quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Flippy: You making the statement that no ones opinion is more valuable than anyone else's is just plain absurd!
Have you ever herd of expert testimony or professional opinion? Doctors, Lawyers or people considered to be experts!!!
Opinions like just about any other thing in life ARE very much subject to a value scale!
Sheessh - where do you come up with blather like that?
I just had two Hunters in last week and we Hunted together for 3 straight days. They were both near 70 years old and have been lifelong Hunters and shooters! One of them owns an extremely successful Gunshop and has personally been the business owner since taking that shop over from his father in the 1950's! He has Hunted on three continents, Hunts Game Birds, Waterfowl, Big Game and Varmints! He has participated in International and National shooting competitions for decades! Are you saying his opinion is only as valuable as say some rube of an English Country Dandy like yourself?
Sheesh!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

So now YOU'RE a doctor and I'M some rube of an English Country Dandy?
Sheesh!

Fact is fact and opinion is opinion.
Those who know the difference know the difference. Experts often disagree.

Being old doesn't guarantee wisdom, it only guarantees AGE...

VG

Thanks for the answer......I have no doubt that the little 17 will kill a coyote with a perfect shot (or a deer for that matter!)......but I wouldn't set out to do it......I would probably use it if that was all I had at the time and conditions were right.......

I have heard that the 17 is just about the perfect rifle for turkeys.......I wondered how bad it would tear up the bird???

Gon Huntin: I often Hunt in a secret and special area of Montana that allows Coyote Hunting only during Antelope and Deer seasons. The place is therefore absolutely over-run with Coyotes! It is very remote and no one goes there unless they are Big Game Hunting! Very few of the Big Game Hunters take the time or make the effort to just Hunt Coyotes there. I use "quieter" Rifles in this area as I Hunt Mule Deer there. The mild report of the 17 HMR is now my favortie Coyote getter in this area. I scout Mulies and Hunt Coyotes before the Deer season opens. I can't wait to get there this fall and add to my number of Coyotes taken with the 17 HMR. Before I got my 17 HMR Rifle I had used my custom 17 MachIV for Coyotes in that area.
Definite limitations on the 17 HMR are in order when calling Coyotes but my experiences and the experiences of others makes for enough confidence by me (in the 17 HMR) to use it worry free.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Long live the 17 HMR!

Flippy: Yes, you have proven you are a rube by your ludicrous contention that all opinions are of the same merit!
Where in the world have you been hiding your whole life?
In a vacuum?
Yes, I will repeat for your benefit, there is a definite difference in the merit of different peoples opinions!
To contend otherwise makes YOU a rube.
How many Coyotes have YOU shot with a 17 HMR flippy?
Lets analyze the real merit of YOUR opinion in this regard?
Or are YOU forming an opinion on the hear say of others?
Or worse yet - are you forming an opinion on sheer conjecture of your own, with NO basis from actual factual experiences of your own?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Flippy: Yes, you have proven you are a rube by your ludicrous contention that all opinions are of the same merit!
Where in the world have you been hiding your whole life?
In a vacuum?
Yes, I will repeat for your benefit, there is a definite difference in the merit of different peoples opinions!
To contend otherwise makes YOU a rube.
How many Coyotes have YOU shot with a 17 HMR flippy?
Lets analyze the real merit of YOUR opinion in this regard?
Or are YOU forming an opinion on the hear say of others?
Or worse yet - are you forming an opinion on sheer conjecture of your own, with NO basis from actual factual experiences of your own?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Since it took you two weeks to respond to my last post I will re-iterate my response for you (or "repeat" my last response in case you don't know what re-iterate means ):

quote:

Fact is fact and opinion is opinion.
Those who know the difference know the difference.
Experts often disagree.

At least your MachIV is a "real" rifle.

flipflopper: Do not try to change the subject here. I will not allow you to!
I ask you if you have been living in a vacuum and you have not responded!
I asked you to express your experiences with the 17 HMR and you have not responded!
I asked what is the source of your attempts at besmirching the 17 HMR and you have not responded!
You simply refuse to respond or can not respond in a credible way! You therefore are not credible!
Its no wonder then that you appear not credible and petty.
Me thinks you are full of unsubstantiated hot air as well as being "un-credible"!
Your contention that all opinions are of equal merit is also part of the subject here and now. And you are proving yourself a rube in continuing to express that contention!
Anyone with any modicum of life experiences knows that opinions (some of which are based on facts, education, investigation and/or some of which are based on experiences!) are not all of equal merit and for you to continue to contend otherwise is simply ludicrous!
The length of time it takes anyone to respond to your blather has no bearing what so ever on the scale of ridiculousness of the contentions you espouse!
You are simply way off base and refuse to accept reality!
Thats your problem!
How many Coyotes (I repeat - again!) have you killed with a 17 HMR, flipper?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Here’s one OPINION.

quote:

Originally posted by Tanker:
VarmintGuy:
I wish you the best of luck with your S&W. I have found problems to be a more common as of late. I don't want to rain on your parade but I have found the 17 rimfire to be just awful on prairie dogs. When several of my buddies got excited I told them that it would be far less potent than a 22 mag. but they had to spend the money to find out for themselves. The round can be amazingly accurate in a good rifle but killing power is pathetic. A good 22 mag is better at any range. In a pistol it will be even less of a varminter. I hate to tell of this but it is true. That 17 M2 will be even worse junk for varminting. Not just my opinion.

Here's another OPINION.

quote:

Originally posted by GonHuntin:
VG

After having used the 17HMR extensively..... would you say it is marginal or entirely adequate for coyotes???

I have killed a bunch of coyotes and have a fair idea what it takes to anchor one.....after reviewing the performance of the 17 HMR...and reading accounts from several other folks who have used it on coyotes....I personally don't consider it, or any other rimfire, enough gun to reliably and cleanly kill coyotes consistently.....but I'd appreciate hearing your opinion......

By the way.......since you mentioned that you believe the 17 HMR is superior to any other rimfire, I was just wondering how it compares to the 5mm Rem mag rimfire of days gone by????

Here’s TWO OPINIONS from people who don’t consider the 17HMR enough gun to reliably and cleanly kill coyotes.
So, for your benefit I reiterate:

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
1)11" difference at 200 yards? SHOW ME.

2)I NEVER said that ft/lbs ALONE killed, because that is not true.

3)I have no intention of selling my 22mag for ANY 17 rimfire.

4)I never accused you of owning a 17mach2, that's just what my friends brought.

5)When I want to kill "varmints" I use my 6mm or my .223. The 22mag is for "vermin."

6)MY Marlin 25M will shoot sub 3/4" groups with CCI +V ammo, other ammo it will not.

7)My critiques of the 17hmr are not baseless, however they ARE shared by many.

As I DID say:

The 17's, I'm not impressed unless it's a centerfire.
Then I would opt for a .204 Ruger.
The .204 is what ALL 17 caliber cartridges want to be when they grow up!

You still haven’t responded to my request to “SHOW ME THE DATA.†Probably because the data never existed in the first place, except in your mind.

To answer your question, I have killed no coyotes with a 17HMR. I have shot a couple of 17HMR’s out to 256 yards (lasered) and the trajectory was satisfactory. I also shot my 22MAG at the same targets. The only one you could actually hear hit the target was the 22MAG.

I have several friends that have owned and still own 17HMR’s. They wouldn’t and I wouldn’t use a 17HMR for anything the size of a coyote unless one wandered into shooting range (which for the 17HMR is about 100 yards max) while shooting “vermin.†But I would be using my 22MAG, not a 17HMR anyway.

You should have stuck with the MachIV…

quote:

Nobody's opinion is more valuable than anybody else’s.

I have many friends who have years of hunting experience (40+ years each) some agree that the 17HMR may be adequate (the key word here is “adequateâ€) for game up to and including coyotes out to 100 yards.

However, when I asked them if they were going on a coyote hunt and could only take one rifle, would it be a 17HMR, the answer was no. Several of them have killed coyotes with a 22LR (something they do not suggest repeating) and even they felt the 17HMR was marginally adequate for coyotes.

I am sorry that others experience and opinions disagree with yours. You’re just going to have to live with that.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
GonHuntin: I have taken exactly 2 shots at Coyotes with my 17 HMR's - and I killed two Coyotes.
Not much to base my opinion on there in actual useage on Coyotes - but I have heard of a local Hunter here in SW Montana that has killed 23 Coyotes with 25 shots. He and I - I am sure were not taking long shots at Coyotes. Mine were both right at 100 yard shots and one was a head shot the other a heart/lung shot.
I would not hesitate to shoot a Coyote at 100 yards or under with my 17 HMR Rifle.
There is a legion of better all around Coyote cartridges out there - but again - I would not hesitate to shoot a Coyote at 100 yards or under with my 17 HMR Rifle. I did kill a large Boar Badger at 173 laser ranged yards with one shot from my 17 HMR Rifle last year.
I shot a couple of the old Remington 5mm Rifles but never at game just at the range. I am sure that todays bullets are more game lethal than the ones used back then in the 5mm Remington's.
Trajectory wise I am sure that the 17 HMR is superior to the 5mm's of days gone by. I used to buy and sell the 5mm ammo at Gunshows and turned many a tax free dollar doing so. I am sure I sold the last of the 5mm ammo I had. I do still have some VL Caseless ammo that I have been thinking of selling. That VL caseless cartridge is another cartridge I have shot but I have never shot at game.
Coyotes do take some killing as anyone that has Hunted them for some time can testify to but do not sell the 17 HMR short - its is very lethal on small game and Varmints! Due I think to the high quality and the high speed of its projectiles.
I am sure I have now shot over 2,000 rounds through my 17 HMR Rifle and about 200 through my 17 HMR Revolver! That may be relatively extensive - only due to the newness of the 17 HMR. I will say this that 98%+ of those rounds sent downrange have been at small game, Varmints and also at several Wild Turkeys! I will again state that I am VERY impressed with the 17 HMR cartridge both ballistically and lethality wise on game!
GonHuntin to specifically answer your "marginal or entirely adequate" question about the 17 HMR on Coyotes I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer - way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes. That impression by me would not, though, keep from shooting some more of them from out around 100 yards and closer in.
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hmmmm?

quote:

...I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer - way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes.

But that's just one persons opinion...

Flippedlid: I see you are not man enough to admit when you are wrong or to even try to answer simple, direct and pertinent questions!
I thought so!
Instead of making a worthless post that consists 99% of my previous posting - why don't you try to answer those direct questions?
I think I know the answers already but I want to see if you have the where with all to enter into a real give and take on the merits of the subject!
Again I do not think you have it in you to answer those questions or admit you have NO expereience in the matter being discussed! My suggestion to you is back out before you damage your reputation even more than it has already been!!!
Let me repeat have YOU shot ANY Coyotes with a 17 HMR?
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

LET ME REPEAT MY DIRECT ANSWER.

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
To answer your question, I have killed no coyotes with a 17HMR.

And I have no intention in trying as the 17HMR is:

quote:

(...I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as) closer - way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes.

That is YOUR quote and my answer, VarmintRube. Try reading before posting next time.

By the way, where are those stats you promised me?

FlippingRube: I will ask you AGAIN!
Have you EVER shot a Coyote with a 17 HMR?
If not, how can you possibly comment on the situation???
I read your post! Thats why I am so amazed at your obvious lack of credibility in this regard!!!
Your opinion, then (I am assuming you now will admit to having never used the 17 HMR on Coyotes - or possibly on ANYTHING!) is less - WAY LESS credible than those of us that HAVE! In other words YOUR opinion is way less credible than other posters regarding this matter!
Lets get that upfront and straight - as I don't want any unsuspecting interested party reading your posts, unduly influenced by your GUESSES!
Still looking for my two year old Remington catalog! Be patient.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG,

I know you must not ever read magazines out hunting all the time and all, but... Since you're in front of your computer around the clock most of the time, I thought I would take a wild stab at it on the off chance that you probably [likely] read every gun magazine known to man.

Opinions, opinions. You seem to be putting values [yours] on certain opinions. Check out Layne Simpson's opinion in Shooting Times magazine this month or last month about the 17HMR.

R. Walter, I’m guessing VarmintRube never reads at all. We are apparently wasting our time with this self-proclaimed expert. VarmintRube is like one of my kids. He is right until HE proves himself wrong.

He bases his opinion on two kills at 100 yards. He obviously can't read as I repeated my answer to his question 6 days ago but his opinion is the only one that counts anyway. I work at a gun shop where we sell new and used weapons and I know many people who share my opinion on the 17Hornady Magnum Waste-of-money.

Two years ago people were coming in daily looking to buy 17HMW’s. Now I get as many people coming in trying to sell them because they aren’t what they thought they were originally. And the ammo is still way too expensive for the performance of the cartridge.

I can reload my 6mm Remington for less than the price of 17HMW cartridges and have a real 400 yard gun. Or I can reload my .223 for about the same price (or buy new ammo for that matter) and have another REAL gun. My 22MAG is for fun shooting. I would not consider it a true all-purpose varmint gun, although others would.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
...I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer - way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes.

VarmintRube, I believe that says it all…

VarmintRube, I could care less if I "lose" credibility with the people you know and others who share your limited opinions. I will sleep just fine.

If people read your posts and rush out and buy a 17HMW, I hope they enjoy it. Either way it has no affect on me.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
...I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer - way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes.

Again, VarmintRube, I believe that says it all…

R Walter: Yes I do most certainly put values on opinions and of course any thinking person does also.
For instance I give much more creedence (about a hundred times more!) to my first hand experiences and observations with and of the 17 HMR than burgerflippers opinions - as obviously he has never used one himself!!!
How about you R Walter have you EVER shot a Coyote with a 17 HMR?
If so what is YOUR opinion/
If not then why are you entering the discussion? To relay SOMEONE ELSE's opinion?
That does not make much sense.
And for your information I Hunt virtually year around for Varmints, Big Game, Upland Game, Turkeys and Waterfowl - and I have fun doing it! I also enjoy sharing MY EXPERIENCES and opinions with others.
In your OPINION (it sounds like) does the more minutes a person spends sharing ones experiences on a computer it then SOMEHOW correspondingly lessens the validity of that persons opinions? LOL! That makes about as much sense as flippy on his average day - none what so ever!
Seems you may be jealous or something?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Flipperflopper: So you insist on berating a cartridge you have ABSOLUTELY NO first hand experience with!!!
Stupid is the only observation that can be formed on your "opinion" then isn't it!
I stand by my premise regarding the 17 HMR and I base those opinions on extensive use in the Varmint fields, Small Game Fields, Turkey woods and at the range!
Your blather regarding the 17 HMR is simply that - baseless blather!
I think you should re-read this thread and pay heed to Sharpsman's early posting where in he espoused that he suggested folks should refrain from discussing topics they obviously (and admittedly in your case!) know nothing about!
If you really work at a Gunshop where "others" share your opinion on the "useless", "waste of money" 17 HMR cartridge then please provide the name and address of said shop so knowldegeable shooters can avoid wasting time by shopping there!
To declare the 17 HMR as being a waste of money shows your ignorance as well as your lack of real first hand experiences and objectivity. But then not only my friends but any knowledgeable shooter who peruses your blather, recognizes it as just that - baseless blather!
I wonder why 17 HMR's are so amazingly popular and are outselling 22 Magnums so handily?
Oh thats right the vast majority of shooters have been fooled by VarmintGuys OPINIONS!
No flipmaster, you are wrong again. Its the real world performance of the 17 HMR that has so many shooters excited about it and investing in it!
I do hope you sleep well but you have to acknowledge your blather has not turned the tide against the 17 HMR in the slightest.
And by the way in the last two years I have personally convinced 7 shooters to go out and buy their own 17 HMR Rifles! How you ask? I have simply taken them along on Varmint Safaris and allowed them to shoot my 17 HMR Rifle!
The first hand use of the 17 HMR seems to outweigh any effect that blatherers and naysayers occassionally emit!
I have, as yet, not heard of any of them being dissatisfied with their 17 HMR purchases!
If I might suggest again flippedout, go out in the field and to the range and get some first hand experience with the wonderful little 17 HMR then come back and espouse your opinion. Til then (as is obvious) your opinion is worthless!
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by R. Walter:
VG,
Opinions, opinions. You seem to be putting values [yours] on certain opinions. Check out Layne Simpson's opinion in Shooting Times magazine this month or last month about the 17HMR.

Shooting Times, June 2005, Page 46-50, side by side comparison. Especially read page 48. VarmintRube, since you add value to people's opinions based on how much “relative" experience the person has, how about Layne’s “relative" opinion based on HIS vast experience? Does even Layne Simpson have enough experience to satisfy you?

My “blather†as you put it, has not turned the tide against the 17HMW, the ammo prices and less than 22MAG performance is doing that.
Especially with some of the new 22MAG loadings that are out.

VarmintRube, I never said I didn’t have first hand experience with the 17HMW, I said I would not buy one or use one to go after coyotes.

quote:

Originally posted March 18, 2005 by Flippy:
from my first post
I was out with two friends that each have a couple 17hmr's and one has a 17mach2. We were out plinking, getting ready for killin' pests. We hung clays out to 75 yards or so. Fun range, nothing too serious, enough to shake the cobwebs out.

Funny things happened.
When we shot clays with a 17HMR, it left a tiny little hole right in the middle.
Looked like a BB hole.
When I shot them with my 22mag, it left tiny little pieces right on the ground.
Hmmmm?


The 17's, I'm not impressed unless it's a centerfire.
Then I would opt for a .204 Ruger.

VarmintRube, did you notice I said "WE"?
I can shoot anything that comes into the shop for free, so consequently I have shot many different guns and different cartridges including the 17HMW. And I have lots of friends that shoot, and we shoot each others guns also.
Why would I rush out and buy something I can try for free?

I get plenty of feed back in the gun shop where I work, from people who l have spent good money on a 17HMW and have actual experience with this cartridge in the field on various animals. Many bought their 17HMW when they first came out. Some even bought them from me. Some are happy with the results and some are not. You probably don’t get much if any negative input as your cronies are happy with their guns. Try inviting different people next time you go out, maybe you would get different opinions.

Some people that come into the shop have at least as much experience as you and your cronies, but it still boils down to opinion. None of them dispute the trajectory being favorable, I myself have shot the 17HMW out to 256 yards at steel targets, out to 135 yards at the range and at 75 yards at clay targets, and I do not feel it has any advantage over the cheaper to shoot, 22MAG. If I’m going to shoot animals over 150 yards, I’m going to use a centerfire anyway.

The possibility of slightly better trajectory or wind deflection does not overcome the major deficiency in power. The 17HMW may be as good a killer at it’s true hunting distance, 100 yards or less, than the 22MAG, but the numbers don’t support it.
As far as I know, the laws of physics have not yet been repealed.

As I feel, and Layne states in his article, the 17HMW may have adequate killing potential an SMALL game, but something the size of a coyote is a different matter.
You can’t always get a head shot or control all variables.

I have shot a 17HMW and a 22MAG, and I prefer to kill small things with a 22MAG. The ammo is cheaper, and it has more power. Judging by the article, so does Layne. Obviously my opinion on the 17HMW is shared by many.

Unlike you VarmintRube, I don’t have to actually stand on the surface of the sun to have the opinion that it is hot. Since my opinion is worthless, how about yours?

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
...I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer - way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes.

Yet again, VarmintRube, I believe you said it all…

FlippinBurgers: You show your true lack of knowledge and first hand experience with your continued blather regarding the 17 HMW (LOL at your repeated use of the incorrect nomenclature for the the 17HMR, in your lack of facts, latest posting)! I have grown to expect that from you by now though.
You, are not the only gunstore worker that espouses incorrect information - and you won't be the last! That is also a sorry situation, just like your lack of experience in the field with the 17 HMR and trying to persuade anyone DESPITE your lack of experience!
I have so far, this year alone, Hunted along side 6 Varminters that used their 17 HMR's with great success and virtually all of them have 22 Magnum Rifles that they did not use! Why you ask? Because they prefer the increased accuracy, flatter trajectory, greater wind bucking ability and the increased lethality of the 17 HMR over the 22 Rimfire Magnum!!!
Yeah, they (and I) could shoot anything we want (and we do!) and we chose the 17 HMR without exception. These several examples are not including the Hunters I have Varminted with in past years that prefer the 17 HMR over their 22 Magnums!
Back to your obvious lack of experience and your trying to impart gross misconceptions regarding the 17 HMR's lack of killing power!
The 17 HMR kills quicker and at greater distances than the 22 Magnum for many reasons - I will list just a few of them here and now -and remember flipping burgerboy that I am backing up my contentions with REAL first hand experiences, in the field, on VARMINTS! Something you are sorrowfully lacking in!
The 17 HMR is more accurate than any 22 Magnum I have owned, seen or used! This inherent accuracy of the 17 HMR makes it easier to kill Varmints! The 17 HMR shoots flatter than any 22 Magnum and that makes it easier to kill Varmints! The 17 HMR shoots straighter in the wind than any 22 Magnum and that makes it easier to kill Varmints! The excellent, top quality, exceptionally frangible bullets used by manufacturers in the 17 HMR makes it easier to kill Varmints with than a 22 Magnum!
And last but not least the obvious lack of experience and understanding you show - of the amazing lethality of higher speed smaller bullets like those in the 17 HMR - with their greatly increased increased rotational speed and energy more than makes up for any edge the 22 Magnum has in ft.lbs of energy (at some ranges) might have! Yes flipping doo-doo there are many factors possessed by bullets that determine its lethality - not just ft./lbs. of energy! Again you show your lack of experience and knowledge by trying to avoid this fact regarding lethality of bullets!
Yeah for those with real experience in the field (not just behind some counter!) the 17 HMR simply outperforms the 22 Magnum!
Go get some in field experience and come back and let us "real 17 HMR users" know how the 17 HMR does in the field!
Til then flippinburgermaster you are just "showing your ass"!
You are also just "showing your ass" in another regard backflipper, that I will now illustrate - every gunstore I have visited in the last several months agrees that the 17 HMR is FAR outselling the 22 Magnum in both firearm and ammunition sales! For you to contend otherwise is simply a distortion you try to pass off for what ever reason you have chosen to try!
Get a life flipster! A real one preferrably!
Long live the 17 HMR!
The 22 Magnum has seen better days!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintRube, as per your request, in my replies I will attempt to edit out as much of the garbage as I can from your posts and insert BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, which serves the same purpose anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
FlippinBurgers: You show your true lack of knowledge and first hand experience with your continued blather regarding the 17 HMW (LOL at your repeated use of the incorrect nomenclature for the the 17HMR, in your lack of facts, latest posting)! I have grown to expect that from you by now though.

If you read my posts, you would know that 17HMW stands for 17Hornady Magnum Waste-of-time, which it is. It can also be 17 Hornady Magnum Waste-of-MONEY which it definitely is.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
You, are not the only gunstore worker that espouses incorrect information - and you won't be the last! That is also a sorry situation, just like your lack of experience in the field with the 17 HMR and trying to persuade anyone DESPITE your lack of experience!
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH Back to your obvious lack of experience and your trying to impart gross misconceptions regarding the 17 HMR's lack of killing power!
The 17 HMR kills quicker and at greater distances than the 22 Magnum for many reasons - I will list just a few of them here and now -and remember flipping burgerboy that I am backing up my contentions with REAL first hand experiences, in the field, on VARMINTS! Something you are sorrowfully lacking in!

Hmmmm? So now you know how much field experience I have? Really? Do you also feel Layne Simpson doesn’t have enough field experience to know what he’s talking about? Sorry, but I don’t think so. I have shot the 17 HMW enough to know that I’m still not impressed. It might be the ticket for squirrels, and like-sized animals, but so what. It’s too expensive to shoot squirrels.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH The excellent, top quality, exceptionally frangible bullets used by manufacturers in the 17 HMR makes it easier to kill Varmints with than a 22 Magnum!

VarmintRube, you obviously haven’t used any premium ammo in your 22MAG or you wouldn’t be saying this.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
And last but not least the obvious lack of experience and understanding you show - of the amazing lethality of higher speed smaller bullets like those in the 17 HMR - with their greatly increased increased rotational speed and energy more than makes up for any edge the 22 Magnum has in ft.lbs of energy (at some ranges) might have!
Yes flipping doo-doo there are many factors possessed by bullets that determine its lethality - not just ft./lbs. of energy! Again you show your lack of experience and knowledge by trying to avoid this fact regarding lethality of bullets!

Really? You can now ascertain (“determineâ€) how much knowledge I have or don’t have?
You and Dionne “Psychic Friend’s Network†Warwick must be tight!

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
Yeah for those with real experience in the field (not just behind some counter!) the 17 HMR simply outperforms the 22 Magnum!
Go get some in field experience and come back and let us "real 17 HMR users" know how the 17 HMR does in the field!
Til then flippinburgermaster you are just "showing your ass"!

I guess it’s better to “show my ass†than to be an ass.
Greater velocity and rotational speed does not always make up for lack of ft-lbs of energy, which the 22MAG has at ALL distances over the 17HMW.
If greater velocity and rotational energy made up for lack of ft-lbs of energy, all large and dangerous game would be hunted with 220 Swifts.
Yet again VarmintRube, “assuming†the amount of field experience I have just makes an ass out of YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
You are also just "showing your ass" in another regard backflipper, that I will now illustrate - every gunstore I have visited in the last several months agrees that the 17 HMR is FAR outselling the 22 Magnum in both firearm and ammunition sales! For you to contend otherwise is simply a distortion you try to pass off for what ever reason you have chosen to try!
Get a life flipster! A real one preferrably!
Long live the 17 HMR!
The 22 Magnum has seen better days!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Yet, again, it’s better to “show my ass†than to be an ass, VarmintRube. Did you READ THE ARTICLE? Probably not, as you apparently haven’t read mine or anybody else’s previous posts. The 17HMW continues to sell well, however the 22MAG is making a surprising comeback, as some people learn the 17HMW’s limitations.

Case in point: I recently sold a Marlin 983 to an older gentleman (74 years old, been hunting and varminting longer than I’ve been alive). He owns several 17HMW’s. He sold his 22Mag when he got the 17’s, as he too wrongly concluded the 22 had seen better days. However he was, as your are now, wrong.

I stand behind the 22MAG as a superior overall cartridge than the 17HMW, especially for larger-sized game, but neither is powerful enough for coyote-sized game.
Or, better yet, let me quote a self-proclaimed 17HMW expert:

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
…I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer – way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes.

Yet again, VarmintRube, I believe you said it all...

Flea Pee: You just do not know when to quit - nor right from wrong! The 17 HMR has been outselling the 22 Magnum by leaps and bounds SINCE the initial inception of the 17 HMR and continues to do so "strongly" to this day! To even intimate otherwise is bordering on "LYING" - do that at your own risk if you must!
Its easy and very evident just exactly how little experience and common sense you have just by reading your misleading and incorrect blather! The more you blather the more evident your lack of experience and common sense is!
Thats your problem not anyone elses!
Dionne Warwick has nothing to do with common sense or my opinion of your mistakes! I am glad though that you have now learned the proper nomenclature of the "17 HMR" cartridge! You are making progress albeit VERY slow and VERY little progress!
I will repeat for you Flea Pee and any other 17 HMR doubting Thomas's out there! I have personally killed a large Boar Badger with my 17 HMR with ONE SHOT and did so at a lasered 173 yards! This shot took the large Boar Badger in the throat and killed it instantly! I have shot Badgers before with many many different cartridges including other rimfire cartridges (22 LR and 22 Magnums) and this kill at this distance with the 17 HMR was noteworthy and VERY impressive to me - someone who has actually HUNTED Badgers with it! Have you Hunted Badgers with the 17 HMR Flea Pee? Ohh I forgot YOU have not Hunted ANYTHING with the 17 HMR!!! I wonder if Layne Simpson has Hunted Badger with the 17 HMR? I wonder if you have killed large Porcupines with your 17 HMR's? I have! Ohhh I forgot you have not Hunted ANYTHING with any of the 17 HMR's you do not own!
I have Hunted Coyotes with the 17 HMR and have killed two of them with one shot apiece with my 17 HMR! How many Coyotes have you and Layne Simpson shot with your 17 HMR's? Oh I forgot Flea Pee you DO NOT OWN AND HAVE NEVER Hunted anything with a 17 HMR?
I have killed numerous High Mountain Rock Chucks with my 17 HMR and killed them all cleanly and and quickly with well placed explosive projectiles from my 17 HMR Rifle! How many High Mountain Rock Chucks have you killed with your 17 HMR's Flea Loopy? Oh thats right you have not Hunted ANYTHING with any of the 17 HMR's you do not own!!!
Again its easy to point out the ridiculousness of your unwarranted and unfounded diatribes against the superior 17 HMR and I enjoy doing it!
Please provide more of your uninformed erroneous blather for me to denounce!
Yeah EVERYONE in the world that has been and is still buying the superior 17 HMR arms and ammunition is making a BIG mistake! At least according to someone that has never owned one or Hunted with one!
LOL!
Lots of experience and common sense in your contentions then - right Flea Pie?
Your misinformation campaign is falling on a lot of deaf ears out here Flea Pee! Please keep it up though as I enjoy destroying your lame attempts at besmirching a fine, accurate, flat shooting, wonderful wind bucking lethal little rimfire round (the 17 HMR)!
And by the way this is how I was considering the 17 HMR as being marginal in regards to killing Coyotes (which I have done and you have not, remember) comparing it to other more powerful calibers - centerfires! Your attempts at distortion are powerfully immature and ineffective!
I fully intend to use the 17 HMR on Coyotes again this fall and fully intend to kill more Coyotes with it by the way! Based on my experiences so far (and remember I actually HAVE EXPERIENCE in this regard) I will leave my 22 Magnum at home (just like hoardes of other Varmint Hunters are doing)! Why use the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum, you ask, Flea Pooh? Because I have used them both EXTENSIVELY and the 17 HMR is more accurate, more lethal, flatter shooting, bucks the wind much better and I enjoy all those attributes and superior qualities of the 17 HMR!
Sorry Flea Pee you are simply "showing your ass" again!

Long live the superior 17 HMR!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

This girl, Varmint Girl, obviously buys more guns than she can shoot. Just another member of the "gun of the week" club, those folks who've got more money than good sense. Can't tell you how many guns she's always braggin on buying. Probably don't want to ever see her shoe closet! That'd be scary!

Whenever I hear someone braggin like this gal brags, I know 50% of it is all bull doo doo and the other 50% is pure lie! If she thought she could get away with it she'd be telling everyone where to go to hunt elephant in "SW Montana."

BTW Honey, Ford sells a lot of Ford Focuses, but that doesn't make the Focus a Porsche, a BMW or even a Honda Accord.

R Waitergirl: I see you also have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING of substance to add to Flea Pees blather except MORE blather.
You can't even do a HALF ASSED job of attacking me!
But thats beside the point somewhat isn't it? You attack me - completely without any facts in regard to the 17 HMR (by the way thats the topic of this thread or do you even care?) or even the now loosing favor 22 Magnum!
You are in way over the top of your short head so spew your blather - get it out of your infantile system, and when you can come up with some real arguments pro OR con regarding the 17 HMR post them.
Til then quit making a fool of yourself with unfounded personal attacks!
I have shot more Varmints so far in my life than you and Flipped Pee Pot both together EVER will!
Get out and enjoy the Varminting sport and when you see someone posting something you have experience in and disagree with said persons posting cite your evidence and experience. Til then try and reign in your immature impulses.
Unlike some folks I actually Varmint Hunt year round and do so energetically and with eagerness and enthusiasm. I enjoy sharing my experiences and while doing so I sometimes choose to simply not put up with misconstruances like Yuppy Fluppy tries to pass off. Again if you have evidence or experience contrary to mine post them - I will consider them and if need be correct them or corroborate them. Somehow I think you simply don't have it in you to make a mature and fact based argument! And that is your shortcoming small man!
I have killed Varmints on 3 of the last four days by the way and I only skipped yesterday because there were two newborn fawn Antelope in the field I chose to Hunt late yesterday afternoon! I did not want to disturb these newborns and I did not have time to get to other fields I have permission to Hunt in. How many days in a row have you Hunted Varmints this week Watergirl?
VarmintSon #1 who is home from college has killed three kinds of Varmints this week himself (Skunk, Jack Rabbit and Ground Squirrels) and he shows one whole hell of a lot more maturity with folks he disagrees with than you do r. potty water! He oviously had better "raisin" than you did! And that my fine feathered potty mouth friend is a slap directly at your parents and the poor job they have done so far "raisin" you!
I suggest you go back and ask for more direction from them.
Your now posting simply shows your lack of common sense, common decency, your immaturity and mean spiritedness is only compounded by your lack of any facts or substantive argument in this matter - and that speaks volumes about you "our water pot"! And what it says is all bad!
Grow up my lad - is about the best advice I can offer you at this time!
Your blather at the end of your posting comparing Fords and Hondas is kind of weird isn't it?
I see no correlation here to Varmint Hunting what so ever.
Maybe you can bring yourself back to reality long enough to realize exactly where you are and what this discussion is about?
Varminting with 17 HMR's and 22 Magnums!
Are you somehow in your own wierd way (without actually having the courage to say so!) saying that the 17 HMR or the 22 magnum is a Ford and some other cartridge is a Porsche? If so this makes about as much sense as your other blather and the blather of your sole mate Flipfloop!
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

R. Walter, I believe you are right!

quote:

Originally posted by R. Walter:
This girl, Varmint Girl, obviously buys more guns than she can shoot. Just another member of the "gun of the week" club, those folks who've got more money than good sense. Can't tell you how many guns she's always braggin on buying. Probably don't want to ever see her shoe closet! That'd be scary!

I first thought she sounded like my kids, but you are right, she SOUNDS LIKE MY WIFE!
Always right until SHE proves herself wrong. VarmintGirl is irresponsible to purposely hunt any animal with a cartridge that by her own words is inadequate for the species. Even coyotes deserve better.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
…I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer – way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes.

Maybe “she†is MTF (or FTM). That might explain her irrational behavior. Maybe menopausal, or pre-menstrual…

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH…Dionne Warwick has nothing to do with common sense or my opinion of your mistakes!

Yep, she’s female (or MTF/FTM)…

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
I am glad though that you have now learned the proper nomenclature of the "17 HMR" cartridge! You are making progress albeit VERY slow and VERY little progress!

Oh, you mean 17HMW? So now you agree with me? MTF/FTM?

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
Ohhh I forgot you have not Hunted ANYTHING with any of the 17 HMR's you do not own! I have Hunted Coyotes with the 17 HMR and have killed two of them with one shot apiece with my 17 HMR!

That's a ringing endorsement!

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
Oh I forgot Flea Pee you DO NOT OWN AND HAVE NEVER Hunted anything with a 17 HMR?

Oh, I get it. She’s jealous! I get to try before I buy, or as in the case of the 17HMW, try before I waste my money. Just one of the privileges of working where I work. I also have friends (remember those?) that own a bazillion guns.

I don’t have to own a gun to shoot or hunt with one. I choose not to hunt with something I consider too expensive for the usage.
Why would I want to go out and buy something I can try first?
Only an idiot would do that…

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
How many Coyotes have you and Layne Simpson shot with your 17 HMR's?

Did you read the article? As the article states, Layne considers the 17HMW inadequate for coyotes. Why would he hunt coyotes with one? That sounds like female “logic.â€

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH
Yeah EVERYONE in the world that has been and is still buying the superior 17 HMR arms and ammunition is making a BIG mistake! At least according to someone that has never owned one or Hunted with one! LOL! Your misinformation campaign is falling on a lot of deaf ears out here Flea Pee! Please

You are listening, right? Unlike some people, I don’t have to own junk to know junk. How many guns have you sold in your life? How many people have you had come back because they bought the weapon their friends told them to buy and they weren’t happy with it?
None? That’s what I thought…

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
BLAH, BLAH, BLAHAnd by the way this is how I was considering the 17 HMR as being marginal in regards to killing Coyotes (which I have done and you have not, remember) comparing it to other more powerful calibers - centerfires! Your attempts at distortion are powerfully immature and ineffective!
I fully intend to use the 17 HMR on Coyotes again this fall and fully intend to kill more Coyotes with it by the way!

The original question was a direct question on the performance of the 17HMW for coyotes.
In case you forgot:

quote:

Originally posted by GonHuntin:
VG
After having used the 17HMR extensively..... would you say it is marginal or entirely adequate for coyotes???

I have killed a bunch of coyotes and have a fair idea what it takes to anchor one.....after reveiwing the performance of the 17 HMR...and reading accounts from several other folks who have used it on coyotes....I personally don't consider it, or any other rimfire, enough gun to reliably and cleanly kill coyotes consistently .....but I'd appreciate hearing your opinion......

Here’s you reply:

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
GonHuntin: I have taken exactly 2 shots at Coyotes with my 17 HMR's - and I killed two Coyotes.
Not much to base my opinion on there in actual useage on Coyotes – but I have heard of a local Hunter here in SW Montana that has killed 23 Coyotes with 25 shots. He and I - I am sure were not taking long shots at Coyotes. Mine were both right at 100 yard shots and one was a head shot the other a heart/lung shot.
I would not hesitate to shoot a Coyote at 100 yards or under with my 17 HMR Rifle.
There is a legion of better all around Coyote cartridges out there - but again - I would not hesitate to shoot a Coyote at 100 yards or under with my 17 HMR Rifle.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH
GonHuntin to specifically answer your "marginal or entirely adequate" question about the 17 HMR on Coyotes I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer - way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes. That impression by me would not, though, keep from shooting some more of them from out around 100 yards and closer in.
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

No mention of “centerfire.†Hmmmm?
You have HEARD of somebody, somewhere that supposedly did something…
How impressive! Now you are using hearsay and “urban legend†to validate your answers?
You probably say the guy on “Oprah.â€

First you give an “expert†opinion that the 17HMW is not adequate for coyotes and then say you would not hesitate to use one and plan on hunting coyotes with one?
Bi-polar? MTF/FTM? Fool?

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGirl:
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

R. Walter, you are right. VarmintRube must be a girl. Last time I “held into the wind†I was 5 years old.
I peed on my leg.

quote:

R. Walter, you are right. VarmintRube must be a girl. Last time I “held into the wind†I was 5 years old.
I peed on my leg.

Well, I'd rather not let this thread get to be too sexist. Sure, VG obviously stands for "Varmint Girl" or it could be "Varmint Goof" or "Varmint Gay." Girl, goofball, or gay doesn't really even matter in my mind.

Whatever she is, VI might be the better nomenclature... Village Idiot.

Looking back through some of the old threads on this board, it's amazing how many comments from other members about VG's propensity to be self-righteous, arrogant and argumentative.

So which do you think it is? "Varmint Girl", "Varmint Goof" or "Varmint Gay." Or is it really "Village Idiot" and she's not getting her initials right?

She once said her hunting buddies had so many years more experience than I possibly could have, their experience made them automatically right and I had to be wrong.
There’s no fool like an old fool…

Varmint Girl, Very Gay, Village Idiot or whatever, it really doesn’t matter.
Stupid is as stupid does…

R. Walter, I’ll let you decide.

Flipped lid pee pot and R. Wallflower: You are both simply berift of any factual arguments!
Fleapoop is now reduced to telling outright lies and hoping someone - anyone will believe them!
Yesterday I had occassion to visit four sportshops in Butte, Montana! In all four of them (in front of my Big Game and Varmint Hunting buddy as a witness) I asked every counter person there in each store (Bob Wards - a chain, Fran Johnsons - a top end one of a kind sport shop, at Bugs & Bullets a smaller but still quality shop and the two older guys at the Wal-Mart) how the sales of 22 Magnum arms and ammunition have fared since the introduction of the 17 HMR some years ago! Answers were UNANIMOUS! All people engaged in actually selling the arms and ammo in question agreed the 22 Magnum IS and HAS been DEAD - especially when compared to the still strong and robust sales of 17 HMR arms and ammo! One person stated sales of 20 to 1 - in favor of the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum!!! Another stated way more than 10 to 1 in favor of the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum!!! Now I relay these observations as they are recent and they are witnessed - and they jibe perfectly with what I have been asking in Gunshops from Texas to Arizona to Nebraska to Kansas to Oregon to Idaho to Washington and all around the state of Montana for the last year!!!
I will just come out and say it Flea pee - I consider your statements to the contrary of mine regarding 22 Magnum sales to be outright lies! Shame on you!
And, Our watergirl, you just keep making your parents proud! LOL!
Can't you even come up with any kind of an argument? ANYTHING?
I have killed Coyotes cleanly with my 17 HMR and I know several others that have also! Layne Simpson or not - if I and many others can do it then any patient and dedicated Coyote Hunter can do so also! Efficiently and humanely!
I still feel that anyone that is dumb enough and inexperienced enough to call the 17 HMR "junk" like fleapowder has is "showing their ass"!
The 17 HMR is the finest, flattest shooting, best wind bucking, most lethal and most accurate rimfire round out there! If there was something better - I would be using it!
To bad fleeped out! Your inexperience and arrogance have got you in this fix! I suggest a re-examination of your lack of real "firsthand" experience and your motivations! In other words COME ON - get into the 21st century and remove your head from your digestive tract outlet!
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Flyspeck: I almost forgot to mention that I used both my two 17 HMR arms to take about 40 Ground Squirrels this afternoon! I killed several with my S&W Model 647 revolver and about 35 more with my Ruger 77/17V!!!
Fran Johnsons shop in Butte, Montana by the way has 17 HMR ammo (three types) on the shelf for $7.99 a box (non sale price!)! I usually get this wonderful ammo for under $7.00 ($6.50 and less sometimes!) by wheeling and dealing a bit - and I have about a full years supply of this wonderful ammo on my shelves at all times! Buying it right makes me even happier with the wonderful little 17 HMR round!
Everytime I plucked a Varmint out there at and near 200 yards with my 77/17V I called out your name "that ones for you flea pee"! Or "oh theres another one flypie couldn't have hit with his 22 Magnum"! Or "flippedonphonics that flipped Varmints was for you"! And on and on like that! I hope you don't mind?
The 22 Magnum simply does not hold a candle to what the 17 HMR can AND DOES DO!
I just wanted to mention that for your sake flea dip!
Herald the new Rimfire King! The 17 HMR!
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Yep, R. Walter, VG'S A GIRL!

Now she's calling out my name with every hit.

While flattering, it's actually creepy...

Poor lady.

VarmintGirl, I buy Winchester Supreme 33g ammo for $28.00 a brick, $5.60 a box. Still cheaper, better AND more powerful than your "pellet gun." Sorry.

I bet your parents are proud...

What a surreal thread this one is! JMEO.

Doctors and Lawyers may offer expert opinion, they're still assholes. Also JMO.

I think the HMR is consistantly more accurate than the .22 Mag, based on personal experience with 2 of each. I also think it's of small note given the effective range of either. JMO again.

I think probably the .204 is a better cartridge. TA DAH! JMO.

Y'all have fun.

Digital Dan, YOU ARE CORRECT! The .204 is a real cartridge. The effective range of these cartridges (17HMW, 22MAG) is the limiting factor here. READ: power.

I always enjoy the guys that say "I once shot a (insert favorite dangerous animal here) at 200 yards with a (insert your favorite wimpy cartridge here) and it killed it dead."

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should...

Plus, it's fun to keep poking the animal (AKA VarmintGirl) with a stick.

Drippy: Are you that bereft of any semblence of real Hunting experiences afield???
Using your infantile train of thought then everyone should use 458 Winchester Magnums on Ground Squirrels, Coyotes and Prairie Dogs!
Yeah, the 458 is more powerful than a 17 HMR! So what! According to my Remington 2,005 catalog in a comparison of the 22 Magnum and the 17 HMR's Energy at 100 yards the 17 HMR has 136 ft/lbs and the 22 Magnum has 164 ft/lbs. Now I will gladly give up that amount of ft/lbs of Energy (and by the way the 17 HMR is gaining on the 22 Magnum Energy wise the further downrange the bullets go!) for the much flatter shooting, much more accurate, much better wind bucking, much faster rotational speed, increased lethality and the much better accuracy of the 17 HMR's! If you had any experience to speak of in the Hunting fields you would be able to deduce this simple fact for yourself!
You, dreepee, are simply to easy to knock out of the park!
Come up with some more lies and blather so I can correct them in public. I am beginning to enjoy humbling you!
I (and legions of other Varminters!) choose to use the faster, flatter shooting, better wind bucking, more accurate and more lethal 17 HMR than any 22 Magnum!
The 17 HMR is a better performer afield, and at the range, than the 22 Magnum! And again legions of happy 17 HMR users who continue to snub the lingering near death 22 Magnum, are Exhibit #1 in that matter!
Again your lack of experience and your insistence in granting amazing powers to the 22 Magnum is simply incorrect and somewhat sad in a way! One of the sad things is your head is so far up your ass that there may be no hope for you every venturing out into the light of the 21st Century?
No big loss there though!
By the way be sure and read my in depth posting here on my Varmint Safari from today!
Its got lots of REAL, FIRSTHAND and COMPLIMENTARY things to say about the 17 HMR!
Long live the Rimfire King - the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintRube, you have me mixed up with "Old Elk Hunter." He uses a .458 for squirrels. I don't recall mentioning a .458 Win Mag as a varmint cartridge...

You might want to lay of the Premarin for awhile. The hot flashes are cooking what's left of your brain (and that obviously ain't much)...

By the way, where's those statistics you promised me MONTHS ago?
(I'm talking about the ones that DON'T exist)

Flipped dippy: You are the one that just proffessed "power" is everything in your posting! Not Old Elk Hunter!
Is power everything when it comes to accuracy, improved ballistics (flatter trajectory makes for more first shot hits - or did you know that - as well as better wind bucking ability which also contributes to more first shot hits - or did you know that already?). It seems you completely discount all the clear cut facts that proves the 17 HMR is superior to the 22 Magnum overall. I wonder why?
I have simply misplaced or thrown away my 2,004 Remington catalog and my memory will have to suffice as further proof of my contention that the 17 HMR shoots significantly flatter than the 22 magnum out at 200 yard ranges. Or do you have the rampaging audacity to deny that fact also? He-he somehow I think you are stupid enough to try and pull that out of your ass also! He-he!
I prove this superiority of the 17 HMR to myself about 4 times a week here lately, flypie, on my various in the field real life Varmint Safaris!
If you had ANY real experience afield and Hunting with the 17 HMR you would not have to have that fact TOLD to you! You could see for yourself the clear and unmistakable superiority ballistically of the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum!
Keep showin your ass bud! You make my days anymore!
Long live the new Rimfire King - the 17 HMR!
Any putz that would refer to the 17 HMR as a "joke" of a cartridge (like flypaper does!) needs to get some real world - real range - real Hunting experience in with it! And do so quickly before even more folks find out how ridiculous flipflop sounds!
Oh I almost forgot you have never owned or ever Hunted with a real live 17 HMR have you dripping tool???!!!
fleapottie, you just keep burping up this imagined blather for me to hit home runs against and I will just KEEP trouncing you with your own tripe!
And again I must remind you of your errors (lies?) regarding the popularity of the 17 HMR vs. the 22 Magnum.
I want to give you one more chance to retract that batch of armchair expert blather!
I contend and I am supported by Gunshop owners from Enumclaw, Washington to Phoenix, Arizona and from Kalispell, Montana to Kansas City, Kansas that the 17 HMR is outselling the 222 Magnum by as much as 20 to 1 these days!!!
It seems your unfounded, unwarranted and misdirected campaign against the 17 HMR is falling on deaf ears! Lots of VERY DEAF ears! Everyone I talk to at Gunshops, Gunshows, Rifle ranges, in the Varmint fields, and at sportsmans shows - in my travels everywhere around the west agrees that the 17 HMR is MUCH preffered now over the 22 Magnum for accuracy, better performance ballistically, lethality wise and for the increased fun factor the 17 HMR has over the 22 Magnum!
Is it your lonely state of existence that causes you, cow flopping sound, to be a CONTRARY?
Again long live the new Rimfire King - the 17 HMR!
Yeah baby!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Opinion:
view; estimation; belief; judgment; attitude; outlook.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
By the way be sure and read my in depth posting here on my Varmint Safari from today!
Its got lots of REAL, FIRSTHAND and COMPLIMENTARY things to say about the 17 HMR!

Many of Hitler’s henchmen had “lots of REAL, FIRSTHAND and COMPLIMENTARY things to say about†their leader.

Does that mean we should:
A) follow Hitler’s legacy. After all, many of these guys were “experts†on Hitler, were they not?
-or-
B)Consider the source of these REAL, FIRSTHAND and COMPLIMENTARY things?

I vote for “B.â€

DigitalDan is right.

quote:

Originally posted by DigitalDan:
Doctors and Lawyers may offer expert opinion, they're still assholes.
Also JMO.

True, until you need one to testify on your behalf.

Facts are facts. Opinions are just opinions. EXPERT opinions are just some “educated†person’s idea of what they believe is “factual.â€
Experts often disagree.

VarmintRube, have a great week!

Cryngfloppingdrippingpie: I see you have absolutely no rebuttal to any of my facts, in field experiences or opinions! I thought so.
If I were you I would quit while you are only mildly humiliated!
No retraction I see from you as yet on the distortions you have attempted to pass off regarding the popularity and sales of the 17 HMR vs. the 22 Magnum!
Whats the matter flyingflip? Have you run out of misconceptions to try and pass off?
Trajectory tables don't lie and wind deflection tables don't lie and real world first hand ACTUALLY been there done that hands on experience like mine sure trumps your blather and tripe and sour grapes all to hell! He-he!
So now you think I am Hitler re-incarnate - you simpleton!!!
You have proven yourself COMPLETELY BERIFT of any practicality, common sense and any objectivity or meaningful experience with regard to the 17 HMR!
I ask again how can you possibly expect anyone to believe anything you blather when you have never owned one of the fine arms - nor ever Hunted with one of these fine Hunting arms in this caliber?
Your blather is not even worth a grain of salt - and you keep compounding that worthlessness with your immature line of thought and postings.
Hitler may just very well have been impressed with this fine new Rimfire King - the 17 HMR but that would be no excuse for your distortions and immaturity!
Long live the new Rimfire King - the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

There was an article in The Varmint Hunter Magazine awihle back about this fella that wanted to mix up a speed goat hunt with some 'yote calling...think he was using a .45-120 Sharps or something similar. Anyway, he bagged a really nice goat, and a membership to the 1000 yard club for the yote. Not bad for a vernier sight. I guess that makes the .458 a varmint cartridge if you wanna.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintRube:
If I were you I would quit while you are only mildly humiliated!
So now you think I am Hitler re-incarnate - you simpleton!!!

If you were me, you would be smarter than you are. So apparently you are not me.
On the other hand, if you were me, then I would be you (technically) and that would make me (you) too dumb to know the difference.

You humiliate me? VarmintRube you give yourself too much credit.

A Hitler re-incarnate? (big word for a small minded coot)
VarmintRube, again you’re giving yourself WAY TOO much credit.

quote:

B)Consider the source of these REAL, FIRSTHAND and COMPLIMENTARY things?

“Consider the source†was referring to you.
You would know that if you could, or bothered to read what I posted.

Hitler may have been one of the biggest whackos in history, but at least Hitler knew enough to end his own life when he was defeated! If only we could be so lucky.

Have you read the article in June 2005, Shooting Times yet?
The article that Layne Simpson wrote about the 17HMW and the 22MAG?
The one that also says that 22Mag sales are up.

I haven’t yet said anything about you maligning Layne Simpson’s article and opinion.
However, I could have expected as much from a two dimensional person such as yourself. After all, Layne’s findings do not correspond with your opinion.

I have a couple questions for you:
1)VarmintRube, how long you’ve been writing professionally?
2)How many articles have you written that were published AND you received payment for? Oh, none?

That’s what I thought.

Where’s the statistics you promised me months ago?
(the ones that don’t exist?)

Have fun with your over-priced pea shooter...

Varmint Girl, you're actually pretty incredible with your nonsense. Does anybody in your life know what you spew in Internet Forums?

Oh, that's presuming there is anybody in your life. I'll bet it's just you making love to your keyboard in your little fantasy hunting world. You and your gay friends at most.

Sorry to any others who are tuning in here to catch this little tift. As I've done in other chats hereabouts, I'm outa here. Very Gay always gets the last word no matter what, That's just the way (s)he is.

Lady, you're up; you get to sign me off.

p.s. please do NOT send me any more of those naked pictures of those young boys.

our waterboy: You have never been in this discusssion at all! You are just an immature arrogant little hit and run - contrary!
Your lack of "raisin" only provided you with enough ability to prove that your immaturity and lack of cognitive ability are your strong suits!
Shame that!
Just like all the cowardly name callers who have no substantive arguments - when you are put down with facts and confronted with reality you whine and snivel and take your ball and go home! Keep up the good work boy! I expected no less from you the instant you made your first irrelevent and immature posting here.
You won't be missed.
Long live the 17 HMR!

drippinglip: You can bet your last biscuit I am having fun with my 17 HMR and your inept and empty attempts at besmirching it have no effect on my habits or anyone elses what so ever!
Layne Simpson is as wrong headed as you are if in fact he thinks the 22 magnum sales are up from what they were before the 17 HMR was introduced! That makes two of you that are full of hot air and blather!
The 17 HMR is outselling 22 Magnums by around 20 to 1 these days!!!
Accept it or not - you can try to "lie" to yourself if you must but the 17 HMR has far surpassed the 22 magnum in accuracy, lethality, flatter trajectory, better wind bucking ability and don't forget, plipdroop, the amazing fun factor that the people that ACTUALLY DO OWN and ACTUALLY DO USE and ACTUALLY DO HUNT WITH 17 HMR's are enjoying! And everyone knows these things but you fluppy!
Your fascination with Hitler and our waterbuckets fascination with gays and nude pictures of boys leads me to believe you two cretins are actually one and the same unfortunate person!
Now, you, in your lame and ineffective way are trying to besmirch me by bemoaning the fact that only published people can make correct contentions! You again are showing your ass and lack of real world experiences! If you have not come across "published" words that are erroneous then you, my fine feathered dupe, are even stupider than I originally estimated!
Keep your head up in your digestive tract outlet for the rest of this century also then there pliffingly! Its probably the safest place for it!
The 17 HMR is now the King of Rimfires and I predict it will remain so for some time!
Still contend liffy, that the 22 Magnum outsells the 17 HMR? Say so if you do or produce your proof that my contentions are incorrect. Contentions that I base accordingly on my multi-state, multi region first hand surveys!
Keep it coming failedpeepee! I am beginning now to relish batting you around! Don't you have any facts on your side what so ever?
Answer: No! You don't!
LOL!
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy