I thought the 204 was the next fad caliber. Everone touting about how wonderful, how fast, how deadly. I have a few varmint rifles in 223 and 22-250 and they work great for coyotes and I had a personal rule of no new calibers. I recently had a chance to purchase a CZ 204 worth the money and saw 3 coyotes meet there end last week. I have joined the converted. 204 strong points: No kick, you get to watch the critter take the hit, you just put it on him out to 300, and very accurate. 204 bad point: May not be a fur gun. One of those coyotes was shot in the chest at 40 yards facing me and it dumped 5 lbs. of guts on the ground. I may need another 204. My ole huntin buddy bought his first Remington 204 the same day and has killed 11 coyotes and 2 bobcats and they all just laid down and give up. Strictly, my 2 cents. jb

jbok, Took you long enough!!! The .204 will convert a lot of folks if the ACTUALLY SHOOT ONE rather than just reading about them!!! MOST FUN CENTERFIRE VARMINT RIFLE EVER DEVISED!!!! Am I a fan of the 22-250? YES!!! Am I a fan of the .223? Mixed!! It's cheap and effective but the 222MAG was always better!! Am I a fan of the SWIFT? YES! A.I. the thing and it's even more impressive!! Am I a fan of the 17REM? Used to be till the .204 showed up!! GHD

Got a chance to let a few go out of my cousins 204 the other day and it's a nice little round.Can't see giving up my Swift for it but to each his own.

Jbok,
I think it is great that you have an openmind and purchased one. I personally think it is an awesome round. I am a fan of many smaller calibers(22-250, 220 swift, 243,6 mm, 25-06)just to mention a few. But my latest preferred is the 204 for a varmit round. I really love being able to spot my own shots.

I still take out my trusty 22-250 as well... as I am a diehard fan of this caliber as well...

It really doesn't matter what you shot the vermin with. What matters is that you are shooting vermin...

Can I have an AMEN???

Go kill some more yotes..

Jbok: Hoo-ray for you and your new 204 Ruger CZ Rifle! Keep after them - there are more Coyotes out there!
I know the longer you use your 204 the more advantages and positive attributes you will discover and admire with this superlative cartridge!
I personally am thinking of nominating the 204 Ruger cartridge for the title of "Best All Around Varmint Cartridge Of All Time"!
It may not win BUT it WILL place high in the top three!
You just ask Mr. Groundhog devastation how long he and his 220 Swift Ackley Improved will last in a good Prairie Dog Town or in a good Ground Squirrel Colony!
The 220 Swift and its various "improved" versions (220 Weatherby Rocket, 220 Swift A.I., etc etc) are fine rounds but their next to immediate barrel heat up, heavy recoil (comparatively), barrel wear, throat erosion, tedious reloading issues, expense, inefficiency etc etc etc will immediately show the "downside" to these rounds. The 204 exudes efficient, cool barrel, no recoil and accurate usage in a Prairie Dog or Ground Squirrel rich environment!
Whereas your (and his!) 204's will "shine" in this environment AND still kill Coyotes, Badgers, Fox, feral dogs, Porcupine and the larger Varmints emphatically! And do so allowing the Hunter to mark his shots and "hold on fur" to WAY out there!
Wishing you continued happiness with your new CZ 204!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: I do though agree with Mr. Groundhog devastation that the 204 Ruger has the highest fun factor rating in a Varmint Cartridge that I have seen to date!

One shot _ one kill: Yes you can have an "AMEN"! You can also have my "witness" and a hallelujah or three!
The 204 is definitely "a man's" Varmint cartridge even though it is hardly a wisp of a thing!
It is so efficient and accurate it makes up for any perceived ft./lbs. of energy shortage with that amazing accuracy, flat trajectory, wind bucking ability and lethality that falls far above what its ft./lbs. of energy would indicate.
Speed kills!
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by Oneshot_onekill:

Can I have an AMEN???

AMEN Brother and a hallelujah

Well boys i've got a lot of rounds thru my Swift and don't see any of this legendary barrel washing ??What tedious reloading issues??If your all going to hop on the .204 bandwagon at least give it a few years and then see if it's still as good as you claim.As far as a mans varmint caliber didn't you just state you don't like the Swift's mighty recoil.Long live the KING of the varmint calibers the 220 SWIFT(AMEN).Flame away ladies.

Deathwind: If you think a Swifts barrel will outlast a 204 Ruger barrel then you simply need more "trigger time" (experience).
Tedious: in that one of my Swifts needs brass trimming every other time I reload its brass!
Thats tedious! My other Swifts go about 3 loadings before length becomes near dangerous.
Swift brass is not long lived! Replacing brass rather often with my Swifts, thats tedious!
High pressures even in JUST near max loads with the Swift - that better be tedious! You must keep an extra careful eye out for all manner of pressure induced conditions with a Swift - like brass stretching, case head seperation, loose primer pockets, quickly lengthening brass etc etc etc!
I have shot some of my 204 brass 5 times now and have yet needed to trim them = less tedious!
Recoil that causes one to loose the sight picture in their scope (with the Swift!) is a detriment to ones shooting and Hunting - its just that simple Deathwind! I would MUCH rather be able to spot my own hits and be able to make an instant judgement as to follow-up shots (204!) than to have to guess where the initial shot actually hit (Swift!)!
No the 220 Swift IS NOT the King of the Varmint calibers - its a long way from that!
Don't get me wrong it is a very good Varmint caliber but its a barrel heater, an inefficient cartridge, only a modestly accurate cartridge, a relatively heavy recoiling cartridge (when considering Varminting needs!), and its ballistic performance can be bested by much more efficient cartridges!
Be patient Deathwind if you shoot your Swift enough you will be visiting the barrel replacement man soon enough! Much sooner, I am sure, than if you were shooting a 204! And that "visit" Deathwind if you do not know IS a very expensive "visit".
My good friend Irv Benzion shot the barrel out of his 40X Swift (failure to let cool in Colony Varminting situations!) in 1,800 rounds. I inspected that Rifle and there was no rifling for 2+ inches up from the chamber! His visit to the barrel replacement man was a $400.00 "visit" and that was 8 years ago!
You must allow your Swifts to cool between shots (before pouring another 38 grains of molten powder and gasses down that 22 caliber throat!) or you will SPEED UP the process significantly.
The 204 is no where near as heat inducing to a similar size barrel as the Swift is.
I know, I have been shooting (and waiting for their barrels to cool!) Swifts for many, many years (decades) now.
No flames intended Deathwind - but I also can't let you gloss over the Swifts detrimental attributes. That would not be fair.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Enought about the 204 alraedy. Lets see where it stands in a couple years. Give it a chance to prove its staying power.As it stands right ow I will keep my 223.

Gunz: You are wrong, wrong, wrong!
Letting such a wonderful ballistic performing, efficient and accurate cartridge as the 204 Ruger go unheralded would be doing a disservice to our Varminting and small caliber shooting brethren!
This cartridge is just to amazing to keep it to ones self!
Just a couple of hours ago, via cell phone, I spoke to 3 Varmint Hunters who are travelling from far NW Washington State to far NE Montana to do some Varmint Hunting - 3 to 4 species expect to be Hunted!
I asked what Rifles were along on this Safari and each Hunter had his own pet 204 and various other rimfire and centerfire Varminters!
This Safari (journey) is an arduous 1,000+ mile trek!
Each way!
And each of these Varminters is toting a 204! I know one 223 is along and 3 17 HMR's as well. These fellas are not only very experienced Varminters but they are bucks up kinda guys! They could buy (or ignore) any caliber they want!
All have 204's along!
Thoughts on longevity of a cartridge or staying power (popularity!).
There is NO doubt in my mind what so ever with the 21 months of at the range and in the field experience I have with my 204 Ruger Rifles that in "2 or 3 years" the 204 Ruger will be even more popular than it is now!
Keep your 223 - no one is asking you to sell it!
But withholding the amazing performance of the 204 Ruger from yourself Gunz - that is NOT a virtue, of patience or something!
Its an act of deprivation!
You are depriving yourself of the fun and performance of a splendid cartridge!
Why would you do that!
My strong advice to you Gunz would be to give a 204 Ruger Varmint Rifle a try!
I know you will be impressed and happy with it.
The 204 Ruger has been around for 2 full years now (at least) and I see no backlash or widespread discontent with it what so ever!
Is 2 years long enough for your "test of time" or is it going to take 5 years like you mentioned in your post?
I contend it has proven itself to me and legions of others, CONCLUSIVELY - and IF every Varminter on earth were to suddenly quit using it "2 or 3 years from now" - I would still keep shooting my 204's at Varmints and at the range!
And I would be just as happy then as I am now!
No - I won't quit singing the 204's praises! First of all you have given me no good reason to do so (probably because there ISN'T one!) and secondly I think by doing so would be a disservice to fellow shooters!
If I had some shooting friends and they knew how wonderful the 204 Ruger cartridge performed at the range and in the field and I was not aware of it - I would want them to tell me about it.
I think spreading "the 204 word" is the sporting thing to do.
Long live the 204 Ruger.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: Gunz all is not lost with the 223's though - I am going to make a posting here real soon regarding a Ruger 77 V/T 223 Varminter I just bought yesterday. It shot pretty well this morning (in the rain!).

I didn't say the 204 is better than anything else on the block. I am keeping my 223's and 22-250. Caliber is a matter of personal choice and preference. The 204 is no better, no worse, it is just a fun, flat shooting, deadly little round. (as they all are) One thing about a man, whatever we own is the best: our woman, our truck, our guns, our calibers, if were lying were dying. If you want to jump off the fence and try something new go for it, if not, shoot what you have. Now, my 3 cents worth. jb

You guys talk as if the 20 cal is something new!

Go and have a read of the forum on www.saubier.com

There are guys there that have been shooting the 20 Tactical (20/223) for over 10 years now and their 22-250/swifts have been sitting locked up in the safe since.

The 20 Cal is here to stay

Best thing about the .204 is that there will be a fresh supply of actions available for the .223 sized cartridges after guys start selling em' off.

I want a couple more 700 SA's and a CZ 527 or two to build a few things off of.

The web site http://www.rugerhunting.com/204_data.php has reloading info for the 204 Ruger round.

Haven't had a chance to shoot a .204, but the guys at the range love it.

I will stick with my .223s (my wife will not be happy if I bring home a new gun).

Of course, my wife might appriciate a nice little .204 for Christmas.... Of course I would have to "break it in".

Got to stop now before I have something follow me home from the gun store.

VG, I'M In! I just picked up a CZ 204.

Now, what do I scope it with? 3-12, 4-16, 6-18, I just can't decide and may drop my old 3.5x 10 Leupold on it to get started.

The Burris 4-16 looks good. Any thoughts anyone?

Lets stay in the $400-$600 dollar range if possible

Nikon Monarch is a great way to go for the money. $349 for 5.5x16.5x44 and $405 for 6.5x20. (optizone) I have one of each and they work great. jb

I would say it is obvious Varmintguy that you like the "new" cartridge 204 and have good reason to do so. Couple questions, what is the heaviest bullet available for the round and what is the standard, if there is a standard, twist for the round/bullet combo?
I strongly support the 223 due to it's unlimited sources on brass, load data, and multitude of bullet weights and proven barrel twists that perform extremely well with those various bullet/twist combinations. With these combinations of bullet weights, 45-90gr.- twists from 6.5-14, the 223 can serve very well as a casual plinker, varminter, superb target/match round, at ranges from 100-1000 yards. In short, very, very, versatile and extremely accurate and the recoil is quite low, very good barrel life and for all of those things to be in one package plus the fact that it is a military cartridge almost gurantees it will be here to stay for sometime in the distant future. It has taken some forty years-40 years!-to reach that status and the time frame of 2-5 years as mentioned is not a time frame to establish the long life future of the 204 or any other cartridge.

From all you have said the 204 does perform very well indeed and so it should or it would be a mistake to introduce the round to the shooting public, but there are years and years of debate to take place and then the jury will take a very long time in determining the outcome. I do not own a 204, might in the future, have owned and shot the 22/250 a bunch in hunting and long range matches, 8 twist-80SMK's, and superb round, but all around, that 223 works great from 100 to 600 yards plus with no problem at all and be it a sporting rifle, AR15, or long range prone match rifle, I will stick with the 223 and watch from afar as to just how the 204 fares. I wish it well.

Sort of off topic, but I'll ask anyway. Can 222 Rem Mag brass be necked down to 204Ruger? I have some new and one fired 222 Rem Mag brass that I need to use. I was thinking (which can be dangerous) of making a switch barrel rig out of my Rem 6oo .222.
Who makes a decent 20 cal. barrel that the average working man can afford??? I've used Douglas barrels in the past and always had good service out of them.

Jim

My 223's are still the "meat & potatoes" rifles but since I started shooting the 204, the Swift hasn't been out. My second 204 is due next week. Maybe I have a strange attitude but I really don't care what anyone else likes, I know what I like. The 204 is a fantastic PD rifle out as far as I can possibly hit. I am not into fads or the "caliber of the month" but I am really impressed with the 204. Good PD hits at 350 yds launch them into the air. Every bit as good as the Swift but with less recoil so I can see my shots. Over 40 years ago my Dad always laughed at magazine articles always saying that this and that were as good as the Swift. He said if the Swift is always the standard for comparison why aren't you shooting one? I guess I will have to answer to the old man when I meet up with him again.

driver-- I'm not Varmintguy, but I do have a limited knowledge of the .204 Ruger, so I'll try to answer your two questsions:

quote:

what is the heaviest bullet available for the round and what is the standard, if there is a standard, twist for the round/bullet combo?

So far, bullets available from well-known bullet makers include bullets in the 30 gr., 32 gr., 33 gr. Berger (no longer available), 33 gr. Calhoon, 34 gr. (not sold as a componenet to my knowledge), 35 gr., 36 gr. (no longer available) 39 gr., 40 gr. 45 gr., and 50 gr.

For bare bullets, Berger recommends 1-14 for the 30 gr. and 35 gr., 1-12 for the 40 gr., and 1-9 for the 50 gr. I have a 1-12 Savage 12VLP in .204 Ruger and the 40 gr. V-Max bullets don't seem to stabilize very well. The 40 gr. Berger LTB worked just fine, as do the 32 gr. V-Max, 32 gr. Sierras, 35 gr. Bergers, and 39 gr. Sierras.

The standard twist in factory rifles is 1 in 12". However, multiple custom barrelmakers offer the .204 caliber tubes. The twist rates range from 1-9, 1-10, 1-11, 1-12, 1-13, and 1-14.

I hope that answers those two questions for you.

Silverfox: Thanks for the help in answering Drivers and Jim P's questions.
I have shot bullets from 35 to 63 (?) grains out of my various 223's and if one were to go to bullets heavier than these then seperate Rifles with different twist rates would be needed!
I was just talking with a 1,000 yard BR shooter and he was telling me at his matches the wind anymore usually determines who was going to win the 600 and 1,000 yard matches (do the best as a group!) - if no wind then the 6mm BR type guys would do well! In the heaviest winds the fellows with the 408 Cheytac type Rifles would do better (win).
Conditions, ranges and planned usagaes do determine - to a large extent - what barrel twist and what size and type bullets (calibers?) one will be using in various competitions.
I don't see a lot of VLD, 65 grain + bullets flying out of 223's out in VarmintLand though.
And this is VarmintLand (the Varmint Forum!) isn't it.
I have NO idea what so ever how a 204 Ruger Rifle would fare at a 600 yard prone match - and frankly I could care less.
I do know the 204 is a splendid Varminting cartridge - well suited for 99% of Varminting usages.
I prefer the 32 and 35 grain bullets in my 204's.
Many of my friends early on in the 204 Ruger phenomenon did set up to use the 222 Remington Magnum brass in their 204's.
It has worked fine for all of them since then.
I went the more expensive way myself and used factory 204 ammunition (only way to get brass with 204 headstamps that was available at the time). One reason I stayed with the 204 factory ammo was because I have Rifles in calibers 222 Remington Magnum and 6x47. So I wanted to have headstamps I could more easily dedicate to my 204's and my 222 Magnums etc.
I am now in the process of switching from all Hornady headstamped 204 brass to using Hornady brass in one of my 204's, Winchester brass in another and Remington 204 brass in my third 204.
Believe me when I tell you NO ONE is more skeptical than I am! I was skeptical of the reports I got on the 17 Remington for 24 years! When Remington came out with the 17 Remington cartridge in 1971 I had already been aware of 17 caliber offerings for Varminters that had been around for several years already!
I just could not believe, totally, the reports about how well the 17 Remington (and its predecessors!) performed on Varmints and small game. So from 1971 to 1995 I "denied" myself the performance, fun and accuracy of a 17 Remington!
My bad there!
My various 17 caliber Varminters have provided me with tons of fun and countless hours of satisfying Varminting usage as well as pride of ownership!
I am VERY happy to have gotten on the 204 Ruger (20 caliber) bandwagon early on in this new "game" offered to the varmint Hunters of the world. If not to the 600 yard prone shooters?
If anyone is hesitant or "skeptical" of the 20 calibers as Varminters I hope to be able to alleviate some of that hesitancy and skepticism!
Nothing in it for me except the memory of my denying myself the adventure, fun and performance of the 17's for a quarter of a century!
The 17's are still doing pretty well by the way!
I am sure the 20's will be kicking along pretty strongly 25 (or 35!) years from now.
Unless of course Remington comes out with a "Laser Rifle" in the interim! You know the Laser Rifle that does not need the shooter to allow for windage and range! No recoil! No throat erosion! No barrel wear! And no countless hours spent in a reloading room!
Yeah that kind of a Rifle would probably work pretty well in the Varmint fields AND at the 600 yard prone matches!
Til then the 204 Ruger will I am sure do well.
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

West: I have two close friends that have also foresaken their Swifts after getting a full season of field use with their new 204's!
These decisions are made more on convenience, lack of recoil, lethality and performance of the 204 Ruger than any dramatic shortcomings with the Swift.
The recoil, barrel heat, proven lethality and better ballistic performance of the 204 Ruger is what pushed them over the edge for the 204's!
I have another friend that gave his beloved, customized 221 Remington Fireball Rifle (brass and dies as well!) to his adult son and is sticking with the 204 Ruger as his main go to Varminter!
For the "one or two gun" Varminter these folks may have made the right decision. Those of us that are blessed enough to be able to afford more than one or two Varmint Rifles the 204 Ruger would definitely be an asset to ones Varmint Arsenal!
Let your father shoot the 204 in the field and you won't have to break the "news" to him! He will see for himself.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Snapper: I have a Leupold 8.5x25 variable on my Remington XR-100 in 204. I have a Sightron 6x24 variable on my Ruger 77 V/T in 204. On my Remington 700 VLS in 204 I am using one of the beautiful Nikon 6.5x20 (made in the Phillipines!) variables!
I am a strong proponent of lots of scope power on Rifles in 204 Ruger caliber!
I strongly urge you to go with as much scope power as you can afford. A minimum or 14 or 18 power on the top end! The 204 can make use of lots of scope power!
I would concur with Jbok and his recommendation of the 6.5x20 Nikon - if your CZ is one of the heavy barrelled models. If it is a sporter weight then maybe a 4x12 or 4.5x14 would look more stylish on it and suit your needs better.
Good luck with which ever you choose!
And best of luck with the CZ at the range!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hello Varmint Guy,
I do not think that you can say the little 17 has become anyway close to a "go to cartridge" as many others are nor has the 204 and will not be for some time yet, if ever. Few would deem the 17 to be even close to a success. Rifle sales are very much documented and believe research would verify low sales compared to many others.
I do not shoot from a bench, they are very heavy and cumbersome in the field, and anyone shooting the 17 very much at all will tell you the dwarf round fouls the barrel something terrible.
The performance of the shooter in wind depends on more than just the caliber being used and a caliber less sensitive to wind drift is highly desireable, but the shooter will know, or better know, the drift for his round, bullet, load, etc. and compensate accordingly to keep his bullet impact in the 10 or X ring. I have been shooting long range prone matches for some 40 years plus, seen wierd and wonderful calibers be used, have never seen a 408 Cheytac at a match, and as for you not careing about shooting at 600 yards, (might point out that the old saying was"life begins or ends at 600 yards...") I would suggest that you continue not worrying about it as long as you are using a 204 for it would definitely be out of it's league.
Surely there is a rifle range in your area and you might want to check out the matches sometime to observe these various calbiers at work. Mind you, in order to be a classified, documented long range competitor for long range, 600 yards is the minimum distance considered) there are not just a few rounds fired, but 60 or more plus sighters and under a lot of variable conditions during a match and to observe such an event will give anyone a new perspective on shooting and real world results. Better yet, give it a try and must warn you , once you start, like eating chips, hard to stop.

Driver: I have attended and observed at my share of Rifle competitions! And I have long since made the concious decision to fire my Rifles at live targets!
Targets that move! Targets that are often times wary! Targets that do not have a row of daisy wheels and wind flags leading right up to them! And targets that are not always at an exact known distance!
I also prefer my targets to "live" in beautiful and often remote settings!
I never said the 17 Remington is a "go to cartridge" - what ever that is? I do say it is a splendid and useful (and accurate!) Varmint cartridge! Fur friendly and low of recoil! It is also quite lethal on all manner of Varmints.
You apparently contend no 600 or 1,000 yard prone shooters use it.
Again I say - so what?
It is a VERY useful tool for Varmint Hunters!
I know - I am one!
None of my 17 caliber centerfires fouls my barrels excessively. I can only speak for myself here and for the several friends I know and have watched them use their 17's.
Cleaning barrels is part of Rifle shooting and I have as yet to get any of my 17 centerfires to "foul" so badly in the Varmint fields so as to notice accuracy falling off, to where I am missing shots I expect to make!
I have been known to use Moly-coated bullets in a couple of my 17 centerifres and have run 50 shots in a string on Varmints with them.
Again no noticeable loss of accuracy for me.
In my 17's that use just plain copper Bergers I have not shot a string afield of that length.
Normally I would run 25 to 30 shots with them and set them aside for cleaning.
I have been dealing with the wind in Varmint country for many, many decades! I deal with it and make do - pretty well!
Among a host of tricks of the wind trade that I often invoke in Varminting situations are these two: I own a wind gauge! And I often set up my Varmint shooting position so that the wind is at my back.
I have seen you "target types" struggle at your various disciplines (cursing often times as you do!) there at your target ranges where competitions are held on a particular day and at a particular time - regardless of the wind conditions! The cursing I have observed would tell me that some of the fun goes out of these endeavors when the wind is causing frustrations to the point of blasphemy!
If you were to expand your horizon a tad and go Varmint Hunting - you could choose to have the wind at your back often times! And if it was overly windy you could wait for another day or wait for better conditions to enjoy your new found sport!
There are, like you imply, many ways to deal with the wind!
The Varmint Hunter has more options than the target shooter though. This is another reason I prefer to be a Varminter as opposed to a long range prone shooter.
I have never heard of life beginning or ending at 600 yards!
I often fire 600 rounds a day when Varminting!
60 rounds is piker bait.
To each their own I guess in that regard but more trigger time IS another of the MANY reasons I choose to pursue "live targets"!
So which caliber, do you prefer, there driver, for your long range Varminting - is it the 223?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
...and real world results.

Hey VarmintGuy, aren’t real world results in “your world†a dead varmint?

Don’t varmint hunters deal with the same conditions (“wind,†etc) as target shooters?

Aren’t our targets frequently moving and at various and sometimes unknown distances?

Hmmmm?


---Mike

About the only conclusion I, and I am quite sure many others, would come to about your writings/findings, statements, is that you do not have the foggiest idea what you are talking and writing about.
Let's see now, you have attended/observed many rifle matches and do not like daisy wheels, flags, etc.???? Ehhh, don't have daisy wheels and flags. (that is benchrest matches, not long range prone matches) Flags are certainly not the best idicators of wind speed or direction. If the flags are wet from rain, gives false indication. Lots of luck with the wind gauge and it is very good that you can always place the wind at your back. Gauge is about useless and the" wind gods" tend to do a very nasty thing and that is switch from side to side or even worse, all of a sudden quit blowing when you break the shot. Might suggest that you watch the mirage, feel the wind/breeze on your face, grass, leaves, etc. moving in a given direction and for speed, if that mirage goes away, might want to hold up. Have any idea why mirage and wind speed is important??
If the wind is coming from 3 o'clock to 9 o'clock and your est. speed is 10 mph and the distance you are shooting is, we will make it easy, 400 yards, how much wind adjustment would you put on in terms of minutes of angle to compensate for wind drift of your bullet?? Do you have a clue??
Don't worry about what caliber, if you can answer this question, you will be very close and if you can answer that, then you will have suffecient knowledge, experience to compensate for particular round/caliber you are using.
If your target is moving, walking, running, travelling in a vehicle, etc. how much lead do you estimate to realize a hit?? Do you have a clue??? If the angle of the shot is not perfectly level, up or down hill, how much adjustment do you make?? Do you have a clue?? I think not. However if you would take the time and open your mind a tiny bit, and attend a long range prone match the knowledge you would gain could be of tremendous help to you in your varmint shooting efforts and you would not have to wait for another day to shoot because the conditions were a puzzle to you.
And by the way, don't curse, never found that helped my shooting much, but in closing, would ask if you hold any skill classifications for shooting?? Would you claim to be a marksman, sharpshooter, expert, Master or High Master??
In short, have you demonstrated a skill in rifle shooting that is documented and recognized by all in the world of precision long range shooting?? If not, there is certainly not a thing wrong with that for many people love to hunt whatever, but without credentials of shooting skills, it is a mistake to debate a subject which you have at best a novice knowledge level.
Again, I would urge you to seek out one of these rifle matches you seem to dislike and go there with an open mind and perhaps, just perhaps, you might come away with a whole new, better understanding of what you are talking about. In closing, look forward to seeing your answers to the very basic questions posed to you.

driver

So basically , I take it , you are down on the 204 because it would not be a good choice for your long range match shooting ?

To that sentiment , I would say , so what ?

There is the shooting the average varminter wants to do , and then there is your matches , two completely different requirements.


The 204 is excellent for most varminting chores over the first quarter mile or so , where about 99% of the varmints are really killed, and yes it will be a "go to" caliber for varmint shooting in the USA , as the word is getting around just how superb a performer the little 20 caliber really is .

There are too many to list easily , but just *one* difference between requirements for your match shooting and a for a good varmint round is the frangibility(safety!) of the loads used.

Frankly , if a guy showed up at my place to shoot gophers and informed me he was using heavy match bullets , I would run him off . I don't want heavy slugs bouncing over hill and dale to drill my stock , maybe the neighbors stock , or maybe even the neighbor's kid .

quote:

If your target is moving,............ travelling in a vehicle, etc. how much lead do you estimate to realize a hit?? Do you have a clue???

Ya, I gotta admit I do not have a clue how much to lead a coyote or P. dog travelling in a vehicle(grin)

Nope, never said I was down on the 204, but the arguments being put forth that it is the superior round for varmints, etc. is not fact. Additionally, arguments about shooting skills, data, etc. put forth by VarmintGuy is pure nonsense. I am somewhat taken back by your statement that the rounds being used for match shooting would not be safe for that is the ultimate and absolute rule by all matches, safety. Sierra HP BT MK's whether 22 or 30 caliber, have a very thin jacket, hollow point, desinegrate instantly and certainly pose no safety issues whatsoever regarding ricochets. Nope, your safety argument does not stand up to the facts and you probably would "run the guy off..." since you did not know the facts.
Now, you mention some 1/4 mile and presume you are speaking about appox. 500 yards or less and as suggested in my response to VarmintGuy, would you care to guess as to the wind dope to use at the distance of 400 yards?? In addition what would be the "come ups" at that distance?? Many use a rangefinder these days and that will help, but if you do not know the elevation requried to cover the distance, what then?? Mil dots are a great reference point, but would venture to say that most who have them have not taken the time to learn to use them to estimate range. Again, even if they do, got to know the "come ups."
The answers should be fairly easy if one has lots of experience with shooting whatever round. You see, the point being, without the knowledge of precision shooting, lots of experience, blanket statements about a given caliber and their performance and statements that one is superior over another are just that , blanket statements.
Nothing would please me better and I am sure many others that the 204 is a resounding success and is around for years to come, but the ultimate test of time has yet to take place and touting the 204 as the ultimate varmint round, just "ain't so..." There is a huge body of knowledge available for the lowly 223 round and that is mostly due to the military and civlian match shooters as well, but that body of knowledge for the 204 is in it's infant stages at this time. Let's all hope it grows up and becomes the "big daddy" of varmint rounds. Shouldn't take more than 30-40 years or so.

driver

I have shot enough MatchKings in a couple of calibers (223 , 308) to know they don't meet my requirements for a safe bullet in a settled area. Certainly the extra weight and typical lower speeds of such loads work against them in that repect . In fact , there was a LENGTHY thread on AR here a few years back where many , many folks touted the match kings as pretty darn good game bullets (deer and up) . That tells me that many of the MK s in calibers and other weights I have not used are not near as frangible as you are making out here . But I am sure they are perfectly safe under the controlled conditions of your long range matches .

"come ups" at 400 yards ? I don't use that system ; under my conditons where say you spot a yote at 400 yards , you got maybe a couple of seconds to get off a shot , you don't have time to think about the range alot , you don't have time to whip out a rangefinder or dial in some clicks , you take the shot NOW , or the critter is gone. So with the flatter shooting stuff like the 204 , Swift, 55 gr 6mm and many other good loads you hold a few inches over his back . 200 to maybe 350 ? You hold on fur and make the shot , but you can't do that with the looping trajectory of a 223 match load .

Windage? It's been said many , many times , but it just doen't sink in with some folks ; the 204 allows you to spot your own hits , or misses , so shooting PD s for instance , you may not know the "clicks" to dial in for windage , but you can easily correct for a wrong guess . And while you are clicking , and also "guessing" the windage (and elevation) , I will kill 3 dogs or more to your one

And I don't agree with your assessment of varmintguys opinions or experience , I am quite sure he has successfully whacked more than his fair share of critters .

Well, like I pointed out, you don't have a clue. Never stated that I or others use a range finder or sticks, etc., perfectly OK if one does, and as for not using "that system..." is a clear indicator of the need for attendance to a long range match. Highly suggest you learn the ancient science of using the rifle sling and you will find it can become your very best friend, be it prone, sitting, kneeling, off hand, etc. whether in slow deliberate fire or fast target acquisition.
Now the "looping trajectory of the 223 match load," as you call it, is a very clear indicator that a good match would be a fine learning experience for you. Trust me, a day of doing so will make you feel about as small as a gnat, embarassed, foolish, you name it, but oh, what a learning experience!! You will come away with an entirely new appreciation of precision shooting. To give you a slight hint at "come ups" your rifle zeroed at 100 yards, and out to some 700 yards will require approx. 3 moa adjustment per 100 yards. That is some 21 minutes. MOA @ 100 yards is equal to 1" and therefore, slightly less than 2 feet hold over will put you on at 700 yards, if the wind does not get you and the 204 holds up at such ranges. It would seem to me that you are shooting and hoping for the best and if you miss, hold over, under, left or right and give her another pop!!
Look, you and I both know that you are not attempting to shoot each and every PD or pig, etc. seen at a moments notice and you do indeed have suffecient time to est. range, wind speed, aim and fire the shot. PROVIDING, you know how to do those things and not taking "pot" shots at the target. Granted, since you are limiting your shots with the 204 to some 300 yards and it has a flat trajectory, the flight path of the bullet would be of little use to you. Wind is no problem either. Are you SURE that is your position and your method of shooting???
Think about it.
I might point out that Sierra Manuals advise against the use of MK bullets for game use due to the desructive nature of the bullet and for the reason that the bullet will explode on contact with just about anything and produce a surface wound. No, Sierra MK bullets are not in the least good for deer or any other targets other than varmints and paper targets. As for a lengthy thread on AR concerning the application of bullets is certainly no valid reason to disagree with the mfg's own warnings. Similar threads take place every day on AR, long but no facts to support the threads! Often referred to as bull shit.
Bottom line, go learn to shoot, develop skills and a knowledge base that will serve you well for years to come and is quite applicable to whatever caliber you might select for shooting of varmints, deer, dangerous game, etc. You mention that your "spray and pray" shooting will get you more hits than my approach. Doubt that, and be aware that a skilled shooter will get the first one while you are spraying shots and hoping for the best. VarmingGuy made an earlier remark about the 204 needs a lot of scope power to realize the potential of the round. That is total nonsense! Prime example of no experience. Go ahead and crank up that variable scope to it's highest power on a hot and mirage rich day and see just how much vision you really have going for you!!

Well, still waiting on the anwers to questions posed and mind you there is a time limit on this test. Those failing to answer will immediately have their 204's removed and be relegated to shooting the lowly 223 and could even in the most severe modes of punishment, be relegated to the 22-250 or worse yet, the 220 Swift.
If you were only to make a feeble attempt to answer the questions posed, that alone will make you a better shooter regardless of the caliber you use. I know, would not want to confuse anyone with the facts. You can lead the horse to water, but you can not make him drink. God Bless, God Speed, and Good luck.

driver: Are you even aware that you are posting on the "Varmint Hunting Forum"?
Your mouth there driver is certainly quicker than your wit!
It will be difficult to keep up with and correct ALL the misgivings, errors and "jumped to conclusions" that need be done with your latest "chip on your shoulder" postings!
Be patient - I will get around to correcting all of them!
Lets start back a ways.
Do you own or have you used "extensively" in the field and at the range a Rifle in caliber 204 Ruger?
Do you for some reason deny that my wind gauge is a useful tool in the Varminting fields?
Or for that matter at any type of outdoor Rifle competition!
Do you deny that outdoor Rifle competitors USE wind gauges?
Is your 223, that you use for Varmint Hunting and 1,000 yard competitions, suitable for say Fox Hunting at night or Ground Squirrel Hunting in a thickly populated Ground squirrel colony?
If its your contention (and it sounds like it is!) that the only cartridge that can be termed succesful and useable for Varmints and 600 yard competitions is one that has been around for "40 years" then you simply do not realize how stupid you sound!
Please clarify your "age limitations" for cartridges that YOU say can be used on Varmints (or at a range competition)!
Again driver, how ridiculous you sound!
I have shot Varmints right along side all manner of target shooting types! And you know what they (and YOU!) are not superhuman! I hold my own right along side all manner of Rifle competitors while in pursuit of Varmints!
If you are trying to imply the only proficient Varmint shooters come only from the ranks of rifle competitors then again your ridiculousness causes me to laugh at you! You are simply as wrong as wrong can be and are in desperate need of more time actually in the field - Hunting Varmints!
Your well wishes for the 204 are neither sincere not NEEDED! The 204 Ruger is a fantastic Varmint Hunting round and will perform 99% of all common Varminting applications as well OR BETTER than the 223! The 204 IS a proven and splendid all around Varminting cartridge - with or without your insincere wishes! Save your breath boy - you do not have enough horsepwoer to prove or diaspprove how successful this cartridge is!
Do you want to know what I base this on there driver?
I will tell you!
Actual and extensive in the field Varmint Hunting and actual range use that I HAVE and of watching numerous of my Varminting partners display and rave about!
If you want to watch this fine Varmint cartridge perform from afar then make yourself happy! You ARE missing out on an exceptional cartridge that will provide you with exceptional performance - on Varmints!
Flippy is of course right, the results we here on the "Varmint Hunting Forum" are interested in is killing Varmints. Yes we do have to deal with wind and other conditions that may interfere with our quest for the often times wary Varmints! How about shooting at a running Fox 250 yards distant! Which cartridge would one rather be shooting at said running Fox?
drivers AR-15 in 223 shooting 80 grain Sierra bullets at 2,600 FPS or one of my 204 Ruger Rifles shooting a 32 grain Sierra at 4,200 FPS?
Duh... there driver, isn't that answer obvious to you?
The correct answer of course is the Rifle in 204 Ruger caliber!
Especially if one wants to save the now valuable pelts of said Varmints!
Yes our intended targets (as Varmint Hunters) are often at unknown distances, moving at unknown speeds and we don't always have time to check our "daisy wheels', wind gauges, wind flags, "Maggies drawers" and laser rangefinders!
On these occassion the superior ballistic performance (both trajectory wise, wind bucking wise and time of flight wise!) of the 204 over drivers 600 yard 223 prone gun is VASTLY superior!
And a host of more suitable Rifles and cartridges right along with it are bested as well by the 204 Ruger!
driver - I am not kidding you nor making fun of you when I suggest YOU actually buy and try a 204 in the Varminting fields AND at the range!
You will be impressed with the ease at which you make long shots and hit running game while using it!
I have nothing against 223 slam bangers and 223 slam banger users. I just know from experience there are better calibers and better arms to use for all around Varmint Hunting!
And to prevent driver or any other "204 Ruger naysayers" from accusing me of besmirching 223's and slam bangers and of trying to goad everyone into selling their slam bangers and 223's - I say this - don't sell them if they make you happy!
But don't have the unmitigated gall to erroneously try and tell me they are a better Varminting tool - they are not!
I own a trunkload of 223 calibered arms right now and have owned a TRUCKLOAD of them in the past! They are fine! They are nowhere near the best Rifles available for all around Varminting, but they are fine and do many things well.
Other things NOT so well!
driver for you to somehow "psychically" know what everyone is thinking, and to comment on it publicly, then well your head is getting to large for your hat!
Again that chip on your shoulder is apparently interfering with your thought process's here!
Your contention that wind gauges are useless again shows just how little real life in the field Varmint Hunting you have done!
I will let that ridiculous contention of yours speak about you on its own "merits"!
Your scenarios where you pose questions regarding wind angle of attack and clock diagrams and EXACT distances and converting that into the EXACT number of minutes of angle may serve you well on your cement bench, or your shooting mat at your range, where you have time to always make these calculations - try doing that on a Coyote that is running or even trotting across a Varmint field! I would guesstimate that unless that Coyote is running directly at you by the time you got done doing your calculations and then moving your sights to coincide with your "in the field estimated" needs - the Coyote would be 200 yards further down range! And if he saw you adjusting your minute of angle sights he would be 300 yards further downrange!
I have shot at running Coyotes in the wind for about 45 years now and again there are better ways, and Rifle/calibers (than your 223 with the VLD bullets or 80 grain bullets) to use for this endeavor!
The 204 Ruger is one of them!
I know!
I have used it!
driver, are you now EGOMANIACAL enough to now propose to classify my Varmint Hunting worth by way of your psychic vision and my past firearms classifications?
You my fine feathered friend are so ridiculous it must hurt you at times!
I will match my Varmint Hunting experiences, skills and proficiency with you or any shooter!
"I been around boy"! (quote taken from Al Pacinos character in the 4 star rated movie "Heat").
In a direct answer to your question I did qualify numerous times as a "Distinguished Expert" with service pistol (both with Smith & Wesson revolvers of various models and then with the Glock Model 22) during my 29 year career in Law Enforcement.
I know how to squeeze a trigger if thats what you are manuevering towards?
Your inquiry in this regard AND my answer has no bearing what so ever regarding the 204 Ruger calibered Rifles and their use and/or suitability on Varmints.
Does it?
You claim I am a novice Varmint Hunter!
Again driver, oh dear finely feathered character - you could not be more wrong! I hope you do not mind my correcting you! It simply has to be done.
Laughable is the only way to describe that latest incredibly stupid posting of yours regarding my Varminting experience!
I am laughing out loud at that one!
I told you once there driver I have been to more than my share of Rifle, pistol and shotgun competitions - they bore me!
Hunting and shooting Varmints is at least 100 times more exciting and entertaining for me (and dare I speak for others here on the Varmint Hunting forum!) and most all Varmint Hunters country! More exciting to watch or partake in than your prone 600 yard sixty shot discipline! If you enjoy that sort of thing - good for you!
But don't you dare try to somehow "psychically" rate or BERATE my enjoyment of Varminting NOR my proficiency at it! You don't have enough horsepower to make even a feeble attempt at accomplishing that, there driver!
Again your hat is gonna have a hard time staying on a head as swollen as yours must be!
driver I have never once berated your shooting skills nor commented on anyones shooting skills! Your rush to judgement, chip on your shoulder contentions in that regard are just that and more - they are baseless and wrong!
You have been wrong a lot lately! Ever notice that driver?
If you have data or facts disproving any contention I have made regarding the 204 Ruger then please post your proof!
Don't bore everyone by take snide potshots at me from behind your sisters skirts!
Make your case specifically!
I will debate it without the need for berating you! I won't heistate to point out all of your errors but it won't be me EVER stooping to personal attacks FIRST while I make my arguments!
Again, make your factual case, or take back your vague and ambiguous contention that I have presented false facts!
Thats what a man with a strong argument would do!
I have made a based and strong argument to go along with my contentions - try doing it yourself - I bet you can't though!
Step up off of your 600 yard prone mat there driver and factually present your case regarding the 223 and your 1,000 yard bullets performing better for 99% of the Varminting that real Varmint Hunters partake in!
I agree with sdgunslinger and have posted on this forum MANY MANY times in the past that I refuse to Hunt Varmints with anyone that uses the wonderfully accurate Sierra 22 caliber 52 gr. HP/BT MatchKings!
These bullets are simply not safe in most all Varminting situations!
I know I used to use them decades ago!
They are simply not frangible enough for safe use in most all Varmint situations!
driver - you are wrong again - sdgunslinger does have a clue! Now that I read his posting I can tell he has actually been out Coyote Hunting and has real Varminting time under his belt!
I don't want that to sound like another correction of you and where you are coming from as I am not positive I am correct in that regard.
I am not positive but I am pretty sure sdgunslinger has more real life Varminting experience than you have!
Exhibit number one IS your public need for correction regarding MatchKing bullets!
I know there are MANY better and safer bullets to use in the Varmint arena than MatchKings!
If you are to lazy to get a safer and better suited Varminting bullet in your slambanger then that is YOUR fault and your shortcoming NOT sdgunslingers, nor mine!
Safety should be job one for any Varmint Hunter! We as Varmint Hunters do not always have a 20 foot high "berm" behind our Varmints to stop ricochet prone bullets like the Sierra MatchKings!
On page #40 of my latest Sierra Manual I will quote (thus correcting you!) the Sierra Company themselves! Regarding using the MatchKings for Hunting "although some of these bullets have been used for hunting, Sierra recommends them ONLY for target shooting"!
Please for the safety of humans and other unintended targets like domestic animals DO NOT USE Sierra MatchKings for Varminting! There are simply to many other better suited and safer bullets to choose from.
You are in need of more correction there driver and I am now in the mood, to do it!
You say you can't crank up a high power variable on a hot mirage filled day! Well you are wrong again! I have done it and done it succesfully for decades now! Many thousands of times!
I am not shooting at your 6 foot wide bullseye when I do this "up powering" driver, I am aiming at the forehead of a Prairie Dog in the Thunder Basin that is bridging across his den with just the forehead peering at me from 350 yards distance! Or at a Rock Chuck that is old and wary and only has the top of his head showing as it peers out at the world from behind a lava rock in central Idaho! Or at the head of a Ground Squirrel that is shoulder deep in the late June grass of the Centennial Valley here in SW Montana! Yeah thats when you need to and CAN turn up the power of your variable scope up to its limit.
You need to do this to increase the odds of making the shot! I have done it 10,000 times at least so don't you dare say it can't or shouldn't be done!
I know better and I am beginning to want to speak for other expereinced Varmint Hunters in this regard but - I won't at this time!
Sure the image may be somewhat blurred or dancing or moved slightly by the drift of the mirage!
Deal with it!
If I can do it you can to!
If you are a Varmint Hunter?
Trying to make the shots I described at lower powers only increases your percentage/chance of missing!
If I were to pass up all the shots I have taken when the image in my scopes was not "perfect" then that would have cut down my kill numbers by 10% at least!
I can still make kill shots in slightly blurred images! Are you saying the mirage drift is less just because you dial down the power?
Sheesh man get out and go do some Varmint Hunting!
Yes, the 204 Ruger calibered Rifle can make use of all the scope power available in todays Varmint style scopes!
Its that accurate!
And yes one aspect of obtaining accuracy is more scope power! Accuracy has a direct correlation to the amount of scope magnification a particular Rifle has on it! Once up to about 40 power the increasing accuracy of the most accurate type Varminting and target (BR) Rifles seems to then stabilize!
Yes, I still strongly advise (based on first hand experience and lots of in the filed success!) strapping all the scope power you can afford to your 204 Ruger Varmint Rifle! Despite drivers lame arguments to the contrary!
This wonderful cartridge can make use (and reward a Varminter with more hits at longer ranges!) of lots of scope power!
Again driver that is not "nonsense" like you speculate! It is based on actual in the field and at the range first hand experiences!
driver, I use lots of Rifles in lots of calibers for my manifold varieties of Varmint Hunting. Based on my past and continued success's I don't think I need to qualify with YOU in ANY way shape or form by passing your "test"!
I am doing rather well without your "help"!
Again you are questioning my "facts" in your latest posting, there driver, but you do not specify which facts!
Specify them or don't!
I really could not care less! But I do not want to let you get away with influencing anyone - especially a new Varmint Hunter with your ambiguous and specious statements questioning either me or the wonderful 204 Ruger cartridge!
I will be specific (unlike yourself there driver!), when I again contend and specifically post, the 204 Ruger Rifle is better suited and will perform better for 99% of all Varminting needs than a comparbly equipped 223 caliber Rifle will!
I know this to be true (based on facts, ballistic tables as well as my extensive in the field and at the range experience!) and I post it here PLAINLY and UNAMBIGUOUSLY for your consideration and comment!
Be warned, there driver, I will defend this position with specifics and real live facts and figures along with the afore mentioned in field and at the range experiences!
I hope you do not mind being publicly corrected in so many ways driver - like I said I am now getting in the mood to do some more of it!
"204 Ruger naysayers - like your self may have to form a small group to try to protect yourselves. Because righteous slings and arrows are gonna be falling on you for some time to come!
driver, I STRONGLY suggest you go back to the top of this thread and read Mr. "jbok's" and then the gifted and learned Mr. "Groundhog devastations" postings!
Nothing was mentioned about 600 yard prone target shooting! Just good old first hand advice and observations regarding the 204 Ruger cartridge for Varmint Hunting!
Pay special attention to "Groundhog devastations" unsolicited description of the 204 Ruger cartridge!
I agree with him.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Now, now VarmintGuy, you damn near wrote a book, but in reality said nothing. I never did see where you answered any very basic questions pertaining to precision rifle shooting. Rather,a whole lot of ranting and raving, name calling, jumping up and down and kind of reminds me of "apedust" Not much there.
Nope, don't have to prove a thing to me at all. But trust me, your comments only go to show just how poorly trained and inexperienced you really are. Take a chance, see if you can answer those questions, hell, you might learn something! Not likely, but you never know and if by some small chance you did, the end result would be better varmint shooter instead of a bull shooter!!
Now VarmintGuy, you must learn to calm down and watch your heart beat, blood pressure, etc. for if not, you will miss that target. Are you seriously stating that you can not read the wind or estimate range and answer simple questions on those subjects?? That is not a good thing. I fear it is to the "back of the class for you."

Hey VarmintGuy,
Clock is ticking and still no answers, yes specific answers for I asked specific questions and no, they can not be answered by the "spray and pray" method.
Yes, you will have to think for a bit. If you answer correctly and send in one box top of your favorite 204 ammo I will see to it that you get a guaranteed, absolute foolproof method of reading the wind. Pull your head out of your ass and take a look see. Works every time. Additional correct answers and additional ammo box tops will reward you with outstanding method of determining range. Hurry, tiime is ticking away.

quote:

Clock is ticking and still no answers

Eleven minutes passes and you don't get a answer to your question. What can I say? Are we all suppose to bow down to you now or does that come later.

No, bowing down will be postponed at this time. I will let you know when it is time.
Time is up so no prizes for you guys and I was so looking forward to providing the full proof method of range determination. Well, can't have everything can we. Just have to keep the ol' stiff upper lip and press onward. Aint life grand and only in America!! God Bless, God Speed, and Good Luck. (got a feeling you are going to need all three!)

driver: Your form of telepathic idiocy is nearly overwhelming!
What makes you think I have trouble with the wind?
I have dealt with it as long or longer than you have and get along just fine with it!
What is not fine is you being unable to accept both the premise and the spirit of this Varminting thread!
I have shown you for what you are - a target shooter with a huge chip on your shoulder!
One that has NO experience with the 204 Ruger what so ever and should probably not be talking about things he knows nothing about!
I have further more callled you out and questioned not only your veracity but your experience as a Varmint Hunter!
Don't you worry about my heart there driver you have enough problems of your own!
The only emotion you crank out of me is humor (in the form of laughter!)!
My heart and my Hunting prowess are doing just fine despite you there driver! Especially since I discovered how wonderful the 204 Ruger is for Varmint Hunting!
Now you post, only YOU, has the correct way of "range determination"!
driver, your ego is your biggest problem!
Much more of a problem than using an AR-15 in 223 with unsafe 80 grain bullets for your Varminting!
Please reconsider this!
You can do better man, but you are obviously so bull headed, closed minded and biased you are just NOT going to let the facts get in your way!
Your wild assed speculation is running rampant there driver right along side your overbearing ego.
Tone it down a bit little guy and get back into the spirit of sharing your experiences with the 204 Ruger with others here on the Varmint Forum!
Ooohhh... thats right you HAVE NO EXPERIENCES with the 204 Ruger to share at all!
I almost forgot.
By the way I just returned from my private range. Sorry if this posting is not up to YOUR time standards! No I was not shooting any of my 204's it was a trip to try out some new 17 HMR ammo in my Varmint Rifle. I was in a bit of a snit as I am getting low on Remington 17 HMR ammo and have been unable to find it for some time now.
It turns out the Hornady ammo shoots to the same P.O.I. so I have that to fall back on if need be.
By the way you "forgot" to answer my direct question of you as to just how old a cartridge has to be to prove its ballistic worth to YOU!
I again stipulate that YOU sound stupid when you say things like that! I am not saying you are stupid - but I am saying that you say stupid things and folks notice that and make correlations!
The Ground Squirrels are do out "en masse" soon and I want to be well stocked with ammo by then!
Ever try your AR-15 with the 80 grain MatchKings on Ground Squirrels there driver?
If so please let me know what State you get after them in because I don't want to be there in that State for fear of one of your misguided ricochets hitting me or my VarmintMobile!
Keep showing your ass there driver its not only good for laughs - its entertaining seeing how many errors you can make, how many incorrect conclusions you can jump to and what a huge built in chip on your shoulder you carry!
Your self professed "champion at everything" attitude is not only unsportsmanlike its showing you for what you are - a "know it all" with an unpleasant attitude and a huge chip on your shoulder!
I am still laughing at you here driver, no heart attacks at all.
I would really like to know your facts and figures that prove my contentions wrong regarding the 204 Ruger.
I do most of my range estimations and wind estimations in the field there driver, where its usefull.
Passing or failing your trumped up test goes nowhere towards the worthiness of the 204 Ruger in Varminting situations!
And again this thread and its postings are in the Varmint Hunting Forum - aren't they driver?
Get off your mat and go do some real live Varminting with a real live 204 Ruger and I will perhaps then lend some creedence to your blather!
Til then you are just an unsportsmanlike, 204 Ruger naysayer with a chip on your shoulder, shooting unsafe bullets in the field!
Nothing more.
None of that is good by the way there driver.
Long live the wonderful 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: Did you happen to go back and read jbok's and groundhog devastations postings! You might learn something if you do. He-he!