The standard M98 and the .416 Rigby: Bad idea.
A standard, milsurp, M98 action can indeed be butchered to make the cartridge fit.
If you do it, you had best stay below 40,000 psi with any of those .416 Rigby loads.
Surely that his how Harry Selby got away with it.

Did you know that handloading was punishable by death in Kenya when Harry and Finn were cavorting as PHs there?

Bolt Thrust:
Increases exponentially with increasing cartridge head size, internal diameter of case.

Using a standard, milsurp, M98 Mauser is a BAD IDEA for a full-length .416 Rigby-based cartridge.
Even after re-heat-treat/case-hardening of the action.

The 404 Jeffery will do OK, IMHO, since it is both shorter in action opening required,
and lesser in bolt thrust for any given pressure produced.

The 404 Jeffery wins this event of the Game of Rifles also.


Rip
.

Ok that's fair for a regular 98.

Now do the same for the CZ. Big action just waiting to show its paces. With the 404 the CZ is just trotting. It wants the Rigby to stretch its legs and do a full run.

The CZ 550 Magnum is a 5+1 sixshooter in 404 Jeffery,
and only a 4+1 five-shooter, at best, in .416 Rigby.
CZ claims only 3+1 four-shooter for the factory .416 Rigby.

The CZ box width is perfect for the 404 Jeffery by Mauser Stack Law of Nature.
It violates that principle with the .416 Rigby.
The 404 Jeffery is a higher-capacity, slicker feeder than a .416 Rigby, in the CZ 550 Magnum action.

The leade-only, antique throat is present on both 404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby standard chamberings.
One could add some Weatherby-ized throat to the 404 Jeffery
and make use of that extra box length in the CZ,
load that 404 Jeffery to 3.8" COL.
That would add more than 7 grains of water net case capacity to the 404 Jeffery.

Voila: "404 Jeffery Longclaw"

The 404 Jeffery Longclaw might be able to beat the standard .416 Rigby at top speed with whatever bullet is long enough to load to 3.8" COL,
and do it with less stress on the rifle.
Bolt thrust.

That would be an interesting experiment.
Use a .423"-grooved barrel and .423-caliber bullets.

Rip
.

But that Long claw entails a lot of work and hand loading.

The Rigby does that without breaking a sweat and goes signifcantly beyond with its cavernous capacity.I would much prefer a first shot, 0-300 yards, with the Rigby.

Esthetically, the .6+" neck of the 404 shouts out inefficient design, and while the 404 is certainly part of traditional Africa, so is Mr. Rigby.

Tanzan,

I've only used 400 gr. SAF in my 404, so I can't comment on lighter bullets.

RIP mentioned in his previous posts that he can easily get +2,800 fps with a 330 gr. bullet in a 404. Is there that much difference in that load vs. a 350 gr. @ 2,825 fps in the Rigby? I'd think they would both be good for long distance shooting.

When I hunt DG, I prefer taking two rifles if I can get my wife or a gunbearer to carry my medium. Then, I have the close DG sitution under hand (which I carry in my hands) and the longer PG option covered as well. However, I always have my DG rifle unscoped, and my PG rifle scoped, so I couldn't use my big bore for a long distance shot anyway (200+ yds.) with confidence. Just two different hunting styles as I see it. I can see how your style works very well for you; one rifle to cover all of the bases. Mine works for me also.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
... RIP mentioned in his previous posts that he can easily get +2,800 fps with a 330 gr. bullet in a 404. Is there that much difference in that load vs. a 350 gr. @ 2,825 fps in the Rigby? I'd think they would both be good for long distance shooting.

Yep, and that is the plain ol' vanilla 404 Jeffery "Shortclaw."

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
... RIP mentioned in his previous posts that he can easily get +2,800 fps with a 330 gr. bullet in a 404. Is there that much difference in that load vs. a 350 gr. @ 2,825 fps in the Rigby? I'd think they would both be good for long distance shooting.

Yep, and that is the plain ol' vanilla 404 Jeffery "Shortclaw."

Rip
.

yo dudes, that's not apples to apples.

whatever the 404 does, a cartridge with 15% more capacity will do more and will less strain.

Is the 330grain bullet the GSC with low friction bands? I wonder what it could do in the Rigby? 2950? Could it reach 3000fps? I don't know but that would be pushing things.

I'm happy with 2825fps and the 350TTSX. Why? I do not need a plan on more than 300 yards in typical African hunting and this load is good for 400 yards. At 2825fps and sighted in with a 2.1" max height (2.0" zero at 100yards) it drops -7" at 300 yards and -21" at 400 yards with only 12" 10mph-wind drift at 400yards.

And the Rigby is a traditional Africa, feels great in the palm, AND has a well-proportioned neck.

3000 fps and 2800 fps on a 404 or 416 ? Why ???

The old original low and slow does just fine ! Seriously a 404 loaded to its original spec ia a wonderful cartridge and amazingly capable. So is the Original 410 @ 2300 Rigby though the 416 Rigby was a way bigger rifle and not as common (in number) as the 404.

The same applies to the old 375 Why anyone wants to hot rod it I don't understand because in its original form it does jut fine. I grew up with a 375 , got my first one on my 13th birthday , even downloaded it so it's recoil felt like 30-06.... and I killed many many african animals with it .

quote:

2800 fps on a 404 or 416 ? Why ???

As just stated, the rifle is good for 400 yards.

Yep, that is a GSC HV .423/330-grainer
with which the 404 Jeffery so easily exercises dominion at +2800 fps MV.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
I did a search on this topic as I assumed it had been done before, but couldn't find anything.

Several things to consider of course: case capacity, action size, rifle size/weight, case size/number of rounds down, ammo/components availability, nostalgia, etc.

It's all just personal preference. My vote? 404 Jeffery. What is yours?

Poll Results so far:

62% prefer the 404 Jeffery
32% 38% prefer the .416 Rigby

Rip
.

You meant 38%. And we let the other 62% do what they wish.

As I said earlier, I originally wanted a 404 Jeffery but ended up buying the CZ Kevlar 416 Rigby. It was matter of limited choice.

Having shot a few other big bores, I loved shooting the 450/400 Webley and the 404 Jeffery was the bolt action equivalent.

I never got to shoot a 404 Jeffery but it handles like the 450/400, then I can understand why it is so popular.

The only issue for me is the difficulty in getting brass etc.

Huh ? 400 yards ? What on earth are you hunting at 400 yards in Africa with a 404 ?
400 yards on whatever is denying yourself the experience of a real hunt.... all you are doing is shooting at animals

In max hot loads the 404 can come within 100 FPS of a 416 Rigby, all things equal..but I see no reason to shoot either at over 2400 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet, as that is time proven combination..

I have no use for 350 gr. bullet in either, same for the .458 I have no use for 450 gr. bullets, only the 500 gr. I speak for myself only and care not what someone else prefers, its all about personal choice and the two in question simply boil down to that and that alone, one is not better than the other, both are equal in all respects other than the rifle itself which is more compact, leaner, in the 404. As to recoil, I can detect no difference and ballistics are the same, so punishment has to be in the stock fit I suspect.

404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby?

50 (61%): 404 Jeffery: WINNER

32 (39%): 416 Rigby: LOSER

Above is copied up to date. One more .416 Rigby fan voted.

To 404 Jeffery champions, honest men with common sense and no personal agenda:
If you have not voted, please vote.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby?

50 (61%): 404 Jeffery: WINNER

32 (39%): 416 Rigby: LOSER

Above is copied up to date. One more .416 Rigby fan voted.

To 404 Jeffery champions, honest men with common sense and no personal agenda:
If you have not voted, please vote.

Rip
.

If I wanted 404 ballistics in a lean rifle I would get a 416 Ruger. Maybe drop down to a 20" barrel. Sweet.

But for
better brass availability and price,
bullets and bullets selection, with high BC options,
flexibility for 'red hot loads' and
also easy loads at 2825fps with 350TTSX (.444BC),
or 2650fps with 400 grain loads,
higher powder capacity for case lengths of 2.86-2.90 inches,
higher muzzle energy for rifle actions that can handle 2.86"+ cases,
and good looking necks, (I don't like goose necks on a bottle-neck cartridge)
- - -
the 416 Rigby is the choice.

Or for old-timey ballistics: the 416 Ruger. The 416 Ruger is the slim lean choice for someone looking for 404 ballistics.

A winner is having the rifle that one wants. And that says it all.

No not looking for 404 Ballistics or a Weatherby, or a ROOGER or anything remotely in that line.

Just simply a 404 ! As original as possible, no plastic stocks no muzzle brakes.

You either get it or not !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


No not looking for 404 Ballistics or a Weatherby, or a ROOGER or anything remotely in that line.

Just simply a 404 ! As original as possible, no plastic stocks no muzzle brakes.

You either get it or not !

Q: "Which do you prefer, 404 Jeffery or .416 Rigby?"

A: .416 Ruger

Jack O’Conner used the 416 Rigby, not the 404.

JACK USED THE .270 AS OPPOSED TO THE 30-06, BUT HE LIKED THE 06 BEST..SOOO SINCE JACK WAS A SAVVY GUY, HE SHOT THE 416 BUT HE LIKED THE 404 BEST, MAKES SINCE TO ME! YEEHAW!!!

Speaking of the CZ built 404 Jeffery's, can someone tell me what they think a barely used one is worth. It's in like new condition.

I know someone that has one for sale and I'd like to know before talking to him.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


No not looking for 404 Ballistics or a Weatherby, or a ROOGER or anything remotely in that line/.

Just simply a 404 ! As original as possible, no plastic stocks no muzzle brakes.

You either get it or not !

which do you prefer, the 416 remington or weatherby

I am in the process of putting together a 416/404 Jeffery on a Remington 1917 action.

So would that be the best of each or the worst of each?

It will make a good light rifle behind the 550 Gibbs and the 476 AccRel

quote:

Originally posted by npd345:
I am in the process of putting together a 416/404 Jeffery on a Remington 1917 action.
So would that be the best of each or the worst of each? ...

It would be a .416 Dakota, best of each.
It died on the vine like so many other good things.
I have one that was built on an M70 Win RUM action, with 1:12" Douglas barrel.

Rip
Godfather of Guntoberfest
Founding Member of The.458 Win.Mag. Longcol Aficianados Fraternity

quote:

Originally posted by lrich:
Speaking of the CZ built 404 Jeffery's, can someone tell me what they think a barely used one is worth. It's in like new condition.

I know someone that has one for sale and I'd like to know before talking to him.

The 2017 Blue Book is little help on prices.
Page 412:
CZ 550 Safari Classic (Custom Grade Safari Magnum):

Blue Book says that model rifle was new for 2005, and apparently the .404 Jeffery was among the first chamberings offered from the outset:
.505 Gibbs
.404 Jeffery
.450 Rigby
Other chamberings have come and gone, i.e., ".500 Jeffery (new 2007)," etc.
Only price info they state is this: "Last MSR in 2015 was $3,268. This model is currently P.O.R."

I have all the CZ-USA manufacturer's catalogs since 2005.

Yup, the .404 Jeffery first showed up in the 2006 catalog, "MSRP $2350."
I bought one off the shelf at the local emporium for about $1800 IIRC, in 2006.
It was the earliest model and had no stock crossbolts at all.
I had crossbolts professionally installed and the fancy walnut broke clean in two at the wrist.
CZ-USA replaced it anyway, and I chose the Kevlar stock (now called Aramid) for free.

They have improved the rifles since 2006, and the prices have gone up a lot, to cover the past expenses of replacing broken stocks, I reckon.

There is a .450 Rigby that has been at the local emporium for about the last 10 years.
It is priced too high at about $2500, sitting there a long time, new gun, old make, no crossbolts.

Price is going to depend on the rifle's features, and condition, of course.
I would offer no more than $1000 for a basic, no-crossbolts, first-year-production model in 95% or better condition.
No more than $2000 for a later-production one with all the bells and whistles (including integral peep), in 95% or better condition.
But that is just me, a jaded fool.
So I probably won't be buying anymore of them,
even though the CZ 404 Jeffery is the slickest feeder that CZ-USA ever built on a CZ 550 Magnum.


Rip
Godfather of Guntoberfest
Founding Member of The.458 Win.Mag. Longcol Aficianados Fraternity

Thanks Rip

Larry, There are different models with significantly different prices for the large bore models. According to the current price list the 404 Jeffery is listed as Safari Classic in gloss or matte and fancy grade stock, list price $3268. The 458 Lott is also listed available in that model with same price, but the 458 Lott is also listed American Safari Magnum, same description but without the fancy stock, price $1348. I'm not sure what the differences are in the rifle, but one is twice the price as the other and the only listed difference is the stock. Possibly one is "as is" imported , while the other is assembled in the USA shop.

If you get the basic one and send it to Wayne at AHR you would have a great rifle starting at around $3.5k total. If you got Wayne to do just restock it, it might be less.

If I may stir a little debate, since the 450/400 was listed as equivalent, what about the 45-70 at +P loads of 2100fps and 408 gr. Admittedly larger diameter. Do the higher speed loads approach the .404 in performance. I ve used .416 Dakota but prefer my Gibbs .505.