Was wandering around my beat delivering salt and got some pics of late pregnant chamois female with last year cub:



just a preview about terrain those guys usually hang on. It is offseason now, and female is off the list tho just some thoughts. Hunter must use good judgment on taking a shot - the cliff in that instance (accesible with 1 hr "ease" from the left) is above some 300 m abyss. So shooting at that moment would probably end up with 20 kg hamburger meat, broken horns of the trophy and some extra 3-4 hours climbing or in case of a wounding some pretty exciting tracking with dog ...

Thanks for a great photo Mouse. It really gets the juices flowing.

Regards,

Tim

Mouse thanks for the nice photo.

I like to go hunting to Slovenia specially chamois.

r.
Seloushunter

I can never understand why the Chamois have to take risks and eat inferior grass on the side of a cliff, when they could be happily eating lush green grass in the meadows of the valley....
Nice photo, but I don't think I would bother shooting such a small one, let her grow/breed.

quote:

Originally posted by TrackersNZ:
Nice photo, but I don't think I would bother shooting such a small one, let her grow/breed.

Most likely quarry is selected based on age (and for does, possible fawns) and general condition as opposed to trophy size.

It is unlikely that a doe, which has reached the breeding age, will be shot before she is pretty old (often 10+ years), unless she happens to loose her fawn one year and is in poor condition. It is possible, but unlikely she will be selected on the basis of her trophy.

The fawn may be shot as fawn or as yearling, but after that, the age/condition criteria probably takes over. If it is a buck, 8+ years is commonly used target age.

At least, this is the way it would be in Central Europe, but I doubt Slovenia will be much different. We are all part of the same hunting culture.
- mike

indeed - we differ 3 age classes:

1. young (fawns, 1 and 2 y.o.) that bear the main number of take out

2. midle age (bucks 3-7 y.o. and does 3-10 y.o.) those are a definite NO-NO - sh@t happens and if you mess it up, it will cost you (management not a client) ~ 1200 € and loss of a trophy from next year quota

3. old - trophy class (bucks 8 y.o.+ and does 10 y.o.+)

sounds tricky, but if you follow some clear signs (with a bit of luck ) relatively few mistakes are made...

Can you tell the difference between a 8 year female and a 10 year female at 300 metres???? I've tried, but those growth rings on the horns get very small after 7 years, and often embedded in the hair. Be interested to know how you euro's do this with certainty.

no, the the growth rings on the horns are not visible for chamois - at least not at any distance. So you judge by different criteria, here are a couple:

- the colour of the face mask - the dark stripes will fade towards grey at a certain age. A chamois with a faded face mask is a pretty good sign.

- body shape. Bucks go all square and boxy when they reach a certain age, does often go "bony" at older age. Backs and stomachs start hanging at older age...

Naturally, this is not an exact "science" and mistakes are made. But with time and looking at enough animals, you can get pretty good at it.

For Alpine ibex, people do actually count the growth rings (with a spottimg scope) to determine age before shooting.

- mike

some examples of face masks:

young



middle age



old

Yes but the face masks also vary with seasonal change, i.e. Summer to Winter coat and not all chamois change at exactly the same time, so not always accurate to judge by colour.
I beleive in some europeon estates gamekeepers/guides know the age of individual animals, through familiarity, but to judge unknown animals on the hoof at distance, seems to me a very inexact science. I try very hard, but am often "Surprised"
You may like to have a try at aging the chamois in this photo:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5621043/m/206102826

Let me know your estimate and I'll tell you the actual age.

...the mentioned mask feature may vary with seasonal change tho the fade usually stays and is just one sign that should be taken in consideration among with others - as mho said body shape...usually if you see a tuft under buck's belly (standing broadside and leveled) it may indicate that he is 6+ y.o., also as noticed on that old aged buck there are remains of resin from dwarf pine on the horns, that usually means the same 6+...point is that if you see an animal that is really old you will know it, if you can't decide it usually isn't...guessing on yours chamois (it is just a pic after all) would be a long shot, since animal is laying and to judge it just from the features seen, beside not knowing anything on NZ chamois regional characteristics...might be anything from 3 y.o. on...

Any other guesses from Chamois experts???

Well,,, since we are being goaded, I'll be foolish enough to make a guess. Not that I consider myself a "chamois expert" - I don't hunt them nearly enough to make that claim. Besides, it is a bit unfair, since TNZ has had the opportunity to count the growth rings, and thus has the solution to the riddle, without even having to venture a guess on his own.

As Mouse93 states, it does not make it any easier that the chamois is lying down. That means we essentially only have the face mask to go by - all on a single animal (i.e. no comparison to the others in the group at the present state of the hair change). That is not a whole lot...

Still we essenstially have to decide whether the animal is shootable or not according to Mouse's rules as stated above. We don't necessarily need to hit the exact age, but we have to distinguish the age groups <3, 3-10, >10 (I'm assuming this is a doe, if not it surely has some pretty "doe'ish" horns). I think the chamois in the picture is clearly >3. But I would not be sure that it was >10. The somewhat faded face mask would tempt me towards 10+, but she is clearly not an age-old doe (more fading neded), so I would have to be a bit wary, in particular since the face mask is the only thing I have to go on. So, it would probably be best to let her walk, running the risk of having passed up on a perfectly acceptable trophy.

- mike

Oh dear...Oh dear....SHE????

Well ain't that fun - anything above could be true or false - that makes a chamois a great game (beats red stag or boar hunting for me)...no TZ it isn't an inexact sience, it is more a matter of a common sence with a bit of luck - as I said before, mistakes happen so in field I don't go with determination - I am happy with estimation so the rule of the thumb for me in the field is not to determine the age by year (it is only possible for animals up to 1 y.o. - I would look like show off, stupid and mostly wrong) instead I try to estimate it just on young, midle age and old and to make it right - I always take a good margin for error, i.e. if my actual lower limit is 8 y.o., I don't look for animal that looks like upper midle aged (that might be 8 or 10 y.o.), I look for an animal that looks realy old (would be likely 12 or more) and as with any other game: I never - ever count on just one or two features - I always look at the whole and look it from "up (possible old) downwards (possible young)" and if a single feature doesn't "fit" then I let it go and suprises become more exception than the rule

The age was 11 years and it is a male.

This is the problem I have with the Klasse system, especially with German hunters. There is price difference between Klasse 1,2,3 and the hunters are specific. It is complicated to get it right.

By the way, what is the oldest Chamois you have shot, or heard of shot. For me it was 16 years, not shot myself, but another hunter.

buck 12 years:



doe 15 years:



I was present when 16 y.o. doe was taken, and a national record trophy is/was a doe (trophy is missing since WWII), I have a picture of it in a book - I will try to scan it over weekend, it is/was enormous you will see

P.S. Note the typical hook shape difference between sexes that mho was talking about.

Would love to see that record doe.
The NZ record is a 12 year old male that had horns of 31 cm. I have never seen on ethat even comes close to this.
Do you get many Chamois/Gams/Rebecco with abnormalities/unusual horns. I often see them with only one horn. We also have a problem with horn rot, some sort of virus that eats away at the base of the horns.

...not many abnormalities - usually broken hooks or occasionally a missing horn or one of the horns with strange angle - however we had some serious problems with parasites like chamois blindness:



and still have problems with chamois scab:



those are deadly and highly infectious and decimate the numbers of chamois...sadly the core of those deseases is in the parks areas, where hunting is not permited so we are mainly restricted to marginal oppresion of infected animals that roam out of the parks boundaries...

source of pics: http://www.jagd.it/hochwild/gams.htm

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
...a national record trophy is/was a doe (trophy is missing since WWII), I have a picture of it in a book - I will try to scan it over weekend, it is/was enormous you will see

...well here it is:



it was shot 1908 in Karawanken (Kosuta), by Mr. Sonnbichler - score 127 CIC points from International show in 1938 (Berlin I guess)

P.S. here is the mountain Kosuta

A spectacular trophy. Wow.
When I get an opportunity, I will photograph the NZ record, and post it here.
The biggest I have personally shot was 26 cm.

I also shot an abnorm Chamois on Mount Kosuta ( Koschuta ) on the border to Carinthia ( AUSTRIA )
and was very happy with the hunt. I know some trophys growing very big there....

In NW Italy we are facing a rash of chamois blindness as well; we fear a 30-40% mortality rate.

Inspired by Nickudu's article , let me remind you that for me the trophy of chamois comes insignificant - it is hunt that counts the most - there are no or little flies on any decent mountain chamois hunt.

When I was a kid my father 8he was a hunter as well) told me a tale about mythological Goldhorn (white chamois with golden horns) that influenced my perception of the hunting and life as well. Here is a short abstract of the story (sorry about the translation, but you will get the point):

GOLDHORN

Once upon a time the Triglav mountains were covered with meadows full of flowers. They were the home of the white fairies and the white goats. They were protected by the white goat with golden horns - the invulnerable Goldhorn. If anybody would wound Goldhorn, a secret flower - "Triglav flower" would spring forth from his blood and cure him. Goldhorn's golden horns were the key to hidden treasures under the mountain of Bogatin. All these secrets were known to a brave, young hunter who lived in these days in Trenta valley. He was in love with a girl named Jerica. She was an innkeeper's daughter, a lovely girl whom many young men wanted to marry, but Jerica heartily loved the hunter from Trenta. He was the best hunter in the valley and people said he was under the protection of the fairies.
One day a merchant from Venice came to the village where Jerica lived. He gave her a ring, earrings and other golden jewellery. Jerica took the gold from the foreigner.
Being stung by the hurtful words of his beloved girl who was enchanted with the presents that the merchant from Venice had given her, the Trenta hunter decided to find the Bogatin treasure.
Sad and unhappy he thought that the only thing he could do at the moment was to kill Goldhorn, take his horn and open the underground cave under Bogatin where the treasure was hidden. The hunter found Goldhorn and shot him. He wounded him, but from his blood the miraculous flower – Triglav flower - sprang up. When Goldhorn ate it, he became well and strong again. In his rage he butted the hunter over the cliffs.
The fairies and white goats then left our mountains. Goldhorn led them away, nobody knows where. But before departing, Goldhorn devastated the sunny mountain meadows with his golden horns and turned them into a rocky wasteland, full of dangerous precipices. Many traces of his horns in our mountains can still be seen today .

P.S.

Goldhorn is a symbol of our national hunting association:



here is a post stamp dedicated to the tale:

This is a Switzerland Bünderland Chamois.

tracked this one on Saturday (gut shot) - but let the shooter to carry it - note the weaving mount (pic taken with mobile phone):



happy hunter after 2 hours of carriage :

I just love those Chamois.

Here are two taken from the Dart river valley near Queenstown New Zealand with a 243.

I will share a few photos from the past few months.

He guys this are fantastic Pics with some super trophys. Thanks for shareing

Seloushunter

13 y.o. auntie from our parts - just short of 105 CIC points:

WOW

Very nice Pics.
Cant wait to hunt " Gams " next week again with my Friend on the border Austria/Slovenia.


Seloushunter

That's it! Stop it! If Obama bin Ladin screws this place up I am moving someplace with hot and cold running chamois!