This summer I road a Percheron Morgan cross and he was enormous, but wow was it a nice fit on my nearly 6'9 frame and 300 pounds. Kind of wide across the back but sure footed and strong in the Granite Chief Wilderness.

If you were my size and you were going to be in the Klamath and Siskyou Mountains in Northern California, what type of horse would you have?

I am looking forward to stock in my life again other than some pack stock I used when hiking.

I think you nailed it with a draft- draft cross. At 6'9"- 300#s you're a big man, you need a good sized horse. The Percheron carried men clad in metal, so probably can handle your weight without too much problem. From what I know they're very good minded horses. Morgan is a pretty interesting cross, they were bred to be an all around horse. My Dad usually had something 1/2 Morgan, they were good horses.

My late uncle liked some Morgan in a trail/mountain horse. He primarily packed mules in the Wallowas and Hell's Canyon, but having lived in the Rogue Valley for 40 years, I can personally vouch for how steep and rugged the Siskiyou/Klamaths are!

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
I think you nailed it with a draft- draft cross. At 6'9"- 300#s you're a big man, you need a good sized horse. The Percheron carried men clad in metal, so probably can handle your weight without too much problem. From what I know they're very good minded horses. Morgan is a pretty interesting cross, they were bred to be an all around horse. My Dad usually had something 1/2 Morgan, they were good horses.

They said the cross was a product of poor fencing! I loved Morgans as a kid and so does my family for generations only I a big dude.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
My late uncle liked some Morgan in a trail/mountain horse. He primarily packed mules in the Wallowas and Hell's Canyon, but having lived in the Rogue Valley for 40 years, I can personally vouch for how steep and rugged the Siskiyou/Klamaths are!

Bill so can my poor knees...being a forester and biologist in timber they are gone.

I'd put more stock in the individual horse than the breed..A big throughbred or quarter horse at 16 hands or a bit more would work, an be considerably more atheletic IMO..but the footing is good in that area and you'll be mostly on trails..I'm 6-2, 200 lbs. most of the year an I like a 15 hand horse..Its so much easier to get on and off if your on a slope and slopes are common as hell in the mountains. In fact Idaho has no level ground North of Sun Valley!

Copy that.. Sure footed is a must, and we try to leave the trails once inland so we are truly away from everyone

A side benefit of the draft cross are the feet. Big, stout and few problems. Fetlocks and knees the same. Won't win too many races but heck for stout and solid, meaning sound over years of hard work.
Thoroughbreds and Quarter breeds have had the feet bred off of them. Draft puts it back.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
A side benefit of the draft cross are the feet. Big, stout and few problems. Fetlocks and knees the same. Won't win too many races but heck for stout and solid, meaning sound over years of hard work.
Thoroughbreds and Quarter breeds have had the feet bred off of them. Draft puts it back.

If they have had their feet bred off of them as you state then how in the hell do they race?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
A side benefit of the draft cross are the feet. Big, stout and few problems. Fetlocks and knees the same. Won't win too many races but heck for stout and solid, meaning sound over years of hard work.
Thoroughbreds and Quarter breeds have had the feet bred off of them. Draft puts it back.

If they have had their feet bred off of them as you state then how in the hell do they race?

I think he means logger's boots versus running shoes..at least thats what I took from it??

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
A side benefit of the draft cross are the feet. Big, stout and few problems. Fetlocks and knees the same. Won't win too many races but heck for stout and solid, meaning sound over years of hard work.
Thoroughbreds and Quarter breeds have had the feet bred off of them. Draft puts it back.

If they have had their feet bred off of them as you state then how in the hell do they race?

JWP, the alley at the race trace is not a pretty sight. Make us hunters look like a bunch of greenpeace-rs.

I think Mr. Atkins makes a good point about considering the individual horse, I just assume everyone wants a good minded one. A big QH or TB might weigh in 1300#s, 1400 at most. That would mean for a horse you're planning on using hard you are a significant % of his body wt. A 16 hand percheron would not be any taller than a 16 hd. QH/TB; but it would carry more heft. Best of luck what ever you choose.

There is a Foundation QH suspected of being Percheron. They used him because he won lap and tap races, a big deal in those days.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
A side benefit of the draft cross are the feet. Big, stout and few problems. Fetlocks and knees the same. Won't win too many races but heck for stout and solid, meaning sound over years of hard work.
Thoroughbreds and Quarter breeds have had the feet bred off of them. Draft puts it back.

If they have had their feet bred off of them as you state then how in the hell do they race?

JWP, the alley at the race trace is not a pretty sight. Make us hunters look like a bunch of greenpeace-rs.

I think Mr. Atkins makes a good point about considering the individual horse, I just assume everyone wants a good minded one. A big QH or TB might weigh in 1300#s, 1400 at most. That would mean for a horse you're planning on using hard you are a significant % of his body wt. A 16 hand percheron would not be any taller than a 16 hd. QH/TB; but it would carry more heft. Best of luck what ever you choose.

There is a Foundation QH suspected of being Percheron. They used him because he won lap and tap races, a big deal in those days.

Maybe I took his commit wrong. I know of nothing that requires strong sound feet and legs more than racing. The pounding, stress and need for sound feet and legs especially the front legs and feet is well known.
I would also consider the individual horse, I have seen smallish horses out work and out pull larger ones as well as the reverse. Same as with people.

I think you probably took it right, but there are a lot of race horses that get put down right in the alley if they break down, and plenty do. Race horse breeders are probably the purest breeders in the world, if a horse isn't fast, it isn't nothing.
That said, the QH has had a lot of the hoof bred out of it by the pleasure and halter show people. Blame bad judging, resulting in bad breeders, from a poor understanding of what a good horse looks like. There is no reason a pleasure horse who spends its time doing circles in 6" of sand should go lame from a lope that can't get out of it's own way. I have some pretty resentful feelings about what poor judging has encouraged breeders to do. Breaks my heart to look at a 16 hand QH on a O shoe.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
I think you probably took it right, but there are a lot of race horses that get put down right in the alley if they break down, and plenty do. Race horse breeders are probably the purest breeders in the world, if a horse isn't fast, it isn't nothing.
That said, the QH has had a lot of the hoof bred out of it by the pleasure and halter show people. Blame bad judging, resulting in bad breeders, from a poor understanding of what a good horse looks like. There is no reason a pleasure horse who spends its time doing circles in 6" of sand should go lame from a lope that can't get out of it's own way. I have some pretty resentful feelings about what poor judging has encouraged breeders to do. Breaks my heart to look at a 16 hand QH on a O shoe.

Halter horse have been bred incorrectly because of improper judging, that is true. The standard for judge has not changed, the judges did not follow the standard. Years ago the halter horse and performance horse were one and the same. To become a supreme champion a QH had to win at racing, performance and halter. Balance is an important part of judging a QH a good set of withers is part of balance. There were halter horses winning that had no withers. This is wrong as you can't keep a saddle on a horse with no withers. Racing QH's today have excellent balance, conformation and disposition. A horse bred to be a race horse revolutionized the cutting industry Doc Bar' sire and dam were both racing Quarters. Doc Bar is in the cutting hall of fame for siring cutters and Doc Bar never saw a cutting arena.
The AQHA is attempting to clean up the halter judging.

You nailed it. What so many don't understand is that if you breed for performance, by necessity conformation will follow.
Doc Bar couldn't out run a fat armadillo, but crossed on those Poco Bueno mares he was magic. I've got babies with SLL on their papers, and rode a lot of Docs Jack Sprat horses, crossed on the Leo's Question mares. A little too hot for most, but God what wonderful horses when not rushed. My one boy on that cross didn't want to cut anything that hadn't just ate his brother on the back fence. Give him a looped eared brindled brama looking to run off and he was in heaven. I tried to never let it show but he picked a lot of our cuts.

Just want to add, I've given AQHA judges hell for not being able to explain why some horse that can't get out of it's own way wins at Halter or Pleasure, and a retired race horse, something that can catch a cow with a 150 yard head start in 200 yards can't get marked.
Theres some blame to get credited to cutting horse judges for the 13 hand QH.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Just want to add, I've given AQHA judges hell for not being able to explain why some horse that can't get out of it's own way wins at Halter or Pleasure, and a retired race horse, something that can catch a cow with a 150 yard head start in 200 yards can't get marked.
Theres some blame to get credited to cutting horse judges for the 13 hand QH.

I personally donot like a 13 hand QH, but I can see there ability to move quickly in a short space. Even I pole bending events smaller QH have an advantage moving quickly through the poles without knocking them down. The QH is a versatile breed with traits tailored more towards certain events. I judge a horses on an individual basis. I have smallish QH pull cows that larger ones failed to pull, can't underestimate desire, will and a big heart.

I do not like the small QH either, but again thank the judges for making them. As much as SLL did for the gene pool, I was in the Little Peppy Club. My last little Peppy mare is out of a very good Leo's Question mare. You would wear out your jeans before you'd ride her down. She's right at 14.3, and never took a lame step in her life. I'm breeding her to a Peptoboonsmal Stud.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Just want to add, I've given AQHA judges hell for not being able to explain why some horse that can't get out of it's own way wins at Halter or Pleasure, and a retired race horse, something that can catch a cow with a 150 yard head start in 200 yards can't get marked.
Theres some blame to get credited to cutting horse judges for the 13 hand QH.

Surely you can't believe the show ring reflects the real world. Halter, the Feed em and Lead em class. Should be a breed of their own. Quarter horses are a good example of a breed totally destroyed by the whims of the horse show crowd. Gotta love those tiny feet they've bred over the years, not to mention the genetic diseases like HYPP they've created.

Grizz

Just looking for a stable mount that still can carry some gear and not overburden it.

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Just want to add, I've given AQHA judges hell for not being able to explain why some horse that can't get out of it's own way wins at Halter or Pleasure, and a retired race horse, something that can catch a cow with a 150 yard head start in 200 yards can't get marked.
Theres some blame to get credited to cutting horse judges for the 13 hand QH.

Surely you can't believe the show ring reflects the real world. Halter, the Feed em and Lead em class. Should be a breed of their own. Quarter horses are a good example of a breed totally destroyed by the whims of the horse show crowd. Gotta love those tiny feet they've bred over the years, not to mention the genetic diseases like HYPP they've created.

Grizz

HYPP came from a horse named Impressive a genetic mutation. A QH can not be registered if they carry HYPP. They must be tested for HYPP if they have any of his blood.
Halter classes did not ruin an entire breed, only a small portion.

Richard, most racing QH's are big, but some of the very best were smallish. 14 to 14.2 hands. Even pair a large mare and stud sometimes the off spring will be smallish as well as the other way around.

My comments about feet include the show and racing class of QH and Tb. A shocking amount of failures occur in both breeds occur because of the tiny feet and those occur in protected footing environments of Ring and track as mentioned by others in this thread. PETA has some truly ghastly tape of Racing failures on the track to try and stop the sport that I came upon by accident the other day. One of a very fast two year old filly shattering a front leg by simply over powering the Immature bone structure is illustrative of the problem. No trails or Rocks needed. There is a HUGE gap between the feet of modern hot bred QH and TB and a Percheron as it pertains to Mountain duty. Many Percheron could exist very well in a pack string for years with only a good trimming a few times a year. No iron needed. I have had some good Hot bred horses and have used them in the mountains of Colorado in rough duty after they won National Championships in the ring in Roping and Speed events. My comments applied to those horses under me as well. It took great care and Iron shoes to keep my horses sound in the ring and on the trails. Without them, they would have been dead lame. They suffered from thin walls, thin soles, and small diameter just like the rest of the horses I am alluding too. Often needed pads to cover thin soles as well to protect against the rocks. I love my "performance" horses especially their ability to move those small feet very, very fast. Doesn't blind me to their deficiencies when faced with a 300 pound man and mountain duty on rocky trails.
Does anyone want to discuss the leg above the feet differences between a ring or track horse and a Percheron? Not trying to offend but seriously asking if a discussion of this is of value to people.
Have a great day and I hope part of it will be enjoying a horse. Just went out and fed one and watched another graze in the pasture a bit.
Best regards,

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
My comments about feet include the show and racing class of QH and Tb. A shocking amount of failures occur in both breeds occur because of the tiny feet and those occur in protected footing environments of Ring and track as mentioned by others in this thread. PETA has some truly ghastly tape of Racing failures on the track to try and stop the sport that I came upon by accident the other day. One of a very fast two year old filly shattering a front leg by simply over powering the Immature bone structure is illustrative of the problem. No trails or Rocks needed. There is a HUGE gap between the feet of modern hot bred QH and TB and a Percheron as it pertains to Mountain duty. Many Percheron could exist very well in a pack string for years with only a good trimming a few times a year. No iron needed. I have had some good Hot bred horses and have used them in the mountains of Colorado in rough duty after they won National Championships in the ring in Roping and Speed events. My comments applied to those horses under me as well. It took great care and Iron shoes to keep my horses sound in the ring and on the trails. Without them, they would have been dead lame. They suffered from thin walls, thin soles, and small diameter just like the rest of the horses I am alluding too. Often needed pads to cover thin soles as well to protect against the rocks. I love my "performance" horses especially their ability to move those small feet very, very fast. Doesn't blind me to their deficiencies when faced with a 300 pound man and mountain duty on rocky trails.
Does anyone want to discuss the leg above the feet differences between a ring or track horse and a Percheron? Not trying to offend but seriously asking if a discussion of this is of value to people.
Have a great day and I hope part of it will be enjoying a horse. Just went out and fed one and watched another graze in the pasture a bit.
Best regards,

take home is the leg sufficiency compared to the Ferrari

QH and TB have not bred the feet off of them. My horses have good sound feet, you paint with a broad brush.

333_OKH,

take a look at line-bred Hancock & Blue Valentine or Blue Apache Hancock in the background.

These are old school quarter horses that are stout, strong and calm.


www.wyohancockhorses.net/apache.html

www.hancockhorses.com/article-baru.html

www.hancockhorses.com/index.html

Well as someone who was raised around horses and still works cattle in the high mountain country in Idaho, and grew up in the rough as hell mountains of the Texas Big Bend, and who presently at 80 years old is still team roping at least once a week, I have a pretty good idea of what I like in a horse.

Quarter horses and Throughbreds have always worked for me and when I need to rope a cow or slide off a shale slide, I want a quick footed, atheletic kind of horse with small black hard feet, not a big clumsy draft horse. When I'm getting off and on all day long, I don't want a 17 or 18 hands horse, and you sure don't want to step off on the downhill side of a mountain simply because its a long ways the the dirt. Draft horses or better yet half draft horses are fine on trails and can step over blow down timber, and can pack gear well enough..but lets remember horses are bred to do certain disaplanes and that is very important. Draft horses are bred to plow, pack, and relie solely on size and strength, they are not bred to ride IMO, nor to do ranch work or hunting in rough country.

As to quarter horses and throughbreds having the feet bred off them, I don't think I have ever heard such nonsence, they are bred to have feet and bone to match their size, just like a draft horse and such statements only show me a lack of knowledge on the subject as any real horseman would know better than to make such a statement.

My horses are quarter horses, my heel horse is 14.5 hands, my head horse is 15.3 hands, IMO that is the size they need to be for the disaplanes I use them for. I use them both to round up cattle in some damn rough country with no trails, I use them for hunting and I can ride where deer go, I don't tie them up and hunt of foot, I hunt off the horse.

My point being there are all kinds of horses and they are all good for what they are bred to do, some of every breed are good and some of every breed are not so good, like human athelets, but using the correct horse for the job at hand is like using the right tool to do any job.

quote:

As to quarter horses and throughbreds having the feet bred off them, I don't think I have ever heard such nonsence, they are bred to have feet and bone to match their size, just like a draft horse and such statements only show me a lack of knowledge on the subject as any real horseman would know better than to make such a statement.

Ray,
Don't know if I have ever had a real horseman not make that statement in my years of horsemanship. Your the first. I am quite sure you are a real horseman from your experience and where you live/grew up. I respect your opinions. I remember my dad my uncle make the same comment about the "modern" horses back in the 1960's! The best horse we had at the time, and maybe the best horse ever for us, was a progeny of a draft mare bred to Chief Orange Juice a Calvary Remount Thoroughbred stallion during the last years of that program. There was nothing he could not and did not do. Solid 1 foot on his best day but really was only shod rarely. Went on a barefoot 2 most of the time. Run like the wind. Gun Broke and packed whatever you put on him. Lived to be 32. Same kind of Country you live in.
I watched a lot of track horses break down, most from the foot to the knee. Many Arena horses as well. The breeding for Speed optimizes muscle type and placement, flexibility, Air processing and drive. Not much focus is on Feet. The breeding for speed and agility also picked up thin walls and thin soles. I really don't think was a specific goal, more an unintended consequence. Also picked up thin skin as many of the hot breeds shed heat well because of it. We can disagree on the view but I stick with my admittedly broad brush statement. The 2012 AQHA All Around High Point Horse of the year is a few miles away and I don't think there is a horse in that Barn that wears a shoe bigger than 0. Most are 00. I don't think any of them would be my choice in the slide rock. I had hundreds of speed and pleasure horses go through my hands and only a rare few had truly good hard and tough black feet like you describe. Most with 0 or 00 feet. Just to echo your love Ray, I loved my good speed and roping horses. Multiple World and National Championship winners have worn my saddles. All in the training pen. Many in the competition pen. Some in the Winners Photo scene. However my love of that type of horse hasn't clouded my ability to look below the fetlock and see the difference between those and a 1/2 draft Mountain horse the OP was asking about. The Original Poster was asking about a bit of riding and Packing in what looks to be tough country. He didn't mention winning at either the AQHA Worlds, Lazy E, or Ruidoso. I gave him what I consider good advice. Admittedly with a broad brush.
jwp475,
I am sure your horses do have good sound feet. Glad you share them with us and wish you good fortune and happiness from having them.
Best regards,

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Just want to add, I've given AQHA judges hell for not being able to explain why some horse that can't get out of it's own way wins at Halter or Pleasure, and a retired race horse, something that can catch a cow with a 150 yard head start in 200 yards can't get marked.
Theres some blame to get credited to cutting horse judges for the 13 hand QH.

Surely you can't believe the show ring reflects the real world. Halter, the Feed em and Lead em class. Should be a breed of their own. Quarter horses are a good example of a breed totally destroyed by the whims of the horse show crowd. Gotta love those tiny feet they've bred over the years, not to mention the genetic diseases like HYPP they've created.

Grizz

HYPP came from a horse named Impressive a genetic mutation. A QH can not be registered if they carry HYPP. They must be tested for HYPP if they have any of his blood.
Halter classes did not ruin an entire breed, only a small portion.

Richard, most racing QH's are big, but some of the very best were smallish. 14 to 14.2 hands. Even pair a large mare and stud sometimes the off spring will be smallish as well as the other way around.

HYPP was a deep dark secret, only whispered about for years and even now, some halter breeders think of it as a desirable trait, since it promotes that double muscled look they love, till the horse keels over, dead.

"This horse has an ancestor known to carry HYPP, designated under AQHA rules as a genetic defect, AQHA recommends testing to confirm presence or absence of this gene."

No testing, no problem.

Impressive had other traits/faults. Whether they were genetic or not seems to be in question by some. I had the misfortune to have some of his get around the barn in years past. Pretty hard not to with 2250 foals and estimated 55,000 living descendants in 2003.

"In his showing days, Impressive changed hands a number of times, perhaps his most famous owner being Dean Landers, who also owned the famous halter stallions Two Eyed Jack, Coy's Bonanza, and Sonny Dee Bar. Although Impressive raced for a short time after Landers sold him to Fennel Brown, he was quickly excluded from any performance discipline due to pedal osteitis , leaving halter as his only choice."

Mr. Atkins, I m going to respectfully disagree. It is admirable that some of the poorer traits existing in QH's have not shown up on your ranch, or the people you do business with. But these gentlemen are right; there's segments of the QH population where bone and foot has been breed out. Besides HYPP in Halter and Pleasure Horses (note that we now have all forms of sub type of QHs), we got HERDA in the cutting horses, that's where the skin is loose and just falls off. The carriers keep getting breed. There's two things missing from modern day breeding programs; one thing is a .22. The other thing is, when say a King Ranch mare got breed, her baby had a job before it was born. If it wasn't going to work it got sterilized or neutered and sold if useable. If it was a bad horse -conformation/temperament - it got put down. Removed from the gene pool. The typical backyard breeder won't do what is necessary to improve the breed.
As to the race horses, they are highly bred. The problem with them is they're used really hard from being a yearling. You use a horse hard a year before their knees have a chance to grow together you're just asking for trouble. If the people that promote this crap, if they really liked horses, their first race would be as a 4 year old. I would like to know if it is only in AQHA (& I guess Paints by association) that a white hoof increases the chance of thin hoof walls? Anyone know outside of AQHA?

To the OP, the Percheron is known to be good minded, and athletic. They cross the Percheron into the European breeds for jumping and dressage. Maybe Hunters too. I think you were making a good choice.

333_OKH,

I didn't know that you wanted a racing horse with hooves bred out to haul your 300# ass up and down the mountains.

What do you think about those Hancock's?

Hooves have not been bred off, that is a ridiculous premise. Every breed has a few that are not up to par.

Fury1 didn't post all of his Google info from wickapedi, that state only 4% of Impressives offspring is affected with HYPP and if one of the decendents is affected he can not be registered.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well as someone who was raised around horses and still works cattle in the high mountain country in Idaho, and grew up in the rough as hell mountains of the Texas Big Bend, and who presently at 80 years old is still team roping at least once a week, I have a pretty good idea of what I like in a horse.

Quarter horses and Throughbreds have always worked for me and when I need to rope a cow or slide off a shale slide, I want a quick footed, atheletic kind of horse with small black hard feet, not a big clumsy draft horse. When I'm getting off and on all day long, I don't want a 17 or 18 hands horse, and you sure don't want to step off on the downhill side of a mountain simply because its a long ways the the dirt. Draft horses or better yet half draft horses are fine on trails and can step over blow down timber, and can pack gear well enough..but lets remember horses are bred to do certain disaplanes and that is very important. Draft horses are bred to plow, pack, and relie solely on size and strength, they are not bred to ride IMO, nor to do ranch work or hunting in rough country.

As to quarter horses and throughbreds having the feet bred off them, I don't think I have ever heard such nonsence, they are bred to have feet and bone to match their size, just like a draft horse and such statements only show me a lack of knowledge on the subject as any real horseman would know better than to make such a statement.

My horses are quarter horses, my heel horse is 14.5 hands, my head horse is 15.3 hands, IMO that is the size they need to be for the disaplanes I use them for. I use them both to round up cattle in some damn rough country with no trails, I use them for hunting and I can ride where deer go, I don't tie them up and hunt of foot, I hunt off the horse.

My point being there are all kinds of horses and they are all good for what they are bred to do, some of every breed are good and some of every breed are not so good, like human athelets, but using the correct horse for the job at hand is like using the right tool to do any job.

Thanks you and the Hancocks shown are very nice looking horses.

The 13 hand quarter horse, is a horse of yesterday and has not existed in the USA since about 1950..Some foreign countrys have not gone our route and they have preserved that stocky tough little horse..

Speaking of Hancock horses, I exercised George Hancock for Mr. E.P. Epenauer of Marfa, Texas every day after school and in the summers when I worked on his Madera canyon ranch out of Ft. Davis..He was a world champion cutting horse at the time..I used him just like I used the cold blooded ranch horses..He was a horse! that could do it all, big tough old boy and I loved to ride him..

For our disaplane on this blog, breed has little to do with anything, I would personally pick a good unregistered cow pony off some ranch that was broke to death and knew his job.
I ride my high dollar quarter ropeing horses to hunt and work cows simply because its a great way to keep them in shape and my rope horse is 18 and acts like a 8 year old..He has been to the BFI twice and won money by his previous owner. He is perfect for this 80 year old man as all I have to do is rope, he does the rest and I have some younger horses coming up..My point is he fits ME, and BIG MAN, that's what you need, forget all the advise about breed and get some help and find a good ranch broke horse that YOU like and big enough to carry you. I know a lot of big cowboys that do that all the time, a few of them are world champion doggers btw..Good luck and enjoy.

If you happen to pick out the one pulling the chuck wagon please do not post a picture.

To the OP.......... there is a reason that outfitters in Canada and Alaska use horses that are draft crosses. They are bigger, have good bone, feet and can handle the weight of hunters and their gear and pack heavy loads. Their larger feet also do better in soft ground. A percheron cross is a good one with quarter horse, morgan and other breeds as it helps to keep a set of whithers on the horse and not be too round backed......... which is better for saddles and pack saddles with heavy loads.

My wife and I raised, trained and used quarter horses and paints for close to 40 years. We love them but they have their faults due to specific breeding/performance interests and many of them are not worth a pinch of coon shit as horses that need to be used hard for what they were intended for in the first place.

The best mountain horses we have ever used were draft crosses. You would do well with a big 16+ hand, 1600 pound Percheron cross. I have personally had a couple of big 1400 pound quarter horse geldings that were around 16 hands, with good feet and legs, that were absolutely outstanding horses in the back country............. but finding one of them these days is difficult and when you do find one they will come at a premium.

Anybody know the rider and horse weight ratio should be in steep mountain country regardless of breed assuming that that the hooves hasn't been bred off?

Remember, the rider is 300 pounds alone!!!!!!!!

Any professional hunting guide could/should answer this question easily.

BEST INTEL AND DISCUSSION I HAVE HAD HERE IN A LONG TIME

Let me put this way,

I do NOT like hiking out of Snake River or the Wallowa because the horse got soured.
Myself, I am 250 pounds and both of bother's are 300 pounds plus.

BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT AND WILL NEVER DO IT AGAIN, LESSON LEARNED 20 YEARS AGO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get yourself the biggest and strongest young son of a bitch horse you can get or get yourself a big ass draft horse mule.

Life is too short for bullshit.

Seriously, Hancock's are the best fit for you and what's more important, they are knowned to be sure-footed which is just as important as the weight ratio.

Most of the pack strings I knew in Montana used draft horse crosses.

The prettiest set I have ever seen were Belgian Cross mules--all stood at least 17 hands, and could go all day every day. Fellow on the Bozeman pass was breeding them. AIing Belgian mares.

All that said, most of the riding horses were quarter horses.