Good afternoon,

I am looking for my first bolt-action large bore rifle. I've decided on the .416 caliber for a multitude of reasons, some of which are purely personal preference.

My question is which variation of the .416 will provide the greatest range of options for rifles chambered, availability of brass, and availability of ammo in far off lands?

I had settled on the .416 Rem Mag until I heard on the AR forums that brass is no longer available. I like the .416 Ruger, but am not certain if it will have any longevity.

I plan on using the rifle for my first buffalo hunt next year, and for any other large game in the future.

Thanks for any input

I love my 416 Taylor, but if I was in the market right now, I'd take my chances on the 416 Ruger.

None of these 416s are really difficult to form from other brass that is fairly readilly available.

I do not currently own a 416. However, were I to purchase one now it would be a 416 Rigby.

I would go with the Rem. in the new model 70

.416 Remington brass is available, but in limited quantities. It can also be formed from Hornady Basic Belted brass.

Whether you select the Remington or the Ruger, buy two to three hundred cases (this should last you a lifetime, unless you do not pick up your brass).

George

Check the "Classifides"...there is a 416 Remington model 70 for $950....not my gun.
But a good choice if you Have To Have a 416

I haven't had the least difficulty in getting .416 Rem. Mag. brass. You just need to know where to look!

For me the decision you're facing was a toss up between the Rem. and the Rigby. So, I ended up with one of each.

416 Remington Magnum is the best if you are going for factory loaded ammo. Most available in African hunting camps I'm sure if you happen to lose you ammo. If you want something other than this factory version I would highly recomend the 416 B&M of Michael458's. Fits in a short action Winchester and does everything most of the 416s do in a much smaller package.

Sam

Simple choice:

Buy the Win 70 in 416 REM listed in the classifieds for $950

Buy a RSM in 416 Rigby (I just did on the boards last week for $1200)

Enjoy I'm not a big fan of the 416 Ruger since I don't see the need for it. but if you read the ruger post many do. You'll enventually find plenty of brass (Jaminson Brass LLC has it last time I check) Big bore aren't cheap just pay the money and have some fun. Find a rifle that you like

Brad

416 remington

http://www.jamisoninternationa...roduct-p/ji416rm.htm

Thats where you get brass from 1.19 a peice best of luck.

416 ruger ..
why?

ammo is about 1/2 the cost of all others
gun is about 1/2 of most others
reloading is just as easy

but, for a first bigbore, i maintain that the 458 lott on a CZ is the BEST choice for the first big bore.. can be loaded down to 45lc (really) to full house

and the bullets are of the cheapest big bores..

brass.. dirt cheap

reloading is a breeze on almost all of them

I have a Model 70 416 rm that I have shot about 2600 times so far.Its a very good gun.The good side its accurate and very dependable.The bad site if your going to hunt in Alaska leave it at home and buy the 416 Ruger Stainless with the stock that will take hell and high water.The 416 barrett is the only really long range 416.It has alot faster twist than the other 416s which usually have a 1 in 14 twist.I have two model 700 Remington 700s and they are nice one is the big game rifle in a hs stock but its blued the other is a stainless kevelar 700 thats awesome but they are about $2800 and dont have a floorplate.I wish Winchester would make a stainless model 70 with an HS stock.They woukld be the cats meow .The Ruger is a tough and hell bent gun that you can bounce around in the truck or boat with.Having both of them I vote for the winchester for $950 if your going to Africa and the Ruger if your going to Alaska.Either of these cartrides are awesome and the shells wont break the bank,Horady is coming out with 416 rm ammo thats about $65 a box the same as the 416 Ruger from them.The 416 is an awesome caliber no matter which way you go.There are some expensive North Fork 416 bullets for long range or barnes 350 gr bullets.I have done alot of 200 yards target shooting with my 416s and its suprising what they will do.I shoot alot of reduced loads as in 350 gr speer bullets at 2400 fps.Get use to your gun and you can shoot it way better.I shoot mine standing off of a milk crate on top of the bench with a 60 pound bullbag on top on the milkcrate.I also use past pads .This makes the 416s alot funner to shoot.I hope you have alot of fun with your 416 shooting and hunting no matter which one you choose.

quote:

I have a Model 70 416 rm that I have shot about 2600 times so far.Its a very good gun.The good side its accurate and very dependable.The bad site if your going to hunt in Alaska leave it at home and buy the 416 Ruger Stainless with the stock that will take hell and high water.The 416 barrett is the only really long range 416.It has alot faster twist than the other 416s which usually have a 1 in 14 twist.I have two model 700 Remington 700s and they are nice one is the big game rifle in a hs stock but its blued the other is a stainless kevelar 700 thats awesome but they are about $2800 and dont have a floorplate.I wish Winchester would make a stainless model 70 with an HS stock.They woukld be the cats meow .The Ruger is a tough and hell bent gun that you can bounce around in the truck or boat with.Having both of them I vote for the winchester for $950 if your going to Africa and the Ruger if your going to Alaska.Either of these cartrides are awesome and the shells wont break the bank,Horady is coming out with 416 rm ammo thats about $65 a box the same as the 416 Ruger from them.The 416 is an awesome caliber no matter which way you go.There are some expensive North Fork 416 bullets for long range or barnes 350 gr bullets.I have done alot of 200 yards target shooting with my 416s and its suprising what they will do.I shoot alot of reduced loads as in 350 gr speer bullets at 2400 fps.Get use to your gun and you can shoot it way better.I shoot mine standing off of a milk crate on top of the bench with a 60 pound bullbag on top on the milkcrate.I also use past pads .This makes the 416s alot funner to shoot.I hope you have alot of fun with your 416 shooting and hunting no matter which one you choose.

What does a 416 Barret have to do with a hunting 416.The Barret is a anti personel and material round...AR is full of them wow..

the barret is really good for nilgai hunting from a tower!

My choice of 416 Weatherby really doesnt fit your criteria but I would agree with those who have suggested the 416 Remington for all of the reasons already stated.

You'll soon find that the 416 is excellent for anything that walks and I have used mine on rabbits, the ralatively small whitetails of the Catskills, a bull elk in CO at a few hundred yards and all of my plains game in Zimbabwe. It woudl also have been perfect for the Cape buffaly had I chosen to use it and fine for elephant as well according the the Jumbo hunters here on AR and elsewhere.

My only advice, after you have chosen whatever 416 is to use it to hunt everything under the sun. You will find it a sweetheart and your best friend. And before anyone says it, no of course it will not ruin any more meat than any other caliber assuming you choose the bullet appropriate to the task at hand.

Good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
I love my 416 Taylor, but if I was in the market right now, I'd take my chances on the 416 Ruger.

None of these 416s are really difficult to form from other brass that is fairly readilly available.

Same here.

I have or have had the Rigby, Taylor, Howell and 2 other wildcats.

The Ruger as jeffeoso said is about 1/2 the money.

I also largely agree that a .458 ( Win or Lott) is a great starter big-bore.

Thank you all for the input. It's making me seriously reconsider my position on the .416 Remington.

The obvious next question is what rifle. Being a function above all else guy, the stainless steel/synthetic .416 Ruger appeals to me. But I don't like the 20" barrel. Does anyone know what real world velocities are in this stubby thing?

I've been looking at the Model 70, Kimber Caprivi and Ruger as realistic rifles. Dakota, Bansner, Sisk, and similar priced rifles are long shots seeing as money is not unlimited.

Thoughts, opinions and experiences greatly appreciated.

Well, the 416 Rigby should have best ammo availability of those mentioned. Anywhere in the world. IMHO. Lots of guns and lots of loads to choose. Lots of history and romance if that matters.

The 416 Ruger is just one gun, the Alaskan and one ammo source, Hornady. Based on the criteria of the question this would be the last choice. You guys kill me.

The 416 Rem makes sense just to get the excellent Win M70 rifle, otherwise, I'd go Rigby and never look back.

Here is a link to Midway just for a guide as to ammo availability:

http://www.midwayusa.com/brows...ategoryString=653***

416 Rigby___ 16 loads
416 Rem____ 12 loads
416 Taylor___ 6 loads
416 Wby____ 5 loads
416 Ruger___ 2 loads

Now, all we need now is a 416 Federal and 416 Winchester.

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
Check the "Classifides"...there is a 416 Remington model 70 for $950....not my gun.
But a good choice if you Have To Have a 416

Ditto. I already own the same rifle and a couple of other 416s or I would jump on that offer.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
416 ruger ..
why?
ammo is about 1/2 the cost of all others
gun is about 1/2 of most others
reloading is just as easy

Reason I'd get a 416 Ruger also, which I did, IMO best 416 choice, if you want to carry around 9-11 lb rifles in 416 calibre get the 416 Rem or Rigby. All loading components for the 416 Ruger are easy to find, easier than the 375 Ruger.

My choice like CCMDoc's is the Weatherby, having owned one for close to 20 years. It is a great round.

With that being said my recommendation is going to be choose the rifle that you like first. If it's Ruger then get the 416 Ruger, if Winchester then get the Remington. If your heart longs for a CZ Magnum then get the Rigby or Weatherby. If you have an ol' 06 laying around rebarrel it to the Taylor.

I'll agree with the others that the 416 is a fine round no matter what flavor your choose. All of them are going to push a 400 gr. pill at 2400, if you want somethings faster than this the choice is then limited to the Rigby or Weatherby.

I'd choose the rifle I like first and then look for the cartridge since ballistically they are almost identical. You can't go wrong with any of them.

Cheers,
Sam

416 Rem Mag--350gr TSX--own two short barreled versions--last rifles I would sell!!!!

I'm a big fan of the 416Rem built on the the NH Winchester M70. I do not like the SC Browning M70. I'm currently building another, which has a 22" barrel and will weigh approx. 7 3/4 pounds with scope mounts less scope. I just inletted the barreled action into the stock today and assembled it to test for balance. I am happy and feel this rifle will be my best 416 to suit my personal fit to date.

I've been running 416Rems for a good while and have enough stuff that I don't see myself without at least one. With all this said, if I did not have all this stuff and was starting from scratch, I'd go with a 416Ruger and forget the rest. Without question, the 416Ruger is superior in just about every measureable aspect. I love my Rem, but the Ruger version is a far better design. The easiest route would be to get one in a Ruger rifle, but you can put the 416Ruger in just about any long action rifle to make a well balanced trim package without much fuss.

I'd not worry too much about finding ammo. Anyone shooting big bores need to handload, unless you have bottomless pockets. As for finding ammo abroad, Hornady is on a full court press to open up availability of their factory ammo, and the popularity is increasing enough that more ammo will be left over and available in camps.

I've owned factory big bore mkII/Hawkeyes, RSMs, CZs, M70s, and Mausers. If you are leaning towards one of the huge traditional cartridges, the RSM and CZ makes for a better fit IMO. But those suckers tend to be truck axle sluggish in weight. I like Mausers, but they tend to be expensive to build a good rifle. If your cartridge choice fits well into a long action, it's hard to beat a Ruger for Mauser like ruggedness, with the M70 having a tad more refinement. But again, I personally dislike the new SC Browning M70, so I'm referring to the Winchester version made in NH.

Take your time and think it through, there are a ton of options to fit your needs.

Best

Call the Winchester Custom Shop and ask about a SS w/synthetic stock .416Rem. I sold a Remington Custom Shop in blue w/synthetic that was an absolute tack driver and kept the Winchester that shot almost as well because it was SS. Great cartridge. Almost all my Buff have been taken with a .416Rem and it will be along on my next Ele hunt.

Semper Fi

I was at the same point recently. I ended up trying out various guns and defining what I wanted in a hunting rifle. For me it ended up being short barrels and med to light weight. That left me at either the 416 Taylor or 416 B&M. Two days ago i ordered on of Michaels 416 B&M's cant wait for it to get here.

SSR

The choice depends a bit on what is important to you. My choice was 416 Rigby because I wanted a cartridge with a bit of history, (otherwise I may have chosen the 416 Ruger), I wanted a cartridge that could achieve 2400fps with 400gn bullets with relatively low pressures, and I wanted something that could double as a plains game rifle. The 416 Rigby can push a 400gn bullet to close on 2550 fps easily, so achieveing 2400fps with low pressures is not a problem. This virtually guarantees easy extraction, which is important if you are hunting buffalo (or any other dangerous game). Using the 300gn Barnes TSX you can achieve 2900fps, so you have something that will shoot as flat as a 338 Win Mag with 225gn bullets, and that 300gn Barnes TSX should do the job for any plains game. I wanted a robust action that cycles smoothly, so I chose a Dakota 76, and I took the trouble to import an action. Then I had the patience to wait for a gunsmith to buld me a rifle with a stock customised to my dimensions. I took it on a hunt for the first time two weekends ago and got 3 pigs for 3 shots all in close scrub. I am very happy with the result, a smooth actioned great handling rifle with a lot of power. This will be a rifle I keep until I am too old to shoot it, so I wan't too concerned with cost. A Winchester mod 70 in 416 Rem Mag or a CZ550 in 416 Rigby or a Ruger RSM in 416 Rigby, or a Ruger African in 416 Ruger would all do the job in a much less costly outfit, so if cost is a concern you may not go down the custom rifle route, but the only other thing 416 Rigby has over the other calibres (as I understand it) is that it should be easier to get ammunition in most African countries. Federal, Hornady & Norma all offer loaded ammunition, and brass is readily available, so with all those things considered I chose 416 Rigby and I am quite satisfied that it was the right choice for me.

quote:

My question is which variation of the .416 will provide the greatest range of options for rifles chambered, availability of brass, and availability of ammo in far off lands?

You guys dont give a crap about anyone but your own agenda. This is a new member and asking for some honest feed back. For an upcoming hunt presumably in Africa in 2011. There is no way a new round like 416Ruger will be 'expected' too be available on the shelf in far away lands. Maybe someday. Maybe not. Maybe a Rigby today. Thats an honest maybe. Probably a 375H&H and probably a WinMag or Lott. Thats an honest probably.

I wish this guy asked the question over on the hunting forum. For his own sake.

As for the cost of the guns, CZ Ruger and M70 all run close to a grand. And in the case of the M70 you get a very good quality product and at the proper 9 pound weight IMHO.

This guy asked about available gun, not custom guns. You can custom anything, you can build a 5 lb 577Trex if you want.

fourbore,

thanks for direct, concise, response. I know anything offered on the internet needs to be taken with a grain (spoonful, cup?) of salt.

I'm with you on rifle weights. Just because I can handle recoil doesn't mean I want more of it.

The Rigby seems to be the default for finding ammo wherever you go, and that it's still around speaks volumes about it's effectiveness and longevity.

On the Ruger's side, I like it's compact case and the fact that components are less expensive. I also believe that with modern components and reasonable reloading practices, excessive pressure-extraction issues aren't really a problem anymore.

Probably over-thinking this way too much...

Don't count on finding ammunition anywhere you might go with a .416 - other than steel cased FMJ 7.62x39mm Russian, of course!

That consideration should be below last on your list, IMHO.

But in that category, it's probably still a toss up between the Rem. and the Rigby.

if you are worried about find ammo in far off lands, at a yet to be determined date, GET THE LOTT. You can fire 458 winmag and 458 lott in the chamber ..

are you planning on a trip to africa or Oz in the next 5 years .. by planning, i mean money down, getting ready for it? or just a desire, and want it compenstated for?

400gr at 2400? in a lott? very easy to acheive ...

the 416 are seductive, but to a reloader, you can do everything you can do with the 416 ... yes, you won't have SD in a .458 400gr bullet.. but when/if you go DG hunting, you'll take the 500gr pills anyway

quote:

Don't count on finding ammunition anywhere you might go with a xxx - other than steel cased FMJ 7.62x39mm Russian, of course!

YEP




1st hunt -- .375 H&H, .458 Win, 9.3 X 62

IF you are trying to find ammo in Africa.

However, the OP asked about .416 ammo--in far off lands--

That MIGHT be the .416 Rigby--

but in reality-

most likely--zilch

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

You guys dont give a crap about anyone but your own agenda. This is a new member and asking for some honest feed back. For an upcoming hunt presumably in Africa in 2011. There is no way a new round like 416Ruger will be 'expected' too be available on the shelf in far away lands. Maybe someday. Maybe not. Maybe a Rigby today. Thats an honest maybe. Probably a 375H&H and probably a WinMag or Lott. Thats an honest probably.

I wish this guy asked the question over on the hunting forum. For his own sake.

As for the cost of the guns, CZ Ruger and M70 all run close to a grand. And in the case of the M70 you get a very good quality product and at the proper 9 pound weight IMHO.

This guy asked about available gun, not custom guns. You can custom anything, you can build a 5 lb 577Trex if you want.

Good afternoon,

I am looking for my first bolt-action large bore rifle. I've decided on the .416 caliber for a multitude of reasons, some of which are purely personal preference.

My question is which variation of the .416 will provide the greatest range of options for rifles chambered, availability of brass, and availability of ammo in far off lands?

I had settled on the .416 Rem Mag until I heard on the AR forums that brass is no longer available. I like the .416 Ruger, but am not certain if it will have any longevity.

I plan on using the rifle for my first buffalo hunt next year, and for any other large game in the future.

Thanks for any input

Thank you all for the input. It's making me seriously reconsider my position on the .416 Remington.

The obvious next question is what rifle. Being a function above all else guy, the stainless steel/synthetic .416 Ruger appeals to me. But I don't like the 20" barrel. Does anyone know what real world velocities are in this stubby thing?

I've been looking at the Model 70, Kimber Caprivi and Ruger as realistic rifles. Dakota, Bansner, Sisk, and similar priced rifles are long shots seeing as money is not unlimited.

Thoughts, opinions and experiences greatly appreciated.

__________________________________________


Sounds like you didn't read his posted questions. Maybe you were blinded by your agenda and didn't give a crap. Don't see where anything but thoughts, opinions and experiences were given based upon his questions of the 416, specifically the 416Rem and 416Ruger cartridges, rifles from standard factory to custom Bansner and Sisk, as well as longevity and availability.

Many have the expressed opinion that choosing a chambering and rifle soley based upon what is available in Africa is something that may not be the best line of logic. Africa is a continent, availability of ammo is not consistent throughout the continent. It may even be something that needs to be pre-planned through the specific PH in advance to ensure such ammo can be lawfully procured on the PH's license. His PH may already have 416Ruger in camp left over from previous clients as they are becoming more popular. Maybe check with the various Safari Outfiters to determine if there is an actual trend where client ammo is being lost vs being more of a trend with internet babble.

An effective 416 does not need to be 9-pounds bare. The recoil is not necessarily in the same league as the larger .45s, and many prefer a sporter weight rifle closer to that of the Sakos, Rugers, etc. The factory M70 416 is heavy because of the stock, barrel length, and solid steel bottom metal. In a moderate weight fiberglass stock with a shortened barrel, they are relitively sporter weight handy. These new Rugers come this way straight out the box at 7 3/4-pounds.

IMHO, you will have no particular advantage by going with the larger and heavier CZ in 416Rigby, unless this is your personal preference. It either fits your taste or it does not. Ranting and raving that anyone, who would recommend a 416Ruger or 416Rem in a well handling cost effective package, does not give a crap about anyone but their personal agenda, is a bit overboard IMHO.

I'd suggest you take a step back from the computer and relax a moment or two.

Best

quote:

Originally posted by USMC-1812:
fourbore,

thanks for direct, concise, response. I know anything offered on the internet needs to be taken with a grain (spoonful, cup?) of salt.

I'm with you on rifle weights. Just because I can handle recoil doesn't mean I want more of it.

The Rigby seems to be the default for finding ammo wherever you go, and that it's still around speaks volumes about it's effectiveness and longevity.

On the Ruger's side, I like it's compact case and the fact that components are less expensive. I also believe that with modern components and reasonable reloading practices, excessive pressure-extraction issues aren't really a problem anymore.

Probably over-thinking this way too much...

As far as ammo availability in Africa, I agree with MR....

Given that you hand load ammo. I would focus on what rifle fits you the best, first and foremost.

The Ruger RSMs I handled were just too heavy for my liking. I've had several CZs and liked them but again they are large and heavier than the Winchesters.

My advice having toted a few rifles around Africa is to buy the rifle that fits you the best and know that you will spend far more time walking with the rifle on your shoulder...less weight is better!

For under $2,000 bucks or so I would go with the Winchester, in either 375 H&H or 416 rem...but buy what fits and handles for you.

You may well find your taste, needs, and requirements change with regard to hunting DG...if so plan on buying more rifles ...I've been through a bunch of them!

Good luck with your choice!

Well at least there is consistancy with rifle recommendations. Seems like I need get my hands on a M70 and see how it fits.

Probably made an ass of myself by assuming that a question of ammo availability was relavent. I figured that airlines lose stuff and since people in Africa shoot rifles to, at least one of the .416 cartridges would be more prevelant than the others.

The rifle is for a hunt in summer 2012, so I would like to get it by fall 2011 in order to get loads developed, work any kinks out of the rifle and just get used to it.

"Probably made an ass of myself by assuming that a question of ammo availability was relavent."

NOT AT ALL

That is what the forum does for all of us --share info.

" I figured that airlines lose stuff and since people in Africa shoot rifles to, at least one of the .416 cartridges would be more prevelant than the others."

THEY DO

I have had guns lost for the entire trip only to have them show up back in Texas almost a month later.

I think the best advice given so far is to go some where you can shoulder a few rifle's and then decide what you like. I am a Ruger RSM fan and hike & hunt in a wilderness area with a fully loaded 12lb rifle going up and down hills at 6,000ft. Yes, I love my Kimber 8400 325WSM light compact carbine but I really don't notice much difference unless I carry the Ruger in my arms for more than a hour or two and then I notice my arms getting a little tired. I love how that 416 Rigby fits, feels and shoots. In 375 H&H the same rifle (Ruger RSM) is a fat pig! So again find some rifles and better yet shoot a couple of different rounds. I'm a recoil junky like most on this board and don't start running in to trouble until I get above 6500 ft-lb's in a less than 10lb rifle. My dad can barely handle my old Win70 375H&H go figure. Find a rifle you really like and go make some memories with it. Heck that's the reason I like the old classic's not because there better but they just feel good. Would I hunt in Alaska with a SS 416 Ruger heck yeah if it ment my RSM was going to gettted beat to *$#@. But when I go to africa I'll take my 450-400 double and a bolt that make me feel good? Maybe even a 450Rigby in a MRC PH??? Good luck and lastly have Fun!

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by USMC-1812:
Well at least there is consistancy with rifle recommendations. Seems like I need get my hands on a M70 and see how it fits.

Probably made an ass of myself by assuming that a question of ammo availability was relavent. I figured that airlines lose stuff and since people in Africa shoot rifles to, at least one of the .416 cartridges would be more prevelant than the others.

The rifle is for a hunt in summer 2012, so I would like to get it by fall 2011 in order to get loads developed, work any kinks out of the rifle and just get used to it.

Sooner the better....

Just a couple things you may want to consider after you make your purchase.

1) Send it off to a gunsmith who works on big bore rifles to have it looked over. You may wish to have it properly bed and checked for feeding and function with the bullets you wish to use.
2) After sighting in...shoot free hand, off shooting sticks, etc. Shoot as much as possible before you go to make sure you and the rifle are ready to go!
3) Take a look at QD rings for your scope mounting. I've had good luck with Talley but there are others that work well.
4) I consider a good quality scope a must for a cape buffalo rifle.

Best of luck to you!

+1 Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Brad aka Pill Shooter:
I think the best advice given so far is to go some where you can shoulder a few rifle's and then decide what you like. Brad

Good advice. I shot a Ruger RSM, and a CZ550 before I decided on the custom route. The Ruger was a bit too short in LOP for me, I kept getting hit in the cheek by my thumb, and the CZ belts me in the chops when using the open sights. The Win M70 is a nice fitting rifle for me, but not available in the calibre I wanted. Since then I have tried the Kimber Caprivi in 375 H&H and that is a nice fitting rifle for me too, and is vailable in 416 Rem, but not 416 Rigby. Fit is very important with a DG rifle, and everyone is different, so you need to try a few to find what suits you best. Then, as jjs suggested.
1) Send it off to a gunsmith who works on big bore rifles to have it looked over. You may wish to have it properly bed and checked for feeding and function with the bullets you wish to use.
2) After sighting in...shoot free hand, off shooting sticks, etc. Shoot as much as possible before you go to make sure you and the rifle are ready to go!
3) Take a look at QD rings for your scope mounting. Talleys are good, but I decided on Smithsons and there are others that work well.
4) I consider a good quality scope a must for a cape buffalo rifle. mine wears a 1.5 - 5X VX3 Leupold.

There is lots to consider before you decide.

fyi: Jamison and Quality Cartridge both list 416 Brass for sale on their Websites. Don't know if they actually have it in stock.