Why I buy Remington - reason #27!
I just returned from a range session with two of my "big irons". One is a Remington Sendero in caliber 270 Winchester!
This is simply a version of the Remington 700 Varminter but is built on a long action and is in caliber 270 Wincester. This Sendero has the 26" Varmint contour blued barrel and a fiberglass stock.
I have owned this Rifle for 3 years now. I mounted a Leupold 6.5x20 scope on it and did a trigger job on it. No other tweeking or modification has been done to it, what so ever!
From day one with this Rifle it has been accurate, easy to do load development with, dependable (repeatable), easy to clean and its handling and balance leave nothing to be desired by me!
I have killed several Coyotes, Antelope and Mule Deer with it so far!
Todays range session impressed me and in a way startled me - again. I gave this Rifle some very hard use last year. I verified its sight in sight in then took it on two Antelope Hunts, several Mule Deer Hunts as well as using it on Coyote! It bounced along for many hundreds of miles in my and other folks vehicles!
I cleaned its barrel at the end of the year last year and today was the first time I fired it since. I had planned on firing a three shot group with it once it was at my chosen point of impact there at 100 yards. I fired two shots from the clean barrel and the two 27 caliber bullets made a small figure "8" cutting each other, there at 100 yards! Not only were they cutting each other they were exactly where I wanted them to be both for elevation and windage! In other words the point of impact of this Rifle had not changed from last year NOR from the year before that!
I thought about firing a third shot into this "group" but I mulled it over and I have become so secure (confident) with this Rifle I simply put it back in its well padded case.
Now, that is saying something, about my happiness with this Remington Rifle!
The other Rifle I had along today performed very well also. Splendidly, if I might be so bold as to comment honestly and without modesty!
This Rifle is one designed for not only Antelope but also for High Plains Mule Deer and Varmints. It is a custom pre-64 Winchester Model 70 in caliber 240 Weatherby. It also has a Leupold 6.5x20 scope on it and uses a 27" Hart stainless barrel. It is a thing of beauty with a custom Varmint style English Walnut stock. I did fire 3 shots from this rig and was well happy with its wonderful grouping of .371"!
These Rifles are somewhat comparable in weight, size, barrel length and they use the same make and power scopes.
I just measured the "two shot" "group" I made with the Remington Sendero and it measured .184"! Maybe tomorrow just for something to do I will drive back to my range and lay a third shot in that "group" just because - I can.
My main point in this comparison of the custom Rifle and the Remington 700 Sendero is that I paid 3 times as much for my custom Rifle as I did for the Remington Sendero!
That is a "valuable" lesson for me and for anyone considering spending the bucks (big bucks!) for a custom Rifle.
Maybe one should be content with the Remington factory offering or at least give them a try!
Now and then I see these Remington Sendero's on the shelves of the various sporting goods stores out here in the west.
I have checked both Remingtons 2,005 web site and the 2,005 Remington catalog for any mention of a "Sendero" Model but none was found.
Maybe Remington just makes some each year and does not list them in the catalog or on their web site.
Anyone have any info on these Sendero's and their present status with Remington?
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG-the rumor I heard is that they dropped them, I know if it is true it makes no sense to me either.

I also heard that they were not gonna do their Classic anymore, not sure I agree with that one either.

But I am a Realtor not a Rem big wig so it really does not matter.

MD

Is it true thay have dropped the sendeneros for good ?? That was stupid really, it's one of there best guns. I feel luckt to have gotton on to the rem 700 pss .300 RUM I have just aquired as thats no longer made either.

VG reminton has lost their freiking minds!!
They dropped the Sendero Line so now you can't get a heavy barreled gun in a deer hunting caliber except 308 the rest are varmint cals.
The classic line I'm not sure about but the Damn fools also quit chambering their own short mags except in the model 7 Magnum's which was the next dumbest move since dropping the Sendero line if you ask me!
Hell you can't even get a RUM anymore except for one or two models!
I am picking up every Sendero I can afford in almost any caliber and since they are going to let the SAUM's die I'm picking them up also.
I hope someone at Reminton snaps out of it or comes down off their crack binge and brings back the Sendero's, RUM's and SAUM's!

All: Well as you all may know, I am a BIG Remington fan! But Remington is NOT immune to making bad decisions from time to time!
In my opinion they have made quite a few "mistakes" in the past and if this latest Sendero situation is true then that will be one more poor corporate decision that will no doubt turn out to hurt them!
The all time lunatic corporate decision though, I think Remington ever made was when they quit offering the 222 Remington cartridge in their various Varmint Models - I mean come on!
When a used Remington 700 Varmint Special in 222 Remington (from way back when!) hits a Gunshow anymore its like a free for all starting up! The folks just descend upon them and they are gone in no time!
There is just NO WAY Remington would lose money if they offered their Varmint line in calibers like 17 Remington (I have one of these by the way - from a limited run), 221 Remington Fireball, 222 Remington, 222 Remington Magnum, 6x47, 6mm Remington, 257 Roberts, 260 Remington (I have one of these by the way - from a limited run?), 6.5x284, 7mm/08 and 308 Winchester! Let alone making long action Varminters (Sendero's) in calibers like 25/06 Remington, 270 Winchester, 280 Remington, and the various 300 Magnums!!!
Get a grip Remington - I mean come on, common sense is obviously in somewhat short supply there at Big Green anymore!
Maybe I will also start snapping up the Senderos I see at shows and shops - in my travels?
Yeah, I need someone to tell me just how Remington Arms Company would lose ONE CENT by offering a Varmint Model 700 in 222 Remington!
Maybe a heart felt and constructively critical letter is due to the bean counters at Remington - from me (their biggest fan!). Think it would do any good?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Honstly VG I don't think they would sell that many triple deuces in any tube let alone a hvy barrel I know that sounds about half commy but after 3 years in retail gun business I am here to say I would be on them not selling many. Just my 3 cents. Not to say it wouldn't be a nice rifle I just don't beleive it would sell many. The 204 would and the 17 would not.

One gun I wish they would of made and never made it was a Sendero in an 06. I mean they made it about everything else for crying out loud.

Gun companies, go figure it is easier (almost) to figure women!

MD

I like Remington....my VSSF in 220 swift is the most accurate rifle I've shot, but Leupold has to get some credit here too! Great range report btw.

VG, I have a remington sendero in 25-06 that has taken quite a few dogs out past 800 yards as well as several white-tail deer. Quite a shame if they chose to no longer make the sendero's. If they made the triple duce in heavy barrel, I'm afraid there would be a couple in my house.

VG I think all of us Rem fans need to start emailing them requesting the Sendero's be brought back!
They are a Damn fine rifle!
If they get enough different emails it could happen!

7Rumloader: Count me in - I will send off an E-mail tomorrow!

Jbhewitt: I agree with you 100% - I know a couple of fellows that have the 25/06 Senderos and they are also very happy with them! And again I reiterate - I can not imagine the Remington Arms Company losing even one red cent by again offering this caliber in this model!
And I am one of many that I know who would instantly add a heavy barrel 700 in 222 Remington to their arsenals! I already have 5 222 Varmint Rifles and would not hesitate to go for one of the new ones if offered!
And congratulations on the 800 yard+ shots you have made with your Remington! Good for you!
That is an impressive feat!

Keithv35: I just bought a Remington 700 VS SF last year myself it also is in caliber 220 Swift! I added a big variable scope to it and its best 5 shot 100 yard grouping is a nifty .399"er!

Mark Dobrenski: Yes of course the good old 30/06 in a Sendero Model would be a useful and versatile Rifle! I had an older Remington 700 Varmint in caliber 308 Winchester that shot like a house on fire! I shot a couple of Antelope and a Coyote with it and mistakenly traded it off for something else! That Rifle with a Leupold 6.5x20 always shot 1/2" groups with my handloads! Yeah, I would like to have that one back!

Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Remington has a long history of making bad production decisions. I am really surprised that they just keep doing it. Evidentally these decisions do not cause enough damage to their bottom line to make them reconsider. They have consistantly introduced very good cartridges & just let them die because they just did not advertise them. They bring one out & after the initial release the shooting public hears or reads nothing else about them. It seems like they could learn something from Winchester in this category.
It is just unbelievable that they cannot see how bad of an idea it would be to drop the Sendaro, if that is the case. That is one of the best looking & shooting rifles I have ever seen. I own several Varmint Specials & love shooting them. I guess that I will be keeping an eye out on the used market for them as well.
I don't know if contacing Remington would make any difference, but I would be willing to give them my two cents.

Mark Dobrenski,
For what it's worth, every few years Ruger will release its stainless sporters in .222Rem onto the Australian market. They rarely last long, but neither do I know how many units are imported. Likewise every few years a run of Ruger VTs with fast-twist 223 barrels appear and disappear just as fast.
Cheers...
Con

The Sendero was not selling well. What do you guys think they do, kill a gun that pulls in lots of cash? Bottom line is that they were not selling.

"Bottom Line Is" is that Remington is owned by an investment group, they have been "bankrupt" for several years but because of the investment group they are still in business!! I was in Madison, N.C. today.....headquarters of Remington!!! Not Ilion, NY or wherever......Madison, N.C.!! If I had been running the company, half of their catalog wouldn't need printing......the back half where the knives, shooters bags, eye and ear protection, safes.....whatever....didn't need to be in that business!!......and unless someone steps up and invests or buys that part of the business, REMINGTON catalogs will only be GUNS next year!!!
The SENDEROS were the class of of the production varminters/long range stuff!! The quit making them!!! They made them in 25-06, 270, 300WM, (maybe something I left out!!!) as of late the 300SAUM(not really a Sendero but they shoot damn good!!!) 7mmSAUM. If I had been running the company through the late '80's and '90's and up till now......the original XP-100's would never have been dropped in favor of those "modified Model 7's with a go to hell rear grip stock", the "504" would never have seen daylight, as it won't compete with a good "581"(not to mention a 541!!) and what the hell were they thinking when they quit pushing the 6mm, 25-06 and .260????!!!!! 3 of the best, most useful chamberings of all time!! Look at their catalogs and see what they offer those chamberings in!!!
And don't get me started on the SAUM's!!! They had the "RUM'S" in the forefront......wanting to bring the "big dogs" out to hunt.....all the R&D was done on the SAUM's but they set them back so they could launch the magnificent "RUM'S"!!!!.......Winchester and Browning(they're both in financial staights too!!) beat them to the punch with the grand and glorious "WSM's"!!! INFERIOR CASE DESIGN!!! They're accurrate but they are at their maximum!!! Can't do a thing else with them!! Load it and like it or trade it away or rebarrel to something else!.....and the WSSM's????? Somebody show me a reason to pick a .223 WSSM over a 22-250 or a Swift or a .243WSSM over .243Win or 6mmRem and they're none of you out there who can give a solid half ass reasonable argument for a .25WSSM over a solid performing(GOD'S gift to rifledom) 25-06!!!
Now I do happen to know where there are 20 Senderos chambered in 300SAUM that can be bought! Contact me if you want one! I just wish there had been 100 of them sitting bck in the shelves in 25-06 and .270!!! But there are a few out there if you know where to look!! Sorry for the rant but it's one of those little mental glitches that befuddle all of us at times!! .......no it wasn't a "mental glitch"!! It's the way I feel!!! Charlie Milliron (GHD)

quote:

The Sendero was not selling well. What do you guys think they do, kill a gun that pulls in lots of cash? Bottom line is that they were not selling.

They always flew off the shelves around here.
I currently own several of them and know others that do as well. I know we accounted for very little in sales but it aint like they hardly ever sold one either.
I have heard and seen more complaining about the discontinuing of them on forums of this nature than I care to read.
I personaly want em back! I think their death came from the short mag craze. Everybody wanted short and light. Oh well!

VG my email has been inbound more than once over the past few months with no promising answers. Maybe just maybe if they get enough emails concerning bringing them back they will but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

AnotherAzWriter: You could and MAY be right? But there is no one and I mean NO one that I know that gets around to Gunstores, pawn shops, major sporting goods chains (like Bob Wards, Sportsmans Warehouses, SportCo, Cabelas etc etc etc) Gun Shows, top quality Gunshops (like Kesselrings Gun Shop in NW Washington etc) and other Gun selling venues - more than I do.
I was in three different Gunshops in Kodiak, Alaska last year! I was in Gunshops this year alone in Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, Montana and I think one in Missouri!
I have attended Gunshows in five states so far this year.
I get around!
And I have for the last 3 decades!
And in my travels and trades I pay PARTICULAR concern to Remington Rifles. And I pay "extra" PARTICULAR attention to heavy barrelled Remingtons!
Based on this I am going to contend mildly that you are wrong!
Heavy barrel Remingtons of all kinds sell, and SOLD, quickly! Including the Senderos!
Yes - to answer you specifically and directly - I do think the Senderos sold well maybe not gangbusters style, but well!
And yes, I think Remington was making money on the Senderos - just maybe not as fast or as much as they had hoped.
I will let you know what (if anything) I learn from the E-mail I sent them (Remington).
Long live Remington
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

AAW, I don't get paid to write! I do sometimes get paid to test! And if I had to write HONESTLY about my testing, sometimes it wouldn't be pleasing to the pay'ors!! But I will always be honest in my testing!! That's why I guess I'm just like most of the folks on this site......working at something else besides guns for my living!! Most of the writers of the gun rags wouldn't make a wart on a bunch of us here's asses as far as knowledge or"BT, DT" scenarios!! They just happened to be in the "right place at the right time" to land a lucrative job!! I don't read ST, G&A,....rest of the stuff anymore!! Like I said, "BTDT"!!! If a rifle shoots "1.5-2. MOA" and I've got to approve of it......I can't!! Either they got a very very bad specimen or they can't shoot!!! (Unless it was some of Bill Ruger's bullshit he pawned off on the public!!!) (Go ahead VG, Jump in My doodoo again!!!) On the last statement, before EVERYBODY who owns a Ruger jumps me at one time and overloads my mailbox, the Ruger bolt guns(77's) are probably ok!!(Some of them have proven to be....especially a little .257Roberts in that original "light rifle configuration", not the current sawed off square shorties version) The .223's that they marketed as "ranch rifles" were probably just that......"shoot it and it may land on the ranch!!" I'd love a chance to shoot with Rick Jamison(sp) and some of those other "afficianados"! And even spend a bit of time in the reloading room with them! GHD

Groundhod devastation: Your latest posting is why I peruse these many Varminting and Gun related sites! I want the truth and the honest opinions of other regular folks like me when it comes to what and how the factory Rifles are doing.
I want to hear the good and the bad.
I am not a die hard defender of Ruger - I have applauded them recently for two OUTSTANDING firearms I have purchased lately from them:
#1: Ruger 77/17 V/T in 17 HMR
#2: Ruger 77 V/T in 204 Ruger
BOTH of these Rifles are exceptionally accurate, have good triggers, nice feel, nicely designed, well balanced and maintain their points of aim from Hunt to Hunt!
I am very well satisfied with their looks, performance and value (cost!).
Other than those Rugers I have had more than my share of trials and tribulations with the last 15 years or so production model Rugers. Some were great some were clunkers!
Back to Remington - over the last 20 years I simply CAN NOT FIND a Remington bolt action Rifle that was not SPLENDIDLY accurate! And believe me when I tell you I have bought A LOT of Remington bolt action Rifles in the last 20 years! 45 or 50 I am sure!
Yeah a few of them have had some minor defects like unfinished wood in the barrel/action channels, heavily set triggers, a metal washer added now and then between the floorplates and the wood or fiberglass stocks to make them fit flush - etc!
But again I have been very happy at least with the accuracy from all the bolt action Remingtons I have bought in the last 20 years!
As well - I have also been quite happy with the design, barrel quality, barrel lengths, triggers (after adjustment), and Remingtons continued leadership in breaking "out of the box" or out of the mold in their willingness to try different things (calibers, models, finishes etc).
I have not even had to glass bed or recrown a Remington during the last nearly 20 years!
In other words I am pretty happy with Rugers stuff and extremely happy with Remingtons stuff as of late.
I have spent some time around a couple of fairly well known Varmint type outdoor writers and they are just regular "Joes" - yes I would agree with you in that they know which side of the bread that their factory friends put the butter on - so to speak!
Ruger did go through a poor streak some time back regarding barrel quality, extremely long throat lengths (and they weren't the only ones doing this!), heavy triggers and other poor choices regarding making their Rifles accurate! I think they are curing that situation as of late!
Long live Ruger!
Long live Remington!
Long live Varmint Rifles!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Hey guys it is about to snow here so I am behind a puter instead of behind my big eyes looking for bruins.

That said, I've some time to kill so I'd like to give my 12 cents to this whole Sendero deal.

First off I've worked the last 3 years in retail settings of sporting guns. Scheels and Bob Wards and have a lot of ties with friends that are in sales and ownership of other sport shops. So, these comments of mine are coming from the other side of the counter. And from my time talking to these oweners/sales people from these other shops I have a pretty good idea of what actually sells and what does not.

First off to Con-the 222 may well sell good in Australia but here it would not. Oh sure you'd get your occaisional triple deuce nut that would pick one up. But for the most part if a shop sold a couple each year that would be about it. These days it is pretty much about speed, it sells. So I stand with what I said about it would be a very slow mover.

Next off to VG and 7 RUMloader- I am pretty sure VG hasn't been working behind the counters. How's about you 7 RUM, I would honestly be willing to bet that you haven't either.

Comments like the Senderos "fly off the shelves" is just not the case. Once again they will sell a few each year, but in the tri state area I work around it is not the case. And while I don't know where you live I'd be willing to bet that if we talked to a couple of sales people or owners where ever you live they would not echo your comment.

Now on to you VG (and for what it is worth I am not trying to be a horses rump here), but so you travel a bit. You get in gun shops from here to there (yep so do I), what on earth does that have to do with knowing how many Serndero's a shop actually moves every year? Just because you see the shelves does not mean you have a clue as to how many yellow forms are done on Sendero's each and every year.

That is kind of like me walking into pizza joints all over the world and saying I've been to a bunch of them they sell XYZ pizza like crazy! In either case neither of us would actually have any clue as to what we are talking about.

Honestly guys, I don't really think that Rem was moving very many of them,are they neat rifles yeah. Do I think that they should of gotten rid of them not from an emotional standpoint. But, from what I saw from the sales end then I would say yeah it was a good move. In then last 3 years I can honestly remember 2 of them going out the doors (both were stls fluted 300 RUM's and no blued ones at all). This isn't exactly settin any sales marks.

Just my opinions guys, sorry if I sounded like a terse horse butt, but that is the way it is from the other side of the counter.

Have a super weekend guys, get out and play in the snow!

MD

Mark Dobrenski: Amen to the bad weather - the lightning bolts are flying down here in SW Montana as well as rain, sleet and some snow up a tad higher than I am.
So you have a full three years in Sporting Goods sales- hmm... I am not impressed much with that ESPECIALLY your time at the Bob Wards store there in Bozeman!
My attention to Remingtons long heavy barreled guns in my travels has told me this - those long heavy barrelled Remingtons aren't there when I get around to that store again. No, there were never many Senderos on anyones shelves at any one time but they had a habit of getting sold! They moved out of stores I would not say quickly but I would say steadily! I contend my travels and observations over time does in fact allow me to voice an opinion on how the heavy barrels move!
Unless they got shoplifted - they SOLD!
How many Sendero's (blued stainless or otherwise!) are sitting on your stores shelf right now? And which store is it by the way as I am coming through Bozeman shortly?
As per your observations regarding the heavy barrelled 222's not selling well in the last couple of years (3?) I contend that Remington has not offered for sale ANY heavy barrelled non-Custom Shop 222's for 15 years or so! That is obviously a lot longer ago than when you began your 3 year career in Sporting Goods!
I stick with my contention that ANY Model of Remington heavy barrel Rifle in caliber 222 Remington does not SIT ANYWHERE (Gunshow, Gunshop, pawn shop, sporting goods store, garage sale etc) - they sell and are in strong demand! At least in the states I travel! I do not know where you travel Mark but in the western U.S. a heavy barrel 222 Remington in even half way decent shape sells quickly!
Let alone the heavy barrelled Remingtons the sporter weight Remingtons in 222 don't sit anywhere either! And I am now referring to the 722's, 700's, 788's and 660's! They MOVE and do so with zest!
I recently spent two weeks out in the Seattle area on a body guard assignment. I was only able to do Gunshops on Saturday afternoons while there. I travelled to one of my all time favorite Gunshops Kesselrings (1-360-724-3113) near Bellingham, Washington! The first weekend I was there I saw a nice, VERY NICE Remington 722 in caliber 222 Remington on their rack. It was listed at $545.00! I offered the sons owner $450.00 cash and he wouldn't even consider my offer. I went back the next weekend after I had verified the shop owner would be there that weekend. I Varmint Hunt with the owner and have dealt with him cash wise for 35 years! The owner was there but the 722 in 222 Remington was GONE! It had brought full price!
Have you ever seen the rush a Ruger #1-B in caliber 222 Remington brings at an auction or Gunshow?
Its a sight believe me!
I know the #1 in 222 is a collector thing but the Remingtons in 222 are sought after mostly to be used - by Varminters! And again I contend they (you) would sell more if offered in more styles!
Do you think it would cost Remington a lot to offer their heavy barrel Rifles in 700 VS, 700 LV-SF and XR-100 (not just the 40X's) in 222 Remington? I think not and I think they would sell! Maybe not as fast or as many as in 223 or 204 but they would not sit around for long - I firmly believe that!
And yes, I in fact did sell firearms, for about 25 years! I had an F.F.L. and sold arms and scopes exclusively! I chose not to go through the paperwork hassle (and I was retiring!!!) of moving my F.F.L. to Montana when I came here 8 years ago.
I have sold a lot of 222's in other words. Yeah the 223 outsold it but many folks still like and use the "Deuce"! I know I have a bunch of them.
Now back on to the long action Senderos a little more specifically - oops dinner bell rang!
I will add to this in a few hours!
Long live Remington
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG--so let me get this straight, you've not sold guns in Montana, and add to that you've not sold them in the last 8 years. Correct? Yep I'd be for guessing that you would know what sells in the retail settings during this day and age. Not!

So you sold guns in the past and for 25 years I might add, I gotta tell you this does not impress me either. The trends of the day are what is important, not what you saw 8 years ago and beyond. This means you sold guns fromm 1972 to 1997 roughly and this you think makes you qualified to say how inventory moves and what is asked for in this day and age? This business as you well know changes each and every year. New rounds new guns etc changes things a lot. New people, new ages of people etc. I mean good gracious we now are blessed with the 223 WSSM! Now trust me I'd personally rather a 222 than a 223 WSSM but I also know which one I'd sell more of. And that is not saying much as I believe that the WSSM is destined for an early retirement!

IMO you really need to be behind the counters (present day and not 8 years b4 this and in a retail setting not via a back door FFL). You would then be up on what is being asked for by the general population, and not a few gun loonies (like you and me). 8 years ago let along the 70's/80's or 90's means jack to what is going on in this day and age in terms of customer wants and buying habits.

Where were you living by the way when you were in the business? Just curious.

I can honestly say that there is a big difference between some looney buying a old #1 and or a 722 than there would be for a present day issue Sendero. Take the 264 WM not a real popular cal, a few requests once in a blue moon but not many. Put an old M70 Westerner on the rack and it'll move fairly fast if priced to market. But say rem/Ruger whatever starts bringing them out. Well you'd sell a few (quickly)but it would big time pale in comparison to the other rounds available. And then the others would be hanging out gathering dust and irritating the owners that you put them into inventory. They want guns that people want to buy, and they want to be able to turn that inventory now. And not 6 months or a year from now.
I mean you stick a old Safari pencil tube in 284 on a shelf and it will once again if priced right and it will move out now! But take and put a bunch of Remchesters on the wall in 284 and you'll take and sell a few to the old school looney's (one to me most likely...grins) but the the most of them would remain untouched and would collect dust and get dinged up. Over time they would have enough shop wear on them that you would need to red tag them to get them to move on. And then they finally would sell because someone wanted a deal not because they'd be waiting desperately for that cal.

I am not saying that a few deuces couldn't be sold. I'd be willing to bet though that there would be a quick run on them, and then the buggers would be on the racks a collecting dust.

Companies for the most part manufacture what sells (I believe). Do they always do it the way I would heck no. (I mean Win does not manufacture a 223 any more, what kind of a commie company would do something like that). One thing I've found over the years is that you need to market to the general public and not off of emotions. Marketing is not really rocket science, I was in the restaurant business for 25 years. Oversaw a bunch of units and I quickly learned that to be able to things in a cost effective manner you had to market to the general public. Not to my/our emotions, and not to what a fw people would want. Gun business is no different VG. They have to make what sells and what moves. I'd say that the fact that Rem has not made a deuce for what, I think you said 15 years should tell you something. If it would sell in manner that would behove them then they would deliver it! Do I believe that they are a bunch of rocket scientists in terms of what sells and what doesn't. No I don't but I do not think they are any dummies either.

Yeah I was only in the business for a whole 3 years. Big deal, I don't see that you've been in the business over the last 8 years. I would honestly be more inclined to believe the fella that has been in the game selling lately than the one who is retired from the game. (You've not even been on the bench these last 3 years you've been a spectator) Thats just the way I am. But I feel a fella in the trenches for the last 3 years is gonna have a heck of a lot better idea of what the public is asking for. Now the fella who has been driving around and checking out the shops is really at an disadvantage when it comes to knowing what the people are asking for day in and day out. Oh he can guess and speculate but that is it. His group of influence may want and like a deuce but in the real world that has nothing to do what numbers could be sold. Unless you are behind that counter 365 a year you've got a hunch what would sell, you've got a guess what would sell. But realistically you have know idea of what is being asked for on a day to day basis.

You take the average (and that is what you must market and inventory to-the masses not the exception) Montana/Idaho where ever fella. Do you want that rifle in a 222 or a 223/204 or a 22/250. For the most part your're either gonna get a WTF look or a what the heck is a 222 anyway? And why in the #@#@ would I want that instead of these others? They may pull out a chart or a load book and look it up and then they would say you gotta be kidding!

I'd be willing to make a good fun wager with you if Rem was able to see the light and do it VG's way and bring out the 222. Say they brought out the 222 and the 204 and the 223 and the old Varminter in the same gun. I'd be more than willing to bet that the 222 would move a couple to the looneys. But that the masses would buy the others at a staggering rate comparitively so. I don't know 100 to 1 who knows 4 sure (I know we'll never cause it aint gonna happen) but the 222 would for the most part be a non issue over the course of the year.

When I worked at Scheels we had sales history's that went back a long time. For what it is worth we went off present trends and not what was sold 8 years ago. Nor did we order off what the occaisional looney would want. A gun like the Sendero's didn't make our #1 list let alone the #2. Did we keep a couple around, yeah we did but they moved very slowly. The skinny tubes will outsell the heavies at a landslide difference. At least that is the way it's been the last 3 years.

Lastly what the heck does all this mean. I don't know it sounds like Rem doesn't make a gun anymore that you feel like they should.

I'd be 4 guessing they would have a bit better idea of sales than you would. But then again you drive around to shops throughout the west and notice that the guns that was there the trip b4 isn't there anymore.

I'd be for guessing that a fella that's not sold guns in the Montana market has no idea of what moves and what sits and collects dust. Nor would I expect him to have any ideas of how many days those guns are around verses other guns.

I'd be for guessing that a fella that sold guns 8 years ago would not have much of an idea of what is being asked for on a day to day basis in the retail world of today. Even if you had sold them in the Montana market 8 years ago and for the previous 25 prior to that I would not expect you to have much of an idea of what the public asks for on a day to day basis. And what you can afford to inventory.

Were you working those years back when, in a retail shop or out of the back door FFL type of deal. Because there is a vast difference here for sure, in the type of customer.

Hey I am tired of this I am sure you will resond and so be it. We must be a couple of cabin fevered Montanans to sit and argue like a couple of old hens any way.

I'd be glad to meet you, when you get to Boze. Feel free to PM me a couple of days b4 you arrive and we can set a meet. Then we can cuss and discuss what you saw when you were in the busness 8 years ago and I can give you some insite of what I've seen over the last 3 years.

We could trade many many stories about the jazzbo's that we ran into in our days behind the counter. I've always said that gun people were the most arrogant and ignorant group out there. The vehicle people and the horse people say no and that they deal with the "experts" also.

Later there VG, fire away and enjoy your eve.
Just b4 dark I looked out at the Bridgers and the were frosted. Man I love this time of year!

MD

For what its worth I too have some retail experience (20+ years) and except for a couple of really stupid decisions by various companies over the years, which usually were corrected fairly quickly, products that sell stay. The stuff that doesn’t sell, goes. Plain and simple.

While I am a proponent of Remington’s various stupid decisions, most of them can be attributed to dollars.

The 788’s were discontinued because they were cutting into the sales of the 700.
The 504 is cheaper to manufacture than previous models.
The 88 was too expensive to produce.
On and on and on.

While I will agree most older Senderos were generally quite accurate, some of the later production models were plagued with Accuracy Intermittent Mediocrity Syndrome (AIMS). Simply put they wouldn’t always hit what you aimed at.

When you have a rifle that retails for over a thousand dollars, it needs to shoot good AND look good. You can still buy through the custom shop rifles that are clones of the Senderos, as far as I know.

Or you could just buy a Savage Model 12…

Mark Dobrenski: I am back! I got an invite from a Hunting partner to go to the local football game here in Dillon, Montana (in the lightning!). Dillon was playing Stevensville, Montana (thats the town where they make some kind of popular HIGH PRICED Varmint Rifles MANY of which are offered in 222 Remington by the way - isn't it!!!). Both teams were 3 wins and 0 losses before tonights game!
Dillon won handily 42 to 6! Good for the local boys!
The lightning and thunder lasted all through the game but the nearest bolts were 15 miles away.
Normally I would be out Hunting the fall Black Bear season and/or the Archery Elk season but I am still lame and swollen from my recent Rattle Snake bite. My afflicted foot will go in my Sorel pack boots but still will not fit in my Antelope Hunting boots! I am beginning to worry as I only have 16 more days til I begin Antelope Hunting with my keenly accurate Remington 700 SENDERO in caliber 270 Winchester!
Anyway I will try and respond to your "posting" (dancing around the issue and my direct questions would probably be a more accurate description - than posting!).
So lets get it straight Mark you USED to work for 3 years at Bob Wards and/or Scheels?
Let me be more direct!
You no longer work at a store with guns on a rack? Is that correct?
If you do still work at a gunstore - are there any Senderos still unsold and sitting on that stores rack?
I will REITERATE for you very plainly Mark! I have seen a lot of heavy barrel Remingtons sell from an awful lot of store shelves!
I bought mine a little over 3 years ago and I paid under $600.00 for it! I consider those less than $600.00 to be some of the best dollars I have ever spent on a Rifle!
I will not go over again all the features and accuracy and dependability that this Rifle continues to display. Re-read my other posts on its attributes if you wish.
You refer a lot to Gunshop, Gunshow and Sporting Goods "customers" as loonies and "jazzbos"!
I think a better term might be CUSTOMER!
Your repeated references to "loonies" is easily blown out of the water.
My good friend Dan buys a lot of Remingtons - some he resells for a profit. He loves 222 Remingtons by the way - in all models. He is a much decorated Viet Nam War veteran, he was shot down three times (helicopter), has worked for the U.S.F.S. as a pilot and has worked for other Federal Agencies. He is now employed in the military section of Boeing Airplane Company. Looney - I think not! He is a high volume Firearms customer! I know hundreds of gun enthusiasts just like him. None of which are loonies. I have seen people of suspect intelligence and difficult personalities in gun shops etc. But that situation is duplicated in every type retail store. Thats life!
Oh and by the way I am not looney! I retired while still in my 40's! My wife and I ran a succesful business for more than 20 years and sold it for a profit! I seldom if ever loose money on my arms investments and indeed have a reputation that is widespread and often called upon by acquaintances for advice regarding purchases.
You appear intent on berating my experiences and observations - do so if you must but I stand by my experiences and observations throughout the west regarding firearms!
Nothing you have posted even comes close to convincing me that Remington lost money or would lose money if they brought out or still produced SOME Senderos or a heavy barreled offering in 222 Remington!
Years ago (1976 according to my loading log) I bought a Ruger Model 77 Varmint in caliber 7mm Remington Express (early version/name of the 280 Remington!). I used this Rifle for quite a number of years. When I did put it up for sale it lasted ONE DAY! Maybe there are lots of folks interested in Sendero like Rifles?
Visualize a heavy barrel 280 Remington in a factory Rifle today! I know many folks (none of whom I consider loonies!) that would give that Rifle a go!
Fellas over in Australia are even interested in Sendero's it seems Mark!
You diverge into 264 Winchester Magnum land - I don't know why - but you did. A heavy barrelled 264 Winchester Magnum - some folks would give that a go I am sure but probaly not as many that would go after a 270 or a 280.
But my point was and is I do not think Remington lost a dime selling their long action Senderos! If you have proof otherwise I would like to hear it!
Again, I ask, are there any new unsold Remington Senderos sitting on a gun rack somewhere in Bozeman, Montana???
Or were there some when you last worked "365 days a year" (?) behind some gun counter?
I must also add that the Bob Ward chain of sporting goods stores has had chances to sell me Rifles and other guns for at least 20 years! I have NEVER bought a gun from them! And that is saying something! I buy guns literally at the drop of the "good deal hat"! I have been going in Bob Ward stores for 20+ years now and I have never seen what I thought was a good deal on a Rifle or a gun that interested me. They are known for high prices and poor selection anymore (on guns)!
Scheels is a nifty sport shop chain and I hope to get into one again in about 14 days (billings)!
Do you commute by the way to Scheels in Billings from Bozeman there (142 miles each way!) or do you commute to the Great Falls store (184 miles each way) those "365 days a year"?
Yeah I sold guns out of my garage and from various Gunshows. I really enjoyed and learned a lot from those years. I was proud of the money I earned doing that. I see no need to apologize for that. I sold quite a number of Guns during the years I was Federally licensed!
Nor Mark - do I think of myself or my gun hobby acquaintances as jazzbos! What's that about? I am getting the impression that you have a negativity about the folks that come (or came) into your places of work!
Is that accurate?
And I again ask in this posting Mark, how would Remington loose money by offering another caliber (222 Remington lets say) in Models they already have in production? I enumerated those models available in my above posting? Are reamers that expensive? No they are not?
I invite you to get out and around some Mark. My good friend Louie bought a used Remington 700 Varminter in 222 Remington at a gunshow on the west coast a couple years ago. He paid over $200.00 more than that Rifle sold for when it was new! Now, pooh-pooh that if you want but if he would not have bought it - I would have! Neither of us are "jazzbo's"! And I did offer to pay him a reward of $25.00 more than he paid for it just for him spying that Rifle come into that Gunshow before I did. He would not take the "free money". I was not the only "customer" (not a "loonie or a jazzbo") that offered him more than he paid for it on that day alone!
The long action Senderos that I have seen offered for resale at Gunshows and Gunshops do move quickly Mark! If you think its impossible for me to obsevre that "phenomenon" then thats your problem! I have seen it plenty of times and stand by my explicit contention that Remington would not loose money by building and selling some of these Rifles every year. In calibers like 25/06 Remington, 270 Winchester, 7mm RUM, 7mm Remington Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum, 300 Remington Ultra Magnum and a few others.
Its not like they would have to develop a new action or a new caliber. They have the tech and they have the stocks and they have reamers - sheesh it seems like they would enhance their sales a tad with my ideas!
I like heavy long barreled Rifles and I like them in calibers from 22 on up through 28!
I am sure I am not alone in that interest!
You are right in that Remington SHOULD have a valid reason to discontinue OR to begin production of any arm! In this case I think Remington made a mistake in not offering the 222 Remington in some of its heavy barrel offerings and for apparently discontinuing the Sendero line. I will let you know if they get back to me regarding those things.
I will be in Great Falls on Sunday (September 25th) for the Gusnhow and doing the Costco, Home Depot thing (along with all the gusntores!) that next week in Bozeman - not sure which day!
I do SO want to see a new unfired Sendero on a shelf somewhere!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Dale,

YOU know good and well Remington's suck.. especially their varmint rifles...

I have a VLS and VSS in 223, and every time I go to the range all I have in the target at less than 200 yds, seem to be one 30/06 sized hole and that is it!!!!!

And I am not even shooting a 30/06.. I am shooting a 223!... So my Remington Rifles can't even figure out the right sized hole to put in the target! 30 cal hole at 200 yds, out of a 22 caliber....What the heck is with that???????

I will NEVER EVER buy another Remington in 223!!!
( these two are doing just fine!)

cheers
seafire

Top of the morn to you VG, glad to see you guys beat Stevensville. The cats play NDSU today, I'm not gonna go but it should be a good game. NSDU has a solid program.

Hey a couple of quick things and I gotta go to work. First off you know from my e-mail to you the other day about the 788's that I am not in retail any more.

Now a heavy tube 280 you say, well a couple would be sold. But by and large it isn't gonna happen for that round. I mean the round is basically a non issue in terms of day to day sales in hunting rifles. A hvy 280 would not do a thing for them. Not to say it wouldn't be fun, being the looney I am I would have to AI the thing, or punch it tow 7 Mashburn Super. But that is me and I am a looney. I am not the general day to day gun buyer. The meat and potatoes fella if you get the drift I am not. Nor are you or.

Now about the Looney's, you have not read much of Barnesses have you? A gun looney is meant as a gun nut a gun crank. You know someone that would shoot a 6/06 instead of a 25/06. He would shoot a 7 Mashburn Super instead of a STW (this is me). He would also take and buy a long heavy tubed 270 when most would not (this is you). And like your friend Louie he appears to be another gun looney as well. It is a term meant to say the people are hard cores. They do some extreme kind of stuff and not what the nor would do. I mean most of the guys here in our state are not gonna have any interest in things like 222's, wildcats and heavy barreled 270's.

Jazzbo's is a term from Askins, it relates to those that don't have much experience(but believe they do and talk like they do).
Those who have read a lot but in the true world of hunting have only shot 5 deer and one sickly cow elk.

The looney's term is about the hard cores,not about the nut cases of the world. Lets not try and make this something that it isn't.

Negativeity, nope I don't think I was. I loved the business, had an offer yesterday from a big outfit here in town to help them out for a while. Each and every time I got into the shop he asks me to go to work for him. Why, well its not because I had an attitude with my customers. It is because I am good with people, and I truly love the world of guns. I more so love working with the newbies and the Looney's than others. The jazzbo's can certainly start to wear on you.

As to Bob Wards I am darn proud of the work I did there for them. The #'s were excellent in terms of sales and growth. Make no doubt about it. Otherwise why would the competition be for trying to steal me away? Do I agree with the way Bob Wards runs their company, not in all respects no. But then again it is their company and not mine. And they are and have been and will continue to be quite successful! As for pricing you state that they are the high priced shop around. I would argue that you've not done much for price shopping around. Go to Butte, Msla,Boze, Helena and Hamilton and see what they match up for. I think you'll be quite amazed. This is a very competitive world, they can not get away with being the high dogs. You think that they could survive being in Msla with Sportsmans W being there if they were the high ones? Do you think that the Boze shop could get away with prices on a day to day basis higher than YGS? Nope it is not true, end of story. If they annoy you so much why after 20 years do you still go there?

Now Scheels, is a very well run organization and I stil have a few ties with them. But to say that they are the inexpensive ones in their markets is not quite true either. Did we price shop others, yep all the time and on a 1/4ly basis for the most part. Some things we would beat the competition at and some we would beat them.

By the way when I said 365 days a year it was meant as I did it as a full time profession. I kind of thought you would of understood that. Sorry if I was not clear enough. I was saying that I was there day in and day out. I wasn't driving around from shop to shop and judging what was moving based off of what I saw in my travels. I also was doing it full time where as I can see that you did it for 25 years and that the last time you were in the business was 8 years ago. I also would kind of guess (not assume...grins) that you had a full time job and had an FFL and sold guns out of your house to make a couple of bucks here and there on the side.

Why is there not a bunch of Sendero's on the rack waiting to be sold. Well it aint because they all just got sold. It is because darn few request were made. Those that asked for them generally knew what they wanted and came in and we ordered it for them. Why would we inventory a rifle that is gonna sit on the shelf and wait for a buyer. And with rifles like this it would take quite a while. Mean time you have money tied up into that rifle and you are losing some profits by having that money sit there.

They are simply not on the shelves because they sold very poorly and slowly and why should we warehoue them when it is just a phone call away to get them here. Whence we had a buyer. Now if they were a item in demand you can bet that they would of been on the shelf. If it was an item we could move in 6 weeks to 18 weeks at most you bet they would of been on the shelves.

Personally I like the Sendero's, but I don't make the decisions for Rem as to what should be in the catalog. You can bet though that the people making those decisions take a long hard look at it b4 making the move to drop a product. Now do they call VG from Dillon and ask him, nope they don't. Do they call the gun shop guy and ask him (me) nope they don't. But you can bet that they look at their sales and what moves and what doesn't. And that is for sure a better indicator than what you/or I think they are.

Heck I was the one the other day that posed the question of why didn't they make it in an 06. Now nobody but a looney would ask a question like that. Would I buy one, maybe but most likely not. Reason is that I can take one of my rifles that I already have set up, and have a Schneider put on it for less than buying a new one.

Would Rem lose $ by doing a 222 who knows and who cares. I do know this and that it is gonna be a,lot cheaper for them to just keep selling and making what they already do than to do a short run of 222's.

You commented on Coopper and I and another fella are gonna go and have another look at one I fell in love with yesterday. Man it feels great, it is in a 6x45. I can't wait for them to do repeaters! Speaking of this Cooper have you been to the Westley Richard shop here?

Lastly about my comment about the 264 it was meant to say that if an old M70 hit the used rack. If it was priced right it would not stick around long. Now if Rem or Win or whoever deceided to bring them out on a day to day basis a few would sell. But, then very quickly their sales would die off and they would be sitting around waiting for someone to take them home.

I was trying to say that your analogy of the 722 and the #1B isn't true to what the market would handle. Guns like those are in demand with a sellect few, not the general buying public. If you put the 222 in production again it would sell a few right away, but then it would die off quickly and they would leave the catalog quickly once again. It is not a round that is gonna be able to sustain itself.

Man I am tired and gotta run you have a super day and let me know when you're gonna hit Boze. I'll be more than glad to get together with you and us two gun looneys can work this out. And for Gods sake we would spare the rest of this forum having to listen to us bitch back and forth!

Make it your best day

Mark D

Gotta agree 100% with Mark's post.

Also gotta add that probably 90%(+) of the average sales in Montana are made up of the 22lr, 223, 22-250, 243, 25-06, 270, 7mm RM, 308, 30-06, 300 WM. Dat's it. The 270 and 300 WSM's have had a good showing too. The rest is stuff for the rifle loonies. That stuff just doesn't move.

I find it amusing to suggest that the marketing folks at the Big Three don't know their markets... that's laughable. While it could be argued they don't know much about what rifle loonies want, they do know what the majority of NASCAR america wants and they do KNOW the numbers.

Arguing you know what the public in MT wants after having hawked firearms out your back door in Caifornia (or wherever) vs. a professinal in the business here is unbelievable.

In the debates offered here I believe it can be seen that there are niche markets in the firearms business, some filled and maybe some not so well filled. Small production runs evidenced by Remington's Classic series seem to sell. Cooper Firearms appears to be doing well also.

However, as Brad very well pointed out, "NASCAR America" is where the money made. I must admit that my understanding of "NASCAR America" is a bit short.

Just chalk me up in the loonie category.

quote:

I must admit that my understanding of "NASCAR America" is a bit short.

LOL, me too... like the guy said though, "no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public!"

Hey VG it looks like your ship may of come in, take a look in the classifieds(here). X-mas has come early or you, a 722/222.

Mark D

ps if you get it you gotta let me drive down to Dillon (my favorite Mt town by the way) and bloody it in for you. Perhaps we could call it a peace offering.......

From the Remington J-locks thread:

quote:

Originally posted by 7Rumloader:
…I said that I didn't think the sendero was in Rem lineup anymore to which he replied he hadn't heard of it being discontinued.

Hmmm I said and glanced at the price tag that nearly sent me into shock with a price of 899.99
I kindly handed him the rifle back and said thank you.

This is exactly why Remington has or WILL discontinue this model.
With a suggested retail price over $1000.00 they are not going to sell any to 7Rumloader or to me.

I would rather have TWO older 722’s or a really tricked out 700 for a lot less $$.

But you can spend your hard earned money any way you choose...

My comment above about Remington Senderos not selling comes straight from the PR manager there, Linda Powell.

BTW, for what it is worth, writing for outdoor/shooting "rags" is not lucrative. I just do it as a hobby because I like to write.

AAW wrote: "My comment above about Remington Senderos not selling comes straight from the PR manager there, Linda Powell."

AAW-I don't mean to come off sounding harsh or ultra-critical, but if you've been in the business long enough, you'd know that a generalized statement from a PR person is often the farthest thing from the truth. Sugar-coated statistics and biased "research data" are free-flowing around the industry. Actual comparative analysis is the only way to get at the truth, and the real numbers are seldom available without serious digging.

Remember, they are in public relations for one reason only, and that's to make their employer look as good as possible.

Okay, guys, my nickel... I am a member of the Houston Gun Collectors Association. Have done the gun shows, either as an attendee or a member, for about the last 20 years, ~15 of those years pretty seriously. I also make a significant number of other gun shows in Houston.
I have yet to see a .222 lying on a table. I just don't see them. In the last three years, I have bought both a .222 and a 6mm in BDL from individuals, and sold both. I am left-handed, and they weren't. I made significant profits on both rifles.
I don't believe big Green ever made a left handed short action in .222. That aggravates me!
As for the Senderos, I believe they were made for the stand hunting group, like the folks down here that that sit in the catclaw and mesquite in South Texas, waiting on Mr. Boone and Crockett. The rifles shoot very well, but they appealed to a very limited market, and as such, were not going to sell for all that long.
Most guys are going to buy one rifle to deer hunt, and when that one is bought they are through. And to me, the Senderos are too heavy to tote if hunting out in the west. Hence the Mountain Rifles, or the BDLS...
I just wish Remington offered a few more chamberings in left hand. I love my BDLs, and would give a pretty penny for one in trip deuce.

Call me a looney, I guess...

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Okay, guys, my nickel... I am a member of the Houston Gun Collectors Association. Have done the gun shows, either as an attendee or a member, for about the last 20 years, ~15 of those years pretty seriously. I also make a significant number of other gun shows in Houston.
I have yet to see a .222 lying on a table. I just don't see them. In the last three years, I have bought both a .222 and a 6mm in BDL from individuals, and sold both. I am left-handed, and they weren't. I made significant profits on both rifles.
I don't believe big Green ever made a left handed short action in .222. That aggravates me!
As for the Senderos, I believe they were made for the stand hunting group, like the folks down here that that sit in the catclaw and mesquite in South Texas, waiting on Mr. Boone and Crockett. The rifles shoot very well, but they appealed to a very limited market, and as such, were not going to sell for all that long.
Most guys are going to buy one rifle to deer hunt, and when that one is bought they are through. And to me, the Senderos are too heavy to tote if hunting out in the west. Hence the Mountain Rifles, or the BDLS...
I just wish Remington offered a few more chamberings in left hand. I love my BDLs, and would give a pretty penny for one in trip deuce.

Call me a looney, I guess...

Bobby:

Let me get this straight...you think Remington was making lots of money on Senderos but somehow decided to discontinue them? What, a conspiracy? Come on.

Look, I own my own business, and I can assure you that if certain products and services didn't sell, I would discontinue them.

Companies are the business of making money. They will sell whatever you and I will buy.

AnotherAZwriter-

Oh where but where did I EVER address Remington's sales, lack thereof, discontinuance of products, etc.???

And where in the world did you ever get "conspiracy?"

Please re-read my short and simple post.

In even simpler terms, what I told you is that you must take what a PR person tells you with a grain of salt and NOT interpret it as gospel.

Apparently you are quite confused as to who posted what, but I hope this clarifies things for you.

http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2...310/1001/NEWSREC0201

I love Remington but they may not be around to long?

AI22-250: Thats somber news there in the article you linked for us!!!
I wonder what caused the profound turn around from profit to loss there at Remington from the year 2,002 to 2,003???
I wonder if it was because they discontinued the Sendero's? LOL!
Anyway something changed significantly there at Remington that year to go from profit to loss? It would be interesting to know just what caused that!

Brad: Do you have information on Remington having to take back to the factory a whole bunch of Sendero's THAT DID NOT SELL?
I still contend that ALL the Senderos that hit ALL the store shelves SOLD!
If you have information on Sendero's that did not sell please advise. And when you do pass that on be sure and tell ME where they are now so I can do some wheeling and dealing in order to buy some of them!

And yes I still contend that the 222 Remington would sell if offered in the various heavy barrel offerings Remington does make as of now! I do not think they would lose any money on this venture and nothing anyone has posted here or anywhere else has proven that offering the 222 in these already offered Models would cause Remington to LOSE money!

Mark: Get after that sweet Rifle you are drooling over!
I cancelled my plans for the Great Falls Gunshow Sunday at the request of my neighbor. We instead got up real early and drove to a remote ranch near Roundup, Montana (300+ miles each way!) as my neighbor and Big Game Hunting partner needed "moral support" buying a front loading tractor! Anyway as we came home I nearly called you! We were about 5 or 6 miles east of Bozeman on I-90 and on the edge of the road as we sped by, was a freshly kilt (run over) Bobcat! And it was still in great shape (I remember and scrutinize all dead Varmints along side the roads as I travel for future reference!). Any way the carcass is at milepost 315 on the north edge of I-90. We were in the canyon there east of town. We were arguing if it was legal to pick up said Varmint (Fur Bearer!) and possess it! I wanted to stop and he wanted to keep going home! I did call another Varminter in Twin Bridges to retrieve the Cat, but he was out Elk Hunting!
It may still be there if you need a skull or know someone that might.
Saw incredible numbers of Antelope and Deer as we travelled the Musselshell! Stopped at the nifty little sport shop in Harlowtown to get the latest on Remingtons but they were closed (Sundays).
Yes if anyone has any information on Senderos sitting anywhere on shelves or on Remington having to take them back and melt them down into 870's or 597's please advise!

My reference to the "Sendero" like Ruger 77 I bought 30 years ago was food for thought to some of you! Remember that Rifle sold in one day when I decided to sell it many eyars later.
The heavy barrel long action "large caliber" Factory offering is not a new idea! Winchester offered them in the 1930's! Yeah theres a market for them, YES that market is somewhat limited, and NO I do not and have not contended that the heavy barrelled "Sendero" like Rifles would outsell the normal sporter Hunting Rifles (or the 22 Long Rifles! - good gawd sakes Brad can you stick to one subject at a time, even?) but they did sell!

As a funny aside I am still not able to wear my boots even for a short time due to the swelling from my now 3+ week old Rattlesnake bite. We were driving w/b on Montana Highway 12 between Harlowtown and Shawmut and I am seeing SO many Antelope and Deer that when I started seeing the distinctive green Block Management (feel free to Hunt) signs on the stretch near mile 139 Highway 12 that I had to stop and get the phone number of the ranch from Block Management
sign. Well its hot and its snake country and I have my velcro sneakers on and I proceed to the fenceline with my pencil in one hand and my map in the other. I am surveying the ground as best I can for - you know whats - and I step on the head of a Rattlesnake! I see they body that is perfectly camoflaged roll slightly on the ground! I speed (not jumped or leaped!) straight up in the air from a huge shot of adrenaline that eventually caused me a headache. Now I am so high in the air and my brain is working so fast that I have time to ponder the fact that I am going straight up in the air and eventually I am coming straight down - and what is straight under me - yeah the Rattlesnake! I turn sick in the air! And I am looking down and coming down and in a panic. I wished my partner had his camera on me for laughs and giggles later, I am thinking, and I even had time (while still flying) to think now that last thought was a stupid one! Anyway I lite upon the snake again and my next flight (pounce?) took me away from the dreaded vermin! I am on the far side of the Rattler from our vehicle and my partner is looking at me strangely! I yell SNAKE! Ron got his T/C Contender in 7/30 Waters and we find the snake still in the same spot I had first encountered it at. My adrenaline and consternation had all been for naught as someone had run the head of this snake over recently (that day!) with a truck as they went through the gate where the Block Management sign was hung!
Adrenaline cures hunger pangs I found out. I had been quite hungry and intent upon eating in Harlowtown before the snake incident but we drove right on through Harlowtown without eating!
I am now both recoil shy and Rattlesnake shy!

Anyway I hope Remington can overcome the profit problem (maybe it was the Sendero's that caused that - but I do not think so?) and stay in business for another 150 years or so (Remington Laser Arms Company - that sounds like a nice futuristic thought!).

Mark: No I am not bitching at you I am voicing an opposing (and I contend learned and experienced) opinion. I also in a positive way had a critical suggestion for the folks at Remington. I stand by those suggestions.
I think a number of Senderos in a number of calibers would sell every year.
Yeah, also this, someone above suggested (and I have previously also) that some of you Remington 222 naysayers ought to get out a little more often and actually SEE what happens when a factory Remington 700 Varminter in 222 Remington caliber hits a Gunshow!
As a positive suggestion in that regard I am willing to take my OWN Remington 700 Varmint Model in 222 Remington to a gunshow sometime, when any of you "doubting Thomas's" can make the Gunshow I am at! I will bet any of you a dinner that the Remington 700 Varmint in 222 Remington will be picked up, pawed over, offers made for than any other Gun at that show! Yep I will buy you dinner if there is a more fondled handled and drooled on gun at that show the the 222 Varminter!
Any takers on that bet?
I of course will price my prized Remington 700 Varminter in 222 Remington so high it won't sell! Never know when I could get another one.
Bard: I am especially awaiting your answers to my direct questions before I have to point out your childlike immaturity, and ability only to attempt personal attacks and your lacking and lack luster obfuscations - AGAIN! Let me know please HOW MANY SENDERO'S were, melted down or are still sitting on shelves somewhere?
Come up with something BOY! Anything!

Long live Remington
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
".....and the WSSM's????? Somebody show me a reason to pick a .223 WSSM over a 22-250 or a Swift or a .243WSSM over .243Win or 6mmRem and they're none of you out there who can give a solid half ass reasonable argument for a .25WSSM over a solid performing(GOD'S gift to rifledom) 25-06!!!"

Browning and Winchester rifles in WSSM are being dumped on the Australian market at the moment. At a dealers yesterday, and they can be had for 40% of what they were asking a few months back. And even at give away prices, no one wants them.

I was looking at the new Remingtons, the VSSF II and VSF, as well as the XCR. I liked the stocks on the VS's but wasn't taken with the shiny finish on the VSSF. The VSF in 308 would really appeal, though it would be hard to explain to the boss as I've already got an LTR in 308. I'm thinking very hard about an XCR in 35 Whelen.

Varmintboy, you da man in all thing's... you know and see all and I bow to your superior intelligence and understanding in all things that go bang... but I believe you're off your meds again!

Brad: Typical small man, immature boy response!
I kind of was been expecting that sort of meaningless and valueless posting from you!
Meds? I take no prescription drug regimen what so ever - never have.
Maybe YOU could look into such a remedy for your lack of mental acuity and maturity there Brad?
Just a thought.
Have any answers to the topical questions I posed to you, YET, Brad?
I have to admit I did get a kick (laugh) out of your observation here on this centerfire oriented posting where you try to berate me somehow for overlooking how well the 22 L.R. sells here in Montana!?!?
Great stuff you come up with there - mighty mouse!
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy