I have alwasy Bought Remington and have never been dissaponited. The one day I wanted to give a WSSM a try and this is why I will only buy Remingtio0n in the future.

I bought a new in the box mod 70 .25 wssm. for whiteail and other small game. On my first trip to the range I brought some win factory loads 100gr supreme. When I fired them the bolt was difficult to lift the handle but I continued to zero the scope and the shoot some groups. This gun shot worst than any gun I have ever fired. 3-4 inches at 100 yards was the best group. so I checked the scope cleaned the gun and tried again another day the results were tyhe same. I could not belive my results so I took the gun to my gunsmith and had him remount the scope and then took the gun to a local guy that makes realy good custom ammo and left it with him to work up a load,after a few days He called me and said to come pick up my rifle that he could not make it shoot. I called winchester and the service people treated me like I was a idoit and were no help.Just told me to send them the rifle.
I talked to my gunsmith he said that in his experince that they would send the gun back and say there was nothing wrong with it. I belive Him after my conservation.
I'm stuck with a gun that I can't feal good about selling so I guese I'll let Kevin Weaver rebarrel and square my action. around $600.
Has anyone else had thes problemes with winchester.

Dr B

My one and only Winchester was a stainless model 70. It refused to shoot better than 2 inches even after a custom trigger job, glass bedding and pay almost 200 bucks to have the action blueprinted and rechambered. I sold it. But I been told the chrome moly barrels do better.

Snowwolfe & Dr B: I agonize for you guys and the troubles you went through with your Winchester Rifles!
Drat!
I have not bought a new Model 70 Winchester since about 1966!
I own a bunch of the old pre-64 Model 70's and the ones I shoot are all "gifted" accuracy wise!
I have several pre-64 Model 70's that I use for Varminting. Most are in caliber 243 Winchester (Varmint Models) and I have some custom Rifles built on pre-64 Model 70 actions. Most notable of these is a wonderfully accurate heavy barrelled Varmint style Rifle in caliber 240 Weatherby! Its a gem. Its a wonderfully strong, accurate and safe - let me repeat SAFE Rifle. I consider the pre-64 Model 70 to be one of the safest to handle and Hunt with Rifles EVER made!
I seldom miss a chance to regale the virtues of these strong and safe old Model 70's!
I bought some post 64 Model 70's in various calibers and I eventually gave one to my older brother upon his return home from his second tour in Viet Nam. It was a 270 Winchester calibered sporter and shot rather well with the smallish powered Redfield scope I mounted on it. He still has that Rifle. It works and thats about as far as I am impressed with it.
I also bought over the years several Model 70's in caliber 225 Winchester but alas I never fired any of them - I just "horse traded" them.
My good friend Armand (the "King" of Varmint Rifles!) of the Puget Sound region still "believes" in the Winchester line of heavy barrelled offerings to this day! He is a machinist though and if any trouble comes up with them - he can fix them himself.
In short I do not buy them (the Winchesters) anymore as I am mainly still "smarting" from what the Winchester corporation did to itself back in 1964!
Long live Winchester!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Why I Buy Remington - Reason #26!
I just returned from double checking the sight-in of another one of my favorite Remington Antelope/Mule Deer/Coyote Rifles!
This Rifle is one that I have been "ignoring" a bit to much lately!
Its a factory stock Remington 700 VLS in caliber 260 Remington! This is the laminated stock, blued barrel and action, 26" heavy barrel Varminter!
I have liked this Rifle since day one of my owning it!
It has a Leupold 6.5x20 variable scope with Du-plex crosshairs (my favorite reticle!) and I did do a trigger job on it several years ago!
This Rifle has been sitting for three years without being shot according to my loading log! So I grabbed some ammo and beat feet to my friends private range! The wind was a little bit more pronounced than I like to shoot in but this was not a load development session but just to verify where the P.O.I. is these days!
You guessed it! It was right on after three years of sitting with oil (Break Free) in its clean barrel!
Not only was it right on for sight in, the three shot group I fired with it in blustery and buffeting winds measured .544"!
The reason I got this Rifle out and checked the sight in is that I am going on this major Antelope/Varmint Safari in about 10 days and the 3 fellows I am Hunting with have killed a total of 2 Antelope - they are all new to Antelope Hunting and this basic, safe, wonderfully accurate Remington 700 will be easy for any one of these 3 novices to handle - if need be. All are familiar with Remington 700's and if they have trouble with their "Deer/Elk" Rifles out on the Antelope prairies then I will hand them this rig! My custom 240 Weatherby may just get left at home - I have about decided!
For holding point of aim from Hunt to Hunt, changing condition to changing condition and year to year, the laminates and the fiberglass stocks simply are the best choice I have concluded!
This Remington 700 VLS having two years of sitting and another year before that for its last sight-in and use just makes my point again, for both Remington and for laminated stocks both being the cats meow!
By the way I am using the Nosler 100 gr. Ballistic Tips in this 260 Remington!
I may even plunk a few Prairie Dogs after we get done Antelope and Coyote Hunting!
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I for one am less than enamored with Big Green. Most of my rifles are Remingtons, mainly from the '80s. All are variations on the model 700, either BDLs or Classics and very accurate. My last three however have required glass bedding, barrel floating and trigger work to equal the performance of my earlier Remingtons, at a cost of around $250. My latest one is a BDL in .25-06 and in spite of the same improvements does not want to better 1" groups. Most groups are 2 to 2 1/2". I expect better because I'm used to better. Possibly Remington is a victim of their own previous performance. I don't plan on buying an expensive rifle, then spending 3 years to make it shoot accurately. If I send it back Remington will only say it's within reasonable accuracy standards. They won't get any more of my money. Just one mans opinion. Apparently quite a few shooters share it. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Cal Sibley: "My" latest Remington in 25/06 I bought for my son to use on Big Game Hunting. It is the Model 700 SS/DBM Rifle. I did a trigger job on it, mounted a first class scope on it (Leupold 4.5x14!) and then went and bought some Remington factory ammo for the son to get familiar with the Rifle!
The Rifle shoots the Remington factory ammo so well I went and bought some more of it! That Rifle has killed three Mule Deer and three Antelope so far!
It shoots five shot groups under one inch at 100 yards WITH FACTORY AMMUNITION!
It has received no other alteration than the trigger job I did on it!
I disagree whole heartidly on your blanket condemnation of Remington and know very few experienced Riflemen who share your opinion (actually NONE!).
One local here in SW Montana bought a Remington 700 in 338 Remington Ultra Magnum a while back. He bemoaned the gun till we got tired of listening to him! Poor accuracy was his major complaint!
Eventually he had a muzzle brake attached to his factory barrel and guess what! His "accuracy" improved to the point he raves about the gun now! And he has killed two Bull Elk with it and is up in the Pioneer Mountains Hunting Mt. Goat with it right now!
I will relay here again for those that may not have seen my frequent postings regarding Remington bolt action Rifles accuracy! I have bought at least two dozen Remington bolt action Rifles in the last 10 - 12 years and I have obtained excellent accuracy with EVERY one of them!
Not one exception!
And I have not bedded or crowned or fiddle farted with any of them - other than trigger jobs!
I could easily list the Rifles, their calibers and the numbers of each caliber I have purchased during this time but I have done that before!
I won't duplicate it now!
The 270 Sendero and the 260 VLS are just two of these Remingtons I have been so happy with!
And I know dozens of other guys who like Remingtons as much as I do!
I appreciate your posting the troubles you had with your latest Remington but I think that is a rare occurrence!
I will gladly let you shoot "my" 25/06 with factory ammo Cal! Its a sweetheart!
I ran into a fella last week that bought the cheapest 204 Ruger that Remington makes! I forget its exact Model designation (Model 700 El Cheapo?) and he was getting five shot 3/4" groups at 100 yards - with a cheap scope and Hornady factory ammunition! I would be surprised if he was sophisticated enough to have done a trigger job on it! I did not inquire about that.
I have helped two fellows this summer set up Remington Rifles one in 223 and one in 243. Both guys are youngish and enthusiastic but not sophisticated Riflemen by any stretch! Both of those Rifles were problem free and pleasingly accurate - again with factory ammo!
My good friend Dan just drove 180 miles out in Washington state to buy a Remington Rifle I had discovered in the basement of a Gunshop out his way! It was the Remington 700 Classic in caliber 221 Remington Fireball (N.I.B.)! He is not going to shoot it - he is going to resell it - for a profit!
Yes the reasle value of Remington Rifles is as good as OR BETTTER than any other mass produced factory Rifle! And the Remingtons will resell quicker and easier than the other factory Rifles! Weatherby, Sako, Savage, Winchester, Ruger all inclusive!
I think Remingtons (although not perfect!) are still a great investment!
How about those Sakos blowing up???
Who wants to be seen with a savage?
Ruger - LOL - hit or miss accuracy built into those BIG TIME. Pleasing to look at though!
Winchester - a host of intermittent problems of all kinds with these - in so much as I won't even consider buying them anymore!
Weatherby's - WAY over priced for what you get there!
Tikkas - clubby and fumbly with poor aesthetics (or esthetics - both are correct in this case)!
CZ's - accurate but high yuck factor and a fair number of complaints arising with them recently!
Marlins - Sorry no offerings in the bolt action high power centerfire arena.
Kimber - nice but PRICEY and I have seen a couple of these that were difficult to obtain accuracy with!
Dakotas - $3,500.00 - no thanks!
Blazers - UGLY!
Customs - in my opinion not worth the greater (MUCH, greater) expense involved for a Hunter, over a host of Remington Models that do the same for WAY less!
Maybe I should list the Remington Rifles I have
bought in the last 12 years or so and how they shoot?
If I wasn't getting up real early and going to a Gunshow tomorrow (Whitehall, Montana) and trying to trade off another blah shooting Ruger I would do it now!
Maybe tomorrow evening I will take the time, again, to list them and their accuracy!
Long live Remington - Americas Oldest Gunmaker!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:Yes the resale value of Remington Rifles is as good as OR BETTER than any other mass produced factory Rifle! And the Remingtons will resell quicker and easier than the other factory Rifles!

Having sold lots and lots of different used and new rifles for the last 3 years, I would tend to disagree with you. Used bolt action rifles in my neck of the woods pretty much sold in this order based on the time when they went on the shelf to when they went out the door:
1) Pre-’64 Winchesters, period. Any caliber, pretty much any condition. And they sold for ALOT of money. I actually had a list of guys to call when one came in the shop.

2) Any Weatherby bolt gun in any Weatherby Magnum caliber if in 90% or better condition. Especially the MKV German actions (although the wood is nicer on the Jap actioned guns IMHO) And they sold for ALOT of money, too. BTW, Weatherby is the only mass produced rifle that guarantees accuracy, and sends a target shot at the factory from the rifle you bought, as far as I know.

3) Any Savage bolt gun I could sell for $275-300. Especially if it was a 300WinMag or 7mmRemMag. Some of these guns only sell for $400 when new. Some for less than $400 new.

4) Remington 700’s, providing the gun was in “like new†condition (95% up) and a BDL or similar variant. And not too high priced as Remington fans around here at least, seem to want something for nothing. Probably because they know they will probably have to spend money on it to make it shoot-LOL.

And VarmintGuy, mentioning “Marlin†in this discussion is far worse than Mark D. mentioning 22LR gun sales earlier.
The only modern Marlin bolt guns are rimfires, right?

Just because you have had good “luck†(and I do mean luck) with the 20 or so Remington rifles you have bought in the last 12 years doesn’t really have any statistical backing when Remington produces thousands of weapons a year.

Unlike Dr. B’s experience, I have a Win Mod70 Classic in .338WinMag that shoots like a varmint rifle. 1 inch 5 shot groups @ 100 yards will get the job done.
I’ll find out in three weeks for sure…

VarmintGuy, I agree with most of the rest of your posting, especially the Kimber, Tikka, Blaser, etc. stuff. As it sounds like you prefer, I also prefer, traditional looking rifles.
None of that high tech crap that seems to be the fad now. Save that for AR’s and such.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
...(Cal) I disagree whole heartidly on your blanket condemnation of Remington and know very few experienced Riflemen who share your opinion (actually NONE!).

I know quite a few experienced rifleman (30+ years) that tend to agree with Cal.
It seems as though nowadays with Remington, you seldom get everything you pay for…

Sounds like that pension-plan hype is just a cover story for their financial woes.
Hmmmm?

EDIT: VarmintGuy, you must be feeling better as you are back to your old self again!
Glad to have you among the living!

When I was between real jobs this past year, I had the sorry pleasure of working behind the sporting goods counter of an oft-reviled major retailer. My tenure there lasted eight long months, during which time I was able to handle dozens of rifles from various manufaturers. My conclusion? Based on my inspection (without firing them), there isn't enough difference between the manufacturers to bother talking about.

The only CF rifles we had returned (to the best of my knowledge) were a Model 70 that came back (unfired) because the buyer didn't know the difference between .223 Rem and .223 WSSM, and two Weatherby Vanguards that were returned because the buyer (same guy) coundn't get .5 inch groups out of them.

Each manufacturer had it's problems, from poor fit and finish to loose scope mounts on the package guns to (honest to God) a front sight that fell of one of the display models. On balance, I thought the quality was, overall, pretty good for the price point in that the problem guns were comparatively rare.

We had seven people in the department. Three of us didn't know dick about firearms. One manufactured his knowledge as conversations evolved. The remaining three were pretty damn well informed. For the most part, we (with one exception) would tell someone that we just didn't know if we were asked a question we couldn't answer.

I can't vouch for any other mass-market retail outlet, but I can't imagine that this situation isn't fairly typical. If you want to talk to someone with detailed knowledge about the product lines, Wal-Mart, K-Mart and other such outlets aren't the place to do it. That isn't thier business model, especially when you consider that their markup on firearms is almost nothing. (An aside - people who think that the Sporting Goods guy at Wal-Mart only makes $6/hr are kidding themselves.)

A person who expects a gun expert at the sales counter at Wal-Mart can't be a whole lot smarter than the guy who can't answer his question. You get lucky sometimes, but you aren't paying for that service. It's as simple as that. AND, the least-informed sales person I encountered in that area worked not at Wally-World but at a specialty sporting goods retailer which I won't identify but which anyone in the Bozeman, Mt area can easily figure out (hint hint).

Buy Remington if you want. Or Winchester. Or Savage. Or Ruger. Or any one of the other brands. And if you want to believe that one company is way better and smarter than the rest, that's cool, too. Quality control is a dying art in the US, as is customer service.

RXM

quote:

Originally posted by rxmoore:
...Quality control is a dying art in the US, as is customer service.

RXM

BINGO!

Flippy: Yes I am perking up quite nicely - thank you! I was able to walk most all day today with little pain but some obvious swelling.
I took a BUBBLE BATH this evening - don't tell anyone in Montana that I did that please! But it felt good and the swelling of my one foot did subside somewhat!
Yes I am well aware of the folks at Marlin not even TRYING to compete with Remingtons fine bolt action centerfire offerings!
Flippy, in my comparisons of factory Rifles I should have been more clear that I was comparing CURRENTLY manufactured bolt action Rifles!
My beloved pre-64 Model 70 Winchester's are in a seperate league of their own value comparison wise - I agree! I often tell the story of the first Model 70 Winchester I collected! I paid just under $200.00 for it. I recently turned down $1,500.00 cash for it!
Yeah they were not included in my comparsion!
I saw a nifty little Remington 700 BDL in caliber 17 Remington at the Whitehall, Montana Gunshow today! The owner was asking $575.00 for it! I think new ones can be had for about that much with careful shopping! Anyway I watched that Rifle and the folks that perused it for several hours! More people picked up that Rifle and fondled it than ANY other currently produced Rifle in that show! And that Rifle was right across the aisle from a fella that had about 15 new in the box Kimbers in calibers from 204 Ruger on up through 308 Winchester. He also had several CZ Rifles in centerfire and rimfires as well!
I maybe should also make clear my contention regarding the Remington bolt actions being better "investments" there in my previous post.
I still contend and it is my experience that a regular guy who shops carefully for his bolt Rifle and buys a Remington will recoup a higher "percentage" of his money than with the other manufacturers I listed.
I stand by that! I have bought quite a number of Remington bolt guns in Model 700's, 788's, 40X's and the like that I later sold for more than I paid for them - in some cases a LOT more! yes remingtons can appreciate! Savages DON'T!
I ABSOLUTELY disagree with your contention regarding savage Rifles selling quicker than Remingtons! You are simply way off base with that cannard! You are wrong and I have seen that scenario play out so many times in so many venues that I am surprised you even burped that one up!
Remingtons resell MUCH quicker and with a MUCH high percentage of investment recouped over savages - period! To contend otherwise is laughable!
I do not know if you have been around many Gunshops lately but the savage folks are pricing their "stuff" (and thats as kind as I will be describing their Rifles!) real steep these days!
I agree and posted previously that Remington bolt action arms ARE NOT ALL PERFECTLY FINISHED! But for anyone to make the blanket statement that todays Remington bolt actions are not accurate is simply tripe, balderdash, untrue and baseless!
I have a WHOLE bunch of running proof to the contrary as well as a whole bunch of VERY close and very trusted friends that concur with me!
Another recent for instance - I mounted and boresighted a nice new scope on my neighbors Remington 700 Classic in caliber 35 Whelen tonight! I have seen this particular Remington Classic shoot three shot groups at 100 yards under 1.000" in size! Many times! And until tonight that Remington had a 4 power scope on it for its accurate range performance!
So I categorically contradict, disagree with and deny as truthful any blanket statements condeming the accuracy of todays Remington bolt action Rifles!
It simply aint so (to say that all or even most or even a lot of Remingtons are not accurate)!
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
I ABSOLUTELY disagree with your contention regarding savage Rifles selling quicker than Remingtons! You are simply way off base with that cannard! You are wrong and I have seen that scenario play out so many times in so many venues that I am surprised you even burped that one up!
I do not know if you have been around many Gunshops lately but the savage folks are pricing their "stuff" (and thats as kind as I will be describing their Rifles!) real steep these days!
I agree and posted previously that Remington bolt action arms ARE NOT ALL PERFECTLY FINISHED! But for anyone to make the blanket statement that todays Remington bolt actions are not accurate is simply tripe, balderdash, untrue and baseless!
VarmintGuy

The same can be said of the statement that all Remingtons are inherently accurate because they are Remingtons. Hogwash!

quote:

Originally posted by Flippy:
Having sold lots and lots of different used and new rifles for the last 3 years, I would tend to disagree with you. Used bolt action rifles in my neck of the woods pretty much sold in this order based on the time when they went on the shelf to when they went out the door…

I guess WORKING 40 hrs a week in a gunshop does not constitute “hanging around†one. I “hang around†a couple others also…

Model for model, type for type, Savage MSRPs are a lot less than comparable Remingtons. Individual shops can and do price guns any way they think they will sell, based on supply and demand.
If the price of Savage rifles is going up as you said, they must be selling or either Savage or the shops would have to drop their prices.

Remember VarmintGuy, I said “Used bolt action rifles in my neck of the woods," not your neck of the woods.

As always, your results may vary…


Oh, and I won't tell anybody you took a bubble bath...

Maybe Remington would do well to hire more machinists and gunsmiths and fewer bean counters and lawyers. My last 3 Remingtoins have required glass bedding the action, floating the barrel and trigger adjustments to shoot as well as my Remingtons of the '80s. That's an extra $250. on each rifle. Even with those after market alterations my latest one, a Rem. 700BDL in .25-06 won't shoot better than 1 1/4" (5 at 100yds). I think it's time to give Remington a rest and start looking more closely at CZ and Tikka. Remingtoin seems to have lost it. Maybe they're just victims of their own earlier success. I don't know for sure. They're not getting any more of my hard earned money. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Cal Sibley: And you stated that the 25/06 only shot that well (1 1/4") on somewhat rare occassions!
Thats not good enough to satisfy me either, but if you are saying that you got 4 Remington bolt action Rifles in a row that were that inaccurate - recently - then I have to verge myself onto the point of insulting you!
And that is not my intention with this question.
Are you shooting other Rifles currently where you are able to produce groups you are happy with?
What scope power are you using on these 4 recently purchased inaccurate Remingtons?
And if you are PAYING someone $250.00 to glass bed your Remington action, float your Remington barrel and adjust your Remington trigger then that is simply either the sign of someone to busy working to do it themselves (and thus can afford to pay someone to do these simple things!) or you are wealthy beyond worrying about these type things. In other words your complaint regarding spending more money on your latest Remingtons falls on deaf ears here! AND you are paying WAY to much for those simple services in the second place to boot!
In one short day I can (and have on many occassions) accomplished the feats you describe - for - next to nothing - a couple of bucks in materials, is all!
And if I can do those things ANYONE can do them!
I used to enjoy bedding and floating the barrels of my Rifles but that has not been neccessary for me to do in quite some time now! I still do trigger jobs on my Remingtons but that is the fault of lawyers not Remington.
Cal Sibley you are simply the unluckiest person I have EVER heard of when it comes to Remingtons.
I suspect - but of course can not prove that factors other than Remingtons inherent accuracy are affecting your posting.
I mean how else can it be explained - my buying 20+ Remington bolt guns and EASILY obtaining good to excellent accuracy with every single one of them and then you come along and profess you have had 4 clunkers in a row???
I personally know literally 100+ accuracy minded shooters, Varminters and Hunters who enjoy Remington bolt guns and have bought and used them enthusiastically and happily for varying amounts of time! NOT ONE of them - NONE - have purchased 4 clunker Remingtons in a row!
ZERO, ZILCH, NADA - NO one person I know has achieved what you profess!
Something is simply wrong with the odds of what you post, being the norm, there Cal!
I tend to find it VERY hard to believe what you are saying if I may be so blunt Cal!
Having said that and anticipating your retort please include in that retort - which recently purchased factory bolt action centerfire Rifles presently shoot better than your latest Remingtons - in your opinion.
And to further indulge me I would like to know why you think my recently purchased Remington bolt Rifles are shooting (in every case!) as WELL as or BETTER than the Remington bolt Rifles I purchased in the 60's, 70's and 80's?
Simple questions Cal, I hope I get some simple answers!
I know I am not going to convince you away from your bias regarding Remington Cal! I am just trying to prevent your "incredible" - AND I DO MEAN INCREDIBLE professed run of bad luck from influencing new shooters and those contemplating purchasing a new Rifle for accuracy needs, negatively affecting anyone regarding Remington!
Your arguments are having absolutely no effect on my admiration of Remingtons accuracy of late.
I will admit the recent Remington are sometimes roughly finished and on occassion have obvious cosmetic blemishes but for anyone to expect to go out and buy 4 Remingtons in a row and not getting at least ACCEPTABLE accuracy from ANY of them well... it just does not happen in the real world I live in.
By the way I spent the morning with my friend Ron as he sighted in his newly scoped old standby Remington 700 Classic in 35 Whelen. Yeah it just keeps lobbing those huge bullets into groups of less than an inch! I even shot it once and banged the gong at 300 yards with it! That was no feat at all of course, as the gong is armor plate 12" x 12" and hung by log chains! It was still fun to watch that armor jump when hit by the big bullets out of that Remington.
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Damn! I'm convinced now. I'm buying Remington from now on.

RXM

Rxmoore: You have now made a GOOD decision!
For any other Remington bashers and "doubting Thomas's" that may be lurking out there - I offer this regarding Remingtons "recent" accuracy! Refer to this recent testimonial:
from "The Varmint Hunter Magazine" issue #56, October 2,005 pages 186 through 189. From the article titled Remington XR-100 Rangemaster by John Haviland. Among other references the author states his Remington XR-100 had a pretty consistent (within 2 ounces) trigger and it broke at 2 pounds! As far as accuracy goes the Rifle was load tested with a variety of bullets and powders! Out of 15 loads tested 3 of them produced 5 shot groups at 100 yards in the 4's! (.421", .462" and .453"!)! This is excellent accuracy from a factory stock (no bedding job and no barrel floating!) bolt action Remington especially when the Rifle is firing Varmint style bullets with a moderately powered scope (Leupold 4.5x14)!
In addition the author took the time to do some shooting at 300 yards and fired a 3 shot group at 300 yards measuring 1.759"!
Not only does this Rifle shoot really well it looks really well and is well designed for Varmint Hunting!
I know this not because the author of this artcile states it but because I have owned and shot one at Varmints for some time now!
My Rifle has more scope power on it and mine does shoot somewhat better than the published article indicates that XR-100 shoots.
As an example of the accuracy of my recently purchased Remington bolt action Rifles accuracy I will refer to my loading log and list the last 4 five shot groups I made with my XR-100 at 100 yards. These groupings include my load development testing of two different powders! The last four 5 shot groups my Rifle shot at 100 yards measured .322", .402", .374" and .421"! In addition I will now list the last 4 groupings my Rifle made at 100 yards when I was firing Hornady factory ammunition (the only ammo or brass available at that time!) for you perusal the 5 shot 100 yard groups measured .439" and .326" (Hornady 32 gr. factory ammo) then .752" and .682" (Hornady 40 gr. factory ammo)!
Still very fine accuracy even with the factory ammo if I do say so myself!
And again my Remington XR-100 Rifle is 100% factory stock - no bedding job no barrel inletting etc!
While I have my loading log book upstairs and opened to the 204 section let me relay how my other recently purchased Remington bolt action Rifle performs accuracy wise!
My other 204 Rifle is a Remington Model 700 VLS and it is also 100 percent factory stock (except for a trigger adjustment I did on it myself). The last two 5 shot groups I made with this Rifle at 100 yards measured .480" and .398"! This again is splendid accuracy and this loading was the first and only loading I tested! This Rifle in other words may be capable of even greater accuracy!
Normally I always shoot 5 shot groups for sightin verification and for load development testing but when I bought this VLS Remington 700 Rifle ammunition was in extremely short supply! And brass was non-existent! Anyway I did some 3 shot groups with the hard to come by ammo when originally sighting in this Rifle I will relay the last two 3 shot 100 yard groups I made with this Rifle using the Hornady factory 40 gr. cartridges. Those two groups measured .330" and .336"!
Splendid accuracy this!
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG, I was being sarcastic.
But I think you already knew that.

RXM

I have two rem 700 heavy barelled guns both bought in the last 4 months. The .243 with first try at handloads shot a .434" 3 shot group. The .300 RUM PSS shot one load under .3" and the other load .501", the first load was a little hot so I backed off.

Can't complain about accuracy thats why accept them for varmint guns, and like to use cz's for hunting guns.

Rxmoore: "I" was being sarcastic but I think you already knew that!
In more direct terms I think your baseless bias against Remington Rifles is keeping you from making a "good decision" in this regard!
By the way - how do you few Remington bashers deal with all the good reports you hear regarding Remingtons accuracy?
Do you "suspend disbelief" of these types of testimonials, somehow, in your minds?
Keep an open mind regarding Remington over there in Billings Rx - as you may just find one (or twenty!) that will perform for you real well!
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

C'mon, VG. You have no idea how many Remington rifles I have in my safe, what other rifles I own, and what my experience has been with them. None. Nor do you know that I have any kind of bias toward Remington, baseless or otherwise.

My point was that I don't think, on balance, that one manufacturer is appreciably better than any other based on my handling of many rifles over an 8-month period.

For the record, my girlfriend has a Mod. 700 BDL in .270 Win. She likes it just fine. I've shot it some while I've been developing loads for it. It shoots pretty well. I like the trigger, I don't care for the safety much. The stock is way too short for me so I don't think I'll ever appreciate this rifle as much as I might otherwise, but if I were offered a 700 at a good price, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.

I might even take a 710 if I needed a jackhandle.

I'm glad you like your Remingtons because, after all, trusting your rifle is the really important thing regardless of what brand it might be.

RXM

Rxmoore: I am not "comin" anywhere with you Remington bashers!
You are wrong and I won't hesitate to flog you with facts and real life experiences as well as printed testimonials, facts and figures when the need be!
If you choose to besmirch Remingtons OR those that own them with snide remarks and an absolute absence of any proof or contentions based on anything - then be prepared for my wrath on the occassions I choose to hammer you with facts and figures and real life experiences!
Name one factory bolt action centerfire Rifle that has sold more than the Remington 700!
If you have an opinion and proofs state them, if not then can the snideness or suffer the "slings and arrows" that I trounce Remington bashers with.
Care to undo the snide remark (posting) you made concerning Remington?
If not be on the lookout for another trip out back behind the Remington bashers woodshed!
I do not care how many Remingtons you have in your safe! If you have specifics like I do regarding Remington espouse them, or not - I don't care! But do not attempt to get away with Remington bashing in any way shape or form - without convincing proof.
So far you profess - nothing?
8 months of handling arms? Is that a misprint?
I am basing my contentions on at least 540 months of "handling", owning, shooting, Hunting with, buying, selling and trading Remingtons bolt action centerfires!
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Rxmoore: I am not "comin" anywhere with you Remington bashers!
VarmintGuy

You evidently need some help with reading comprehension. I would recommend that you review this entire thread and see what was actually SAID, as opposed to what you invented or misinterpreted or whatever.

I'm not sure why you'd care whether or not anyone shared your obvious affection for Remington rifles. Is that insecurity talking, or do you think you're the self-annointed savior of firearm purchasers everywhere, put on this Earth to protect the great unwashed who might otherwise buy inferior guns?

I give you high markes for tenacity, and even higher marks for amusement value. But I would return to my central thesis; in my experience (once more for the semi-literate) selling firearms over the counter for 8 months and handling dozens of individual rifles of various makes and models, there isn't a great deal of difference in quality between the major brands. Add this to, hmm, let me see, 38 years of gun ownership, actually firing rifles of various makes and models, that more or less supports that conclusion.

Is this Remington bashing? I'll leave that to others to decide.

RXM

Rxmoore: Nice dance you are trying to get away with there - but what in the hell are you saying?
Do you declare and contend that Remington bolt action Rifles are accurate or inaccurate?
Its a VERY simple question - Rxmoore!
Answer or keep dancing around the issue - what ever you choose is fine with me!
I have clearly stated my views, experiences and contentions - how about you stepping up (like a man would do) and making clear yours!
No "amusement value" or technical value what so ever to your wanderings Rx!
Yes indeed I do defend the accuracy of Remingtons. I have the experience, "tenacity" and courage to clearly state my reasons and reasoning.
Any "clarity" to your postings regarding your opinion in this regard (accuracy) has escaped my detection!
Again for "clarity", of which you may have trouble comprehending the "gist" of this thread - I will ask of you!
Do you have experiences and or opinions - one way or the other regarding the ACCURACY of Remington bolt action Rifles?
Dance around the topic and my questions, again, if you must but avoiding questions is not the same as answering them.
I do not need to leave that to others to decide - I am smart enough to recognize a "dancer" and an "avoider" when I see one!
I would be very interested in your reasoning and experiences one way or another!
Yes, in a way I guess I am baiting you to either "bash" Remingtons or get off the pot!
I am still waiting for you to name the factory Rifle that you contend is more accurate than Remington! Wait! Wait! Wait!
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Nice dance? Boy, you have a rich fantasy life.

I'm trying to remember how many Remington Model 700s I've shot over the years. Not a hell of a lot, maybe a dozen or so. Aside from one, which was a 7mm rem mag that wouldn't group any of three factory loads under 1.75 inches, they have been ok. An inch to an inch and half pretty easily. My girlfriend's 700 is right around 1.25 inches, but I haven't finished working with it and I'm sure it can do better.

My go-to rifle is a Winchester Model 70 in .270 win that groups better than any factory rifle that I've ever shot, typically around .5 inches, completely unaltered from the factory. Not with every load I've tried with it, but with enough of them to tell me that it's a pretty accurate rifle.

I've shot Rem, Win, Savage, Howa, Ruger, sporterized Mauser 98s, some Weatherbys, one Browing, and a few others I don't remember. I like to shoot and I've spent some considerable time shooting other people's rifles when I have been at the range shooting mine.

Now, here's my point - follow along closely.

From my experience, factory rifles from the major manufacturers have been pretty much the same in terms of accuracy, at least the one's I've shot. Some were great, some were awful. Most were pretty good. One brand didn't outshine any other.

I really can't make it any simpler than that.

You seem to want to reduce this to an "either-or" choice. Either Remingtons are the best goddamn rifles made, or they suck. Sorry, Bud, but life isn't made like that.

If you sat down and shot 20,000 unaltered factory rifles of various makes, I doubt there'd be enough difference between brands to be worth talking about. I could be wrong about that, but my experience says otherwise. My Model 70 shoots better than any other factory rifle I've shot, but that doesn't mean that Winchester makes the most accurate rifles. I have other Mod. 70s that are pretty average.

You may call this dancing; in fact, I expect you will. I call it a reasonable systhesis of the information I have at hand. Some people need the world to be black and white. You must be one of those guys.

Enjoy your Remingtons. I'm sure they're as accurate as you say they are. But my experience tells me that Remingtons, as a group, aren't any more accurate than another rifles out there.

RXM

Rxmoore: Listen carefully! I guess you have no specific answers to my direct questions?
My extensive experiences differ from your "generalizations" regarding factory Rifles accuracy!
Remingtons have vastly surpassed other centerfires I have used, seen and owned in the percentage that ARE, in my opinion accurate!
Long live Remington (and yes I enjoy them very much)!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Dude, that was a specific answer.

I don't know how "extensive" your experience is. It differs from mine. My sample size is likely smaller than yours, but that doesn't necessarily make the results I observed invalid. That they are different from what you experienced doesn't make them invalid either.

Regardless of what I am told, by you or anyone else, I have to believe what I see. I won't repeat it here, since you don't seem to be listening all that closely.

Have a fine hunting season.

RXM

I purchased a new left hand bdl 243 and mounted a Leupold 2-7 on it. It cut 1/2 moa 3 shot groups at 100 yards yesterday with 100 grain hornady spire points with H 4831. Nothing done to the rifle, out of box accuracy. My 700 bdl 270 is very accurate as well. There is a reason so many target and sniper rifles are built on 700 actions. I think they are the best for the money and i have model 70s ect.

VarmintGuy,
I too have a love affair with my Remingtons(many) including my latest aquisition, a 722/.222 in 98-99% condition bought at a gun show last Saturday for $450.00. Long live the Deuce!!!
Stepchild

WoW!

My safe looks more like an orphanage than a brand loyal owner of anything! I have had mixed experiences and because of it I really don't have a brand loyalty. I've only purchased two Rems and they were used.
I've always felt that with Remington you were paying as much for the name as the performance.( also Weatherby) I like the three position safety on the Winchesters. To me it's one of the features I find atracting me. I don't care for the 700 safety much and even now have only one Rem and it's an old Model 600. At least the bolt can be cycled with the safety on.
I haven't been buying much in the way of rifles. I've won a couple at dinners and rafles that I've kept( Win M70 in .25-06, 10/22 Mag) and traded a few away (new Tikka .280, and used ones I had). I traded for an M77 tang saftied Ruger. I really like the tang safety and will likely aquire others. I would probably get a M70 or an M77 for my sons if I were to pick right now, and if money were no object then the Kimber would be interesting to me.

When it comes to accuracy I've had a well used Rem 788 out shoot a new 700 BDL with such a profound difference the owner replaced it with a Ruger! I have a Ruger M77 in .338 that shoots as well as anybody who's talented can make it. It took some fiddling to get there though. I have others that work fine out of the box. My 7mmRM in the M70 is very consistant with my current load, but has some kind of issue with the scope mounts.( not sure if the reciever is uneven, or the mounts are strange) My new .25-06 seems finicky, it's a M70, but it will shoot 115gr XLC's pretty dang good. Yesterday I was out with my 10 year old looking for deer, the M600 was riding up front (handy), the .25-06 was in the back, and the boy had the 10/22 Mag. Each was for a purpose they perform well. I look for guns to fill a niche based on what I think will work best. The Model 600 Rem could be replaced by a short M70 and I'd give it up.

I think it comes down to peoples personalities a lot. I heard the .270W was the end all to rifles and I never saw it work out that way in the field. Because of this I've never been a fan and see it as very over rated. I heard Rems were the "most accurate out of the box" but that hasn't always been fact either. I think whatever floats your boat when it comes to rifles is fine. I don't think any one manufacturer has proven to be consitantly better than anyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by rxmoore:
...Quality control is a dying art in the US, as is customer service.

RXM

I believe this sums up a lot reguardless of who/ which manufacturer we discuss( or cuss )

Collectively we are a picky lot!

Incidently,, I won't be buying Chevy's any more if I can help it. I had two in a row that I was unhappy with. My Granddad used to say " Want a car buy Chevy, want a real truck get a Ford", I used to think being biased was close minded. Now I'm thinking it happens based on experiences, good or bad! Nate

I have had similar experiences as BigNate.

I do believe you are paying as much for the "green box" as for what comes inside...

And that is true for MANY name brands:
Browning, Beretta, Sig, Glock, Winchester (oh I said Browning already ) Sako, and on and on and on...

They gotta pay for those slick, glossy catalogs somehow.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
AAW-I don't mean to come off sounding harsh or ultra-critical, but if you've been in the business long enough, you'd know that a generalized statement from a PR person is often the farthest thing from the truth. Sugar-coated statistics and biased "research data" are free-flowing around the industry. Actual comparative analysis is the only way to get at the truth, and the real numbers are seldom available without serious digging.

Well yes and no. I agree with the statement. I spoke with 2 regional sales managers and the Operations Manager for Remington at SHOT in February. I included three people in my questioning and spoke to them all at different times because I just could not believe they would drop the Sendero.

Fact: The sales of the Sendero fell off the edge of the earth last year. Nobody seems to know exactly why. One genetleman told me they were down over 75% year to year.

The Product Planning manager was consistently quoted by each of the people I talked to as saying, "Everybody who wanted a Sendero has one." This was stated by him as what he felt was the reason behind the drop off in sales.

Neither of the two regional sales mangers agreed with the reasoning of the PP manager; however, neither could they put their finger on the reason for the strong drop in sales.

My opinion is that the drop off could be due to increased competition (Winchester Coyote, Laredo, perhaps others), increased price (my first Sendero cost me $525), channel problems. All of my hunting companions save for one have Senderos (I live in C).

There are two ways to deal with a drop in sales. Kill the product or seek ways of increasing the demand. One guy from Remington told me that they had gotten a lot of heat from their channel regarding the shear number of rifle/caliber combinations, it was becomming two large and complex. There was an effort last year to streamline it, the Sendero was a casualty of that streamlining.

Right or wrong is not the point. The fact is, it's gone for 2005.

No one I talked to in the Remington booth said it would be gone forever and the door was left open for bringing it back as demand increased due to those units still in the distribution channel being sold off.

It is notable that even though the Sendero has been discontinued, you can still buy one new for about the same street price as they've always had (~$750). So far there has not been a lot of price creep on them. That should directly relate back to demand.

re5513

Just one mans opinion, but I think there are a lot of .222Rem.s out there even though we don't see that many at the range. Seeing as how so many shooters already have .222Rems I doubt they would sell that well. I do find discontinuing the Sendero line strange though although I really shoudn't be surprised at anything Remington does anymore. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Oh-oh!
I guess I was absolutely not supposed to be able to do it but, YES, I did make a VERY long shot on a very beautiful Antelope Buck with my (DARE I SAY IT?) - REMINGTON Rifle!
My Leica Model 800 rangefinder read 441 yards to the ground the creature was standing on just before I shot!
Yeah, just one shot from my Remington Sendero in caliber 270 Winchester brought to bag this nifty trophy!
It must have been one of those "lucky" shots that the Remington naysayers always have as their specious retort!
I don't think so!
LOL!
This Remington factory stock Rifle was (and is) so accurate (and consistently so) that I have complete confidence in it! No barrel floating - no bedding job - no recrowning - no brand allegiance extravagance, just year after year - decade after decade of accuracy and reliability this Remington and from my many other Remingtons.
Two other Remington Rifles also performed admirably on this just concluded Hunt for my Hunt mates!
My Antelope creature was brought to bag on THE most difficult Antelope Hunt I have ever endured (and I have been on at least 50 or 60 of them)!
Snow nearly a foot deep to begin with then melting snow and the resulting quagmire of gumbo and then two days of rain to make access to Antelope areas not only next to impossible but very dangerous (gumbo rollovers!).
I trudged my Sendero into a field that was so difficult to walk in and exhausting that I had to rest every 100 yards (on flat ground!)!
When it came time to make this long shot I had complete confidence in the Rifle - its safety - its accuracy - its trigger and its expected performance.
My rig was sighted in to be dead on at 250 yards and this shot was simply a matter of ranging holdover and proper trigger technique! The Remington did the rest!
I again reiterate thet the Remington naysayers of today simply have not had enough in the field and at the range experience with them! No offense intended!
Long live Remington!
We were all set to electronic call and night spot the numerous Coyotes in the area but off pavement travel was impossibly difficult in the day and would have been suicidal at night!
I did kill one of the 11 Coyotes we saw with my backup Remington 700 VLS in caliber 260 Remington! The Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet did a good job of anchoring him right there (DRT!). But this shot was only 250 yards or so and nothing real special like my Antelope shot!
The Prairie Dogs did come out in a couple of towns that we Hunted around and I got to kill a couple with my 17 HMR on the last day in our Antelope camp! The last day of our Hunt the Sun came out and showed my guest from New York and Washington just how beautiful the high plains can be!
Well I have to go clean the gumbo off of that "run of the mill" Sendero of mine!
Nothing the "Remington naysayers" have espoused has even come close to convincing me to ever let this fine Rifle out of my arsenal!
Long live Remington.
My close friend from Seattle had the only non-Remington Rifle along on the Hunt and he got his first Antelope with a lasered 355 yard shot using his Browning Medallion Grade (gold engraving and inlays!) bolt action in 300 Winchester Magnum! He bought that Rifle in Viet Nam in the late 1960's from the PX there!
He was just ecstatic with his first Antelope and it was the best we took on this trip. Its at the taxidermist being skinned as I write this.
Long live Remington!
Long live the Antelope and the high plains Varmints!
The drought is over in Montana it appears!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Re5513: Thank you for the specific info "from the horses mouth" there at the Shot Show!
I wonder why that year to year drastic drop off ("75%"!) in sales occurred? Maybe the market became "satisfied" so to speak and everyone that wanted or had a need for one of the Senderos was "sold to"? It could be just that simple!
Thanks again.
Long live Remington!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy