Late yesterday I made the 110 mile trip to Bozeman, Montana to retrieve the second replacement revolver that the nice folks at S&W have sent me!
If you might recall in December of 2,003 I bought a new S&W Model 647 in caliber 17 HMR. Unbeknownst to me this pistol had not been rifled at the factory. It had a bad case of blowback and tumbling bullets. The nice S&W folks replaced it but the replacement pistol only shot 6 to 8 inch groups with a (scope!) at 25 yards. They asked me to return that one. I did and now the second replacement pistol is here and I spent the morning cleaning it and mounting my scope on it. Its to windy to shoot today but as soon as the wind dies down I will try the newest 647 out at my range!
Its great that the pistol got here now as I saw many Ground Squirrels in the pastures and fields I travelled past on my way to Bozeman yesterday! I also saw lots of Elk and Deer feeding in the foothills!
The folks at S&W could not have been more understanding and helpful in the past 15 months! They simply would not allow me to be unhappy with their product. Like I relayed to them in my letter of explanation I have been buying and using S&W pistols for 37 years now and never had "problem one" with any of them!
I guess it was just my turn to get a lemon or two!
Come to think of it this is the first firearm I have ever returned to any manufacturer! And thats saying a lot as I am sure I have bought more than 200 Rifles and pistols, new from stores, and probably double that on the used market! And yes I am pretty sure (memory fade?) that this is the first firearm (first TWO actually) of my own that I have had to return.
Well wish me luck with this one as I am watching out the window as I am reloading and at the first sign of respit in the wind and I will be banging away with this new little Gopher Getter!
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy:
I wish you the best of luck with your S&W. I have found problems to be a more common as of late. I don't want to rain on your parade but I have found the 17 rimfire to be just awful on prairie dogs. When several of my buddies got excited I told them that it would be far less potent than a 22 mag. but they had to spend the money to find out for themselves. The round can be amazingly accurate in a good rifle but killing power is pathetic. A good 22 mag is better at any range. In a pistol it will be even less of a varminter. I hate to tell of this but it is true. That 17 M2 will be even worse junk for varminting. Not just my opinion.

Tanker,

As someone who has used rimfires for 30 years on varmints and used the 17HMR on Prairie dogs for the last two..

Respectfully sir,your last post is a bunch of crap.

Surely,17g 17HMR vamx bullet hitting a Prairie dog at 1,400 FPS at 200 yards simply BOUNCES OFF???

YET, folks in England KILL 10 lb wild hares out to 40 meters with pellet rifles having HALF that energy AT THE MUZZLE?

No bullet kills well if it's not placed properly,even one from the "mighty" .22mag..

I suggest your friends LEARN HOW TO SHOOT and you refrain from discussing topics you OBVIOUSLY no nothing about.

Tanker: Thanks for your submission. Indeed I plan on using this revolving pistol in 17 HMR only for Ground Squirrels and some Grouse Hunting. The Ground Squirrels in many of the places I Hunt them here in Montana have a habit of sneaking up on my set-ups and I want something to shoot the close ones with! I mean the ones that are closer than 35 yrads or so!
I know the limitations of the 17 HMR as I have used mine for more than two years now. I tend to give it a little (lot?) more credit than you and your sources do though. I personally have killed two Coyotes with one shot apiece from my Ruger 77 V/T heavy barreled Rifle! Both were killed right at 100 yard ranges. One was head shot the other lung shot! I have also killed Badgers with mine including one huge Boar Badger that was killed with one well placed shot to the throat (head on shot) at a lasered 173 yards! I have also killed Porcupines, Skunks, feral cats, Rock Chucks, Prairie Dogs, Ground Squirrels, several Wild Turkeys, Jack Rabbits, Snowshoe Hares, Cotton-tailed Rabbits, tree Squirrels, Grouse, several types of flying Varmints (that made the mistake of landing when I had my 17 HMR handy!) and some other Varmints that I have probably forgotten! I do want to take some Fox with my 17 HMR but the mange came through my area and killed them all off as of a couple years back! Yes the 17 HMR has limitations but in my experience I tend to quit shooting out at 225 yards on Ground Squirrels! My 22 Magnums were useless at that range with their rainbow trajectories.
I have killed Prairie Dogs (of which you referred to) out to a lasered 202 yards. I witnessed my good friend Jack head shot one with his 17 HMR at 240 yards - one shot kill there on that Prairie Dog!
My Ruger 77 V/T is simply the most accurate rimfire I have ever owned! And I have owned a lot of them! Including other Rugers, Marlins, Savages, Anschutz's, Winchesters, Remingtons, Kimbers, NEF's and some others I am sure I have long since forgotten about. The 17 HMR shoots much flatter, faster and has way less wind drift (out to 250 yards or so!) than any other rimfire including 22 Magnums - and I have been paying attention here to this specifically - the 17 HMR's seem to be significantly more accurate than the other offerings in rimfire these days (in comparable firearms)!
As for the 22 Magnum vs. 17 HMR in the "potency" department (as you describe what I call lethality?) I wish your contention were true! It simply is not. I have spent a lot of money on 22 Magnums and never had one even approach the accuracy and superior trajectory of the 17 HMR. The 17 HMR is so superior in the lethality department that I can only surmise you have not tried a 17 HMR in the field as yet?
I have used the 22 Magnums for decades and it took just one year of serious and all around Varminting to convince me the 22 Magnum does not even come close to the lethality that is the norm with the 17 HMR!
Yes, yes I know the 22 magnum has more ft/lbs. of energy at some ranges and with some loads BUT ft./lbs. of energy is not the only factor in lethality on game. The MUCH flatter trajectory and the MUCH better wind bucking capabilities of the 17 HMR, AND its increased accuracy over the 22 Magnum make the 17 HMR easier to hit the vital areas of the intended game or Varmints with.
I hope you can get some first hand, varied experience on game and Varmints with the 17 HMR (maybe you have already?) but I think once you have given it a fair shake in the field you might change your mind about it!
I will let you know how this 10" barreled 17 HMR does at the range and out in the Ground Squirrel fields ASAP!
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Guys:
I have no interest in creating an emotional thread. I only stated my experience and that of others I know. I would hope that most would not confuse the capabity to kill with that of killing cleanly. A head or vital shot with most bullets will often result in death. That is not the issue. Varminting by it's nature often includes those shots at times outside of our abilities to place bullets in exact spots.
I do not consider the 22 mag to be "mighty", only better when used in direct comparison to the 17. I did not say it shot flatter or as accurately, just that it killed better. That is on shots less well placed than vital hits.
If the 17 works for you and you like it then great. Your results must be different than mine. That's fine with me.
Assumptions or attacks concerning experience or ability seem difficult at best when you know nothing of the writer.
I would hope that a discussion relating personal experience that may not coincide with yours could be had without emotional or condescending response.
Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Tanker: Thanks for your submission. Indeed I plan on using this revolving pistol in 17 HMR only for Ground Squirrels and some Grouse Hunting. The Ground Squirrels in many of the places I Hunt them here in Montana have a habit of sneaking up on my set-ups and I want something to shoot the close ones with! I mean the ones that are closer than 35 yrads or so!
I know the limitations of the 17 HMR as I have used mine for more than two years now. I tend to give it a little (lot?) more credit than you and your sources do though. I personally have killed two Coyotes with one shot apiece from my Ruger 77 V/T heavy barreled Rifle! Both were killed right at 100 yard ranges. One was head shot the other lung shot! I have also killed Badgers with mine including one huge Boar Badger that was killed with one well placed shot to the throat (head on shot) at a lasered 173 yards! I have also killed Porcupines, Skunks, feral cats, Rock Chucks, Prairie Dogs, Ground Squirrels, several Wild Turkeys, Jack Rabbits, Snowshoe Hares, Cotton-tailed Rabbits, tree Squirrels, Grouse, several types of flying Varmints (that made the mistake of landing when I had my 17 HMR handy!) and some other Varmints that I have probably forgotten! I do want to take some Fox with my 17 HMR but the mange came through my area and killed them all off as of a couple years back! Yes the 17 HMR has limitations but in my experience I tend to quit shooting out at 225 yards on Ground Squirrels!

My 22 Magnums were useless at that range with their rainbow trajectories.

I have killed Prairie Dogs (of which you referred to) out to a lasered 202 yards. I witnessed my good friend Jack head shot one with his 17 HMR at 240 yards - one shot kill there on that Prairie Dog!
My Ruger 77 V/T is simply the most accurate rimfire I have ever owned! And I have owned a lot of them! Including other Rugers, Marlins, Savages, Anschutz's, Winchesters, Remingtons, Kimbers, NEF's and some others I am sure I have long since forgotten about.

The 17 HMR shoots much flatter, faster and has way less wind drift (out to 250 yards or so!) than any other rimfire including 22 Magnums

- and I have been paying attention here to this specifically - the 17 HMR's seem to be significantly more accurate than the other offerings in rimfire these days (in comparable firearms)!
As for the 22 Magnum vs. 17 HMR in the "potency" department (as you describe what I call lethality?) I wish your contention were true! It simply is not. I have spent a lot of money on 22 Magnums and never had one even approach the accuracy and superior trajectory of the 17 HMR. The 17 HMR is so superior in the lethality department that I can only surmise you have not tried a 17 HMR in the field as yet?

I have used the 22 Magnums for decades and it took just one year of serious and all around Varminting to convince me the 22 Magnum does not even come close to the lethality that is the norm with the 17 HMR!
Yes, yes I know the 22 magnum has more ft/lbs. of energy at some ranges and with some loads BUT ft./lbs. of energy is not the only factor in lethality on game.

The MUCH flatter trajectory and the MUCH better wind bucking capabilities of the 17 HMR, AND its increased accuracy over the 22 Magnum make the 17 HMR easier to hit the vital areas of the intended game or Varmints with.

I hope you can get some first hand, varied experience on game and Varmints with the 17 HMR (maybe you have already?) but I think once you have given it a fair shake in the field you might change your mind about it!
I will let you know how this 10" barreled 17 HMR does at the range and out in the Ground Squirrel fields ASAP!
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Mostly BS there.

The 22Mag has more ft/lbs from the muzzle to about 250 yards, than the 17HMR.
Much past the effective range most reasonable people would abdicate using these limited cartridges at. Hornady does not even list figures past 200 yards for the 17HMR on their website.

There is a fellow in town that has shot at least one coyote with his 17HMR at a lasered 225 yards. A head shot yes, does he normally do this, no. Even he said the round is a 150 yard round because of the wind deflection problem.

He also has been shooting a 22mag for YEARS. Remember, an object in motion tends to stay in motion... The heavier the object, the more it tends to stay in motion.

To combat wind DEFLECTION (not drift) speed helps, but again, the heavier the object, the less outside forces act upon it or deflect it.

The BC of the bullet also helps increase trajectory and fight deflection. Most .22 caliber bullets have at least as good a BC as the 17's, .046" larger but TWICE as heavy.

As for the 22mags "rainbow trajectory" this is not really true, at least within the practical ranges of both cartridges, 200 yards.

Here is some stats from Remington's website and it is not going to show very well. I realize Remington makes limited ammo for both, but the source of the information is the same, and hopefully somewhat accurate.

• Velocity (fps) Energy (ft-lb) Trajectory (in)†
  
• Muz. 50 100 Muz. 50 100 50 100 150
  
• PR17HM1 2550 2212 1901 245 185 136 0.1 0.0 -2.6
  
• PR17LR 2100 1801 1532 166 122 88 0.7 0.0 -4.4
  
• PR22M1 2000 1730 1495 293 219 164 0.6 0.0 -4.5

(the data is not showing up correctly, sorry)

1.9 inches difference at 150 yards is not a "rainbow." With software I came up with about 3.5" difference at 200 yards. Again not a "rainbow."

My old 22mag (Marlin 25MC) will shoot 5 shots in 3/4"@100 yards with CCI +V ammo all day long. I have shot a couple 17's and they shoot very well, but not well enough to sell my 22mag.

I was out with two friends that each have a couple 17hmr's and one has a 17mach2. We were out plinking, getting ready for killin' pests. We hung clays out to 75 yards or so. Fun range, nothing too serious, enough to shake the cobwebs out.

Funny things happened.
When we shot clays with a 17HMR, it left a tiny little hole right in the middle.
Looked like a BB hole.
When I shot them with my 22mag, it left tiny little pieces right on the ground.
Hmmmm?


The 17's, I'm not impressed unless it's a centerfire.
Then I would opt for a .204 Ruger.

Flippy: I simply tend to hold very little credence in the one non-ambiguous statement you make in your posting. The statement you made where your Marlin shoots .750" five shot groups at 100 yards ALL DAY LONG! I have owned a plethora of 22 Magnums over the past 4 decades and only one ever shot a 5 shot group at 100 yards of less than 1.00"! And that group was in the high .900" range as I recall! I have a myriad of friends and shooting chums that have also owned 22 Magnums of all types and I have never seen one that will perform consistently as you describe!
The several 17 HMR Rifles that I am familiar with on a first hand basis (including mine!) all shoot consistently better than any 22 Magnum I have ever seen! Inherent accuracy clearly goes to the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum!
Lethality, for your information flippy, is not solely based on ft.lbs. of energy! I hate to tell you that. Apparently you are unaware or inexperienced in that area. There are many other factors that enter into a particular bullets and a particular cartridges lethality factor. The 17 HMR is head and shoulders above the 22 Magnum in lethality! I base that on 40 years of using the 22 Magnum and the past 2 1/2 years using the 17 HMR on all manner of game and Varmints!
I will specifically refute the contention (the one that I do clearly understand) from your posting to this extent - most of your derision of the 17 HMR is non-specific AND you seem to think I was espousing the virtues of the 17 M2 - I do not even own one of these calibered firearms! I do not make any contentions regarding it what so ever and you should not infer I have!
I specifically state, and you have not refuted that the 17 HMR is more lethal on game and Varmints than the 22 Magnum! I have "compared" them and I declare the 17 HMR is far superior to the 22 Magnum in this regard!
I base this unbiased observation like I said on 2 1/2 years of killing most all the small game and Varmint creatures that inhabit the plains and mountains here in the west!
I listed the game and Varmints already and will not bore anyone by reciting them. Check my previous post and ponder my extensive experiences before you give much credence to your unscientific and impractical "holes in clay pigeons" (with a 17 M2?) observation!
And yes flippy instead of BS my observation regarding the 22 Magnums trajectory being like a rainbow compared to the 17 HMR is factual! In that the 17 HMR does in fact shoot 2" flatter at 150 yards than the 22 Magnum (in its hottest loadings by the way!). At 200 yards the 17 HMR is (as I recall from literature I have seen) 11" flatter shooting than most 22 Magnum loadings - yeah flippy THAT IS A RAINBOW! Both the 2" difference at 150 yards and 11" at 200 yards (or even your figures) DO constitute rainbow like features to the 22 Magnum trajectory! You are stating a fact flippy, that proves MY point! Thank you!
I HAVE extensively shot both game/Varmints and targets at moderate ranges (out to somewhat past 200 yards) and I AM IMPRESSED with the 17 HMR! Much more so than with the 22 Magnums I have owned and used!
Apparently you have not owned or used a 17 HMR (extensively) at the range or in the field on game or Varmints - and I do not know what you base you ambiguous and meritless critiques on?
Please try and reclarify your critiques so I can understand them and then debunk them!
Again I fail to see how OR why someone that has never owned and earnestly used a particular cartridge can try to critique it!
Flippy, no one is asking you to sell your 22 Magnum! Keep it! But if you want a better rimfire for accuracy, lethality on game and Varmints and for much flatter trajectory and much better wind bucking capability then buy and extensively use a 17 HMR! I am sure you will THEN rescind your baseless critiques once you have accomplished that!

Tanker: I will deal with you now. I could care less if you are worried about emotions or your definition of "killing and killing cleanly" - what ever that is! The 17 HMR will kill more consistently and quickly on game and Varmints than a 22 Magnum! Again I base my that on the proof I have seen over 4 decades of use of 22 Magnums of all types and 2 1/2 years of use of the 17 HMR! Please refer to my list of game and varmints killed with my 17 HMR!
The speed of the 17 HMR bullets and the accuracy of the cartridge combined with the explosive and frangible 17 gr. ballistic tip style bullets in the cartridges I use in my 17 HMR simply kills all manner of Varmints and game quicker (and with noticeably less movement after being hit) than in any 22 Magnum I have used. I know that is a long sentence - I am not concerned about grammar! I am concerned you have based an erroneous opinion on little or no experience and direct comparisons!
I am not attacking you Tanker - I am simply stating you are wrong! That does not constitute an attack.
I have nothing to gain from espousing the experiences and lessons I have learned over the decades in this comparison. I just know that after shooting in excess of two thousand Varmints and game animals with the 17 HMR in the last 2 1/2 years and many thousand Varmints over the last 4 decades with the 22 Magnum the 17 HMR is head and shoulders above the 22 Magnum lethality wise! Tanker, if you somehow are in fear of emotion or condescesion thats your problem - deal with it, or not! I don't care. I will not let you try to denigrate my argument because you perceive it to be emotional! My argument is emotionless and it is based on facts learned by me over decades! Not with what someone else has done or what someone thinks or what the guys down at the Wal-mart said! I proffer my experiences and conclusionary facts based on them to you Tanker without emotion (this time!).
I do not want to, in any way, try to infringe on your ability to refute or contradict so please if you have extensive experience killing game and Varmints with the 17 HMR and also with the 22 Magnum and your conclusions differ from mine I would love to consider your (I don't want to use the word "arguments" here but feel I should!) arguments to my position.

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: More later I am being interupted!

1)11" differece at 200 yards? SHOW ME.

2)I NEVER said that ft/lbs ALONE killed, because that is not true.

3)I have no intention of selling my 22mag for ANY 17 rimfire.

4)I never accused you of owning a 17mach2, that's just what my friends brought.

5)When I want to kill "varmints" I use my 6mm or my .223. The 22mag is for "vermin."

6)MY Marlin 25M will shoot sub 3/4" groups with CCI +V ammo, other ammo it will not.

7)My critiques of the 17hmr are not baseless, however they ARE shared by many.

As I DID say:

The 17's, I'm not impressed unless it's a centerfire.
Then I would opt for a .204 Ruger.
The .204 is what ALL 17 caliber cartridges want to be when they grow up!

I just recently got a CZ 17 Varminter and I guide Prairie Dog hunts up on my ranch in Mid Central Nebraska....now, I usually use a 22-250 or my precision AR, however I found that the 17 does a great job between the 75-125 yard range. When I take out fathers and sons and the kid is new to the sport, I let him shoot the 17 HMR and it seems to go over REALLY WELL. Now when the wind is up in Nebraska, which it often is, I tend to leave the CZ at home, the 17 grain pill does tend to move a lil to much for my liking when the wind is up, however overall I would agree with "Sharpsman" in that the one gents buddies need to learn to shoot, generally trigger control helps a lot of the time....so does breathing and well, having the scope mounted properly.

Oh I also forgot, this fall I hunted Turkeys on the Lambs Head ranch in Albany, Texas (im a college student in the fall and spring, guide in the winter break and summer break) anyways, I took a HUGE RIO GRANDE with a 9.5 inch break (im talking a real paint brush here...) anyways the bird was shot with none other then my CZ 17 HMR Varminter, now It was the first turkey I have ever killed with a rifle, and its legal to do in Tejas, so I thought I would try it for fun with the 17 HMR for a challange, the bird was shot square in the chest, he litterlaly flapped his wing twice and fell over dead. So, as for energy and penetration, I am no pro, but I recovered the bullet (i shoot the Hornady Vmax 17 gr round) and it looked like a finger clipping, however the WOUND CHANNEL WAS amazing for the remains of the bullet. So all I am saying is this, I have faith the round is both a clean killer with proper shot placement ( as with any round) and that it is very very accurate and Prairie dog worthy, I wont shoot it past 125 yards but usually thats cuz Im wind concious and I hate adjustments...

It's great that you have had such satisfying results with the .17. Simply put, I have not. Though my experience would seem adequate by some and overwhelming by others, I am not concerned enough to be so passionate over the topic.
It just isn't that important. I am convinced that the results I obtained (without the necessity of a huge body count) and the results my friends found (through a larger count since they were on trips and sadly stuck with what they brought) are enough for me to feel comfortable in my opinion. The comments questioning the skill of the operators involved is unwarranted as all are excellent field marksmen with considerable successful competition, varminting, and big game hunting experience. Not to stir the pot, but I haven't found any .17 center fire that wasn't lame compared to a similar size .22. Get whipped up over that if you want. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Tanker:
It's great that you have had such satisfying results with the .17. Simply put, I have not. Though my experience would seem adequate by some and overwhelming by others, I am not concerned enough to be so passionate over the topic.
It just isn't that important. I am convinced that the results I obtained (without the necessity of a huge body count) and the results my friends found (through a larger count since they were on trips and sadly stuck with what they brought) are enough for me to feel comfortable in my opinion. The comments questioning the skill of the operators involved is unwarranted as all are excellent field marksmen with considerable successful competition, varminting, and big game hunting experience. Not to stir the pot, but I haven't found any .17 center fire that wasn't lame compared to a similar size .22. Get whipped up over that if you want. Thanks.

I agree about the 17's. I would say a 17 REM would be the only one I would get jazzed about, but I would rather have a .204 RUGER.

The specs SD, BC, trajectory, etc, are better.
Hornady really did a great developement job on this one. Kicks butt on ALL the 17's...

It's a keeper! It's a keeper!
I just returned from a long mornings outing with the new S&W Model 647 (all stainless 6 shot revolver in caliber 17 HMR with the 10" barrel).
The morning started at one of my ranges (I have two I can choose from) that is 18 miles south of my home. I first sighted in two Rifles for a friend of mine and his fiance. The good news was they were in the modest 25/06 caliber (I don't care much for sighting in other peoples magnums). I am a bit recoil "conscious" so to speak and much prefer to bench shoot my recoil-less and recoil mild Varmint Rifles as compared to the big magnums many of the locals use for Elk and Bear. Even they don't care much to sight those boomers in themselves! Some of the locals (and some of my friends!) found out I am willing to trade range favors for Hunting location tips and I suffer through the indignity of mashing myself with heavy recoiling magnums to earn favor with the busy locals!
Anyway once I was done sighting in the two 25/06 Rifles (and now I have to clean them!) I got out my newest new pride and joy the S&W Model 647! For its initial testing! Things looked to be going very well right from the start as the Redfield scope could not be boresighted by me as I have no 17 caliber spud for my bore sighter! So then firing blindly - so to speak - I was on paper right off the bat at 25 yards! I fired two shots and made an adjustment and the next four shots there at 25 yards went into a .405" cluster! WOW was I excited! I made another slight adjustment to the Redfield scope and I then fired 3 six shot groups there at 25 yards! The three groups measured .610", .688" and .745"! To say I was thrilled would be understating things!
This pistol literally shoots 10 times as accurately as my last S&W Model 647! If you recall that pistol was firing groups measuring from 6 to 8 inches there at 25 yards! Oh I was dancing in the shooting shack all morning!
I only tested the Remington ammunition and was thankful that the pistol likes the Remington stuff. This simplifies things 17 HMR wise as my Ruger 77/VT Rifle also prefers the Remington ammo.
Then it was time to fulfill the purpose for which I initially purchased a 647 for some 15 months ago! Bag a close in Varmint!
In the back of my mind when I was loading up the VarmintMobile early this morning I chose the further range because I KNEW this third time charming S&W was just gonna shoot! And I wanted to be in better Ground Squirrel country when I got it sighted in!
Off I truck to the nearest Varmint field I had permission on. It was not long til I had scurrying Gophers all around me! The VarmintDog "Henry" had begged his way along today and he was doing donuts in the front seat of the VarmintMobile as he was seeing the darting Gophers himself! I had to use glaring stares and hand signals to calm my hound to try and keep him still as I was setting up the sandbags on the hood of the VarmintMobile! He finally calmed down enough for me to keep a steady sight picture!
Now call me superstitious but I have this mental "thing" - in my mind lurks this "idea" or superstition that if I manage to harvest a Varmint with the first shot opportunity from any new to me Varmint rig - then I will have good shooting with that Varminter from then on!
Where in the world did that crazy notion come from - I do not know! Anyway I wanted a still and downwind (the wind had come up since leaving the range!) Gopher for my first shot. Sure shot in other words!
It wasn't long til a medium size Gopher provided the opportunity and if my crazy "notion" or superstition has any validity I will have good shooting with this new Varmint pistol!
I shot 2 cylinders of ammo at the scurrying rodents and I think I got 8 or 9 of the darting grass eaters in the bag! All hits were kills and some were kind of spectacular! The 17 HMR tends to lift and flip these Varmints into the air on occassion!
I forgot to mention that in addition to my extreme delight with the accuracy of the S&W Model 647 that the single action trigger is just nothing short of superb! Quite nearly perfect for my uses! Light and creepless and quite consistent to my feel anyway. I may test it with my trigger gauge later today when I clean it. I will report back on the trigger pull.
Gophers, Grouse (they are legal to take with a pistol in Montana) and other Varmints had better be wary and be warned! Give me time to get set up on my sandbags with this rig and you will be in a world of hurt!
Long live the 17 HMR!
More later - cleaning to do!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Flippy: If I may retort?

Your point #1 - I am temporarily unable to find the literature that I cited even though it stands out clearly in my mind. I think it was from the Remington folks in their catalog of 2,004 or 2,003 that showed both a ballistics table and a chart illustrating the flatter by 11" trajectory of the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum out at 200 yards. I will continue to look for this and will test my 22 Magnum (Marlin bolt action by the way!!!) and test my 17 HMR there at 200 yards to compare them in real life so to speak. Expect this information in a couple of weeks.
Even using your declared trajectory the 17 HMR shoots significantly flatter at 200 yards than the 22 Magnum!
This same chart that I recall also stated that the wind drift of the 17 HMR was 9" less at 200 yards than the 22 Magnum!
Lets see - lots less drop and lots less wind drift for the 17 HMR makes for more accurate shooting in the filed (and at the range!) thus more clean kills on game and Varmints!

#2 - I am glad you agree with me on this point! And I hope you soon discover the error of your ways in denouncing the lethality of the 17 HMR! The 17 HMR clearly reigns in this regard over the 22 Magnum!

#3 - I declared specifically to you already, I could care less if you want to keep the 22 Magnum! My motto is the more the merrier in that regard. I do know several Gunshop owners and even more workers therein and they all declare that the 17 HMR has simply nearly killed off completely the sales of 22 Magnum arms and ammunition! I do know that second hand sales of 22 Magnum arms on the Gunshow circuit is definitely dying off!
Maybe some other folks out there agree with me???

#4 - The 17 M2 should not have entered into our comparisonistic discussion in the first place! I forgive you this minor transgression (LOL).

#5 - I use the 17 HMR in many different and varied conditions and situations! I Hunt a lot of places where centerfires are not usable! They spook cattle and are expensive and irrigation equipment is often in the area and in the far background of where I shoot. Thus the 17 HMR fills in along with my other rimfires. But the 17 HMR gives me an added full 100+ yards range over my 22 LR's and an added 50 to 60 yards over my 22 Magnum. And on the days when the wind is plowing right along the 17 HMR gets used even more! The 17 HMR is simply far superior to any other rimfire and especially so on windy days!
I use my centerfires for longer ranges and when conditions dictate. They are expensive though to shoot but very rewarding when used.

#6 - You are sticking with that story and I still am amazed that such a Rifle exists! It is directly contradictory to the many experiences I have had over the decades! Don't sell that Rifle!!!

#7 - Your critiques of the 17 HMR are shared by NO ONE I know that owns and uses one! And I know a lot of folks that are VERY happy 17 HMR users!
I personally have let now 8 or 9 different Ground Squirrel Hunters use my 17 HMR in the field and 5 of them have since gone out and purchased a Rifle in 17 HMR!
A friend of mine who lives in Conneticut but Varmint Hunts in Montana and Wyoming was so impressed with the 17 HMR that he bought a Volqhuartsen semi-auto all stainless heavy barrelled Varminter in this caliber ($900.00 and some dollars for the Rifle alone!), mounted a Leupold 8.5x25x50mm LR scope on it and literally dices up the Gophers out at 200 yards with impressive regularity! If I had unlimited funds I would duplictae this Varminter to a "tee" and would not even consider chambering it in 22 Magnum.
The 17 HMR is simply an all around better cartridge for Varminting, small game and at the range!

On second thought I suggest you do sell your ultra accurate 22 Magnum and to show you I am a good sport I offer you $165.00 for it (less your scope of course!).

Thanks for clearly posting your views! I appreciate them!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Why don't you two get together for a prairie dog shoot and compare results side by side.
I would suggest swapping rifles several times during the shoot to minimize shooter variables.

I have found that the orginal Hornady ammo in 17HMR does very well. I have also found that there is a great deal of difference amoung the various brands of .22 Mag ammo.

I also shoot a lot of .221 Fireball, 22 Hornet, and 223 Remington. While I applaud the increased quality of .22 mag ammo, I think the 17 HMR was very good to start with.

I know you two will banter back and forth with various data. Instead go out and shoot some critters and show us the photos!

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Flippy: If I may retort?

Your point #1 - I am temporarily unable to find the literature that I cited even though it stands out clearly in my mind. I think it was from the Remington folks in their catalog of 2,004 or 2,003 that showed both a ballistics table and a chart illustrating the flatter by 11" trajectory of the 17 HMR over the 22 Magnum out at 200 yards. I will continue to look for this and will test my 22 Magnum (Marlin bolt action by the way!!!) and test my 17 HMR there at 200 yards to compare them in real life so to speak. Expect this information in a couple of weeks.
Even using your declared trajectory the 17 HMR shoots significantly flatter at 200 yards than the 22 Magnum!
This same chart that I recall also stated that the wind drift of the 17 HMR was 9" less at 200 yards than the 22 Magnum!
Lets see - lots less drop and lots less wind drift for the 17 HMR makes for more accurate shooting in the filed (and at the range!) thus more clean kills on game and Varmints!

#2 - I am glad you agree with me on this point! And I hope you soon discover the error of your ways in denouncing the lethality of the 17 HMR! The 17 HMR clearly reigns in this regard over the 22 Magnum!

#3 - I declared specifically to you already, I could care less if you want to keep the 22 Magnum! My motto is the more the merrier in that regard. I do know several Gunshop owners and even more workers therein and they all declare that the 17 HMR has simply nearly killed off completely the sales of 22 Magnum arms and ammunition! I do know that second hand sales of 22 Magnum arms on the Gunshow circuit is definitely dying off!
Maybe some other folks out there agree with me???

#4 - The 17 M2 should not have entered into our comparisonistic discussion in the first place! I forgive you this minor transgression (LOL).

#5 - I use the 17 HMR in many different and varied conditions and situations! I Hunt a lot of places where centerfires are not usable! They spook cattle and are expensive and irrigation equipment is often in the area and in the far background of where I shoot. Thus the 17 HMR fills in along with my other rimfires. But the 17 HMR gives me an added full 100+ yards range over my 22 LR's and an added 50 to 60 yards over my 22 Magnum. And on the days when the wind is plowing right along the 17 HMR gets used even more! The 17 HMR is simply far superior to any other rimfire and especially so on windy days!
I use my centerfires for longer ranges and when conditions dictate. They are expensive though to shoot but very rewarding when used.

#6 - You are sticking with that story and I still am amazed that such a Rifle exists! It is directly contradictory to the many experiences I have had over the decades! Don't sell that Rifle!!!

#7 - Your critiques of the 17 HMR are shared by NO ONE I know that owns and uses one! And I know a lot of folks that are VERY happy 17 HMR users!
I personally have let now 8 or 9 different Ground Squirrel Hunters use my 17 HMR in the field and 5 of them have since gone out and purchased a Rifle in 17 HMR!
A friend of mine who lives in Conneticut but Varmint Hunts in Montana and Wyoming was so impressed with the 17 HMR that he bought a Volqhuartsen semi-auto all stainless heavy barrelled Varminter in this caliber ($900.00 and some dollars for the Rifle alone!), mounted a Leupold 8.5x25x50mm LR scope on it and literally dices up the Gophers out at 200 yards with impressive regularity! If I had unlimited funds I would duplictae this Varminter to a "tee" and would not even consider chambering it in 22 Magnum.
The 17 HMR is simply an all around better cartridge for Varminting, small game and at the range!

On second thought I suggest you do sell your ultra accurate 22 Magnum and to show you I am a good sport I offer you $165.00 for it (less your scope of course!).

Thanks for clearly posting your views! I appreciate them!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

1)Keep looking...

2)I agree with PHYSICS on this point. Energy alone doesn’t kill anything, otherwise EVERY shot from my .338 would kill something with ALL that power. Have to start aiming for the feet...

3)Because it’s the new kid on the block, just like the WSSM’s… I also work at a gun shop and know many other people who work at other shops and shoot. People are still looking for 22mags, and it really hasn’t slowed down as much as you would think.

4)Comparisonistic discussion? Whatever that means...The M2 was never in the comparison, my friend brought it and the tiny little holes were from the 17HMR, IF YOU READ THE POST. Next time I won’t confuse you with extra information, sorry…

5) a)“and an added 50 to 60 yards over my 22 Magnum.†So how far is your 17HMR good for now? 250 yards?
b)“I use my centerfires for longer ranges and when conditions dictate. They are expensive though to shoot but very rewarding when used.†I can reload my 6mm for about $0.19 a shot or about $9.50 for 50 rounds, if I buy powder and bullets in bulk it is cheaper to shoot. The 6mm has EVERYTHING over ANY 17 caliber cartridge. As they say in motor racing, "There is no replacement for displacement."

6)It does exist. I won’t sell it to you or anybody else. I will send you upon request, a VERIFIED target with groups on it from our certified range master.

7) At least one person ON THIS POST, Tanker, shares my views on the "power" of the 17HMR, and another agrees about the wind bucking “abilityâ€:

quote:

by Cold
“Now when the wind is up in Nebraska, which it often is, I tend to leave the CZ at home, the 17 grain pill does tend to move a lil to much for my liking when the wind is up.â€

You probably need to read the others peoples posts before posting more about this, or not…whatever…

quote:

Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
Why don't you two get together for a prairie dog shoot and compare results side by side.
I would suggest swapping rifles several times during the shoot to minimize shooter variables.

I have found that the orginal Hornady ammo in 17HMR does very well. I have also found that there is a great deal of difference amoung the various brands of .22 Mag ammo.

I also shoot a lot of .221 Fireball, 22 Hornet, and 223 Remington. While I applaud the increased quality of .22 mag ammo, I think the 17 HMR was very good to start with.

I know you two will banter back and forth with various data. Instead go out and shoot some critters and show us the photos!

Good idea.
You are absolutely correct about the difference in 22mag ammo. Price doesn't make a bit of difference, either. Some of the "cheap" ammo shoots well, and some of the pricey stuff shoots terrible, in my rifle.

I have found no rhyme or reason for the difference. The same brand, but different bullet makes a big difference, sometimes. I can only tell people to try out as many different brands as they can.

Yet another reason to shoot centerfires!

Flippy: I got to kill more Varmints today with my 17 HMR's! I used the S&W pistol first for the closer ones and then put the whack on them real well "way out there" with my Ruger 77 V/T!!! And it was windy here in the Rocky Mountains today! During the time I was shooting the wind blew at from 8 MPH to 18 MPH (according to my wind gauge).
Yes flippy I have killed many Varmints at a full 200 yards distance from my set ups with my 17 HMR Rifle. These are both laser ranged (Leica) and estimated incidents!
And I have killed a fair number past 200 yards! The consistency of hits with the 17 HMR at these ranges is simply head and shoulders above what one can do with a 22 Magnum!
Your attempt at rebutting my rebuttal to your point #7 has, alas, been poorly written and not thought through very well! I would have to guess to try and destroy your ambiguous attempt at rebuttal! Well, I am guessing away and I think I will destroy your latest bit of blather!
I guess you are trying to say - the 22 Magnum bucks the wind better than a 17 HMR? If you are trying to say that then YOU ARE A SIMPLY, A SIMPLETON! Any half way experienced and knowledgeable Rifleman knows that bullet wind drift is a function of a projectiles speed and the time the wind has to work on the projectile! The faster a projectile travels the less time the wind has to drift it! The 17 HMR round is MUCH faster than a 22 Magnum - thus it is affected by the wind MUCH less than a 22 Magnum!!! This functionality of the 17 HMR being superior in the wind drift arena continues until way way out past any range I am willing to shoot at game or at a Varmint (350 yards? - 400 Yards?)! This far distant range where the heavier 22 Magnum bullet begins to exceed the speed of the 17 HMR is far beyond what I am willing to try for game at and at whatever range that happens the bullet drop would be exceedingly excessive anyway with either cartridge!
So you and anyone else that contends differently than I have stated regarding the 17 HMR is in error! Indisputable error!
Again, I am guessing at your poorly written posting (point #7) but I think I am getting the drift of what you were attempting to say (write?). Looking at it another way a 17 gr. bullet and a 34 gr. bullet travelling the same speed over the same distance will be affected by the wind - THE SAME AMOUNT! If the 17 gr. bullet is moving faster than the 34 gr. bullet it WILL be affected by the wind LESS! And vice versa! The faster a bullet travels through the air the less it is drifted by the wind (less time for the wind to drift the projectile!). In correlativity then, the slower a bullet passes through the air the MORE it is drifted by the wind (more time for the wind to drift the projectile!).
I hope you and your legions of 17 HMR naysayers can understand this simple fact. If you can't then maybe you should just stick with the good old 22 Magnum and "pretend" you are shooting the best rimfire out there - even though you are not!
Faster is flatter and faster is straighter! Its really kind of simple!
I will attempt in this additional manner to bring you back to reality regarding ballistics!
Both in trajectory over distance and trajectory in wind drift.
If you drop a 17 gr. 17 HMR projectile out of your hand at the same instant you drop a 34 gr. 22 Magnum projectile from your hand which one hits the ground first?
The correct answer flippy is - they both hit the ground at the same time! So when you fire a 17 HMR at significantly faster speed than what a 22 Magnum can travel then the 17 HMR projectile travels much farther for any comparable amount of drop! This applies again, like I said, til way way way out there where the heavier bullet eventually begins to travel faster than the lighter projectile! The same principle applies to wind drift and it does not matter how heavy the projectile!!! The faster projectile is acted upon by the wind for less time than a slower projectile over a particular linear distance!!! Thus less wind drift with the faster projectile! The weight of the projectile does not matter - it is its speed through the air that allows time (over a particular distance) for the wind to act upon the projectile!
I hope you can understand this crude attempt by me to explain ballistics to you. If you do not understand I can recommend some good books for you. Let me know.
You were the one by the way that was confused trying to interject (throw in abruptly!) the 17-HII you will have to remove its presence from our thread if you want to!
I will restate that the 17-HII has no place in this thread!
I still would LOVE to see in person a 22 Magnum made by Marlin or any other company that will constantly shoot "3/4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards all day long"!

I shoot all my 17's in the wind! And I do so very succesfully! I have several centerfires in 17 caliber and the the two aforementioned 17 rimfires. I love them!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Flippy: I am still looking for my 2,003 Remington catalog that showed the glaring disparity between the 17 HMR and the 22 Magnum trajectory wise at 200 yards. No luck yet but I KNOW I have it around here somewhere.
I did receive in the mail a Federal 2,005 ammunition catalog yesterday. This catalog does also shed light on the disparities between the two.
I will now quote from (and refer you to) the 2,005 Federal Premium Ammunition Guide. In particular refer to page 16 of the Varmint ammunition section of the catalog!
The trajectory information I will cite (as it is shown on that page) pertains to the Federal 17 HMR ammunition using the 17 gr. Hornady V-Max bullet and the only ammunition in 22 Magnum that Federal shows (reccommends?) here for Varminting. This 22 Magnum ammunition uses a 30 gr. Speer TNT Hollow-point.

Velocity 17 HMR = 2,550 FPS
Velocity 22 Mag = 2,200 FPS

Velocity at 150 yds 17 HMR = 1,620 FPS
Velocity at 150 yds 22 Mag = 1,160 FPS

Energy in ft/lbs 17 HMR muzzle = 245
Energy in ft/lbs 22 Mag muzzle = 320

Energy in ft/lbs 17 HMR 100 yds = 135
Energy in ft/lbs 22 Mag 100 yds = 135

Energy in ft/lbs 17 HMR 150 yds = 100
Energy in ft/lbs 22 Mag 150 yds = 90

Bullet drop 150 yds (zero at 50) 17 HMR = -5.0"
Bullet drop 150 yds (zero at 50) 22 Mag = -9.0"

Total wind drift 10 MPH wind 150 yds 17 HMR = 8.0"
Total wind drift 10 MPH wind 150 yds 22 Mag = 14.7"

So as you can see from the above factory figures the 17 HMR shows distinct and very appreciable superiority in every category pertaining to wind drift and flat shooting (trajectory).
And pay special attention to the energy comparisons and how the 17 HMR takes over in this category (at 101 yards and thereafter apparently!).
I have shot these 17 HMR Federal bullets recently and they were pleasingly accurate in my Ruger 77/17 V/T Rifle I have not used them as yet in my S&W pistol.
Since we spoke last I have had my 17 HMR's out on two short afternoon long Varmint Safaris!
Again I have as yet to find the 17 HMR cartridge lacking in any respect while Varminting (compared to any other rimfire cartridge!).
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Where are you getting your numbers?

According to Remington's website (and checked with my ballistic program) this is the info from Remington’s OWN website.

17HMR, 17g. bullet
22MAG, 33g. bullet (BOLD TYPE)
22MAG, 40g. bullet
† Sight Height 1.5" above axis of bore

Muzzle
Velocity
17HMR: 2550 FPS
22MAG: 2000 FPS
22MAG: 1910 FPS

FT/LBS.
17HMR: 245
22MAG: 293
22MAG: 324


50 yards.
Velocity
17HMR: 2212 FPS
22MAG: 1730 FPS
22MAG: 1610 FPS


FT/LBS.
17HMR: 185
22MAG: 219
22MAG: 230

Trajectory
17HMR: 0.1
22MAG: 0.6
22MAG: 0.9


100 yards
Velocity
17HMR: 1901 FPS
22MAG: 1495 FPS
22MAG: 1350 FPS

FT/LBS
17HMR: 136
22MAG: 164
22MAG: 162

Trajectory
17HMR: 0.0
22MAG: 0.0
22MAG: 0.0


150 yards.
Trajectory
17HMR: -.2.6
22MAG: -4.5
22MAG: -5.7

This is where their figures stop. Using ballistic software and these figures the 22MAG has more power to 1000 yards (the numbers stop for the 17HMR at 950 yards) than the 17HMR.

Again, using these numbers, the actual wind deflection is:

10 MPH (90 degree) wind.

17HMR
50 yards, 0.8"
100 yards, 3.3"
150 yards, 8.0"
200 yards, 15.4"

22MAG (33g bullet)
50 yards, 1.0"
100 yards, 4.3"
150 yards, 10.1"
200 yards, 18.8"

After shooting my 9MM carbine yesterday at ranges out to 130 yards (the limit of the range I was at) it makes BOTH of these look sick.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Flippy: I am still looking for my 2,003 Remington catalog that showed the glaring disparity between the 17 HMR and the 22 Magnum trajectory wise at 200 yards. No luck yet but I KNOW I have it around here somewhere.
I did receive in the mail a Federal 2,005 ammunition catalog yesterday. This catalog does also shed light on the disparities between the two.
I will now quote from (and refer you to) the 2,005 Federal Premium Ammunition Guide. In particular refer to page 16 of the Varmint ammunition section of the catalog!
The trajectory information I will cite (as it is shown on that page) pertains to the Federal 17 HMR ammunition using the 17 gr. Hornady V-Max bullet and the only ammunition in 22 Magnum that Federal shows (reccommends?) here for Varminting. This 22 Magnum ammunition uses a 30 gr. Speer TNT Hollow-point.

VarmintGuy

IT'S A CATALOG.

Federal makes four loads for the 22MAG and because they only make one PREMIUM load, it would have to be their only recommendation...
It is not the best choice IMO, UNLESS it shows better accuracy in your particular gun. I would have to look into this further, but on first look, this Federal load looks weak. Their 50g load has more power, but it would only be good out to about 150 yards (-6.6†& 146ft/lbs@150 yards).

Winchester has four offerings with one (Supreme S22WM) that is more powerful and hits about 6" higher than others loads I have tried at 100YDS. I need to chronograph this load in my gun to see how fast it is going. It showed OK accuracy. I have not tried the Federal load yet.

Flippt, flippy, flippy: Even the numbers you are citing proves my point! That point being the 17 HMR is a better round ballistically!
Or am I missing something in your posts?
YOUR numbers even show that the 17 HMR flies flatter and faster (thus less wind drift also!) than the 22 Magnum.
Thank you flippy, for posting the numbers you saw that prove MY point!
I told you where I got my numbers from, I will repeat it for you, the Federal Premium Ammunition Catalog edition 2,005! And I told you which page. Did you miss that?
Good luck with the Winchester ammo in your 22 Magnum but remember if you want a real fast and flat shooting rimfire Rifle with the best wind drift numbers then by all means get a 17 HMR (refer to your numbers for some of that proof!). And don't forget the 17 HMR is also more lethal on small game, Varmints and Turkeys than the 22 Magnum!
And of course due to its superior velocity over the 22 Magnum the 17 HMR has less wind drift!
I don't think you are gonna be shooting at AND hitting anything out at 1,000 yards with a 22 Magnum flippy, so control yourself if that urge arises!
To bad about the 150 yards limit there flippy with your 22 Magnum I regularly extinguish Varmints out near 200 yards and on several occassion a tad further than 200 yards with my 17 HMR!
Like I say when you feel the need for a better rimfire be sure and give the 17 HMR a fair try at the range and in the field!
I know you will be impressed!
Long live the 17 HMR!
If the rains hold off I may just whack away at a few Varmints with my 17 HMR's tomorrow! I will dedicate their demise to you flippy!
Isn't the 9mm a centerfire cartridge flippy?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

"The 17HMR just may render the 22Magnum ""obsolete""!!!" GHD

quote:

The 17HMR just may render the 22Magnum

It became obsolete when I started playing with reduced loads in a .222 years ago.

I'll buy a 17 HMR for night calling gray fox, seems like it would work well on them.

Here is your post from another forum:

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Cpayneusn: Nifty little rig you have there! I to have great admiration and trust in the 17 HMR cartridge as I have cleanly killed two Coyotes with mine as well as a host of other Varmints including Badgers, Rock Chucks, Porcupine, feral cats, Prairie Dogs, Jack Rabbits, Snowshoe Hares and a hoarde of Ground Squirrels among other Varmints! I also find the 17 HMR amazingly lethal on Wild Turkeys!
VarmintGuy

TWO coyotes doesn't mean much. I once saw a guy hit a coyote with a tractor, which "makes it a fine varmint round" by your experience.

I've killed most of the animals you list with a .22LR and some with a 5mm air rifle.

Give me a break...

Yes, the 9mm is a centerfire cartridge, last time I checked.

Flippy, flippy, flippy: You are getting weird on me now! You are decrying the 17 HMR by comparing it to some 9mm centerfire outfit!
What sense does that make???
If you want to use a tractor flippy you go ahead and see how many Coyotes you can kill with it in a year! I bet ya I can kill a lot more Coyotes with my 17 HMR than you can with a tractor!
See how silly you sound flippy!
I have only shot at two Coyotes flippy with my 17 HMR and killed them both with one shot apiece!
That, does, mean "much"!
Yeah I have killed a lot of Coyotes myself with a 22 Long Rifle the first being when I was about 10 years old on my grandparents homesteaded ranch in eastern Oregon!. I am near 58 years of age now and heres one lesson I have learned over the decades of rimfire Hunting and shooting! I readily prefer the 17 HMR over ANY rimfire I have ever shot! And I think I have shot them all! Again if I had a choice of rimfires for Coyote Hunting, specifically, I would much rather use a 17HMR than anything else!
Now not only should you be impressed with my killing those Coyotes but you ought to open your mind a bit and analyze my other kills with the 17 HMR! Porcupine (including a couple of very large ones)! Badger (including a large Boar Badger killed with one shot at a lasered 173 yards)! Rock Chucks (including large Chucks)! Yeah flippy I have ACTUALLY put the 17 HMR to use (a lot of use!) in the Varmint and small game and Turkey arenas and have come away VERY IMPRESSED with it!
You buy one and use it for a couple of years and catch up with the real field experience I have - then maybe someone will listen to your baseless and non specific critiques!
Til then I suggest you back off and try and save a bit of your rep before it is all gone!
Enough for flippy (for now!).

I couldn't resist! It seems the climate here in Montana has moved the warm weather up a full month all of a sudden! The Ground Squirrels think its early summer and they are chasing each other around and fighting for grass or territories, or mating rights or what ever they fight over!
Anyway I took the Ruger 77/17 VT out again today and put the whack on them big time! I could only do 50 rounds through it as I had put 50 rounds through it the other day on Ground Squirrels. I have been limiting my shooting strings with it to 100 shots then time to clean. But I did in a few close ones with the S&W 17 HMR also.
It got close to 60 degrees here today and they say on Monday it is supposed to snow then on Wednesday 60 degrees again! Weird weather to say the least.
Summers comin early this year I think!
The 17 HMR is the finest, most lethal, fastest shooting, wind buckingest rimfire known to date!
I left a perfectly good 22 Magnum at home AGAIN today (and most of last year as well!) to get out and have some real fun in the Varmint fields thanks to the wonderful 17 HMR!
I was really trying for a 200 yard shot but it was not to be today. I did get several around the 175 and 180 yard marks (lasered) though!
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
PS: Last night I got an E-mail from a lurker and he pointed out that this years (2,005) Smith & Wesson catalog no longer shows the Model 647 (Stainless 8 3/8" barreled revolver in 17 HMR)! I immediately went to my S&W catalog and I could not find this model listed either. I do not know if that was an oversight in the catlaog department or if they have quit making them? Any ideas out there!

Varmintguy,

SO aside from all of the .22mag VS 17HMR debate on this thread HOW DOES the 3rd S&W 617 shoot??

I guess you have it scoped? How will it shoot at 50 yards??

Does it spit lead/powder bad? I have heard you do NOT want to be standing beside someone shooting one of them as all kinds of stuff vents out of the Barrel cylinder gap.

Sharpsman: Pardon my slow reply I have been busy Hunting and entertaining out of town Varminters recently!
I enumerated the results of my first shooting session with the "newest" Model 647 in a post just above here (more in depth posting) but in brief for here I fired three full cylinder (six shot) groups at 25 yards that measured .610", .688" and .745"!
I also fired a four shot group that measured .405". Like I say I have been in a hurry as of late (busy) and have not fired any 50 yard targets with the new pistol as yet! I will say this that I have now killed Varmints out to 65 yards with the new rig though.
Yes it is scoped with an old (but new in the box) Redfield 4x stainless pistol scope I had laying around.
I really love the single action trigger on this rig. Its sublime!
I have shot the pistol now from many and varied holds and shooting positions and have noticed no blowback what so ever. I did make the mistake (a time or two) of using my off hand (ungloved) to "hold" the revolver in its rests. This results in much gas impact (instant mini-blast) to my skin. It startles me but does not inflict any perceptible permanent harm. I use a thin glove sometimes and wrap that off hand around the scope and feel the puff of gas but no startling effect or pain here what so ever! I have not noticed any "schrapnel" from this pistol at all.
I have only tried the Remington ammunition in the pistol so far and hope to try some Federal hollow-points soon as well as some other brands of ammo.
I have some other Varmint pistols but they are not revlovers (Remington XP-100 and T/C both in 223). So I am a relative newbie to pistol Varminting. I have never done much in the past with my revolvers and Varminting. Maybe I have killed 200 Rock Chucks, Prairie Dogs, Gophers, Coyotes, Skunks and Rattle Snakes total with my revolvers over the years. This 17 HMR is quite pleasing to me so far in the field on Varmints!
Let me know if I can answer anymore questions for you.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

What is it about you VG? Always arguing. The way you write you must sound like a 2 bit English Country dandy. I'm sorry. You're just annoying.

You always got to have the last word. I'm out!

VG ,

I guess the longer range results were what I was after.It should shoot into 2" at 100 yards with no problem after it is broken in ,given the right ammo and scope on it..

R. Walter: Pardon my slow reply I have been busy Varmint Hunting and reloading!
Unlike you R. Walter I have the desire and the intestinal fortitude to stand up and defend things I know to be correct and do it in an upfront and direct manner. At least I have the courage to "argue" (like you describe it) or (like I describe it) defend my contentions!
Seems to me like you lack the ability or the courage to defend yourself!
Take your ball and go home if you insist! I don't think you will be missed!
Just what is it that you disagree with me about - or do you have the courage to state it in a public forum?
Don't run off and hide man! Stand up and defend yourself and your specific differences with me or anyone else!
Just because you state that postings are arguing does that "automatically" make a participants contentions wrong!
No I don't think I will give up my views because some "take your ball home and whine" guy like yourself doesn't "care for it"!
Having the last word (or the first) does not make anyone right or wrong. But your complete lack of even trying to make a case and then whining about that says something about you! And its not flattering!
I again ask you to state your claims publicly and/or refute my contentions or take you ball and just go home again!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Sharpsman: I have not done any long range shooting at targets with it as yet. I will let you know when I shoot it for record at 50 or 100 yards!
Extrapolating my results so far at 25 yards out at 100 yards it looks like 2.400" to 3.000" would be the results out there with this first ammo tried.
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG ,

Did you get to wack any groundsquirrels with the S&W??I saw the .204 GS report with no mention of the Smith in use.I'd bet it would take 'em out to 100 yards easy with a good rest.

Sharpsman: Yes I made a posting somewhere around here about the S&W Model 647 whacking Ground Squirrels out to 65 yards so far for me! I may opt for more scope power before I try the 100 yarders!
The S&W fits my needs pretty well now the way it is though! I plan on using it on Grouse here in Montana and maybe even Fall Turkey (Spring Turkey season does not allow pistol usage here in Montana!). And for those close in Ground Squirrels its really neat on the fields where the ranchers and farmers need every last one of them shot!
I would be out with it today but I am waiting on an elctrician and the wind is blowing about 35 MPH!
Come on spring!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by R. Walter:
What is it about you VG? Always arguing. The way you write you must sound like a 2 bit English Country dandy. I'm sorry. You're just annoying.

You always got to have the last word. I'm out!

Back off Dude.

I like reading what VarmintGuy has to say. If you read the posts with an open mind you might actually learn something.

Swede44 Mag: Thanks for the back-up! I forgot to ask of R. Walter just what does a two-bit English country dandy sound like! I don't think I have ever heard (or seen!) a two bit English country dandy.
Yeah I try to interject real life and long time observed information from my experiences in my posts and in my answers to questions. I completely accept that some Hunters/shooters may or may not agree with my posts. So be it - but when challenged I will certainly try and defend myself or gracefully accept correction. Its just not often that I am corrected to the point of my own convincement! I was somewhat corrected on this forum (or the Small Caliber section of this forum) by some knowledgeable ballisticians. Even though their correction of me was way out of the parameters of the ongoing discussion I did learn something and thanked the poster for providing an answer (although again it was somewhat afield of my contention) to a question I had posed and my asking for my contentions being agreed with or disputed!
R. Walters has apparently taken his ball and gone home and thats fine to. But I will ask of him additionally (and anyway) what in fact does a two bit English dandy talk like (or posts like)?
Snowing and windy here in SW Montana today!
Good day for reloading and listening to Rush on the computer.
I also do not know if I made it plain how really impressed I am with the single action trigger of this stainless S&W Model 647! It is just perfect! And I have shot a lot of S&W revolvers in single action mode both off hand over sandbags!
I have to send off and E-mail to the S&W folks to inquire if the 17 HMR Model 647's are in fact not being manufactured this year or if it was an oversight that they (the 647's) were left out of the 2,005 catalog by mistake.
That will be another good project for this windy snowy day in Montana!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by Swede44mag:

quote:

Originally posted by R. Walter:
What is it about you VG? Always arguing. The way you write you must sound like a 2 bit English Country dandy. I'm sorry. You're just annoying.

You always got to have the last word. I'm out!

Back off Dude.

I like reading what VarmintGuy has to say. If you read the posts with an open mind you might actually learn something.

...or a closed mind.
Nobody's opinion is more valuable than anybody elses.

If you really want to know, simply Google "English Country Dandy" and you will know what one is.

VG

After having used the 17HMR extensively..... would you say it is marginal or entirely adequate for coyotes???

I have killed a bunch of coyotes and have a fair idea what it takes to anchor one.....after reveiwing the performance of the 17 HMR...and reading accounts from several other folks who have used it on coyotes....I personally don't consider it, or any other rimfire, enough gun to reliably and cleanly kill coyotes consistently .....but I'd appreciate hearing your opinion......

By the way.......since you mentioned that you believe the 17 HMR is superior to any other rimfire, I was just wondering how it compares to the 5mm Rem mag rimfire of days gone by????

Flippy: You making the statement that no ones opinion is more valuable than anyone else's is just plain absurd!
Have you ever herd of expert testimony or professional opinion? Doctors, Lawyers or people considered to be experts!!!
Opinions like just about any other thing in life ARE very much subject to a value scale!
Sheessh - where do you come up with blather like that?
I just had two Hunters in last week and we Hunted together for 3 straight days. They were both near 70 years old and have been lifelong Hunters and shooters! One of them owns an extremely successful Gunshop and has personally been the business owner since taking that shop over from his father in the 1950's! He has Hunted on three continents, Hunts Game Birds, Waterfowl, Big Game and Varmints! He has participated in International and National shooting competitions for decades! Are you saying his opinion is only as valuable as say some rube of an English Country Dandy like yourself?
Sheesh!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

GonHuntin: I have taken exactly 2 shots at Coyotes with my 17 HMR's - and I killed two Coyotes.
Not much to base my opinion on there in actual useage on Coyotes - but I have heard of a local Hunter here in SW Montana that has killed 23 Coyotes with 25 shots. He and I - I am sure were not taking long shots at Coyotes. Mine were both right at 100 yard shots and one was a head shot the other a heart/lung shot.
I would not hesitate to shoot a Coyote at 100 yards or under with my 17 HMR Rifle.
There is a legion of better all around Coyote cartridges out there - but again - I would not hesitate to shoot a Coyote at 100 yards or under with my 17 HMR Rifle. I did kill a large Boar Badger at 173 laser ranged yards with one shot from my 17 HMR Rifle last year.
I shot a couple of the old Remington 5mm Rifles but never at game just at the range. I am sure that todays bullets are more game lethal than the ones used back then in the 5mm Remington's.
Trajectory wise I am sure that the 17 HMR is superior to the 5mm's of days gone by. I used to buy and sell the 5mm ammo at Gunshows and turned many a tax free dollar doing so. I am sure I sold the last of the 5mm ammo I had. I do still have some VL Caseless ammo that I have been thinking of selling. That VL caseless cartridge is another cartridge I have shot but I have never shot at game.
Coyotes do take some killing as anyone that has Hunted them for some time can testify to but do not sell the 17 HMR short - its is very lethal on small game and Varmints! Due I think to the high quality and the high speed of its projectiles.
I am sure I have now shot over 2,000 rounds through my 17 HMR Rifle and about 200 through my 17 HMR Revolver! That may be relatively extensive - only due to the newness of the 17 HMR. I will say this that 98%+ of those rounds sent downrange have been at small game, Varmints and also at several Wild Turkeys! I will again state that I am VERY impressed with the 17 HMR cartridge both ballistically and lethality wise on game!
GonHuntin to specifically answer your "marginal or entirely adequate" question about the 17 HMR on Coyotes I would tend to rate the 17 HMR as closer - way closer to marginal than entirely adequate for Coyotes. That impression by me would not, though, keep from shooting some more of them from out around 100 yards and closer in.
Long live the 17 HMR!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy