Warning to newbies:

This is getting crazy.

If you have no judgment and just follow procedures and if you read anything on the internet, you might act on it like a procedure, then you should not be reloading or reading the internet.

Please lie down and hold still. Help is on the way. If you get hungry or have to go to the bathroom, make a high pitched crying sound.

Clarkie:

I assume that your cute humor is just trying to get across the common sense Idea of work up.

I hope some of these newbies are smart enough to get that point. Charles Darwin and his theories on Natural Selection often made me wonder if he was a handloader. If he was not, his theories are still very applicable. ( Humor intended, not meant as a serious statement, for the critics out there)

Eldeguello, thanks for the support.
Hey and check out the separate posting I did on pressure testing and loading manuals. I am sure you might find this of particular interest.

Right,
I can't think of any other hobby or sport where one gets allot of grief for describing his adventures.

I said I climbed Mt Daniel. That would kill most people if they tried.

I assume that I could say I swam a mile, and no beginner swimmer will try.

I assume that one can say he jumped 20 feet in the air with his motorcycle....

What we have here is an anomaly. I think there are some unusual circumstances here. It is best understood with a quote from Huck Finn, " I heard bees won't sting idiots, but I know that ain't true. I been around bees lots'a times and they never stung me."

There are two types of handloaders, the ones that use judgment, and the ones that follow procedures. The procedure followers see a post about an overload and have a choice of reactions:
1) That is beyond the loadbooks and I am afraid to go there. I wish I understood more about how they develop their own loads. Maybe if I handload for another 50 years, I will learn how.
2) That post is crazy and dangerous. Why? er, er, er, er, because someone who lacks my skills might read it and blow themselves up.

[ 08-15-2003, 12:07: Message edited by: Clark ]

Clark:

Your Quote: "There are two types of handloaders, the ones that use judgment, and the ones that follow procedures".

It must be comforting to reduce the world in such an absurd way. Lets give every-one who disagrees with me a label and dismiss their point of view.

I use judgement every time I hand-load and part of that judgement is not sailing off into stupid land to feed my own ego needs. But hey feel free to exercise your brand of "judgement ". I'll continue to exercise my own.

When I want 308 ballistics I'll use my 308. When I want to ride the pressure curve I'll trade in my .0001 micrometer for a strain guage and do so. Until I have the right equipment to measure what I am doing I am not practicing science or excercising judgement but I am trusting to luck and engaging in alchemy. The old wild catters did this. When their loads were pressure tested the magic reported results were made by hopping up pressure to extereme levels. Where the judgement is in this I don't quite understand, unless you meant "bad" judgement.
Good luck. You are likely dependent on it.

I found out the load books were wrong [Especially Sierra handgun manual] when they said that the CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev pistol. It turns out the bottom of the CZ52 chamber is paper thin and splits with a little overload. No other semi auto I have tested is weak like that. Anyway, look at diaper that need changing on this CZ52 owner because he read my posts:
http://pub113.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm25.showMessage?topicID=6181.topic



So I have North60 and Kevan9mm in one day ragging on me. A typical day.

One last go at sanity.

In a 308 Winchester with 26" barrel Hodgdon suggest a maximum load of 38.0 grains of 748 giving 49,900 CUP and 2232 ft/sec. In a 20" barrel this would be equivelant to around 2100ft/sec.

A staring load of 36.0 grains gives 2111 and 45000CUP

To use 1 less grain in a 40000 CUP rifle cartridge combination with 10 grains (about 20%) less capacity and get the same velocity with "no pressure signs" is not an anomoly it is a miracle. Maybe angels were at work?
Can you say 55-60000CUP?

I instantly wonder how pressure is being measured. Looking at the primers? tea leaves? the entrails of goats? the fact that the shooter was still alive after pulling the trigger? I would bet everything I have that the method of pressure testing in this case (no pun intended) was not overly rigorous. In fact I bet the tester didn't even measure base expansion to 0001, which while not super reliable is at least something.

I have reloaded for dozens of calibers and I have never seen a markedly smaller capacity
case use essentially as much powder as a larger case with less pressure and the same velocity. I doubt if Ken Waters or any credible researcher with a real method of "judging" pressures has either. This load is certainly off the chart of my Powley Computer which has shown decent results from 17 HMR to the 14.5 mm Russian antitank rifle.

Maybe it is that modern case shape of the 30-30 that has a magic effect. (this was an ironic comment)

Extra-ordinary claims need extra-ordinary proof. I don't believe in ghosts, ufo's the loch ness monster , cold fusion or ballistic miracles without credible scientific proof.

Rhetoric doesn't do it. absurd analogies with mountain climbing doesn't cut it either. Also as far as following a procedure... this is part of scientific method..a subject that doesn't seem to be well taught in whatever schools some people went to. Wish fullfillment is not science and reloading needs some understanding of scientific method especially if you are leaving the relative safety of established load levels.

Without a reliable means of pressure testing such research has zero merit. In fact negative merit since it is only a matter of time till someone gets hurt. And yes some people will react to foolishness and try to counter it with a call for responsibility. get used to it.

North of 60,

the first line, I posted was if the load was not liked, then pass it by. It was not intented to start and arguement with any one.

While I sincerely believe this load is safe and has proven no problems in about 5 other winchesters; and I respect your opinion as I will never knock a man 'erroring' on the side of safety. By all means Safety first.

However despite all the data that you have submitted, have you just even tried loading up W 748 with a 220 grain bullet with a lot less powder and just worked up?

If you had the time or desire to do so, I would be very interested in your findings, especially if you experienced any problems before any where near 35 grains of W 748.

I spoke to a tech rep at one of the bullet companies and we discussed that load. He indicated that they had never tested it and it did not have any real " popular" application in their opinion. However he asked where I had gotten the idea. His grandfather had been loading that up in his old 30/30 for years, until he passed away. thought it was interesting and just passing it on.

fair enough. I no longer have a 30-30 but am tempted by the new Marlin carbine with 16" barrel. 748 is a favourite powder in .308 and 350 Rem Mag. My problem in working up a load in a Marlin is that I worry about the margin of safety and likely won't be very adventuresome. I sincerely hope you are correct and I am being an old fuddy duddy. Good luck.

By the way I have a freind who swears by his 303 Savage with 190 grain bullets in the speed range you discuss. He has collected many more moose than I ever will.

MSS,
My load notes read like if Ackley had destructive tested pistols like he did surplus rifles.

I have blown up 4 revolvers and 2 CZ52s and tried to blow up dozens of other designs, but the brass failed first.

This picture of three identical loads, 40 gr. IMR4895 and 100 gr. in a 243 in a Turk Mauser I re barreled, has been downloaded over 6000 times. The small change in bullet pinch from round to round makes a big difference. Once I learned about bullet pinch, which in in Ackley's book but it didn't sink in, I was able to go to the next level.

North of 60---is correct. 99% of published loading manual data has been written from safe loading pressures and experience..Why take the chance of wearing a Winchester 94 or Marlin 336 logo on your forehead?? Have I overloaded the 30-30?? Yes--a single shot that could handle almost double the pressure of the lever guns..I have used every bullet that could possibly be loaded in the 30-30...the one that does the job?? Hornady 170 JFN loaded within established parameters.... but, then of course that is only my opinion. Of course I do not have the experience that most of you have...I have been reloading and shooting for only 50 years.

Snow,

That load was posted as a point of interest. I did recommend working up, and also pass it by if it was not of interest.

With 50 yrs of reloading, we all respect your experience.

This thread had no orientation to pass the message " HOW MUCH CAN YOU OVERLOAD A 30/30???"

It is just a load I found useful for some people and passed it on.

One thing that is wrong in our society tho, Neither you nor I should be responsible for someone elses stupidity. I am responsible for my own safety and you are responsible for yours.
How we do that might be open to different interpretations, but no one should question another guy if he is showing some intelligence.

If I am around stupid people, I just leave!

Seafire,

Interesting post(!) I applaud your experimentation, but I MUST ADVISE YOU TO PLEASE USE EXTREME CAUTION WITH THIS LOAD IN A LEVER ACTION RIFLE!

The .30-30 SAAMI maximum average pressure in lever action rifles is in the area of 40,000 p.s.i. and based on the following, I would bet that your load is definitely generating over 50,000 p.s.i. which is in the .30-30 "proof" load pressure range. A .30-30 lever action rifle may shoot a "proof" load many, many, many, times, but then ...... possibly,....... one day ..........well, it may not be pretty.

One thing is for sure, I would kindly recommend that you do not give any of these loads to any one else to shoot in their rifle. If the unthinkable happens, you may find yourself on the wrong side of the law. I would definitely not like to see that happen.

In the past 24 years I have fired away at least 2,000+ rounds of .30-30's using a 225 gr. cast gas checked bullet over 36 grs. of 748, BUT IN A STRONG 788 REMINGTON BOLT ACTION RIFLE.

This load chronographs 2,165 f.p.s. in a 22" barrel and does a great job of knocking down 55# NRA Steel Rams at 500 meters. Based on some calculations I have done, I believe this load is in the area of 55,000 p.s.i. or close to it.

After at least 20 loadings at this pressure, the .30-30 W-W cases I have been using are still working aok. Primer pockets are still tight and the neck sized cases chamber with no difficulty whatsoever.

The point being that even at a pressure of almost 40% over SAAMI specs for lever action rifles, the cases are still functioning just fine.

I have also shot away many rounds of Lyman's 220 gr. cast gas checked bullet (311284) in several of my lever action .30-30's over the past 10 years, but using slower burning powders like W760, H414, 4350 and H4831SC as some of the other contributors had mentioned.

33.5 grs. of the first 3 and 36 grs. of H4831SC will generate 1,900 f.p.s. in a 20" barrel and just under 2,000 f.p.s. in a 26" barrel and at about 40,000 p.s.i.

Take care and stay safe!
w30wcf

Where can I buy a 225 gr cast bullet with GC?

Is W748 the same as H335?

w30wcf: Thanks and thanks again on your interesting additional info. Really wish I could test the pressure on that load. One guy at Hornady told me his grandpa used that same load for years in a 1930s vintage Model 94
Winchester.

clark: H 335 is not the same as W 748. While I sincerely believe that H 414 and W 760 are the same powder, along with Varget and H 4895. H 335 is definitely different in the load manuals.
( which I do read contrary to some people's thoughts on here).

My project for this week is going to be the 30/40 Krag. I don't push the upper limits on it. I also really don't hunt with the 220 grain load in a 30/30. However if I had to carry a 30/30 in the brush after Elk or Bear I would feel confident in using it. I especially have more faith in a Marlin for beef than a Model 94.

Clark,
Sorry, but I do not know of anyone who currently offers a .30 caliber 225 gr. cast bullet. I make mine from a Lyman mold I purchased in 1980. It was a paper patched design that I converted to conventional form.

As Seafire mentioned, H335 and 748 are not the same powder. H335 is faster burning.

Seafire,
Thank you for the kind words. I agree that W760 and H414 are the same powder manufactured by Primex located in Florida.

One thing I neglected to mention that will alo raise pressures is the bullet seating depth. If one loads a 220 gr. bullet in the .30-30 to the same overall length as a 170 gr. bullet, allowing it to feed through the magazine, the heavier bullet will protrude an additional .20" into the case, reducing case capacity, thus raising pressures higher.

I load my 220 & 225 gr. cast bullets to a depth that is no greater than the 170 gr. or .50". If I go deeper, I lower the powder charge.

Have fun with that classic .30-40!
w30wcf

I like to compare the the published loads of a powder, as well as the look, the smell, and the density.

Power Pistol, once known as Bullseye 84, looks and smells just like Bullseye, but the published loads are different, and so is the density. When I idenify either as an unkown left in the powder meter, I must do the density test.

eldeguello,

Currently, these powders are manufactured by Primex in St. Marks Florida who purchased Olin Corporation some years ago. Olin was the inventor of ball powders back in the 1940's.

Primex manufacturers identical powders for both Winchester and Hodgdon, who market them under the following numbers:

Winchester/Hodgdon
W231 / HP38
W540 / HS6
W571 / HS7
W296 / H110
W760 / H414
W785 / H450 (both obsolete)

The differences you are seeing can be attributed to different lots of powder, different firearm, different tester, etc.

I have used the exact same charges of both powders using lots purchased in the same time frame and the velocities were within less than 15 f.p.s. difference.

Sincerely,
w30wcf

W 30 wcf:

Thanks for passing on that info.

I have always expected that the difference in the load data in manuals between H 414 and W 760, was strictly to give the " Marketing" illusion that they were different.

Loading one or the other in several cartridges with the same charge weights, did not show any difference whatsoever.

Sort of like recently I saw a person at a gun shop wanting to buy bullets and he thought that the Ballistic Tips from Nosler, were a cheap imitation of the Ballistic Silver Tips from Winchester. The clerk asked him who told him that, and his response was " some guy at the range"./

As the blind lead the blind........

w30wcf
Thanks a lot for that powder info! I didn't know where Hodgdon was getting their "new" ball powders, now that the surplus sources have pretty well disappeared! I cut and paste all such useful reference info from these forums into my "online notebook for future reference!

Thanks again!

hi
can someone tell me, 220 gr in front of compressed load of BP(ffg or fffg) how many psi &fps would it make? is it safe?
danny

Danny,

In my experience, it is always best to densely load BP and to slightly compress it with the bullet. One wants to compress the powder without crushing the grains of powder. Is that what you mean or are you referring to the pre-compressed cylinder of BP used in the original .303 Brit round?

In any case, with the long 220 gr. RN, you'll probably get between 30 and 35 gr. of BP in the case. 3F is preferable. You probably won't get 1300 fps.

Now, somebody tell me why all this sudden interest in shooting BP in the .30-30? To my mind, it is simply wasteful of effort (more so than all the rest of my hobbies! ) BP is not as safe to store, more difficult to acquire (because retailers are reluctant to spend the money necessary to handle it according to the law) and less effective in producing the velocities required for maximum effectiveness. I "get" the idea of doing something different but the fact is, it serves no useful purpose.

hi hobie
yes it is more fun to shoot with Bp especially in cowboy action shooting 303 british send a 215 gr at 2100 fps with comperssed bp load!and cordit load just duplicated that with much less powder and much more pressure don,t understimate BP!
danny

Danny,

Huh uh.

My personal preference is to shoot with CAS with a traditional cartridge (e.g. .44-40) in a traditional rifle (e.g. Winchester 1873) even if it is a reproduction.

Trying to make the .30-30 something it really isn't for whatever reason seems to be a futile activity to me...

However, being the gun nut I am, I got out some .30-30 cases, 3F BP, drop tube and some cast 180 gr. bullets just to see what the powder charge would really be and how it would perform. Guess I can't stand it now either.

Fortunately, I can try this in my Contender barrel and don't have to worry about messing up my 1943 manufactured M1894 Winchester. Should be interesting... for a bit.

I just read in "Speer 13" .307 Win description that the new angle eject '94 can take a .307 [rimmed .308].

Can my 1977 '94 angle eject now in 30-30 be rebarrelled for .307?

If so, then I certainly could load my 30-30 heavier than 42 kpsi.

Clark,

If you have ever seen a Model 94 chambered from the factory in 307 Winchester, you will notice that the receiver is much more beefed up than the Model 94 for the 30/30. Even same year of production.

If you did want to rebarrel a lever action for 307, I would seriously look at the Marlin instead. It is supposed to be a much stronger receiver than the Model 94. I have seen a Marlin that was factory chambered in a 307 and have seen one chambered in 356. Both rifles receivers were pretty much the same as the 30/30 models.

Verify this with a gunsmith tho, just to be safe.

Seafire,
I typed that after reading "Speer 13", and should have realized how much BS is in that book.

I then looked at Numerich parts catalog to see if the 307 '94s had interchangable parts. There is was, the 307 big bore 94AE XTR, introduced in 1978, with different parts.

seafire
See your missing the point!! You may very well be WAY over the pressure limits of that rifle and not see any signs of over pressure!!! Do us a favor send one of your round to the SAMMI and get it checked out to see where it's really at? Whats it cost $ 10 per round to do it? Then you'll have proof positive whether it's a good load or not!

Or atleast don't be giving these out to your (friends)? If you don't like your face that's fine but don't put other people in danger to make your ego feel better!

[ 09-04-2003, 00:58: Message edited by: Gunnut 45/454 ]

Gun Nut 45:

You and I commonly have the same views on a lot of things.

In my beginning post I pointed out that I shared this with the board as a point of interest. If someone did not like it, then they can feel free to pass it by. It was not an invitation for an argument, nor entitled " How Much Can YOU OVERLOAD a 30/30."

I really don't spend a lot of time on this, and really only use it in one rifle, that shoots it well, and will shoot nothing else well.

It is strictly a point of interest and any NON fool knows he should work up a load. We are also living in a society that everyone else is suppose to be more responsible for a person's welfare than that person himself or herself. It is okay to be stupid or do something stupid and then blame it on someone else.

If I find something a point of interest to me personally, I will work up that load as I would anything else new to me. Like the past few days, me the 45 Long Colt are getting acquainted.
A few people gave me some hot loads for it. I know that is the upper end of the range, and had no intention of really seeing a need for them in what I will use the gun for. However I did notice that this particular Colt seems to be happier with loads that are just short of max, for accuracy etc. Lighter loads gave me trouble extracting from the chamber. ( want to explain that to me, when one normally think that the hotter loads would be the ones that had trouble extracting).

Just strikes me, since 30/30 brass is no where near as tough as other calibers brass that the brass would show signs of problems before the receiver would, especially on a 1966 vintage and 1935 vintage model 94. Reloading some of these cases over 20 times with that load tells me it is okay. Primers go in as snug as when the case was new.

On the flip side, a low pressure load with cast bullets in the same rifles give me extraction problems.

We are all responsible for our own safety. Just because we live in a country that has 6% of the worlds population and 71 % of the world's lawyers, does not negate that fact.

Saeed:

If you read this, this post has run its course.
Please delete it. It is not posted as a forum for arguments.

Anyone interested in it, has read it and will exercise his interest or not.

Thanks

"Just strikes me, since 30/30 brass is no where near as tough as other calibers brass that the brass would show signs of problems before the receiver would, especially on a 1966 vintage and 1935 vintage model 94. Reloading some of these cases over 20 times with that load tells me it is okay. Primers go in as snug as when the case was new."

This is absoutely correct! I noted above a post by someone who was going to test a particular load in a ".30/30 that is twice as strong as an M 94 Winchester". In actuality, the question here is not so much one of ACTION strength as it is BRASS strength, since the .30/30 case is made of pretty thin brass. P. O. Ackley, in his myriad testing of actions and barrel strength, found that an M94 Winchester .30/30 could be fired UNLOCKED with no ill effects, because the case gripped the chamber walls with sufficient force at max. pressures to "lock" it in the chamber. Primers sometimes backed out, but not cases!!

The problems encountered in the Browning-designed LA actions when fired with excessively high pressures, specifically, the M92 Winchester chambered for the .454 Casull, was CHAMBER expansion due to too-thin walls and standard-strength barrel steel. When tougher steel was used to make the barrels, this problem disappeared.

I believe that excessive pressures in a Winchester M94 .30/30 would swell a chamber before any other problem occurred. Such an occurrence, of course, would naturally ruin the case!!

In Seafire's load, he's not even loosening primer pockets!!

[ 09-04-2003, 21:42: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

This has been a very interesting thread. There have been all the usual arguments for and against with some interesting diversions.

My take on it is that this load would not be safe in my rifles, a 1943 dated M1894 or a Contender. That's based on what they do with 50 gr. less bullet weight and the same powder charge.

seafire & eldeguello,

Please don't believe that .30-30 cases are weak.

MODERN .30-30 CASES DEFINITELY ARE AS STRONG AS OTHER, HIGHER PRESSURE CARTRIDGE CASES.

It will take about as much pressure to loosen a primer pocket in a .30-30 case as it will in a .270. Why? Because the thickness of the case head from the primer pocket to the extraction grooves of both cases were the same (.10")!

Also, the thickness of the brass just ahead of the critical web area is the same (.040")!

The .30-30 is definitely not a weak case. As I had mentioned, 20+ reloads with 55,000 p.s.i.
and the primer pockets were just as tight as when they were new. Obviously this is definitely way above proof pressure for a '94 but I was using a strong 788 Remington Bolt Action rifle.

If one starts loosening primer pockets in modern .30-30 brass, LOOK OUT, pressures would have to be pushing 70,000 p.s.i.!!!!

If the modern brass alloy cartridge case is not supported by a strong steel chamber, it would simply blow out forward of the case web.

As a case in point, earlier in my reloading days (1970) I made the mistake of putting a primer in a .22-250 case that was already charged with powder. Like a d-u-m-m-y since it didn't go in easy (beacause it was cocked) I forced it, setting off the primer. The primer blew the bullet and powder out of the case. (I must have jumped a few feet!) In the process, the body of the .22-250 cartridge case had expanded considerably, so much so that it would not even begin to enter a sizing die!!

Thus the reason for the success of P.O. Ackley's experiment.

YES, a cartridge case is only as good as the chamber/action it is fired in.

Take care,
w30wcf

[ 09-07-2003, 18:38: Message edited by: w30wcf ]

Interesting thread, one word of info I remember reading on the 94 winchester action; the 94 actions made during certain times were made of alloys that were very "Flexible" and would take large overloads without bursting, but would cause uncommon wear on the internal action parts. Loads worked up on a 94 of that vintage might not bust it up, but could cause severe damage in other guns. I'm digging through my stuff, but haven't found the ref yet...I remember it also impacted the bluing on the guns and that this vintage of 94s were usually found with heavy blue wear on the action because the alloy didn't take bluing well.
I won't comment on loading data other than to agree with eldeguello's tag line, about every weapon being an entity to itself for reloading.

I like an open discussion and sharing of ideas and everyone entering must accept responsibility for their actions. On other forums this post would have been wiped and seafire banished from the pond. I like this much better.

regards,
Graycg

The Ackley experiment I posted does not give a complete picture of '94 strength. The lever holding the action closed and the only locking was the brass to chamber friction.

He suggests then that the limiting factor is the chamber splitting.

The part that was not clear to me was that with the locking mechanism gone, the lock could not get beat up.

To clarify, an experiment must be done. The chamber should be a stock 30-30, the cases lubricated, and the load just under what would spit the chamber. After 100 rounds the locked up headspace would be checked for change.

I am amazed that this thread has a life of its own.

Not that I spend a lot of time loading up 220 grain loads of this level in the 30/30, as I have a mirade of other rifles, if I need this level of performance.

All of the opinions have been focus on blowing the rifle up with this load. I am sure most reading it have the sense to start lower. Most 30/30 owners are usually buying ammo at Walmart anyway.

One thing that I do think is interesting that I will share, ( and this is not personally drawing any conclusions). IN the same 1966 vintage rifle that is spoke of, I took it to the range today. I did have 2 out of 10 cases split the neck after firing the rounds out of it.

The brass was once fired Remington 30/30 brass. The load was not the 220 grain bullet with the 35 grains of W 748. Instead it was with a 160 grain cast bullet with 10 grains of Unique! I am sure that its pressure was minimal compared to some of the other loads I use in it.

I also fired 10 rounds of IMR 3031, 25 grains with a 110 grain Round Nose bullet in it. Cases were out of the same batch of Remington cases that above split the necks. Pressure was higher in this load.

Not drawing ANy conclusions, just reporting results observed. These are contrary to what should have happened according to popular opinion. Like all loads I experience problems with, I just keep an eye out on them.. This case it will be the light loads with a cast bullet and Unique powder.