 6x is the largest to go to.
Sorry if I have muddied the waters.

There's little point in having a mind of your own if all you do is agree with everyone else.

Hi Oldun

I don't want to make this into a calibre debate or else we could be at it all day and 6.5 x 55 would be a very sound choice but I have to disagree with you when you say it is a BETTER choice than .308 for UK stalking.

.308 would be the perfect calibre for the criteria which Ghubert is looking at and I would say is ideal for UK stalking.

All good advice. Interesting that Tikkas appear to have fallen off their pedestal. Time was (before the T3) that they would have been #1 for this application!

How are you going to protect your hearing. It might start out as 'just the odd shot without hearing protection in the field' but pretty shortly you will be on the road to tinnitus, deafness and all that completely avoidable unpleasantness.

My advice is a pair of high quality rifle shooting ear muffs such as the peltor tac XP for the field used in conjuction with passive ear plugs for the range. Best of all get a good moderator right from the start so you are never spoilt by the easier handling of an unmoderated rifle.

Amir,

I'm back in the fray after some serious flurries of exchanges above. Really obvious here that everyone is pitching in with their very best efforts to assist you in making a solid initial selection.

I tend to the synthtic, the Howa makes a very nice rifle for your considerations (especially with their new Hogue rubber-coated stock) as does Tikka (syntheitc but without the rubber condom effect). I've got some really nice wood on a couple of stalking rifles and they do tend to get babied. The synthetic stock makes your rifle the tool it should be and a reliable one at that. After the AR weekend my R93 OffRoad stock got the soap, water & scrubbrush treatment to remove the coupla coatings of Baldock mud. Musta had some Cow Poop in it 'cause it took several applications to get back to black plastic.

Kiri's advice on the scope is exactly as mine - don't bother to spend the extra $$$ on an illuminated recticle, either in a fixed power or variable scope. I just HAD to have one when they were all the rage and now would happily have saved the $$$ and have purchased that particular scope without this function. They distract me in low light, I end up focusing on the teeniest bit of red instead of the target and find the battery is dead or almsot so when I do decide to use it. for some it may be a good aiming aid but it's not gonna make the sunshine when you are attempting to find that Fallow Deer in the last bit of twilight. (I'm a Baby Boomer instead of a Generation Y type too, so not too hung-up on electronic Gidgets & Widgets). Besides, with European Recticles in a variable scope where the recticle is applied to the first focal plane the Red Dot gets smaller (read:minute or VERY small) with less power at, say 1.5X or 3X so those who claim it can be used for Drive Hunting must have VERY good eyes indeed because when turned all the way down it is the size of a pin head instead of the soup plate which is required for this type of shooting.

Get a quality, 6X or 8X scope and jsut get on with it!

Whew! Oh, Yeah, keep the KISS principle in mind.

I think the IR scope in the hands of someone who has a bit of field experience is a good tool. I use mine fairly regularly for fast target pick up in low light. I don't think it is necessary or even desireable for a beginner stalker.

This may be a bit controversial but something that may allows a novice to take shots in less than ideal conditions is going to leave the possibility for problems. Once there are a few dozen deer in the chiller and anatomy, reading shot presentation, shooting ability etc are a little more honed, then the tools that aid low light and longer range shooting can be brought into the mix. For now they are just one more thing to think about when really all you want to do is put the bullet in the right place.

For now, any good inexpensive accurate factory rifle like the Howa or Tikka will do everything you want it to do, and a scope with a reticle you can see clearly is going to do everything you want it to do too.

That said, for around £1000 Rick should be able to get you a Howa, Swaro 6x42 or 8x50 (I prefer the latter and only £15 more money), good bases/rings, Sling and sling swivels and a slip. Add a couple of hundred quid for a PES moderator and you have a bit of kit you will use for a long time to come.

The rifle I bought the day after I got my ticket is still the one I'm shooting deer with on a regular basis and that cost me under a grand all set up, so don't think that this gun will need upgrading in the future. You will simply have the urge to buy more guns (because you can) but I bet the 308 will be your "Old Faithful" in 10 years time.

Have fun looking at the options though!! Like some of your other analogies; sometimes the build up is the most fun...

Rgds,
FB

Good morning gentlemen and thank you for all the detailed replies. This information is truly invaluable, why don’t the magazines print anything as useful as this?

Ian, thank you for posting, I discussed the Howa with Rick Whiteley, easier going to him than a gun shop I had a surreal experience in a gun shop in Coulsdon once and have been nervous ever since, and his comment was that the Tikka was only a couple of hundred quid more. I got the impression the Sako barrel and trigger swung it for him. Interesting in light of 1894’s comments.

Brian, I hope I don’t come across as anything less than very grateful for all your and everyone else’s advice, I just have to ask about these things… In the mags and on some other sites people warn you off everything that’s not in fashion at the moment so I didn’t know whether the wooden/plastic debate was roughly analogous to the 375h&h/378weatherby debate or not. In this case however, I will admit that the consensus is irresistible!

Brass, would you rate your Meopta 7x50 as the optical equal of the S&B or Swaro fixed power? I ask as I was looking at them but thought the expensive Teutonic had the best light transmission et al? You’ve made the choice a three way now!

Caorach, Hi thanks for posting. I agree with your KISS ethos and can see your reasoning, spooky thing is even Fallowbuck has told me the same!! Hard won experience there I think!

quote:

Rifles are rifles and tits are tits some are for looking at and some are there to get the job done

Uglystick, sir, It is an honour to be addressed in such terms with such succinct wisdom! With your permission sir I should like to use the above quote at work and socially. I am in your debt!!

Oldun, mate don’t!! Its been hard enough! Oh the pointless agonising at the most inappropriate moments, these days if someone at work asks me “ are you thinking what I’m thinking†I have to reply “probably not†and change the subject. Also good is when you forget yourself and casually tell the pretty blond polish receptionist that you’re going stalking on the weekend……

1894, thank you for your post, I had not really thought about hearing protection thus far. In all honesty I didn’t hear either of the two shots I fired on deer, but realise that the rifle must have indeed gone bang! I hadn’t thought about a moderator either but will look into it, Ian has recommended a Wildcat, any others worth considering?

Gerry, good to hear from you thanks for your words I hear what you and others about the IR. I’ll see what I can find and just go from there..

Kiri, that’s just what I was thinking, I don’t really want to take a marginal shot and then have to find the beast in the dark etc. given that I’ll probably hang onto this rifle, as I’m trying to get a “99.9%†outfit as Ian puts it, would it be worth having for the extra £200? I don’t think the IR will encourage me to take a shot to late as I will not put the crosshairs on the beast until I have decided that I will shoot him. In that case the conditions will have been assessed to take into account factors like light and retrieval.

Sorry for the long post chaps, I just want to say thanks again for all your help and encouragement. I’ll be doing some range time with Rick tomorrow and then a stalk in the afternoon.

Can’t wait!

PS. sorry for the analogies.....

Amir,

The answer is that everything is worth having if the money is available. Funds are always the trade off. Having met and spoken to you I wouldn't put you down as being of a particularly "nervous disposition" as is evident in many new stalkers, and I'm sure you will be sensible with your shot selection. However saying that I don't have IR on my aforementioned rifle and I don't miss it when a deer comes out at last light. I shot a Buck at Baldock in the lowest light conditions I have ever shot in and the 8x56 Swaro lit him up like someone had put the lights back on. It doesn't have an IR. If you can buy a Swaro with or without IR and the funds allow buy it with. If you can buy a swaro without or a S+B with, then go for the Swaro all day long and don't give it a second thought.

When I was a lot less experienced I was trying to buy a gun that would cover all the bases. 1894 said something at the time that has stayed with me, along the lines of

"guns you own will go in an out of your favour over the course of your stalking carreer regardless of how perfect they were when you bought them."

I suppose whatI'm saying is that there is no right answer to many such questions apart from do you like it and does it shoot well enough for your needs. Have a look through the IR scope and it you feel your chest tighten and a sudden rush to the head then get the credit cards out!!

I thought Rick would tend towards the Tikka and there is nothing wrong with that. Also if he can get you a second hand Sako in 308 then you are really cooking on gas. Any of the guns mentioned will do the job for you. Get your Binos sticks etc all in one package and tell him you want Kiri prices He'll look after you and you know the kit will not let you down.

Give me a call later at work if you get a chance. I'm about in the morning tomorrow to rollover some more Fallow so we might be able to meet up for breakfast if it suits?

Rgds,
FB

Second hand Sako 308 delus. £650.

http://www.guntrader.co.uk/OldSearch/GunImages.php?NewGunID=060401204003005

A very nice rifle.

hmmm....

Thanks mate!

A

My comment about the T3 was merely that no one had mentioned it not that it wasn't any good!! I have no experience of the T3 but 3 years ago would have suggested an M595 Tikka as the only sensible option.

Regarding not hearing shots - your concentration has filtered them out but they do just as much damage as the ones that cause you to wince when you're on the range.

I've not felt the need for IR in 10years. I would go so far as to say that to be in a situatino that you need an IR and not have a dog to assist in finding the shot at deer would be foolish.

In fact a dog would be the best tool you could get. Worth getting the crappiest rifle and other gear for if you can get a decent dog.

quote:

Originally posted by 1894mk2:
...3 years ago would have suggested an M595 Tikka as the only sensible option....

3 or 4 years ago, you would have been right!

The T3 is a well designed rifle IMO but it lacks the feel of quality that the 595 series has.

If now in that market place I feel there are cheaper rifles out there that are better in quality (read Howa). When the T3 first came out, I bought one for my dad and at £480 you couldn't complain. They have now gone up considerable in price and I feel they are now priced out of the market.

I think the main thing that steers me away from the Tikka T3's is the amount of plastic where there should be metal!

Trigger guard, magazine and magazine well, along with the bolt shroud are all plastic, and I've started to read accounts of some of it breaking in use..

The Tikka also has a cast receiver, again to save a little on production costs no doubt..

Having said that, you rarely hear people complaining about their accuracy, and the trigger is usually very nice straight from the box.

The CZ and the Howa are built more traditionally, ie with actions machined from a billet of steel with no major components made of plastic...

Both my Howa and my CZ550 are accurate, but both needed a little TLC out of the box to smooth their actions a bit and adjust/tweak the triggers...Doing neither was an issue and the triggers and actions are spot on now...

With regards the Meopta 7x50mm, I have one about 15 years old and have or have owned a Swaro 6x42mm Nova and various German made S&B's including the 8x56mm

In that time I've compared the various scopes side by side, and to me, the Swaro 6x42mm was the best all rounder. It was as bright, if not a touch brighter than the Meopta and to me felt better built than the S&B fixed powers. The Swaro also seemed handle difficult light better ie glare from the sun being low in the sky.

Having said that, the differences were small, and none of the scopes have given me any problems..Swaro & S&B might be "better" in absolute terms by small amounts, but Meopta's are damn good and excellent value for money..

Regards,

Pete

Chubert.
The only thing I like to add is about the scope.
www.eurooptic.com in USA sells Zeiss Conquest to a very good price.
The owner Alex is a gentleman to deal with and I have bought several scopes from him lately.

I just got a Conquest 3,5-10x50 with reticle #4 to top my Kimber Montana in 308 Win.
Price today is $650, but if you mail him he usually gives a better price than listed.

You should defenately consider this scope as it is a lot of quality glass for the money.

How would a 8x56 be "brighter" than a 6x42?

Amir, get on ebay and buy this scope if you fancy a 6x42:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SWAROVSKI-6-X-42-HABICHT-SCOPE-pl...021207QQcmdZViewItem

Bumscratcher,

If the quality of the glass and the coating are the same, an 8x56mm will always be brighter than a 6x42mm due to the higher "twilight factor" which is a mathematical calculation based on the objective size and the magnification of how much light is transmitted through the scope.

In the real world, where different company's use glass and coating of differing optical quality and where scopes may even contain different numbers of lens, the results are often not so clear cut, especially at the top end of the market..

Hence, although I expected my 7x50mm Meopta to be brighter than my 6x42mm Swaro, in fact the opposite was true by a tiny margin, and that was no doubt due to better coatings being used by Swaro at that time..

Regards,

Pete

I have a tikka T3 lite stainless in 6.5x55 and I am going to change it for a Sako 75.
Tikka has lost it BIG time! I know two guys who both have Tikka 695's in 6.5x55 and both were very well finished and very accurate. the T3 is nothing more than an average rifle just because the bean counters have been at there work. it is a real shame, and I'm not the only person who thinks this as here in N.Ireland Tikka 595/695 are making more money s/h than they were when new!

quote:

Originally posted by bumscratcher:
How would a 8x56 be "brighter" than a 6x42?

Bumscratcher, an 8x56 has a better / higher twilight factor than a 6x42.

Put the two side by side at the edge of dark and you will see it.