Norseman it was always my understanding that a rider (& gear) should not exceed 20%. I don't know if that is correct or not, just what I was told.

I have to ask why would a Hancock horse be suggested? (maybe because Joe Hancock's maternal sire was a Percheron?). Joe Hancock died in the first 1/2 of the last century, something like 70 years ago. The second part is something I previously mentioned, the lack of a .22 in breeding programs. Someone with a couple of dozen mares trying to preserve a blood line is kidding themselves. Mostly they're going to a lot of effort to produce a dink. The great breeders like King Ranch ran 100's of mares and might only use a couple of foals over the years that were line breed. The difference is the great breeders were looking for a type, genetic traits, of which Klegborg was a master, vs. a backyard breeder with 6 mares that carry 10 crosses to Red Man/Blue Valentine or whatever looking for a percentage of bloodline.

On another note, does it seems inconsistent to say on one hand look at the individual horse and on the other hand rule out an entire population of a particular breed?

I see Mammoth Jack x Percheron...

now.

or Morgan x Percheron...



WOW...but I personally enjoy the debate as much as the pursuit

At 6'9" I think those stirrups might be a bit short on picture 2. You would look like Gary Stevens at the Preakness!
The clip job on that Honkey is something though!

Those are all beautiful animals, I may not use that kind of animal, but I never met a horse I didn't like nor one that sooner or later I couldn't get along with..Good looking mule also and I bet he could step over the worst of blow down timber..I broke to rid a lot of mules in my life and I have a respectable amount of respect for them! A good mule is hard to beat for hunting and for rough country, we used them a lot as we had some slick rock mountain country and the Mexican mules were hard footed and sure footed and tougher n nails..They were also a lot of trouble to break, and it took a world of patience to get by some of them..They were the sons of Burros that gave them hot blood, and mares of less than good quality, but again they too were hot and tough..That has not changed to this day and those mules suit the country they live in like a mustang does.

Crazy clip job but that is one good looking mule right there. I would add that one to my two mules I have in a heartbeat if looks were the only factor.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Norseman it was always my understanding that a rider (& gear) should not exceed 20%. I don't know if that is correct or not, just what I was told.

I have to ask why would a Hancock horse be suggested? (maybe because Joe Hancock's maternal sire was a Percheron?). Joe Hancock died in the first 1/2 of the last century, something like 70 years ago. The second part is something I previously mentioned, the lack of a .22 in breeding programs. Someone with a couple of dozen mares trying to preserve a blood line is kidding themselves. Mostly they're going to a lot of effort to produce a dink. The great breeders like King Ranch ran 100's of mares and might only use a couple of foals over the years that were line breed. The difference is the great breeders were looking for a type, genetic traits, of which Klegborg was a master, vs. a backyard breeder with 6 mares that carry 10 crosses to Red Man/Blue Valentine or whatever looking for a percentage of bloodline.

On another note, does it seems inconsistent to say on one hand look at the individual horse and on the other hand rule out an entire population of a particular breed?

RichardAustin you are correct about the rider/ horse ratio.

Why would I suggest a Hancock horses? I suggested line-bred Hancock horses due to their conformation, size, weight, stamina, athleticism, sure-footed, hard hooves and calm demeanor. This what I call VERSATILITY.

I don't what you mean by someone having a couple of dozen mares trying to preserve a blood line is kidding themselves? One should focus on SIRE'S, there are stallions and then there are sires.


You need to remember that Joe Hancock ended up at 6666 Ranch toward the end of career and they had hundreds of mares.

There a lot of Hancock breeder's that don't advertise on paper or internet here in the Northwest/West of the Mississippi River and there horses are usually sold out every year.

I recently bidded $8000.00 on a stallion named Joe Hancock Lee and lost and the seller refused to me how much he was sold for.
He was trailered to Tennessee from Oregon.

Backyard breeder's? mmmmmm? I know a backyard breeder that has 3 stallions that are worth about $20,000.00 each and he also 8 mares that are worth at least $8,000.00 a piece. He only sells to people that are active in pro-rodeo circuit. I also know a guy that has 5 stallions that might be worth $3500.00 a piece and he has a band of 60 mares that are maybe worth $1000.00 at the most.
So who is the backyard breeder???????????

It does seem inconsistent to rule out a breed but not bloodlines.

http://www.aqha.com/Museum/Exp...s/J/Joe-Hancock.aspx

Interesting read for those that are interested.

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Norseman it was always my understanding that a rider (& gear) should not exceed 20%. I don't know if that is correct or not, just what I was told.

I have to ask why would a Hancock horse be suggested? (maybe because Joe Hancock's maternal sire was a Percheron?). Joe Hancock died in the first 1/2 of the last century, something like 70 years ago. The second part is something I previously mentioned, the lack of a .22 in breeding programs. Someone with a couple of dozen mares trying to preserve a blood line is kidding themselves. Mostly they're going to a lot of effort to produce a dink. The great breeders like King Ranch ran 100's of mares and might only use a couple of foals over the years that were line breed. The difference is the great breeders were looking for a type, genetic traits, of which Klegborg was a master, vs. a backyard breeder with 6 mares that carry 10 crosses to Red Man/Blue Valentine or whatever looking for a percentage of bloodline.

On another note, does it seems inconsistent to say on one hand look at the individual horse and on the other hand rule out an entire population of a particular breed?

RichardAustin you are correct about the rider/ horse ratio.

Why would I suggest a Hancock horses? I suggested line-bred Hancock horses due to their conformation, size, weight, stamina, athleticism, sure-footed, hard hooves and calm demeanor. This what I call VERSATILITY.

I don't what you mean by someone having a couple of dozen mares trying to preserve a blood line is kidding themselves? One should focus on SIRE'S, there are stallions and then there are sires.


You need to remember that Joe Hancock ended up at 6666 Ranch toward the end of career and they had hundreds of mares.

There a lot of Hancock breeder's that don't advertise on paper or internet here in the Northwest/West of the Mississippi River and there horses are usually sold out every year.

I recently bidded $8000.00 on a stallion named Joe Hancock Lee and lost and the seller refused to me how much he was sold for.
He was trailered to Tennessee from Oregon.

Backyard breeder's? mmmmmm? I know a backyard breeder that has 3 stallions that are worth about $20,000.00 each and he also 8 mares that are worth at least $8,000.00 a piece. He only sells to people that are active in pro-rodeo circuit. I also know a guy that has 5 stallions that might be worth $3500.00 a piece and he has a band of 60 mares that are maybe worth $1000.00 at the most.
So who is the backyard breeder???????????

It does seem inconsistent to rule out a breed but not bloodlines.

Most of the Hancock horses I have had anything to do with were broncy bastards.

Your posts is really annoying with all of the prices and values assessed to some guys horses....... according to who. And in the great scheme of things the sire does not fix everything. Mares are important........... the bottom side of the pedigree is where most horses fall down because people tend to focus on the sire and not the dam. Big mistake.

My wife was a Foundation Quarter Horse card carrying judge and I won't tell you what she has to say about Hancock horses. Pedigree is great, but it is only part of the equation and in the end the horse is what matters. I have seen lots of well bred horses that should have been on the liner heading for the plant.

Why just look at Joe Hancock himself the maternal side of his pedigree is all 'unknown' horses........ or in other words " out of deep canyon by a long rope".

You bid $8K on a horse. And that somehow proves what?

Really annoying post, but that is probably just me and I have a bad attitude at the best of times.

I don't see Wendy name on the FQHA as a card carrying judge?
Was her name Wendy Ross at the time, KellY?

As far as the prices concerned, it reflect how dedicated the breeder are.
Prices according to who? It's guess it called supply and demand.
Take a look at those sire's pedigree and you will see that the bottom side of the pedigree is repeated or in other words, the breeder focus mother lines as well.

What AQHA lines are popular in Mantoibia, Canada?

What bloodlines do you breed?

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
My comments about feet include the show and racing class of QH and Tb. A shocking amount of failures occur in both breeds occur because of the tiny feet and those occur in protected footing environments of Ring and track as mentioned by others in this thread. PETA has some truly ghastly tape of Racing failures on the track to try and stop the sport that I came upon by accident the other day. One of a very fast two year old filly shattering a front leg by simply over powering the Immature bone structure is illustrative of the problem. No trails or Rocks needed. There is a HUGE gap between the feet of modern hot bred QH and TB and a Percheron as it pertains to Mountain duty. Many Percheron could exist very well in a pack string for years with only a good trimming a few times a year. No iron needed. I have had some good Hot bred horses and have used them in the mountains of Colorado in rough duty after they won National Championships in the ring in Roping and Speed events. My comments applied to those horses under me as well. It took great care and Iron shoes to keep my horses sound in the ring and on the trails. Without them, they would have been dead lame. They suffered from thin walls, thin soles, and small diameter just like the rest of the horses I am alluding too. Often needed pads to cover thin soles as well to protect against the rocks. I love my "performance" horses especially their ability to move those small feet very, very fast. Doesn't blind me to their deficiencies when faced with a 300 pound man and mountain duty on rocky trails.
Does anyone want to discuss the leg above the feet differences between a ring or track horse and a Percheron? Not trying to offend but seriously asking if a discussion of this is of value to people.
Have a great day and I hope part of it will be enjoying a horse. Just went out and fed one and watched another graze in the pasture a bit.
Best regards,

Draft horse have many health issues including foot problems.

http://www.thehorse.com/articl...orse-health-problems

I could not open the article but no doubt the draft horse has some genetic problems as well. Line breeding has always been a problem in animals with faults continuing on down the line. Horses, cows, dogs all show the effects.
Breed a draft animal to a stock horse is not a fail proof plan either as one simply doesn't know what the result will be until you have it. Thus discussions about matters like this are all Broad brush. However that should not stop us from talking about it and helping OP's with advice from time to time. I have a Colonel Freckles grandson standing out my window that seems to have some form of Insulin Resistance and shows the classic signs of fat deposits and now is trying to founder on green grass. That too is an inherited gene and one that we all wish were not still in the Pool. However it is spread across Draft, stock and pleasure horses of almost all breeds. Doubt it could be eliminated. I sure hate it on this one though because they are hard to save and even harder to make useful again. I am hoping for both. He is a kind and nice gelding and I am the only person that has ever ridden him. His name is Buddy. Came to me wilder than a Peach Orchard Boar in a sack. Had to rope him to catch him and he tried to kill himself the first time that rope settled. Now all I have to do to catch him is walk out into the pasture, swing the rope a couple of times and hold up a loop. He will lope or trot a circle and come back to me and put his head in the loop.

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:
I don't see Wendy name on the FQHA as a card carrying judge?
Was her name Wendy Ross at the time, KellY?

As far as the prices concerned, it reflect how dedicated the breeder are.
Prices according to who? It's guess it called supply and demand.
Take a look at those sire's pedigree and you will see that the bottom side of the pedigree is repeated or in other words, the breeder focus mother lines as well.

What AQHA lines are popular in Mantoibia, Canada?

What bloodlines do you breed?

That is because she isn't any longer and dropped it....... guessing, 15 years ago back when we lived in Alberta.

Manitoba is NOT a stronghold of high end registered saddle horses. More draft horse breeders here with Clydes, etc.

We are out of the breeding business now, put our last stud down about 5 years ago and then sold off the brood mares.

Now we just have some good geldings and use them on the ranch and for hunting. Personally I got sick of the whole breeding thing and all the phony pricks and the politics. If I never see another breed show it will be too soon.

We had a number of QH studs over the years and one of the best was Skipper W breeding. On the paints we ended our time with them with Barlink lines. There were others, but i cannot be bothered.

Busy with bear season............

Carry on.

This draft horse, quarter horse, throughbred thing is one of the most ridiculas threads I have ever gotten into...They all have different disaplanes and that is as it should be..I don't see any draft horses on the racing circuit, or the cutting or roping, running barrels or rodeo or ranch work disaplanes..nor do I see any of the three mentioned dragging timber or plowing fields or jousting as far as I know? These are all accepted breeds, all are beautiful in their own right, we need not compare one to another. Same with mules, I love to hunt on mules and pack on mules, but never had much luck roping on them, I know they can't run like a horse on barrels or at he track, and I have tried to catch a steer in a pasture and it seldom works at all, but they are good for what we use them for, we had quite a few mules and horses on the ranch I was raised on. We raised them broke them, used them and sold them. In fact my adopted cousins raised and broke a pretty famous mule that was purchased by a Slim Pickens for his rodeo act, and he was in several movies we named him Holywood. I rode that mule from the time he was a two year old He was beautiful and smart..

333_OKH,

I don't know what your situation as far as having bad knee's but if you were like my older brother, his knee's pain were aggravated by wide rib caged horses.
Something to think about and that mule cross percheron look like it is narrow enough not to bother my brother knee's.
Do you plan on roping or performing cattle round up at your Aunt ranch?

Is the Mule cross for sale?

Hancock horses are way over rated-

look at Hollywood Golds and Peppy Sans-

tough, smart, athletic, go all day and be bouncing the next morning.

Sean Russell,

who are the breeder of those lines that can haul a 300# man up and down steep mountain country?,
Bear in mind the rider and horse weight ratio.

Norseman, not to be difficult, but $20,000. is a not a full stud fee for a top stallion. Plus, if you do buy a stallion, you're really locked into that one breeding program. It could take 4 or 5 years to prove a really good stallion, by that time you're way down the road into a program. IMO much better to go to a proven stud -with a really, really good mare. The Four 6s is exactly what I was talking about for being a breeder. They also run enough mares to only keep the best and do whatever needs to be done with something that isn't going to work. As a working ranch, their horses have a job before they're born. That means they've put a lot of thought into what is hitting the ground because their productivity is dependent upon how good of ponies they have to use. More on the Four 6s, the qualities you mentioned sounded like Dash For Cash get. All his geet and grand get are athletic, good minded, and a lot of them are performers and studs as well. I personally like some race horse breed into my cow ponies. Burnett Ranches also happened to have stood one of the prettiest horses I've ever seen, STOLI. About as picture perfect of a QH as I'v ever seen. I'll take a modern horse over any gene pool left from a horse of 100 years ago.

Sean, I love the Little Peppys. Have one grand daughter of his left. Great mare.

Stoli, is a good looking horse with some TB in the background.

Can he haul a 300 pound man up and down steep mountains?

Check out Four Six Hancock at 6666 Ranch, look like 6666 Ranch is doing something right, do you agree?

This debate or topic almost starting to sound like Ferrari vs. 4x4 Dodge Diesel pick up to tow a travel trailer or how about this one, it is starting to sound like that you should put a Ferrari motor in a Dodge pick up because it has more horsepower then the diesel, do you see where we are getting at?

Do you know which lines of QH can fulfill 333_OKH request other then Hancock / Blue Valentine?

To start with that's a lot of trouble checking pedigrees and talking $20,000 breed fees for a horse that's going to be used to pack someone up and down a mountain, this thread is going nowhere, and losing its credentials I fear....

Id go to the Saturday sale or visit some big mountain ranch and buy myself a $3000 cold blooded ranch horse and there are some damn well broke good horses to be had without papers for the use you have portrayed..

I was told by horse judge of all breeds, many

years ago that about blood lines are gone in about three generations.

Sounds logical.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by mulerider777:
I was told by horse judge of all breeds, many

years ago that about blood lines are gone in about three generations.

Sounds logical.

Don

It's true but in order to prevent that, you must practice inbreeding or line breeding and do blood work for how many match chromosomes there are in order to continue on passing the genes. Fine example is the large heart gene in the horse racing world.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
To start with that's a lot of trouble checking pedigrees and talking $20,000 breed fees for a horse that's going to be used to pack someone up and down a mountain, this thread is going nowhere, and losing its credentials I fear....

Id go to the Saturday sale or visit some big mountain ranch and buy myself a $3000 cold blooded ranch horse and there are some damn well broke good horses to be had without papers for the use you have portrayed..

The best horses I ever had in the outfitting business and for packing out moose and day to day hunter use were grade horses......... usually AQH cross with draft. I prefer percheron as they help with the wither department but ................. who cares on here

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:

quote:

Originally posted by mulerider777:
I was told by horse judge of all breeds, many

years ago that about blood lines are gone in about three generations.

Sounds logical.

Don

It's true but in order to prevent that, you must practice inbreeding or line breeding and do blood work for how many match chromosomes there are in order to continue on passing the genes. Fine example is the large heart gene in the horse racing world.

The large heart comes from the X chromosome of the dam.

http://www.circledhorses.com/The%20X-Factor.htm

A good read on X Factor.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi...lizabeth_II_1982.jpg

What? did you say 300 pounds Ronny?

Yeah he's from Northern California, he want's a horse for riding in steep mountain country!
Is that a problem Queen Elizabeth?

X factor was interesting reading. Thanks for the Link.

What are your plans 333_OKH?

My horse go to First Down Dash , Three Bars Tripple Chick, Chicks Budino,etc all know big hearted horses. You can't ride them down as they go and go no matter how hard you push them.

300 pound rider in steep mountain country.

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:
Stoli, is a good looking horse with some TB in the background.

Can he haul a 300 pound man up and down steep mountains?

Check out Four Six Hancock at 6666 Ranch, look like 6666 Ranch is doing something right, do you agree?

This debate or topic almost starting to sound like Ferrari vs. 4x4 Dodge Diesel pick up to tow a travel trailer or how about this one, it is starting to sound like that you should put a Ferrari motor in a Dodge pick up because it has more horsepower then the diesel, do you see where we are getting at?

Do you know which lines of QH can fulfill 333_OKH request other then Hancock / Blue Valentine?

A horse built like Stoli plus the X factor makes it a slam dunk Stoli is way more horse than a so called Hancock. Hancock was foaled in 1940 for peters sake.

?

Is Stoli for sale?

I wonder if 333_OKH is willing to pay for horse to be hauled from Louisiana to California as well?

Hey guys, I posted that picture because I think Stoli is about as perfect as a QH gets. The angles of his hips and shoulders, the way the neck ties in, his pretty head, short back, even his tail set. Compare that to the horses from the early part of last century makes them look like plow horses. It was meant to be a part of my conversation with Norseman, but it seemed to have upset one poster. I very much enjoyed the conversation with Norseman and all. I'm not one to think my views must be accepted as right and like to hear what others have to say; never know they might teach this ole dummy something.

I felt 333_ question had been answered - he's best off with some cross to a draft type. At almost 400 pounds (rider plus gear), to be used 6 -8 hours a day in rough country at altitude for a week or more straight, for my way of thinking a QH or TB would not be a great choice. You'd want some heft / substance in your mount, and personally I think he should be looking at 2 horses. As either a back up or to lighten the load. JMO.
But do very much enjoy the conversation. I love horses and like to talk about them. Sorry to Mr Atkins for straying off subject, something I notice he never does.

+1 as stated above.

I guess Stoli is not for sale, JWP?

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Hey guys, I posted that picture because I think Stoli is about as perfect as a QH gets. The angles of his hips and shoulders, the way the neck ties in, his pretty head, short back, even his tail set. Compare that to the horses from the early part of last century makes them look like plow horses. It was meant to be a part of my conversation with Norseman, but it seemed to have upset one poster. I very much enjoyed the conversation with Norseman and all. I'm not one to think my views must be accepted as right and like to hear what others have to say; never know they might teach this ole dummy something.

I felt 333_ question had been answered - he's best off with some cross to a draft type. At almost 400 pounds (rider plus gear), to be used 6 -8 hours a day in rough country at altitude for a week or more straight, for my way of thinking a QH or TB would not be a great choice. You'd want some heft / substance in your mount, and personally I think he should be looking at 2 horses. As either a back up or to lighten the load. JMO.
But do very much enjoy the conversation. I love horses and like to talk about them. Sorry to Mr Atkins for straying off subject, something I notice he never does.

RichardAustin,

what your opinion of 6666 ranch of using 4 6 Hancock for stallion service, in other words do you think they know what they're doing since you spoke of them in a positive manner?

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:
I guess Stoli is not for sale, JWP?

For sale or not for sale is and was not the point.

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:

quote:

Originally posted by RichardAustin:
Hey guys, I posted that picture because I think Stoli is about as perfect as a QH gets. The angles of his hips and shoulders, the way the neck ties in, his pretty head, short back, even his tail set. Compare that to the horses from the early part of last century makes them look like plow horses. It was meant to be a part of my conversation with Norseman, but it seemed to have upset one poster. I very much enjoyed the conversation with Norseman and all. I'm not one to think my views must be accepted as right and like to hear what others have to say; never know they might teach this ole dummy something.

I felt 333_ question had been answered - he's best off with some cross to a draft type. At almost 400 pounds (rider plus gear), to be used 6 -8 hours a day in rough country at altitude for a week or more straight, for my way of thinking a QH or TB would not be a great choice. You'd want some heft / substance in your mount, and personally I think he should be looking at 2 horses. As either a back up or to lighten the load. JMO.
But do very much enjoy the conversation. I love horses and like to talk about them. Sorry to Mr Atkins for straying off subject, something I notice he never does.

RichardAustin,

what your opinion of 6666 ranch of using 4 6 Hancock for stallion service, in other words do you think they know what they're doing since you spoke of them in a positive manner?

Line breeding when performed correctly has produced some outstanding horses. Outside blood is what has produced the best horses and the greater amount of great horses. Horse are better today than in yesteryear. It is like a 50's model truck VS one of today.

quote:

[QUOTE]QUOTE]

RichardAustin,

what your opinion of 6666 ranch of using 4 6 Hancock for stallion service, in other words do you think they know what they're doing since you spoke of them in a positive manner?

I think JWP nailed it.

Do I think the Four 6s know what they're doing? If that was a serious question then yes, absolutely. It was the point I was trying to make. They've probably run 150 -200 broodmares for the last 100 years. When they produce a dink, they have a .22, a lot of land, and a backhoe to remove any unwanted gene pool. They can also separate 20 -30 mares for 5 or 6 years to do some test breeding. Most of us don't have that luxury. The average joe, someone like myself, really doesn't want to take the hit after investing in a stud fee, waiting a 3 or 4 year to see what kind of colt you got, and then have to rid it from the breed. Someone like myself will want to re-coop some of the costs. That is not a practice that tends to improve the breed. That is why they line breed and I inbreed. The difference is consistent quality, part of why someone like me should not be in the breeding business, and they (4-6s) should. It is also what I meant that their horses have a job before they're born. They breed horse out of need, (looking for a type). By necessity they breed using horses as their livelihood depended on, and to some degree still does. Add to that they’re headed up by a guy who was at the forefront of AI, transported- frozen semen, genealogy and just a master breeder; who am I to question their resurrecting a 100 year old blood line? I didn’t understand it when they got that stallion (if I remember correctly, they got two Hancock studs at the same time), but I attributed it to wanting to get a board based appeal at an affordable rate, so thy went the Foundation route.
Stoli, the horse I think represents a near perfect QH, is Dash For Cash/First Down Dash bred. IMO that is some of the best breeding in the world. I would ask you how does a Hancock bred horse, (remember we need 20% blood to pass on one matched chromosome), improve on a horse like this?
So what do I think? If I was looking for Hancock, the Four 6s would be an excellent place to look for it, but I don’t see it as a step up to current breeding. Royal Fletch carries bloodlines I rode a bunch and really liked, but I wouldn’t want a line breed Fletch either, so it’s not that I have something against Hancock horses. That’s just my opinion, doesn’t make it right for anyone but me.