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quote:Warning to newbies: That previous post may contain facetious material [ tongue in cheek, humor, not serious] Eldeguello's awareness of real cartridge limitations is as big as the check Wolfe Publishing sends to Ken Waters every month. | |||
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eldeguello, I know that there have been some misconceptions about the strength of modern .30-30 brass over the years. As an example of this, for the past 20 years or so, Speer has repeated this over and over in each update of their reloading manuals. Quote: "We are occasionally asked if the .30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in a modern bolt action like the Remington 788 .30-30. The answer is NO! The .30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting to load it hotter would risk a dangerous case failure." End of quote. Obviously they did not section modern .30-30 brass before they made that statement. As I mentioned, I have been using .30-30 cases headstamped W-W (circa late 1970's) loaded to higher pressures in my two 788 .30-30 Remington rifles with no problem whatsoever. These cases have been loaded over 20 times and they are just as good as when they were new. I neck size only and I do anneal the case necks after every 7 -10 firings to keep them from potentially cracking due to work hardening. Modern .30-30 brass is pretty much as strong as .270 /.30-06 brass, but due to the heavier case sections of magnum brass, magnum cases are stronger yet. w30wcf | |||
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Ackley did experiments to test the popular notion that rimmed brass can take higher pressures than rimless. He found they could take the same pressure [vol. 1 page 200]. Too bad he didn't live long enough to test the 10 mm with a large primer pocket ~.208" and an extractor cut ~337", making a primer pocket wall ~.065" thick. I don't know how to calculate the yield point for brass in the primer pocket wall with compression axially and tension tangentially, but I will find out. I have made a 37.5 kpsi 10 mm pistol shoot overloads until the brass gives. Then I shoot higher powder charges with modified 30-30 brass, which has less capacity, but takes a higher charge. Here is a picture of a modified 30-30 case fired with a 10 mm overload that causes a feed ramp case bulge: [ 09-13-2003, 21:56: Message edited by: Clark ] | |||
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That's a pretty well-defined bulge there!! ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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So Hobie, Your picture's point is that we should use 375 Winchester brass when loading a 220 grain RN in a 30/30? | |||
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There was a discussion somewhere about the relative strength of the various types of brass. I just thought it was apropos for this discussion (since it still lives on and on....). Mike Bellm (now that should start a discussion, believes/reasons that the .375 brass is why the cartridge can be successful in the Contender and that if the same pressures were loaded in .30-30 brass, breech thrust would exceed the capabilities of that system. Certainly, breech thrust and the springiness of the M1894 action are a component of this "discussion". What brass you use and how is up to you (not in my rifle thankyou ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} ). | |||
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quote:Maybe not, bur it certainly supports my theory that the .375 Win. case is better for higher pressure loads in the .32/40 chamber!! | ||
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Best for .30 Herrett, the various other ".30-30" wildcats, etc. Some people just have to redline everything. This is a good case for them. | |||
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hobie, Thank you for the sectional views. By design, the .375 Winchester was developed as a 52,000 p.s.i. cartridge and therefore the reason that Winchester opted for the slightly thicker case walls. However, if one looks at a sectioned .270 case (55,000 p.s.i. cartridge) you will find that the case walls are no thicker than the .30-30, at least in the FC cases I sectioned. Go figure. The cartridge case is only as strong as the chamber supporting it. w30wcf | |||
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w30wcf, Lot's of people don't read, don't look but do pontificate. Some do some really silly things that are hard for me to understand. I just thought I'd illustrate a portion of the discussion since nobody else would, or perhaps could... I don't use any .375 brass, don't know where I can get any in the quantity I want for the price I want (since I'm not motivated that strongly, it isn't a very high price ). I reload for the .25-35, 7-30 Waters, .30 Herrett, .30-30 and .38-55 so it is a topic of interest to me. | |||
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Hobie, I actually have the luxury of living in the same town as Mike Bellm, and know him. Very good guy and knowledgable. He almost made it to go out Elk hunting with me last year. ( He was going to carry a 270 Winchester, with some old 170 grain Round Nose speers, if it is of any interest) I will drop by his shop sometime soon and discuss this top with him. I will post the results of that conversation on here. Stay tuned folks. ( PS, For what it is worth, I am a Virgina native, myself. Down west of Roanoke. Page County near you is named for some of my ancestors, on grand dad's side) ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} [ 09-18-2003, 02:10: Message edited by: seafire/ B17G ] | |||
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seafire, That would be great for you to talk to Mike. He might remember the discussion on the old TC-List as the pics were posted by Norm Johnson then. Also, great that you're from around here. Sorry "you" moved out. | |||
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QUOTE:Mike Bellm (now that should start a discussion, believes/reasons that the .375 brass is why the cartridge can be successful in the Contender and that if the same pressures were loaded in .30-30 brass, breech thrust would exceed the capabilities of that system. Certainly, breech thrust and the springiness of the M1894 action are a component of this "discussion". UNQUOTE: While I will not disagree with the comment on the springiness of the Winchester M94 action, I'm not so sure I agree with the rest of the comment. Bear with me as I'm not sure how to explain this. The 30-30 case has a head measurement of .506" as does the .375 Win. Now, if I understand things correctly, if both were loaded to 30,000 PSI or even 60,000 PSI, depending on the cartridge, the breech thrust would be the same for whichever load was used. So, if you were to load a 30-30 case to X amount of pressure, and the .375 Win. case to the SAME pressure, the thrust of the case on the breech, or bolt if you prefer would have to be the same. Whether or not the case would stand up to the pressure (In the instance where 30-30 brass is loaded to .375 Win. pressures) is another matter. Regardless of how tight a chamber or bolt lock up is, that brass case is still the weakest link in the equation. Paul B. | |||
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Paul, You've got to talk to Mike about this. I'd hate to misquote and I don't think I've got the applicable posts on the subject (but I'll look). However, the short story from Mike is that if the .375 Win was loaded in .30-30 brass (see the pic above), the Contender (old style, the G2 did not exist at the time) would not be able to handle without stretching and ultimately failing to be functional (perhaps NOT catastrophically). ***** I asked Mike to come here and explain. Or, you can go to his forum, the link given in my sig. [ 09-19-2003, 00:32: Message edited by: Hobie ] | |||
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Paul, Mike tried to post, here's his response: quote:My take is that Mike's opinion is mostly applicable to the Contender because of how it is constructed. I think that it applies here because the rear locking M94 action has a bit of "spring" to it. Further, I believe that he worked for/with Mr. Ackley and I think that gives him a better perspective than many of us... [ 09-20-2003, 22:30: Message edited by: Hobie ] | |||
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Hobie; I have been too busy to get ahold of Mike B. however you beat me to the punch. I do want to talk with him about the 30/30, 220 grain loads, and maybe the 375 brass would be better. However I also understood before it was pointed out that heavier brass means getting to max chamber pressure quicker, meaning heavier brass might not be the answer to the problem. As far as being back in Virginia. Unfortunately Virginia is not the same Virginia I grew up in. That really makes me sad. I remember when Virginia was a southern state. I was raised a southern, and will always be one. Moreover, you would understand, I was raised a Virginia Southerner. That is based on the history of Virginia, not what is politically correct. The Civil War was over states rights, not slavery, which everyone wants to base it on now a days, because Jesse Jackson and every other liberal wants to. Once upon a time you could raise a confederate flag and feed proud of the Army of Northern Virginia and its accomplishments against superior numbers, without critism from transplanted New Yorker living in Roanoke. When I was in High School, at the Friday night football games, the band played the national anthem and not missing a beat, broke into Dixie. The crowd had their hands over their hearts for the national anthem, when the band broke into Dixie, people cheered with pride. That is the Virginia I miss. Way too many people now. Of course where I live in Southern Oregon is a great substitute. Tons of mountains, and a lot of out door activities. Not crowded at all. Still have to put up with idiotic government, tons of welfare abusers who don't want to work, tons of fucking hippies who don't know that the 60s is over ( at 55 yrs of age) too much drug abuse. However, If Virginia wanted to suscede from UNION once again, don't think I would not be back to my native state in a heart beat. I am left over from the old crowd, a Virginian first, and an American second. What do you expect tho? I am a direct decendant from the people that got off at Jamestowne in 1607. My ancestors were fighting on the frontier in the French and Indian War, fought in the Revolution and All wore grey proudly in 1861 to 1865. I don't take that lightly. And not one of them in 1861 owned a slave or had any intention or reason to own one. Most of them were ministers, the rest farmers. [ 09-21-2003, 23:16: Message edited by: seafire/ B17G ] | |||
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coming in way late here: sam fadala, in his fine little book on the model 94, lists some 748 loads that he lifted from a lyman manual, i believe. i no longer have a model 94 in .30-30, but when i did, it absolutely loved one of sam's loads: 36.5 grains of 748 behind a speer 170-grainer. an NEF single shot absolutely ate alive 165-grain hornady boattail spire points over 36.5 grains of 748. sam's book said even 37 grains showed no signs of high pressure, but accuracy degraded slightly. i sure didn't have any problems with those loads. excellent case life; no expansion rings. i used to throw away hunting-loaded .30-30 cases after four re-loads anyhow. just my 2. interesting thread. | |||
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hi fish how many fps did you get with hornady and 748 loading? regards danny | |||
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i don't have a chrono. but sam's books said 2,300 from a 20-inch carbine barrel. this is quite a step up from factory ammo at 1,950-2,100. killed a deer at 196 measured yards with that 170-grain load from a scoped 94. beautiful bullet performance. deer leaped into the air. dead when it hit the ground. small hole in; big hole out. by the way, if you're a .30-30 fan, i recommend this book. i think amazon.com still carries it. it is titled something like "Winchester's Model 94, America's Rifle." i bought mine 10 or more years ago. nice tuning tips, too, and loads of stuff on the ackley improved version of the .30-30. | |||
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I have a Win 94 and I went out and got 3 pounds of 748, and now all I need is some Sierra's 220 gr .308" bullets to replicate the load of this thread by seafire/ B17G. I HAVE a chrono. | |||
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Clark I am sure I don't have to tell you to work up.... ( use your head as I like to say). I do use a factory 150 grain load to set up my seating die with for length. With the 35 grains of the 748, the 220 is seated all the way down, past the cannelure. I still crimp the bullet lightly with a Lee 30/30 crimp die. I have thought about getting a NEF break open in 30/30, to play with this. A 220 seated to the cannelure in a 30/30 looks well balanced if you like that Old Cartridge look, like I do. However I also have a 30/40 Krag that I load the 220 in. It looks like an overgrown 30/30 case pretty much. I have used the old 220 grain a lot back in the Upper Midwest ( MN and WI) with pretty conclusive results, in a 30/06. Have taken deer at 250 yds with that load. They went straight down. Good luck in your playing with it. | |||
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Seafire, You're family is old Virginia and I'm one of those damn Yankees. You'll be pleased to know that some of my folks were Dutch and founded New Amsterdam, some were English (Plymouth), some were already here and like you they were no doubt bemoaning the changing neighborhood! I know exactly what you mean about Virginia being too crowded. I've only been here since 1965 and the loss of farmland (game habitat) is amazing. While we've got more turkeys (deer is a whole other issue), we've got no where near the dove, quail, or rabbits that we used to have. Some of this might be the coyotes, but I doubt it. I often think I'm sort of like Daniel Boone. When he found out that there was a settlement only 36 miles from his cabin he turned to Rebecca and told her they had to move as it was getting too crowded! However, the Stonewall Brigade Band still plays Dixie first thing for every concert (they do 8-10, every Monday night during the summer), and Stonewall and Marse Robert still hold pride of place on the NG armory walls right along with George Washington. The Civil War and Reconstruction are still recognized as a period of sacrifice and contribution worthy of recognition. Most often the young men and women making sacrifices for us, today, are also honored as they should be. | |||
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I visited my grandparent's farm in Bristol Virginia in 1956, when I was 5, but the only wildlife I can remember is cardnals, crows, and fireflies  | |||
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quote:I don't remember much from when I was 5 either! | |||
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Hobie, Thank you for posting the information from Mike. It follows my line of thinking as well. Awhile back there was some concern on the Marlin Talk forum about primers backing out in a fellow's .30-30. I answered that it is reasonable to say that every gun has headspace, that is, a space between the rear of the case and the bolt face when the case is in the forward position. I believe the maximum headspace allowable in the industry is something like .015". Rimmed cartridges like the .30-30 were designed to headspace on the rim. In other words the headspace in rifles chambered for rimmed cartridges are is measured from the bolt face to the back end of the barrel. When the firing pin strikes the primer, it pushes the cartridge forward to its forward most position. The powder ignites and cartridge is locked forward in the chamber due to the pressure area on the internal sidewall of the cartridge case being greater than on the base. The primer is then free to back out to the point where it is supported by the bolt face on cartridges generating of up to, say, 45,000 p.s.i. or so chamber pressure. Of course this also depends on the physical characteristics of the cartridge case and the condition of the chamber. Since the .30-30 develops less than that amount of pressure in factory loads, the amount that the primer protrudes gives some indication of the headspace in a particular gun. In higher intensity cartridges such as the .270 and similar cartridges developing over 50,000 p.s.i., there is enough pressure to exceed the elastic strength of the brass and the lower end of the cartridge case will stretch to meet the bolt face. In this situation, if there is enough headspace, the case will show signs of separation, or worse, total separation. Of course, the physical characteristics of the cartridge case and the chamber also play a role here. I agree that based on your sectioned cases and yours and Mike's information, it would take more pressure to stretch the .375 brass, but the question is how much. No doubt, the somewhat reduced case capacity of the .375 would need to operate at somewhat higher pressures to get the same velocity that one would get from standard .30-30 brass which I know will take repeated firings at 55,000 p.s.i. per my other post. One thing I do have some doubt with is the thought that the Model '94 action is "springy". My feeling is that certainly there is some clearance or backlash, but once the clearances are taken up, the steel doesn't compress. My .05 worth anyway. w30wcf | |||
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Jack, I think that the M94 action is "springy" because I can't think of another word to describe the way the action responds to breech thrust from high pressure loads. Also, when you operate the lever after firing such a load, I can feel the "spring" in the action as it handles the fired brass. Perhaps there's a better word but right now that's beyond me. What is true is that this is a rear locking action. The bolt is longer than the M92 bolt and not as heavy as the M71/1886 bolt. These other 2 models use substantially the same basic design for the action. You can load too "hot" and set back the locking lugs in the mortise, AND the bolt flexes. The more pressure in the case the greater the breech thrust and the greater the flex of the bolt. I have no opinion on this subject other than that:
One of those was a brass strength discussion. Hence the picture. My opinions are not necessarily in agreement with Mike Bellm's and his opinion has been quoted in full without any alteration. It has certainly been a fullsome discussion and I think there have been a lot of digressions here (but not like on some threads). However, it was well worth the time. | |||
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Was the .375 Winchester `1894 in the "Big Bore" configurations like the .307 and .356? | |||
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quote:Yes. The first Big Bore. Quite frankly I've always thought they were ugly even if they did have to strengthen the guns to handle 50,000+ psi. | |||
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I read that the 303 Enfield has a "springy action", and I thought, "That's a load of B.S. I am going to do a stress analysis and calculate the sprinyness." I did, and it IS springy. The lugs in the rear and lots of thin metal in front of that in compresion. | |||
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For what it is worth: This whole experimentation started when I had a friend who asked me to load up something that gave the maximum hitting power in his 30/30 for Elk. That was the only rifle he could afford at the time, one for him and one for the wife, instead of ONE 30/06 like he wanted. I did find in testing that it gave great accuracy in a 1966 Vintage model 94, that has been a terrible shooter since day one, with anything down the barrel. I have even tried downloading .311 180 grain RN's to see if that helped accuracy, and it did not. For a while I had wondered if it was not a 32 Special that had accidently been labeled 30/30 at the factory. I really don't think the brass is an issue about taking the pressure. I am more inclined to question the action. However it has functioned fine in the 30/30s it has been tested and used in.. It gives no extraction problems which would be indicative of higher pressures right off the bat. I would love to have a Ruger Number one in 30/30. I would have no hesitation of loading it with a 220 grain RN at all then. It would make a great brush cartridge for Elk. Just wished old Rimmed Cartridges were more popular than they are anymore. ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} Oh well..... | |||
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hi Why not a compromise loading 3030 with 190 grain at 2100! like the old Savage 303? the case capacity is nearly the same and if this round has been loaded at factory for nearly 100 years ago then it would not be a problem to duplicate it with today's modern powder!190 grain @2100 would do a very good brush load. regards danny | |||
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Danny, good point. Loaded to 2100 fps 100 yrs ago. However, in those days, they did not have computers, with chat boards full of guys who have books on their shelves that say that you should not be able to SAFELY get 2100 fps out of a 303 Savage case. It was just gone out and done, and not encumbered by a lot of negative people complaining although they never really tried personally what they are bitching about. Sort of like me telling you what Sweden is like, even tho I have never been there, I have read about it in several books. To some of these guys tho that doesn't matter to them. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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I've had several savage .303's and the factory specs said a 190 gr. bullet at 1950 FPS from a 26" barrel. Never had a chance to chrony the load as you couldn't get chrony's back then. I have loaded 30-30 ammo with the RCBS #30-180-FN cast bullet which casts out to 190 gr. in wheel weight metal. Chronied those with W-748 powder at 2000 FPS, no leading, and just as accurate as jacketed bullets in that beat up old 94 truck gun of mine. Good deer killer too, although all shots had been broadside or close to it and no bullets recovered. Big "W" in all their wisdom never furnished that bullet in the 30-30, nor did they ever make it available as a component. Sam Fadala in his excellent book on the M94 Winchester had to buy .303 Sav. ammo to scrounge the bullets for his 30-30. He gives some interesting data in the book. If you like the cartridge, then it's a book well worth having. Paul B. | |||
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I've got some of the Winchester 190 gr. .303 Savage bullets but don't feel I have enough to do load development with them. Fadala has done such with pulled bullets. He's also written about loading the .303 Savage to better performance with 150 gr. bullets. | |||
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Paul B, I have the same RCBS mold and in heat treated wheel weights, bullets weigh 189 grs. A capacity load of slow burning H414 will push this bullet to almost 2,200 f.p.s. in my 1894-1994C's 26" barrel with good accuracy. I also have an "Old West" bullet mold that drops a 205 gr. flat nosed .30-30 bullet. Again, slow burning H414 gets the nod and pushes it out of the 26" barrel of the same rifle at an average of 2,048 f.p.s. with very good accuracy. Heres an image of the heaviest factory loaded bullet for the .30-30 - a 180 gr. "belted bullet" by PETERS circa 1939-1950 from the John Witzel collection. Advertised velocity was 2,120 f.p.s..  w30wcf [ 09-29-2003, 02:52: Message edited by: w30wcf ] | |||
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HI I wish a factory(like win,rem or federal) begin to load 3030 with heavy 190-200 gr at high energy level for brush hunting . the 3030 is underloaded and under rated good hunting cartidge.federal has HE loads for almost all calibers except 3030 danny | |||
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w30WCF: Thanks for that post. I have kicked myself for not buying a 303 Savage a couple of years ago in a shop located in an isolated part of Oregon. They had about 7 of them on the shelf, but wanted $400.00 for them, which I thought was overpriced at the time. Mentioning that you used H 414 powder, because of the low pressure. Since it is the same as W 760, I am going to load up some of those 220 grainers, and try the H 414 powder, ( working up of course, etc) I do think the the case design in a 30/30 has something to do with that type of powder burning efficiently in that case. Thanks for the idea. | |||
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Ok, I'm a biologist, but along the way I have studied a good four years of chemisrty. In response to the question regarding why overpressure signs can often disappear with increased propellent, I have a hypothesis. I believe what is happening here is that the powder is not receiving sufficient activating energy per restraints (e.g. case size, rate at which powder burns, &c) to trip its total exothermic reaction (which the controlled projectile system is based). What is likely occuring is a "smothering effect" which disallows the spark-oxygen-propellent mechanism to reach max potential. However, this overloading can be extemely dangernous in the instance where the mechanism is carried out (big gamble), and internal pressure finds equalization through the top of the receiver instead of out the bore...where it belongs. It could spell EMERGENCY, and should be avoided. I too am for getting more gun, instead of more outta less. Nevertheless, I think it's great people are out there with keen interest in this perversion that is handloading. Keep rockin... P.S.In the U.S. we do, typically (cept for Dems) pay our own Medical insurance. | |||
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