The T3 is the product of Beretta's marketing department wanting a rifle to retail at sub $600 in the USA and hence compete on price in that mass market.

They have destroyed a great brand and they are in danger of dragging Sako down along with it.

claretdabbler
If you are using the 7 mm formula then they come out the same! 8x7=56 7x6=42. Yes i have done the side by side test many times.

quote:

Originally posted by 308mate:
I have a tikka T3 lite stainless in 6.5x55 and I am going to change it for a Sako 75.
Tikka has lost it BIG time! here in N.Ireland Tikka 595/695 are making more money s/h than they were when new!

As a happy Tikka 595 owner - I would recommend them in an instant. As has been mentioned, same barrel as on a Sako and a nice trigger takes some beating....

However, now the T3 is the available option - I cannot in all conscience suggest it OVER the Howa. Quality of construction has plummeted. Not to say that they are not accurate - just of a construction that will be everything you dislike.

Cheap and tacky in my opinion!

EDITED as a sudden thought strikes me - assuming that you can get one, consider a Stainless Laminate Tikka. There we have a combination of function and appearance that may well appeal..... at a price!

Rgds Ian

Bumscratcher, twilight factor is the square root of the obj lens diameter in mm x the mag.

Hence the TF of an 8x56 is about 21.2, the TF of a 6x42 is just short of 16, the TF of a 4x32 is just over 11. Given similar quality glass, this is a decent indicator of likely low light performance.

I should add, what you are calculating is the exit pupil.

quote:

Rifles are rifles and tits are tits some are for looking at and some are there to get the job done

Uglystick, sir, It is an honour to be addressed in such terms with such succinct wisdom! With your permission sir I should like to use the above quote at work and socially. I am in your debt!!


Pleased to be at your service. It is not often that a colonist can improve the venacular of someone who lives in the land of the Kings English...

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
The T3 is the product of Beretta's marketing department wanting a rifle to retail at sub $600 in the USA and hence compete on price in that mass market.

They have destroyed a great brand and they are in danger of dragging Sako down along with it.

Here Darn'nunder the Tikka T3 light is very popular and considered to be one of the best value for money rifles on the market.
Well there you go.
Sako, on the other hand, are seen as not being as good as what they once were.
There you go again.

The only thing on this thread that I might quibble about is the scope issue.

I honestly don't see much use on a hunting rifle (not a varmint gun) for magnification higher than 6x.

I have some 3x9 variables but rarely use them set at more than 6x (even in a stand). Recently, I find myself more and more choosing smaller variables like the 1.5x5 Leupold VXIII or 1.5x6 Sightron. If shots are ever going to be in tight cover, you'd really like the smaller magnification. However, if all your shots will be in open country, I wouldn't have the slightest problem going with a fixed 6x scope.

Troy

Troy,

What you need to appreciate is that two of our deer species that are routinely stalked over here are quite a bit smaller than your Coues Deer.

To give you an idea, the carcass of a mature roe buck, with the head and lower legs off, but skin on , might weigh in the 30lb to 35lb region. Yearling bucks, mature does, and yearling does will typically weigh proportionally less.

Below are a couple of mature roe does I took earlier this season..Both had well grown kids at foot I might add...







The other species, Muntjac is generally even smaller...The pic below is a young muntjac doe, probably not yet a yearling..She was taken as part of a cull program to control numbers on a bit ground I stalk..The does can come into season from about 7 months of age or sometimes a little earlier and from then on are prolific breeders, hence the need for control.



Add the fact that both species are often taken from highseats (tree stands) where the ability to thread a shot through the adjacent foliage to connect to a beast in cover and you start to understand why higher magnifications are somethings used.

I am not keen on a fixed x8 on a stalking rifle; I don't happen to think its very versatile. Having said that, I know a few people who use them with a lot of success..I know even more who favour a 6x42mm and that is very much a classic over here..

Personally, I like a variable in 2.5-10 to 4-16 range, with an objective that is between 40mm to 50mm in size. Mine usually stays on x5 power while stalking on foot and then gets dialled up as required...

With the quality of the scopes being discussed here, apart from price, these days there is no real reason to favour a fixed over a variable...

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
With the quality of the scopes being discussed here, apart from price, these days there is no real reason to favour a fixed over a variable...

Despite having an 8X56 I have to agree with you Pete. However, as a beginner I like the fixed because there is nothing to fiddle with and I saved some money on it which I put into the rifle but was still able to get good glass. If money is not an issue then there is no question that a variable is a good bet but if I were to do it all again with loads of cash I'd probably still go with a fixed as my first scope.

Also, and again this is a beginner thing, I think the fixed helps me recognise my limits. At 100 yards I can shoot into an inch with reasonable confidence, at 200 yards it opens up to maybe 2 - 3 inches but if I go to 300 I can see groups of 6 - 8 inches. Clearly 200 yards has to be an absolute maximum for me at the minute with much closer being better and I think not being able to "zoom in" on a long distance target is maybe useful in view of my lack of experience.

The one advantage I've found in having a little more magnification over a 6X, which is what I started out looking for, is when I practise at the range. Again you might say, with justification, a variable would be a better tool for the job. However, with the 8X56 I have one simple and relatively inexpensive scope that seems to do everything I, as a beginner, need pretty well.

If I had the £800+ that a good variable might cost to be honest I'd probably still stick with what I have and put the money into a few days for stags in September. When I've a few more days like that behind me and a clearer picture of my limitations then I might start looking for a variable and working on my ability to take advantage of the features.

Pete, that is a hell of a nice rifle - Sako I think?

Brian,

Thank you...yes its an M591...

Its currently away being rebarrelled to a .260Rem and will sport something like a 2.5-10x42mm scope when its done, which I think will make it better balanced than the Swaro in the picture, which is a 3-12x50mm...

Regards,

Pete

Hi Pete, in the next month or two I am going to take a dose of my own advice and buy an older pre-m75 Sako and get it re-barrelled to 260.

I have been watching guntrader for a sutiable doner. About two weeks ago I spotted a Sako AII which Steve Kershaw had for sale which he had re-barreled with a Lother Walther stainless in 6.5x47 Lapua. I know nothing about this round, but by the time I had looked it up and went back to check on the rifle with Kershaw, it was gone.

Just have to bite the bullet some of these days.

Brian,

Although theres not a lot in it, the Sako's AII's are definitely a better rifle than the M591 series and I would hang in there until I found one..If you happen to find a long action one, you might want to consider the 6.5x284, a round much favored by the long range crowd or maybe a 6.5x55...In fact, the 6.5x55mm in an AII Sako would be a very classic combination!

My late father bought me my Sako, so I am hanging onto it for sentimental reasons...

The older (pre plastic!) Tikka's are also very nice rifles although I forget the model numbers now...

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Troy,

What you need to appreciate is that two of our deer species that are routinely stalked over here are quite a bit smaller than your Coues Deer.

I knew Roe were small, didn't know Muntjac were in the equation. Was also thinking about Fallow and Red Stag which are larger than your average whitetail.

That said, I spend quite a lot of time in the wood stalking tree squirrels - I have 3x9 on my primary squirrel gun, and rarely use more than 6X on that scope either, and that is in thick cover as well.

Troy

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Troy,

What you need to appreciate is that two of our deer species that are routinely stalked over here are quite a bit smaller than your Coues Deer.

To give you an idea, the carcass of a mature roe buck, with the head and lower legs off, but skin on , might weigh in the 30lb to 35lb region. Yearling bucks, mature does, and yearling does will typically weigh proportionally less.

It seems the suggestions are swinging my way. A 308 is far too powerful for such small deer.
As I recall there has been a consistant cry in Pomgolia that the 222Rem is enough for Roe.
I'm still backing the 6.5 for Fallow which are not a big animal either.
Yours Darn'nunder.

quote:

A 308 is far too powerful for such small deer.

You sound just like anti-gun politician!

Anyway, what makes you say that? The awful carcass damage on the muntjac doe?

quote:

You sound just like anti-gun politician!

Anyway, what makes you say that? The awful carcass damage on the muntjac doe?

An anti gun politician? Go wash your mouth out.
What was the little Munty shot with? Assuming it was shot and not just shouted boo to.

All good stuff, very informative reading.

Got back from stalking with Rick yesterday, and went in with a rather more focussed perspective.

We had a range session with his 308 PRS and a moderated 243 sako 75. The 308 is of course sweet as anything but the I shot the tightest groups this time with the 243. the reduction in kick and flip in the 243 meant that I was shooting it better. Would a moderator on a 308 give the same benefits or does the 243 just kick a lot less; the difference was considerable, with the 243 i could maintain the sight picture under recoil but not with the 308.

I also shot off sticks for the first time, Rick had some fun at my expense by piling on the pressure on when the first two shots were grouping reasonably, he would announce from behind the spotting scope "ooh... not good, gut shot deer..." and I couldn't help but to wobble more on the third.

Raised a question as to technique with sticks, is there any best practice? I shot about 4-5" at 100 off the sticks on average.

At last light the crosshairs were still clear btw, so I guess I don't need IR...

Regards,

Amir

Oldun,

It was shot with the .308win using 150grn Speers and still managed to leg it about 20 yards into the thickest snowberry patch you can imagine!

I've posted this before, but the pic below shows the path of the bullet in a Muntjac I shot a while ago where the .308win failed to exit...



It entered top right of the pic in the "usual place" but instead of exiting more or less opposite, it skidded along the off-side ribs before ending up in the pelvis area...You can see the meat damage along the black line...

Not what you'd expect from a .308win on an animal which had a carcass weight of about 25lb...IIRC range was about 30yards...

Pete,
That's interesting.
I"ve seen the same sort of performance from Speer bullets on roe deer. ie shot in the chest and the bullet lodged in the rear.
Tell me, assuming it was a reload, was the bullet crimped in place?

Oldun,

Nope, just sat in the case using a normal seating die...When I've made a mistake, I've pulled the heads out using a Redding bullet puller in a second press I have, and while the heads are "firm" they are not crimped...

I've come to the conlusion that the Speers are a bit soft as I've shot a few broadside Reds and its about 50/50 whether they exit..

When I work up a new load for my .308win Howa, I'm going to try some 150grn and 165grn Hornady Interlocs or Interbonds and see how they perform,

Regards,

Pete

Pete,
Speer do seem to be soft.
You might try, if you can get them, Remington Corelocked 150 grain bullets in the 308 .I've found them to be reliable.
Hornady bullets have been good too.

Pete

Regarding the Hornady Interbonds - I have used them in my '06 and found they grouped easily.

The short range performance on soft animals (Roe) was not what I was looking for. Don't get me wrong - they killed like the hammer of Thor. Drilled through in a straight line and experience shows they retain 90^ or so of their weight in a textbook mushroom shape. Artemis will be taking them to Namibia in a couple weeks as they certainly seem to make calibres punch above their weight - and we have Eland and larger antelope on the menu.

Problem is that initial expansion is dramatic - and offside damage was not acceptable - fist or soup plate sized wounds being the norm when bone was hit.

FWIW, if unsure regarding the performance of the Speer SP - I would bite the bullet, so to speak, and pay for Barnes TSX. The initial expansion does not seem so dramatic, they hold together and penetrate in a straight line.

Amir - apologies for the direction your thread has taken!
Rgds Ian

Regarding bullets, i would like to recommend the 150 grains SGK SPBT for all game deer sized and less.

I have shot more than a few deer now with this bullet in my 308 Win and it really seems to work at the modest speeds from a 308.

Amir- the moderator will do the same kind of job on a 308 Win as well, a significant reduction in percived recoil.

A thing to remember a 243 Win barrel will last about halfways to that of a 308 Win number wise, when you are busy learning to shoot well and do shoot a lot of rounds the 308 Win will be the better round.

Best regards Chris.

Hi Ian, no problem! All good information and my question has been comprehensively answered any way. It'll save me posting on bullet choice in future in any event!FWIW I used the SGK on the deer I shot, like chris says seemed fine hit ribs both times on the way, calibre hole in, good damage and 1-2" exit. deer dead within 30 yards.

thanks for the info on the moderator, I will be wanting one for sure after saturday.

Ian, with regard to the Hornady Interlocks, I agree with you completely. I use them in my 6.5X55, 129 grains on Sika. I appreciate that a Sika is a different proposition to a Roe, but the initial expansion is ideal for a tough beast like a Sika. The furthest a Stag has ever gone has been about tweny yards and the Hinds just seem to fall over. I have some in 140 and 160 roundnose that I shall try this year.

John

Amir are you following me? :-)

I had the same experience as you with the 308/243 thing, though the 243 wasn't moderated, and then I tried a 308 with a moderator and immediately added one to my paperwork for the FAC. If you still have your paperwork then put one on otherwise you will have to apply for it as a variation. I don't know why they need the paperwork for a health and safety device but it needs to be on your certificate.

I would imagine a moderated 243 has almost zero recoil based on my experience with an unmoderated one and the mod on the 308 will see a very noticable reduction in recoil for you.

I found that at first I was a little recoil shy and tended to flinch with the 308 but practise at the range as solved that problem. As with anything practise seems to be the key so don't panic if you go through a phase like I did as it soon goes away. The point Chris makes about barrel life in the 243 was certainly a factor in my decision making process. To date I've fired maybe nearly 1,000ish rounds of 308 at the range and I've seen some people quote 243 barrel life at 1,500 rounds. Not a factor for the experienced perhaps but a significant factor for the beginner who wants to take advantage of every opportunity to practise.

In spirit it seems!

The reason we stopped using the 308 was that i managed to chamber a round and extract only the case and primer! Bullet stuck in the lands and no cleaning rod put an end to the session. I even had a cunning plan to place a bit of soft expanded foam between my shoulder and the buttpad to see which gun left the bigger dent, I then hoped to be able to judge from the dents the recoil between the two cals and the degree to which the moderator made a difference to the recoil on the 243.

The recoil of the 308 was not scary, the groups were as good as the 243, just that it would jump off aim much more, I think it's muzzle flip i don't like rather than recoil per se, I used to play prop for my school 2nd XV so not really bothered being walloped!

Sadly I then put the rifle out of action and decided, discretion being the better part of valour, not to annoy Rick with leftfield ideas on recoil comparison.

Silly really 243 < 308

moderated x < unmoderated x

simple really....

...must fight...new hobby urge....getting obsessed with minutae of equipment....

Regards,

Amir

I absolutely love my 243 (as regulars will know!) I've shot a lot of fallow with it and find that it works extremely well indeed even on bigger deer providing care is taken.

But for some fallow stalking I've picked up I find myself using slightly larger calibres. This is because it's further away (so any difficulties have to be sorted out then and there) because it's solely fallow (most of my other stalking is muntjac, roe and fallow) and because I now have another moderated rifle (7mm08)

Would I recomnend that someone starting out on predominantly fallow shoot a 243 without a dog - well despite my love of it I'd think twice. Buck fever, the ability to judge angle of game and a whole host of other factors means that someone starting out is more likely to slightly misplace a shot. I am by no means convinced that marginal shots are any more effective with a 308 than a 243 but it is worth erring on the larger side.

What does Rick think?

I'm with 1894 on this one, a 243 is a great stalking caliber but in your situation where you are likely to be stalking fallow deer (as the most commonly hunted species in the South East) a 308 is a more approprate caliber. Especially as you intend to go to the range on a regular basis.

Also, I think you will be surprised by what a difference a good moderator does to the rifle. I think you'll find that muzzle blast is the single biggest (unconscious) factor that affects people's shooting. I know that I only started making multiple kills once I started using a moderator and that in itself is reason enough to buy one.

Also, as you fancy giving the Arran reds a whirl at some point a 308 would be perfect there. A big woodland red in the roar is the toughest animal in the UK and you want to be confident of your gun. Hell I hear they are commonly shot at 500 yard there

Think of it this way, you could easily tell the coppers that you need a dediated 'small deer' gun after a season or so, due to excessive carcass damage. As your premise in getting your first smokepole is to get the ultimate all-rounder, the 308 wins hands down.

I have used SGK, hornaday interlock softpoints and SST in both my 308 and 6.5x55.
the SST are the most accurate bullets I have ever used ( they shot into 1.5" at 300m in my 308!) but anything that hit with looked liked they had stepped on a land mine! the normal cheap soft points from do the job the very best and with good shot placement do hardly any meat damage at all.
Fallow are very soft deer and are not hard to kill, I've stopped using my 308 on them as there is no need.
A 243 will drop fallow (or any other deer in the UK) all day long

Hi Adam, Rick will not be drawn into discussions on things like calibre, Kiri ruined it for me when he suggested that as a wind up i tell him that 6.5 x 47 Lapua was THE uk deer cartridge and that i would be getting a Nightforce 6x24x56 with side wheel to go on top.

He said the tough choice was with regard to the rifle; with regard to calibre he said that 6.5 is good as is 308,260,7x57etc.

His quintessentially English predilection for understatement precludes him saying anything like as direct as

quote:

Rifles are rifles and tits are tits some are for looking at and some are there to get the job done, and in the case of a rifle that is to put blood on the ground

but one suspects his sentiments are run along these lines. Worse still he suspects I have a tendency to overcomplicate matters ( thanks again Kiri ).


Typically, He said go for what ever you (I) can shoot well. Having not shot a deer with anything other than a 308 I’m not sure about the difference in terminal effect. The second deer I shot was exactly as you caution, new angle, seen through an opening in the scrub and therefore looked further away than it was and taken in excitement. The result was a terrible shot too high and far back. It turned out to be a hit it in the kidneys, took the bottom off the spine and there was bruising between the plural membrane and the intercostal muscles all the way up to the shoulders, but it went down very fast. Would a 243 bullet in the same place do the much the same? When the shot is good the 308 renders them very ill, very quickly.

The only concrete thing he said was that with a limited ammo allowance it would be easier to pick up 40 rounds of 308 at Bisley vs 6.5. A very good point I thought as the FEO indicated that he would expect to see an allowance of 40 buy 60 keep. That’s only 20 three shot groups!

I will definitely want to go to Arran, that sort of stalking is why I persevere. Stillness and solitude are very precious commodities, sadly rare also. I can’t imagine a finer time than stalking an Island with all of your senses keening for a glimpse of a neck or back to provide for the possibility of a shot.

Boggy you know me too well!

Regards,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
...FEO indicated that he would expect to see an allowance of 40 buy 60 keep. That’s only 20 three shot groups...
Amir

Are you serious?

I thought we had it bad, I am allowed 500 of each calibre I have on permit.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

A very good point I thought as the FEO indicated that he would expect to see an allowance of 40 buy 60 keep. That’s only 20 three shot groups!

Amir

Amir

That is not even mildly amusing - as you will be reloading your own rounds you will require minimum of 200 hold and 100 purchase. This as the bullets (heads) count toward your allowance and are commonly sold in 50x count boxes.

You will be reloading your own 'as it enables me to practice at a reasonable cost, get the best accuracy out of the rifle - and lastly, avoid having to rezero every time I purchase a box from the RFD.' (They don't always have the brand/batch you require)

Talk to Rick some more - regarding just how incredibly complicated it is to load a round of .308! (Tongue firmly in cheek)

Rgds Ian

quote:

This as the bullets (heads) count toward your allowance and are commonly sold in 50x count boxes

Small tangent,

There was a letter in the Shooting Times a couple of months back that said that heads counted on your Ammount to buy ticket but not on your in possession part, as this only related to complete rounds of assembled ammo...

Sounded wrong to me but very nice.

Rgds,
FB

This was the preliminary phone call to the FEO revealed. He was quite cool otherwise, suggested 30-06 as a suitable calibre!

Thanks for your wording Ian, I shall amend the forms accordingly and expand the covering letter to suit. I want ot reload more or less from the start so thanks for that!

Kiri's question intrests me greatly, I have family in America so if it is the case that heads, expanding or not, don't count towards your allowance then happy days as i'll get 500 or whatever next time they visit.

Regards,

Amir

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Kiri's question intrests me greatly, I have family in America so if it is the case that heads, expanding or not, don't count towards your allowance then happy days as i'll get 500 or whatever next time they visit.

Be careful on that count Amir, I'm in Northern Ireland and the situation is different here but in England I was always given to understand that expanding heads counted as ammunition. Now it is possible that someone is chasing the legality of this definition but you probably don't want to annoy your friendly policeman at an early stage. Also you don't want your relatives arrested for having ammo when they arrive. How would you ever explain that to them when you bail them out?

erm, no that would incredibly difficult to make a smooth recovery from

thanks for the heads up!

Amir

Amir your relative could definately not bring you heads back to the UK as they are section 5 and they are unlicenced.

I only mentioned the article as I thought it a bit of a controversial comment by the shooting times journolist and was curious in case I was wrong in my understanding.

RGds,
FB

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:

quote:

This as the bullets (heads) count toward your allowance and are commonly sold in 50x count boxes

Small tangent,

There was a letter in the Shooting Times a couple of months back that said that heads counted on your Ammount to buy ticket but not on your in possession part, as this only related to complete rounds of assembled ammo...

Sounded wrong to me but very nice.

Rgds,
FB

FB - your gut was correct.

Home office guidance is quite clear on this - 'heads' count towards total allowable possession.

I can find the relevant wording if required.

Rgds Ian