quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:Perfect example of what happens when you overdrive a lead or lead jacketed bullet into a tough target.

But that is precisely why you don't "overdrive" them. I said it before that they can maintain their shape if you don't push them too fast.

Need an up date on the definition of hard cast lead. Is there just more tin melted in with the lead before casting? What is the alloy?
Rodney.

I wonder why the high performance hard cast bullet ammunition is doing so well??? If it doesn't work, like some say, then it would not sell. Ammunition which performs poorly, gets a bad reputation real quick. Sales would disappear.

Hard cast bullets need to be wheelweight alloy and heat treated to produce a BHN of 18-20. If they are too hard, they shatter.

I use hard cast bullets and traditional solids. Each performs well if loaded properly.

quote:

Originally posted by Big 5 Encores:
I wonder why the high performance hard cast bullet ammunition is doing so well??? If it doesn't work, like some say, then it would not sell. Ammunition which performs poorly, gets a bad reputation real quick. Sales would disappear.

Hard cast bullets need to be wheelweight alloy and heat treated to produce a BHN of 18-20. If they are too hard, they shatter.

I use hard cast bullets and traditional solids. Each performs well if loaded properly.

it DOESN'T "do so sell" dang it.. do you tihnk garrett sells 5% as much as hornady, comparing lott to hammerhead 45/70?
Dude, you are making crap up

Thanks Big Five, I was thinking wheel weight equivalent lead alloy but wasn't sure.
Rodney.

It's my opinion the Garret 45-70 ammo has there own following of customers because they load their ammo up to "Marlin" pressures for those that don't reload.
Rodney.

Kevin, check your PMs.......

"wheel weight" is a generic term for hardened lead, not a chemical compound.

Seriously, man, you need to be consistent

Like a bunch of kids, and exactly what the original poster intended..
He gave you all a bucket of shit and a stick and sat back to watch it get flung on the walls.
It is really amusing to watch actually.
There has really not been a wrong or false statement made in this thread that matters a damn.
It is really a few guys making sense, and a bunch defending the ideas they have some emotion invested in.

Big hard lead bullets work really well if not driven too hard or else they deform or shatter,, been there, seen it.

They don't work as well in some situations as modern solids at higher velocity.

Pretty fuggin complicated...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
"wheel weight" is a generic term for hardened lead, not a chemical compound.

Seriously, man, you need to be consistent

Actually you are incorrect. Wheelweights are an exact alloy (95.5% lead, 4% Antimony, 0.5% Tin) and the perfect alloy for cast bullets. Wheelweights are not hardened either.

I have experience with casting bullets and hunting with them. Do you?

Watch this video. You'll see Buffalo dropped with a 44 mag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTeEmNUkjw

I can completely assure you that a 500gr FP 360brass alloy .458 bullet at 2600fps will outpenetrate a 500gr FP .458 Linotype bullet of the same design at 1400fps in any medium whatsoever up to Armour plate(or anything so hard the bullet will disintegrate rather than penetrate). I suggest Tissue is the best medium, but ballistic Gelatin, wood etc will be satisfactory The 360 alloy brass bullet will not deform and will go straight. Similarily, in the chosen medium the 500gr Linotype bullet will not deform and will go straight.
ITs Momentum vs Momentum and KE vs KE. Straight up and no smoke and mirrors! Chronos to verify velocity. Any reasonable barrel length is OK
I'm willing to put money up against anyone who would like to take my bet? Lets say $500 to keep it real and fun.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Big 5 Encores:
I have experience with casting bullets and hunting with them. Do you?

ONLY 2.5" cannon, .577 NE,58caliber muzzle loads, 550 magnum, 550 expres, 550 flanged, 500 jeffe, 500 Ar, 510 wells, 50 cal muzzle loaders, 470 NE, 470 AR, 470 Mbogo, 458 AR, 458 Lott, 458 winmag, 45/120, 45/70, 45LC, 45cal muzzle loaders. 416 rem, Rigby, Taylor, and AR .. 32/20, 7.62x39, 308, 8x57, and 22LR...

So, just a tad or experience with cast bullets, thanks.

Hey Rob, did I shoot any casts in your 585?

Kevin, seriously, take your "wheelweight" bullet and run it 1500 fps, and the SAME BULLET and run it 2300 . the BULLET fails - you can't argue with that.

then take a brass solid, and run it the same .. and the faster one out penetrates the slower one

EVERY TIME

These are facts, not opinions.

Just $500 Rob? Man, seriously, if there's someone who's sucker enough to cover that bet, you are doing them a FAVOR for taking the rest of their money.

Bring on those magic lead bullets.. lets compare head to head with brass .. can go either same length or same weight, your call.

Jeffe- No we shot Woodleigh softs in the .585 Nyati that were pretty overdriven and became smokin balls after only a few feet of penetration. I was going to give them the same weight advantage but make the brass bullet EXACTLY the same design.
I kept the wager low to flush out someone STUPID enough to cover it.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I can completely assure you that a 500gr FP 360brass alloy .458 bullet at 2600fps will outpenetrate a 500gr FP .458 Linotype bullet of the same design at 1400fps in any medium whatsoever up to Armour plate(or anything so hard the bullet will disintegrate rather than penetrate). I suggest Tissue is the best medium, but ballistic Gelatin, wood etc will be satisfactory The 360 alloy brass bullet will not deform and will go straight. Similarily, in the chosen medium the 500gr Linotype bullet will not deform and will go straight.
ITs Momentum vs Momentum and KE vs KE. Straight up and no smoke and mirrors! Chronos to verify velocity. Any reasonable barrel length is OK
I'm willing to put money up against anyone who would like to take my bet? Lets say $500 to keep it real and fun.-Rob

My curiosity is how velocity affects penetration. Try the same bullet at 1500, 1800, 2200 and 2600 fps. I think 2600 fps is too fast for optimum penetration in animal tissue.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Big 5 Encores:
I have experience with casting bullets and hunting with them. Do you?

ONLY 2.5" cannon, .577 NE,58caliber muzzle loads, 550 magnum, 550 expres, 550 flanged, 500 jeffe, 500 Ar, 510 wells, 50 cal muzzle loaders, 470 NE, 470 AR, 470 Mbogo, 458 AR, 458 Lott, 458 winmag, 45/120, 45/70, 45LC, 45cal muzzle loaders. 416 rem, Rigby, Taylor, and AR .. 32/20, 7.62x39, 308, 8x57, and 22LR...

So, just a tad or experience with cast bullets, thanks.

Hey Rob, did I shoot any casts in your 585?

Kevin, seriously, take your "wheelweight" bullet and run it 1500 fps, and the SAME BULLET and run it 2300 . the BULLET fails - you can't argue with that.

then take a brass solid, and run it the same .. and the faster one out penetrates the slower one

EVERY TIME

These are facts, not opinions.

Quite right...cast bullets are not designed for high velocity.

Hard cast solids perform at 1200 - 1800 fps and perform well.

[/QUOTE]

it DOESN'T "do so sell" dang it.. do you tihnk garrett sells 5% as much as hornady, comparing lott to hammerhead 45/70?
Dude, you are making crap up[/QUOTE]

Hornady doesn't sell large quantities of 458 Lott. They're sellers are .223, .308 and 30-06.

And Randy Garrett does sell a lot of ammo and so does Grizzly Cartridge Company and Buffalo Bore. They're selling point is hard cast bullets loaded to moderate velocities. The reputation of the ammo has brought them to their current business status - Very Busy!!!

Rob, you are missing the point entirely. Of course the monometal bullet will penetrate deeper. The issue is that the cast bullet penetrates enough. If my cast .475 420 grain WFN at a leisurely 1,350 fps with its piss-poor sectional density has enough stink to exit a buffalo, can we not deem that performance as adequate? How much penetration is "enough?"

Big 5 Encores- I can tell you exactly how velocity effects penetration with FP Brass bullets. The penetration in any normal medium (tissue, wet paper ballistic gelatin, building materials etc) will increase with velocity until the bullet begins to deform, penetration will then decrease with increasing deformation. period!
That deformation will occur with Hard cast lead alloy bullets ( in the medium described above) around 1700fps and be totally complete at around 2400fps-2700fps. I.e. it will go in 6 -12 inches and fragment( fragments wont go far either).
The brass monometal bullet will stay intact even through bone till over 3300fps when the brass will begin to deform. 2600fps is NOT TOO FAST for a monometal bullet. Realize that even a .460WBY doesnt have enough powder capacity to drive a 500 gr. much faster. Best I ever got was 2650fps. Now lets discuss extremely hard medium! I've shot even harder stuff like Tugsten carbide FP bullets over 3300fps and they will completely penetrate 4" of 4140 steel plate. Guess what a hard cast alloy bullet becomes at this velocity in this medium? DUST! A brass bullet at these speeds wont penetrate much if at all either in this extreme medium which is harder than the bullet material itself. Are you getting the picture now?
I agree cast bullets work fine in a more limited velocity range where the bullet doesnt deform in the normal media like tissue. The harder the bullet naterial the faster it can be driven before it hits that deformation velocity. A harder bullet driven at the higest velocity it can withstand before it deforms in any medum will always penetrate farther than a softer bullet. The faster bullet will also have more Kinetic energy and will do more peripheral damage(i.e temporary and permanent wound channels). These are facts not fiction. Thus comparing a soft point bullet driven beyond its deformation velocity in a .416 Rigby will always penetrate less than a hard cast bullet at velocities below its deformation velocity. Try this with a brass solid( harder than hard cast lead alloys) and the hard cast bullet loses every single time. No smoke and mirrors. There are also many times where you dont want maximum penetration but a huge Kinetic energy dump, like in shooting people or Buffalo, where you want to STOP them. Thats where controlled expansion( using specifically shaped HP bullets with soft metals) at defined velocities is critically important. Finally, this is why Copper monometal bullets may be the best compromise as they can be SELECTIVELY hardened to both Penetrate and expand in the envelope between brass bullets and Hard cast lead. The best of both worlds! Hope this helps! -Rob

Rob,

So you believe faster is better up to the disintegration velocity? Interesting!!!

I just get a huge kick out of the performance of the .475 Linebaugh, .454 Casull, 45-70, 500 Linebaugh and 500 S&W. These little cartridges fully penetrate Cape Buffalo with their slow cast bullets or solid punch bullets. It is just amazing!!!

Whitworth et al ( including the "lets hunt elephant with bows and arrows " brigade)

Does your projectile, whether hardcast at nominal velocity or arrow at it's best velocity possible have enough momentum / energy per unit of cross sectional area to breach a stray humerus or femur of one of the "supersize" animals if it should get into the way ? ( And they do from time to time)

That after all is all that is important ? The perfect shot is not at issue here because almost anything out there that you poke or prod in the animals direction will be able to kill if all were perfect.

So please show me this is indeed so and if so that the projectile would after breaching these particular bones still have enough horsepower left to do the dirty deed. The same would apply to the firing of your particular brand of projectile through the slurry of ground up grass and plantmatter found in the guts of these large beasts.

I would put it to you based on experience and science that backs this up that it takes more than just a slow FN piece of lead to bust through bone of that quality and mass, not even to mention the inability of a broadhead tipped arrow.

What most here may not know is that in the case of bone a FN bullet actually loses more energy than an ogived bullet on impact and passage through the bone, leaving the passing projectile then will less potential energy. This is a fact confirmed by experiment using fresh cow bone. This is actually true for all tissue but because of instability issues with ogived projectiles in tissue the FN wins

Big 5 Encores- Not Disintegration velocity, the velocity where the bullet nose begins to deform. After that its a KE dump( like any expanding bullet) and penetration drops off exponentially! I own 454 Casuls, 500S&W's,but no Linebaughs and have loaded them with brass solids, Linotype bullets etc and still have serious doubts about a stem to stern exit on a Cape Buffalo. I have honestly never been that impressed with any of them other than to impress people with little firearms experience with their big booms! I would not even try hunting DG with one because I know if things went wrong those guns would not stop a MBOGO except by accident or a lucky CNS hit at extremely close range! Actually only seen one verified stem to stern and that was a .500a2 with a 500gr monometal brass FP solid( 2700fps), that killed a nice bull running away from me, exited and killed a cow standing behind it. I had to pay for both! I have that bullet and it could be reloaded and shot again!-Rob

Hey Guys
Guess it's time for me to put my BS in the pot too! Of course this has to do with bullets, I'm a bullet freak, and I have been watching so I can maybe get the jest of everything going on.

Some of you know I do some bullet tests here on the compound. I use wet print! Some say good-some nay sayers say bad. Too bad, this is what I do. It is fairly consistent, and you can get good comparisons between bullets.

In the old days I used straight wet news print. Over the last couple of years I have inserted a mix of catalogs and magazines in the mix. Much to my surprise I learned the wet print/mag mix is very tough-roughly 30% tougher on bullets than straight wet print. But I have so much of this material on hand it makes good sense to put it to proper use.

First everything stated is my experience only. There are many variables that can and do change results from test to test.

The question or discussion seems to be that a particular cast bullet driven at lower velocity will out penetrate a similar bullet at higher velocity.

In my test work-along with my field experience, this cannot happen. The exact same bullet driven at 1500 fps will NOT penetrate as deep as the same bullet driven at 2000 plus fps. Not going to happen in this lifetime. I have never tested solids at over 2450 fps, so I cannot attest to velocities of the same bullet over that. Good example is some work I have done with some of my .500 caliber rifles. I have a 455 gr FN Solid that I have tested in the 50 Super Short and the 50 B&M Long. Same bullet at 1850 fps will penetrate around 43 inches of wet print/mag mix. Same bullet at 2140 fps will penetrate 56 inches of the same mix. That is a big difference, the only factor involved is velocity.

I personally believe in the velocity factor to a point. I think higher velocity will reach a point of diminishing returns at some point, and this depends on nose profile to a large extent.

Nose profile is EVERYTHING, exceeding all other factors, including sectional density and velocity. And in addition to that-ALL FLAT NOSE PROFILES are NOT CREATED EQUAL. The slightest change in profile can make a tremendous difference. For example:

This is apples and oranges-two different bullets-2 different profiles-cartridges,velocity everything. 50 B&M Long 510 gr .500 caliber barnes type design FN profile 2050 fps----510 Wells MODIFIED 570 gr Barnes FN to 548 grs at 2325 fps. Now I say modified because my 510 Wells is a big Ruger action and WILL NOT feed the 570 Barnes FN at all. So I had the nose profile modified (smaller meplat) so that it would feed in the Ruger. The meplat on the .510 went down to around .25 caliber as best I can measure. My box will hold 65 inches of wet print. I had no doubts that it would not contain the 548 gr bullet at 2325 fps. Well the bullet only penetrated to 43 inches total! While the larger meplat .500 caliber, 510 gr bullet penetrated the full 65 inches! I have zero doubt that had I kept the larger meplat that come on the original bullet that penetration would have been much better. I have not tested that, as I had little interest the last few years in .510 caliber. This is a case of NOSE PROFILE not velocity and not an argument for lower velocity.

Before the coming of the big flat nose meplat bullets designed for handguns and the larger caliber lever guns, these types of firearms left a great deal to be desired. With the invent of these bullets for these guns it puts them in an entirely different world. They can now get adequate penetration to do the larger jobs demanded of them, because of Nose Profile! Are they equal to a larger caliber rifle with a similar type solid at higher velocity? NO NO NO, and never will be. ARE THEY ADEQUATE for larger jobs demanded of them? They will give adequate penetration with the right nose profile. I have done so. Adequate---not superior.

So where are we exactly?

Two exact same FN profile bullets-1500 fps and 2000 fps--

2000 fps (or more) will penetrate deeper.

NOSE PROFILE IS EVERYTHING.

ALL FN NOSE PROFILES ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL

Higher Velocity with the exact same bullet will give deeper penetration

The big cast flat meplats have adequate penetration to do most jobs demanded of them. Adequate--Not superior to a modern designed FN Solid designed for heavier caliber rifles driving velocities of 2000 fps +.

This is my take on the situation. I have tested both in similar test medium.

Michael

quote:

In the old days I used straight wet news print. Over the last couple of years I have inserted a mix of catalogs and magazines in the mix.

I can tell you that newsprint, catalogs, and magazines are NOT what they were in the "old days". The paper is much thinner and the ink is often soy-based, not lead-based; this was brought about by a sinister cabal of cast bullet hucksters purveyors in order to enhance their penetration examples.


George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

In the old days I used straight wet news print. Over the last couple of years I have inserted a mix of catalogs and magazines in the mix.

I can tell you that newsprint, catalogs, and magazines are NOT what they were in the "old days". The paper is much thinner and the ink is often soy-based, not lead-based; this was brought about by a sinister cabal of cast bullet hucksters purveyors in order to enhance their penetration examples.


George

I think they're using some PTFE based ink now too ...

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

In the old days I used straight wet news print. Over the last couple of years I have inserted a mix of catalogs and magazines in the mix.

I can tell you that newsprint, catalogs, and magazines are NOT what they were in the "old days". The paper is much thinner and the ink is often soy-based, not lead-based; this was brought about by a sinister cabal of cast bullet hucksters purveyors in order to enhance their penetration examples.


George

Wow...so you think cast bullet manufacturers changed the composition of newsprint and magazines in order to sell more bullets??? That's quite a stretch.

I think if you lined up a few feet of cow bone followed by wet paper, tree stumps etc, and shoot it with two identical weight FN bullets( with different hardnesses( Linotype vs Brass) at the same speed, that the harder material bullet will penetrate further because the harder bullet material will resist nose deformation longer. Thats the truth behind the Garret smoke and mirrors. Yup a soft point RN woodleigh from a .416 Rigby at 2400fps wont penetrate further than a 45-70 at 1400fps with a Hard Bullet! Change to a FN brass solid in that Rigby at 2400fps and the 45-70 loses every time! Once that bullet deformation happens, penetration and stability rapidly declines. We all know FN bullets penetrate straighter and further than Ogived bullets. This is a function of stabilization in any given media.-Rob

Rob - why don't you use the Heym for the test. Invite the cult members to supply you with any 800 grain lead bullet they can conjure up. I'll supply you with some 800 grain SHARRC FN's. How's about 3 different loads with each bullet into a standardized medium of anything they can come up with ...jelly, wood, concrete, whatever...

quote:

Originally posted by Big 5 Encores:
Hornady doesn't sell large quantities of 458 Lott.

And the rest, gentlemen, follows suit from this myth.

Your cab has arrived

Kevin,

It's obvious that my humor escaped you. Go back and re-read it. See the ?

In any case, since nothing new or substantive was proffered in this thread, and I don't see any takers for Rob & Jeff's challenge, this thread is closed.

Let's move on to something else.

George