As I read the posts in this section, it appears there is a love affair with the 450/400. I am curious why there seems to be little interest in the new 500/416. It seems to me to be a perfect buffalo cartridge and with a low power scope adequate for 150 yard plains game. It has 5000 foot pounds of energy and penetration with the 416 bullet is excellent so it should handle elephant adequately. Isn't the 500/416 a better option than the 450/400 for a double? I like the appearance of the new Searcy action and am considering the 500/416. Is this a mistake?

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
As I read the posts in this section, it appears there is a love affair with the 450/400. I am curious why there seems to be little interest in the new 500/416. It seems to me to be a perfect buffalo cartridge and with a low power scope adequate for 150 yard plains game. It has 5000 foot pounds of energy and penetration with the 416 bullet is excellent so it should handle elephant adequately. Isn't the 500/416 a better option than the 450/400 for a double? I like the appearance of the new Searcy action and am considering the 500/416. Is this a mistake?

Not wrong but the World of Double Rifles revolves around tradition. That is one of the main reasons for even having a Double Rifle. It is a 125 year old design shooting 100 year old cartidges. Change only comes in small increments.

The 400's have been around, and proven for 100 years. There are no fly's on either of them and the 416 is only a marginal real time improvement. If you want to be efficent than buy a Bolt Rifle.

Why is 'Good Enough for 100 years' now not Good Enough?

LJS,

Mickey explained one reason - nostalgia.

Two more reasons are that the .500/.416 has only been available in Krieghoff rifles, and 1) a lot of people don't like some features on Krieghoff rifles, and, 2) Krieghoffs don't hold their resale value like the older English rifles.

If you're having a Searcy built, the .500/.416 is a good, versatile round.

Select the bullets you expect to use, and let Butch know.

George

George

The percieved problems with the Kreighoffs demonstrates my point. Non traditional cocking piece (although the design is 100 years old it was never prevalent.)

Because of this it has a lower resale value. Again tradition.

I also think the 500/416 is neither fish nor fowl. It has the bullet weight of a 400 Jeffery yet the recoil of a 470. If you want the 470 recoil than it is the one to buy as it is a much better stopper. If you want the 400 grain bullet than the 400 Jeff as it has much less recoil and is a lighter rifle.

There is a niche but it will be hard to resell to a DR hunter.

I read somewhere that it is the most ordered caliber in new Krieghoffs. I built a single shot in it because I never considered resale as a factor for this particular project (plus its just a barrel change if I feel different about that one day; not possible on a double).

It's a really good round but a little higher pressure than some would like in a double, plus it doesn't really do anything that wasn't already being done by something else.

If I were going to order a new Searcy and had any concerns about the ability to resell the gun one day, I think traditional calibers would be prefered to the 500/416. Supposedly Chapuis invested pretty heavily in the initial development, only to have it snatched away by Krieghoff. So it's doubtfull they (or anyone else) will jump on it until they think they are losing sales for lack of that chambering. Unlikely at this point. But I can understand Searcy offering it just because 416 is becoming a recognized caliber in America and this is certainly the best one for a double.

I believe the 500/416K is a fine cartridge, and is a very well designed round in what is right now, a popular bullet diameter! It is the new kid on the block, however, and doesn't have a huge following. That may change, but I doubt it. It seems just about everyone pairs this cartridge to the Kreighoff rifle, and that hurts the cartridge's popularity, because there are so many who take issue with the Krieghoff rifle. I have a friend who owns a Krieghoff double chambered for the 500/416K, and he litterly loves the rifle/cartridge combination.

I don't think the 500/416 will ever displace the 450/400, because I don't think it will live long enough. It is sad because it is a nice cartridge,but without the history it needs to be a top choice of double rifle people!

If I were going to get a double chambered for the 500/416K, it would be a B. Searcy, and I'd lay all the brass I could afford, mainly, properly head stamped brass. bullets are no problem. My choice, however, would be the 450/400NE 3" (.311dia), also available from Searcy, and stay with an old horse that has run over all the game fields for 100 yrs, and simply "IS" double rifle fodder personafied!

Double rifle people are a hard group! they don't jump on anything new easily, and the 500/416K is an example of that mindset. It is a good, and effecient cartridge, that will do absolutely anything the 450/400 will, and if one doesn't care about the popularity of the round he chooses, it is a lot better cartridge than most of the new stuff being oggled over in the USA today,like RUM, ULTRAS, and Short mags, of the savremchesters ilk!

What ever you decide get in your Searcy, it will take buffalo quite nicely, if you do your part!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Supposedly Chapuis invested pretty heavily in the initial development, only to have it snatched away by Krieghoff. So it's doubtfull they (or anyone else) will jump on it until they think they are losing sales for lack of that chambering.

Heym will aslo build a 500/416.

The 500/416 kicks more than the 450/400.

I understand the nostalgia part of the equation. What I don't understand is comparing its performance to the 450/400. The information I've read shows at least 20% more muzzle energy for the 500/416. As far as recoil, I own a Searcy 470 and it kicks harder than a friends 500/416. It is, however, more than a 450/400. I guess I'm intriqued by 416 Rigby performance in a rimmed case double.

I have one, it shoots great. Recoil has not been an issue as is usual in a well fitting rifle.

I'd love a 450/400 (.411) and it may be in the cards some day, but it'll be in a modern rifle. This would be for nostaligia, but still functional and not gain or lose a lot over my 500/416.

Get what you like and have a ball shooting it. I get some real strange looks when I come to deer camp with it, but it's good practice for the less frequent trips to Africa.

I thought Heym did but I checked their site and didn't see a listing. More proof that factory sites aren't that reliable.

One nice thing about the 500/416 is a relatively flat trajectory. Folks who scope their doubles can use the benefit. Up close it's splitting hairs. I suppose scopes on doubles offend more people than not there is still a market for them.

Trajectory and bullet choice was why I chose it for my single shot. I wanted a lot of whack and a decent point-blank range for NA hunting.

Plus, I have no regulation issues so I can really take advantage of the various 416 bullets for different purposes. I think Ruger should have tackled it before the 9.3 x 74 in the #1 but that's just me.

I think the 500/416 Flanged would make a perfect one gun big game rifle.
Set with a scope like a S&B 1.1X4 Mag eye relief model it would suit all plains game, Lion and Leopard tracked or on Bait.
And tracking Buff, Ele and land shot Hippo with the scope off. Super!
But I still realy want a light weight modern double in the small 450/400J. Hopefully Heym will bring this out one day.

My friend, and fellow DRSS founding member Perry Newman in Oklahoma owns a 500/416. He likes the 500/416.
A buddy in San Antonio has a Kreighoff in 500/416. Both the rifle and the round have performed admirably in Africa for him.

Now this is just my opine here, but I feel that as more people use the 500/416, reports of it's performance will generate a strong following among those buying NIB rifles.
As stated above it does have more recoil than a 450/400 3 inch.

Another friend in Corpus Christi order a Searcy 450/400 3 inch (.411).
He took that rifle to Africa twice last year and has glowing reports of the rifle's performance and the penetration of the 400 grain bullet on elephants. Butch regulates his 450/400 3 inch to 60 Cord levels or 2150 FPS.

I am a great fan and a lover of old English double rifles. However, the only place on this side of the pond, perhaps the only place in the world within a reachable price, you'll find a NIB 450/400 3 inch with proper 26" barrels is Searcy. A 26 inch barreled double rifle is indeed a thing of beauty and a joy to behold!

For me, the 450/400 3 inch is the perfect double rifle round. I own one because, I don't like getting beat up with recoil. In my 10 lb. Hollis I can enjoy shooting my double. My rifle is a .408. With either the .408 or .411 you get a long 400 grain bullet that penetrates well. The rifle is light enough to carry further. I've taken Impala, Warthog, Greater Kudu, and Eland with the 450/400 3 inch. The 450/400 is a rifle I can feel comfortable with no matter what I am hunting.

I would already own a NIB Searcy, however, I am afraid that the acquisition of another double rifle now, would cost me more than half of everything I own!

the 500/416 rimming/asquare/champuis/nitro/whatever... more names than can be good for it, certainly.


IMHO it's too high pressure for what it was designed for. Other than that, it's awesome

It will have it's neck shortned .05 and redubbed the 450/400#2 Bubba Nitro Express during 2006 (this will be fun)

which will shoot 400gr at 2150, as it should have done in the first place



Rusty,
if inventory count is the issue, well, I'll help a brother out..

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
I think the 500/416 Flanged would make a perfect one gun big game rifle.
Set with a scope like a S&B 1.1X4 Mag eye relief model it would suit all plains game, Lion and Leopard tracked or on Bait.
And tracking Buff, Ele and land shot Hippo with the scope off. Super!
But I still realy want a light weight modern double in the small 450/400J. Hopefully Heym will bring this out one day.

Every one of the good points you want are equally attributable to the 450/400NE 3". I will predict, an Elephant shot with either wouldn't know the difference. FPE/FPS/bullat diameter, and weight, are not a good measure of killing power,when they are that close together, and there isn't enough difference between them to make any difference! The bigest difference between them is chamber pressures, with the 500/416 haveing more! For all practical purposes these two are twins, and there is no evil twin between them!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the 500/416 rimming/asquare/champuis/nitro/whatever... more names than can be good for it, certainly.

IMHO it's too high pressure for what it was designed for. Other than that, it's awesome

Jeffe - I think you've been mis-informed.

A-Square Lists the following pressure info.

500/416 = 400gr @ 2437 fps = 38KPSI
470 NE = 500gr @ 2158 fps = 37KPSI

The pressure is clearly in alignment with other DR/NE cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
As I read the posts in this section, it appears there is a love affair with the 450/400. I am curious why there seems to be little interest in the new 500/416. It seems to me to be a perfect buffalo cartridge and with a low power scope adequate for 150 yard plains game. It has 5000 foot pounds of energy and penetration with the 416 bullet is excellent so it should handle elephant adequately. Isn't the 500/416 a better option than the 450/400 for a double? I like the appearance of the new Searcy action and am considering the 500/416. Is this a mistake?

It is a great DR-Cartridge and Heym still produces DR in 500/416 of course!

If I knew how to do it, I'd scan the A-SQUARE MANUEL .416 Rimmed pages into my computer and everyone could then read what the reported creator of the round had in mind. Just based on my reading, Art Alphin says this is his baby, as well as a 500 grain .458 calibered version using the exact same brass with the neck opened. The rim thickness is .060 as compared to .040 or so on a 3 1/4 inch 450/400. The 3 inch version 450/400 uses .060 inch thick rim, supposedly better for the extractors to throw the brass. Yes the .416 is a little higher pressure at near 2400 feet per sec velocity at the muzzle. Compare this with 2150 for the two versions of the 450/400. This means in "the books" the .416 will shoot flatter so longer shots are more realistic and it will penetrate deeper into ellie, hippo, rhino etc. The question is, does the 450/400 have enough penetration to regularly brain ellie or reach his heart through a huge piece of bone? If yes, then the extra penatration offered by the .416 is like another dollar for Bill Gates, what's the point? I wish all the rimmed ammo had .060 or .080 thick rims ( like 450 #2 and 475 #2 brass) those skimpy .035 or .040 rims on 470 & 500 NE and so many others just don't look "up to the job" to my novice eyes. If a bull ellie is hit in the skull but off the brain, with a 450/400 and he spins away from the hunter, now the hunter is shooting at the departing ellie, can the hunter feel he is going to penetrate straight into the rear end of this beast and hit something in that huge body to down that animal, again this is with the 450/400? Here the .416 in theory rises up over the slower 450/400. What do the guys that have been there with the 450/400 caliber say?

The .500/.416 is a good cartridge, but Jeffe is right, much of it's problem is that the pressure is a bit high for a DR Flanged Nitro. It's also competing with the legendary .400s.

The .500/.416 ended up Krieghoff's cartridge. Their standards for it are a 410 grain Woodleigh at 2330 fps from a 25.5" barrel for 39,885 CUP and 44,962 PSI. Quite a bit different from what A-Square shows. Comparing this to the original standards of the British rounds isn't easy, because long tons of bolt thrust (the British standard), CUP and PSI are different things and are mutually non-convertible. My understanding is that when the Brits tested the .500/.416 in their base crusher guns, they got something in the neighborhood of 18 tons. For comparison, the British standard for the .470 is 14 tons.

A friend of mine bought a Krieghoff in .500/.416 a few years ago and we clocked several batches of Krieghoff factory ammo out of it, both softs and solids. Avg velocity was 2275 fps from 23.5" barrels. If you want .416 Rigby Flanged, get 26" barrels!

When compared to the .400s, which have done it so well for so long, the .500/.416's net gain doesn't justify it's existance.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Jack
If you read "the old books" no one ever had a bad thing to say about the 450/400's. Their p,ower and effectiveness was never questioned or in doubt. A 400 cal 400 grain bullet at 2000 to 2150 fps [actual field velocities] had all the punch and penetration for all game.
There are no flies on the 500/416. I have shot one, the recoil is definately more than the 450/400's almost on the order of the 450/470 class of cartridges.
Any of the Nitro Expresses from the 400's to the 475's will do the job.
I have a 450/400 3 1/4" and a 450 No2.
I am a big fan of the 458 bore and have used my 450 No2 in Africa on 3 elephant and 2 buff...
But I am a big fan of the recoil/power of the 450/400's. For the Modern sport hunter they are hard to beat.
The 450/400's are quite a bit more plesant to shoot than the 450/475 class of cartridges.

BigFiveJack,

On a departing - already wounded - elephant there are a bunch of choices for an anchoring shot.

If the elephant is square heading away you have a shot at either hip joint or the spine. If the elephant is quartering away you have one hip joint, the spine, a heart shot and a brain shot.

I have tried the hip and spine shot on my first elephant after missing a side brain shot. I missed the spine by a couple of inches and there was no reaction. I missed the hip joint because I really didn't know where it was - this was my first elephant - I didn't try the heart but come close enough to the brain on a hard quartering away shot to drop it to its hind end, which allowed me to run up and give it a side brain shot.

I was using a 458wm double rifle. 500grs at 2090fps. I have no experience with the 450/400's but would think that they would have all the penetration needed for any of those departing shots.

JPK

JPK
Question:
After using your 458 double in Africa, is there any "lingering" feeling that you need more "power".

George S and Mickey are spot on

Also ammunition is largely confined to one or at best 2 manufacturers, unless I am wrong, in Europe Romey appears to make the ammunition for the Krieghoff, hence supply and availability on the world stage will always be a bit of a problem.

The 450/400 was a popular round in its day and remains well used to this day, but for big dangerous game and especially buffalo it was always marginal, most hunters and writers made mention of this fact and most prescribed the use of a .450 class doulbe or larger.

The 500/416 is a more powerful round than either of the 450/400 N.E rounds but offers no more advantage, and probably less, than a comparable .416 magazine rifle, which will always be more accurate over a wider spread of ranges and cost considerably less.

Most people nowadays will, if going for a double rifle for dangerous game stick with the traditional minumum calibres and in this intent .470 is as popular today as it was back in 1907.

No matter how good the 500/416 is or maybe there is no getting away from history and tradition and as there are still large numbers of historic doubles in calibres .450 and up out there for reasonable money, these will be sought after by those African bound as will modern .470's and .500's of the type offered for very reasonable (by U.K prices at least) prices by Butch Searcy in the U.S.

Preference will also play a part, personally I do not like the layout of the Krieghoff, but that is my own personal opinion only and in no way reflect how good or bad the rifles may be, and I know many others feel the same way.

These at least are some of the reasons why the round is either slow to , or has failed to, take off to date. Others may well disagree, as I have stated the round may well be a good one, that is not in doubt

I had a long discussion about double rifle calibers and rifles with Don Heath, Editor of AFRICAN HUNTER magamzine, a few years ago in Mozambique. It was his learned opinion that the best double rifle caliber for a visting sportsman was the 500/416 because of its versatility. Don said it offered enough frontal area and penetration to be great for buff, hippo and elepant, enough velocity and inherent accuracy to be great for lion and leopard and shot flat enough and had inexpensive and various component bullets to be used on plains game and range time. Don maintained the best rifle would be a Kreighoff because of the combi-cocker which allowed the gun to be transported completely loaded and completely safe even during a bumpy ride in a Landie or during a stalk while carrying the rifle African style. He said there was no chance of the rifle firing by being jarred or the safety catch and trigger snagging on brush. I respected the guy's opinion as he has shot or seen shot more dangerous game than many of us have ever seen alive. Also, when I evaluated the attributes of the rifle and the caliber against what I knew his opinions made perfect sense.

It didn't hurt that I found just such a rifle a few months later for an insane price and had the cash to scoop it up. I have killed a good sized eland, 2 wild African steers (with a classy right and left) and a bull elephant with the rifle and none of the critters required a second shot. It is very accurate, recoils less than any 470 I have ever shot, certainly less than my previous 450 NE and is not any more unpleasant to shoot than ony of the 3 400s belonging to members of this forum I have fired at DRSS events. The only down side of my rifle is it is a bit ugly compared to the Brit doubles and has a European palm swell I could do with out.

Perry

NE 450 No 2,

Yes, there are lingering doubts regarding power, really penetration, that I think will only be put to rest when I have the oportunity to shoot a bull, since their skulls are so much larger.

On this first elephant, I was shooting from a rock ledge about eight feet off the dry sand riverbed the elephant was on. Because of this elevation, which I failed to take proper account of, my first shot went under the brain. Range was maybe twenty yards. At the shot, her head went back and her rear colapsed in the classic brain shot manner I'd read about and seen on videos. However, when her rear hit the sand she righted herself, spun 180* and started to depart.

On seeing the original colapse, I had opened my rifle to reload the right barrel, thinking, I guess, that she was done. By the time I closed the rifle I had a hard quartering away aspect for the spine then hip tries range about 25 yards. Reloading on the run, and a slight turn by the elephant to come up our side of the river, where the ledge tapered off, allowed the rear angle brain shot to open, range maybe thirty yards, this also passed under the brain, but dropped her to her rear again. Running further, parralel to the sand on the ledge, opened up the final killing brainshot, taken from two feet off the sand at about fifteen yards.

The bullet from first missed brain shot passed through, the bullet from the missed rear angle brain shot was found embedded in the zygomatic arch on the off side. The fatal brainshot passed through as did an insurance shot from the other side.

Seems to me that there is nothing wanting in performance but the bulls' heads are just so much larger that the lingering doubt won't go until I can see actual results.

Performance on three buffalo was all you could ask for.

I'll be heading over this fall for more tuskless so I'll get to see more performance. Hopefully only one shot per cow!

JPK

BTW,

My efforts on this first elephant point out the futility of memorizing a particular spot on the elephant's head to shoot at for a brain shot. It just isn't about where you hit them - on the outside - but about your position relative to the position of the brain within the elephants skull. My first missed shot and my fatal shot entered only an inch or so apart, but my position relative to the elephant's changed, making the world of difference.

JPK

JPK
Baised on you shots on the cows I do nopt think you will have any penetration problems on bulls.

Your second post is so correct. It does not make any difference where the bullet hits on the OUTSIDE, what really matters is that the bullet path is through the brain.

PWN
There is nothing wrong with the way you double looks. It is a Krieghoff... and it looks like a Krieghoff.
I have shot it and seen other people shoot it, it shoots GOOD.
After using my Blaser R 93 and my Blaser K 95 I would have no problem using a Krieghoff double rifle.
In fact I may buy a Krieghoff Drilling.
The 500/416 is a good calibre, Merkel and Chapuis should make doubles for it.
A scoped 450/400 or 500/416 would make a GREAT bear, leopard and lion rifle.

The HEYM 88b double rifles weigh approximately ten pound, does any one know the weight in 500/416?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
A scoped 450/400 or 500/416 would make a GREAT bear, leopard and lion rifle.

Don't forget the deer in thick country and pigs anywhere.

Shameless plug.

Some very nice double rifle maker want shameless double rifle promoter to push their double brand and the new(ish) .500/.416?

I understand a vacancy for such opened up a month or so ago in the AR membership!

Oz Hunter,

I read in Woods book that he weighed one and it went 10lbs. Don't know if he rounded up or down, he just said it weighed "ten pounds"

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the 500/416...It will have it's neck shortned .05 and redubbed the 450/400#2 Bubba Nitro Express during 2006 ...which will shoot 400gr at 2150,

And I have a neat 16 bore round action hammer gun to build one on. Time and money, time and money...Hey jeffe, I will need a mono block this year, I hope.

Hog Killer

Easy Keith! I saw him first!

I for see a 22 Hornet or a 32-40 double later this year!

Rusty, what about doing the 22 Hornet, with a second barrel set in 30-40 Krag. Varmits to elk.

Hog Killer

500/416 is just a little higher pressure than 470 and 500 NE if loaded to specs with slow burning powder (say 109gr HH1000. It penetrates a lot better than 450/400 since it has a 2-300 fps velocity advantage but it also barks and kicks like a 470.

I think a lot of people dismiss the round because they are stuck with the thought that bigger bullet diameter means better killing and knockdown power, which is not the case. Game like buff and ele are from what I understand not knocked down by anything except a round penetrating deep enoguh to hit the CNS. The bigger the bullet diameter, the harder it is to achieve this with managable recoil.

I feel the 416 bullets strike a perfect compromize, they are big enough diameter and are managable with high enough velocity and have very high SD. Bet elephants dont notice a difference from 375 with regards to penetrating brain shots but it is a little extra marigin as well as having enough power.

Most people i talk to dislike the bottleneck design and assume it is high pressure which it is not.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

IMHO it's too high pressure for what it was designed for.

The 500/416 is simply the most perfect double rifle cartridge ever designed. Period, the end! If you want nostalgia, buy a 450/400. If you want one double that will literally do it all buy a Krieghoff or Heym 500/416 or have Seacy build you one at around 10.5 pounds. Bolt rifle performance at go anywhere pressures.

I really get weary of the 450/400 guys running down the 500/416. The 450/400 is a great cartridge but the 500/416 is a double rifle cartridge of modern design and is clearly superior in every respect. Get over it already!!!

Will the cartridge survive. Who knows. It's getting pretty popular in Africa but there are so many luddites running it down that it just might fade into history and that would be a real tragedy indeed.

"The 500/416 NE 31/4 delivers and regulates at around 2,350 fps with a 400-410 grain dangerous game bullets from 24" barrels. That exceeds the traditional double rifle velocity of 2150 fps by roughly 9% and brings the cartridge into the bolt action cartridge performance realm....Having a double that delivers in excess of 2,300 fps is remarkable. Having a double that duplicates bolt action performance levels is awesome." Pierre van der Walt. African Dangerous Game Cartridges.

I like the caliber more and more each day and as others point out, it "one-ups" the 450/400 (one of my very favorite calibers).
Don't see the need to consider nostalgia or resale as far as caliber selection in a modern double. Buy what you want, what you like, what makes you happy. Shoot the hell out of it and enjoy it. That's why I bought a Chapuis in 30R. If and when it comes time to sell and you get less than you paid, the balance was in the enjoyment of using it.