GENTLEMEN,

Just so you'll know,the previous words were just to get your attention.The subject title is sheer sarcasm.So you'll understand the source(me),I'm 60 years old and have been a Handloader,amatuer gunsmith,big bore rifle shooter,etc,etc for over 40 years.

I will state at the beginning that I don't care to get in a debate with anyone who has the opposing view simply because I've heard it all already.

I've noticed more and more that the grossly exaggerated benefits of 19th century ballistics and hard cast bullets have become so firmly implanted in the psyche of so many shooters that it's reached almost a cult like status.

Reasonably intelligent people who should be able to use reason and logic simply don't.Most here know who the characters are which sell this "snake oil".The people who are selling it are benefiting financially by tapping into a market where people with mediocre powered firearms are assured that they have train stoppers due to a slight increase in velocity and using hard cast bullets.

They are furthur assured that slower is better yet no one seems to be asking"why then are these same rounds loaded to the max"?Demonstrations of penetration comparisons are conducted whereby something like a 416 Rigby with softpoint expanding bullets are compared with a 45/70 shooting hard cast bullets and the 45/70 wins.It never seems to occur to anyone why the 416 is not using solids.

We all know that there are morons in our world but I notice more and more how this mindset is expanding.You can hear it in the dialogue.I'm sure that most of you know what I'm talking about.I have heard some of this mindless nonsense from educated people.

Perhaps I'm just blowing off some steam in frustration.Any thoughts?

The only first hand experience I have is 1-12 30 Cals definitely shoot cast better than 1-10 barrels. That is what we have found with a pretty small sample group of guns.

rymx,
A lot of those folks are only shooting whitetails.
Anything will work on a white tail if you get close enough. Not everyone is read to spend $1 a bullet. I am one of them. I don't even use hard cast bullets (just wheel weights) and I don't shoot white tails. If the bullet goes through a target where I am aiming I am happy.

quote:

Perhaps I'm just blowing off some steam in frustration.Any thoughts?

Yeap,

I was shooting my Guide Gun the other weekend. Two guys came over and started talking. They explained to me how a hard cast lead bullet at 1800-1900 is way better for African game than any .416 or .458 Mag. I smiled and nodded.

quote:

Originally posted by rymx:
I'm sure that most of you know what I'm talking about.
Any thoughts?

I don't. Please explain it to me.

oh my .. core drilling the planet by dropping a wheel weight...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
oh my .. core drilling the planet by dropping a wheel weight...

I've killed all my dangerous game with a wrist rocket and soft cast bullets from recycled fishing weights and roof flashing...

You mean the 45-70 I just brought with 450 hard cast at 1400 fps well not beat my 416 taylor with a 400 gr bullet at 2300. Iam just shocked.

Good thing someone told me before I booked DG hunt with just the 45-70 Dam Iam lucky to be alive.
Sarcasm off

I'll use what I want you use what you want. I could care less what you use unless my life is on the line then we'll talk before we go hunting.

I think there is a certain charm to getting a job done with the least amount of fuss and bother. That doesn't mean that killing an elk with a 160-grain bullet at 2200 from a 6.5X54 Mannlicher is a better idea than doing it with a 129-grain Hornady at 3400 from a .264. These are just two different ways to go, and I am personally charmed by the former. I am selling off my last magnum, and the most powerful centerfire left in the gun safe is the 9,3X62 -- sort of a ho-hum 1905 number. It's in there with the .303 sporter and the Savage .250-3000.

To each is own..I guess. However Afica's Big 5 have been taken with the 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh and the 500 S&W Mag to name a few...all with cast bullets too. And the 45-70 also.

Maybe talk to Randy Garrett about how slow heavy cast bullets are not effective against dangerous game. He might have something to say about that. Also Mike Rintoul of Cast Performance Bullets.

The fact is that slower heavy cast bullets have taken every game animal on the planet. It is a fact.

Remember the 8 bore and the 4 bore? They were the preferred DGR. Just another big heavy bullet at 1500 fps stopping dangerous game.

I would like to know why the 460 Weatherby is not popular in Africa? Or how about the 378 Weatherby...plenty of velocity there.

I believe in actual scenarios. If a hunter has taken buffalo with the 475 Linebaugh and experienced deep penetration with cast bullets then I would say that it is effective against buffalo. But if it took 10 shots and bullet penetration was limited, I would say it's not effective.

People have their own theories about stopping dangerous game. Some like specific numbers on paper while others like performance on game.

I have taken Water Buffalo and American Bison with the 45-70 and Beartooth 525 grain Pile Driver bullets loaded to 1500 fps. Each animal took 2 shots and was down. Penetration was complete with broken shoulder bones in both. Based on this experience, I would feel the 45-70 is indeed effective against buffalo.

I a not a slow heavy bullet soldier because I also have a .470 Capstick, .458 Win Mag, .416 Ruger and .375 Ruger. They all are quite effective also. I also have a 45-70 and 500 S&W Mag rifles that are also effective on large and dangerous game. My 500 S&W Magnum rifle launches a 440 grain WFNGC at 2000 fps. It penetrates extremely well. The 500 S&W only uses about 42 grains of powder and has light recoil.

There are lots of cartridges that are effective on dangerous game and not always the 500 grain at 2150 fps or 400 grain at 2400 fps.

I don't believe velocity kills game. So it really depends on the projectile weight, shape and velocity. Strange things happen when you run into hydrostatic shock. The 50 BMG will only penetrate about 2 feet of water...Myth Busters test.

I just believe in what works consistently!

KDM

garrett, and other's, "advice" is that an X grain bullet at 1500 out penetrates at 2150, all else being equal.

Their stand point is NOT "it is good enough" .. they say its BETTER ...

Its simply UNTRUE
http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

Read that article prior to replying, please

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KDM

garrett, and other's, "advice" is that an X grain bullet at 1500 out penetrates at 2150, all else being equal.

Their stand point is NOT "it is good enough" .. they say its BETTER ...

Its simply UNTRUE
http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

Read that article prior to replying, please

I saw the video test. But wood is not tissue. I don't know why people test bullet penetration in dry wood. Tissue is 90% water.

I wish the test was on a buffalo, live or dead.

quote:

Originally posted by KDM Custom:
To each is own..I guess. However Afica's Big 5 have been taken with the 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh and the 500 S&W Mag to name a few...all with cast bullets too. And the 45-70 also.

They've also been taken with bow & arrow, poisoned arrows, crossbows, spears, and dead falls. That doesn't mean there aren't better methods and tools available.

The fact that you manufacture and sell cast bullets wouldn't have something to do with your position, would it?

This has been hashed out dozens of times before here and elsewhere, so unless you and the OP have something new to add to the debate, we'll just pass on this topic.

Thanks,
George

quote:

Tissue is 90% water

Maybe YOUR tissue is 90% but mine is about 53% ...

It's not that a heavy hardcast kills better or penetrates better a lower velocities than fast velocities, it is that they work better at subdued velocities because they tend to keep their nose shape in tact. Push 'em too fast and the nose distorts, thereby limiting straight line penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by KDM Custom:
I would like to know why the 460 Weatherby is not popular in Africa? Or how about the 378 Weatherby...plenty of velocity there.

Having owned both the .378 & .460 and several of the "big slow" calibres .

The PH's I know actually don't prefer to see someone with more gun than they shoot well.

That goes for someone flinching from a 460WM or a light .500NE .

They would rather see someone with a .375 in a properly weighted gun for clients they see as
"casual" hunters coming to camp with "too much" gun for them.

I have never heard a PH complain about any calibre rifle (except ones with muzzle breaks) in the hands of hunters they know can shoot.

Just my 2 cents.

quote:

Originally posted by KDM Custom:
The 50 BMG will only penetrate about 2 feet of water...Myth Busters test.

Didn't see that one.
I know my .460 out penetrated my .500NE (solids)
in my milk jug & wet phonebook sandwich with standard paneling scraps between as support.
Been a few years don't recall exactly the number of layers total , do recall the .460 exited the 500 did not.

That having been said, Ive been very impressed with the penetration of both the.460 and .500 S&W hand- cannons with hard casts , and my 45/70 450gr GC as well.

Hit 'em in the right spot with a good stoutly constructed bullet and don't worry so much about slow or fast.

Hey Jeffe- Why dont we do a .460WBY with 500 gr monometal bullet ( .458 Darwin) vs a 45-70 500gr cast bullet penetration comparo at the Big bore shoot next month. Dead Cows end to end? Lets end this BS once and for all. I'll bring the .460WBY can you round up some Garret Hammerheads and a Guide gun ( somebody else can shoot that POS. I'd take bets but doubt anyone there will bet against me ( They actually have experience with Big Bores).-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by KDM Custom:
To each is own..I guess. However Afica's Big 5 have been taken with the 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh and the 500 S&W Mag to name a few...all with cast bullets too. And the 45-70 also.

They've also been taken with bow & arrow, poisoned arrows, crossbows, spears, and dead falls. That doesn't mean there aren't better methods and tools available.

The fact that you manufacture and sell cast bullets wouldn't have something to do with your position, would it?

This has been hashed out dozens of times before here and elsewhere, so unless you and the OP have something new to add to the debate, we'll just pass on this topic.

Thanks,
George

George,

Like I said, I also shoot the .458 Win Mag, .470 Capstick and .375 Ruger. I don't use cast bullets in these.

I don't support cast bullets just because I used to sell them...they just work! And so do Woodleigh solids and North Fork.

Better methods...If you drop a buffalo with 2 shots from a 45-70, what is a better method?

KDM,

one reason the three big Weatherbys are not real popular in Africa is based on the people who use them. They are either really, really good shots; or mediocre shots who want to shoot "one of everything, just my buddy Ed has in his trophy room...". They come magna-ported and make a lot of noise, which PH's and their crews find obnoxious to be near when they go off. All that unneeded extra velocity comes at a heavy price; and is not useful at the close ranges most DG is taken at. That, and they're really ugly IMHO.

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
KDM,

one reason the three big Weatherbys are not real popular in Africa is based on the people who use them. They are either really, really good shots; or mediocre shots who want to shoot "one of everything, just my buddy Ed has in his trophy room...". They come magna-ported and make a lot of noise, which PH's and their crews find obnoxious to be near when they go off. All that unneeded extra velocity comes at a heavy price; and is not useful at the close ranges most DG is taken at. That, and they're really ugly IMHO.

Rich
Buff Killer

A buddy of mine took a .378 Weatherby to Africa for lion. He said it did no better than a .375 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Hey Jeffe- Why dont we do a .460WBY with 500 gr monometal bullet ( .458 Darwin) vs a 45-70 500gr cast bullet penetration comparo at the Big bore shoot next month. Dead Cows end to end? Lets end this BS once and for all. I'll bring the .460WBY can you round up some Garret Hammerheads and a Guide gun ( somebody else can shoot that POS. I'd take bets but doubt anyone there will bet against me ( They actually have experience with Big Bores).-Rob

Heck, Rob,
Bet we can NOT get the "bigNslow" proponents to fork up a little wager, basically the cost of buying 3 cows, to cover the tests.

I think one of they 'key' points being missed here is that the lead and slow folks have fallen into the ammo manufacturers marketing. They believe that the $500 lever guns with the $80 a box wonder ammo will owrk as well as the expensive rifle and premium ammo. The ammo manufacturer such as garrett or buffalo bore won't do anything but fuel the fire--- they are getting $80.00 for ammo you could cast and load at home for $10.00 a box. My guess is these same 45/70-- garret/buffalo bore guys fall for other marketing ploys too.

If slower was better then maybe the Marlin guide gun would be the choice rifle of PHs in Africa as a fail safe back up for when things go wrong. NOT. A good camp gun in Alaska yes, but not in my opinion a DGR.
Rodney.

quote:

Originally posted by Big 5 Encores:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KDM

garrett, and other's, "advice" is that an X grain bullet at 1500 out penetrates at 2150, all else being equal.

Their stand point is NOT "it is good enough" .. they say its BETTER ...

Its simply UNTRUE
http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

Read that article prior to replying, please

I saw the video test. But wood is not tissue. I don't know why people test bullet penetration in dry wood. Tissue is 90% water.

I wish the test was on a buffalo, live or dead.

Hi Kevin
To put your question into perspective and a tissue example.
I shot a blacktail deer dead center in the chest where the exit hole should have been at the Butt Hole. The gun was a 45/70 Marlin shooting a 405 grain hard cast solid. The bullet didn't make it but 3/4 of the way through the stomach. Velocity was 1875 fps. the yardage was 45 yards.
When I was in Africa I shot a Cape Buffalo with pretty much the same shot placement but at about 100 yards. The bullet was a Swift A-Frame(I know it's a soft point compared to basically a solid) and it penetrated right to the pelvic bone about three inches from a complete pass through. The bullet mushroomed out to .870. A solid would have been long gone through. It's kind of funny that dry plywood showed the same sort of results. I don't know why people think that using a different test medium that all of a sudden the slow bullet will perform magic and the faster bullet will just die off.

Even if your hard cast bullet did penetrate OK the difference in damage cause by the two different speeds has to be seen to be believed. A 500 grain premium bullet at 2500 fps has a very impressive impact. Just go shoot a couple of five gallon buckets of water or fill a five gallon bucket with drywall mud and shoot the two and see the difference.
Take care
Dave

What 470M'Bogo said; in spades!! I was real close to his 2500fps number last December with my CZ 450 Dakota, 500gr softs and solids at 2470. I got nearly complete penetration broadside at 165yds. That Buffalo did not move 10 feet after impact.

Perhaps a less expensive comparison would work...Ballistic Gelatin! It can be reused almost indefinitely.

Rich
Buff Killer

The only reason those .45-70 cast loads (like the Garretts) penetrate so well is the nose profile. They've got the right sized meplat and the correct shape. Nothing magic, and certainly nothing from the "19th Century." Those nose profiles work so well for straight line penetration that you are finally seeing similar profiles being used in solid bullets for big-bore DG rifles and guess what they have found out: the will handily out-penetrate a round nose solid design all things being equal. I don't own a .45-70, but I do have a .450 Ackley and a .416 Remmie, but you would be amazed at how well my .475 Linbaugh Ruger penetrates.

quote:

Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:

quote:

Originally posted by Big 5 Encores:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
KDM

garrett, and other's, "advice" is that an X grain bullet at 1500 out penetrates at 2150, all else being equal.

Their stand point is NOT "it is good enough" .. they say its BETTER ...

Its simply UNTRUE
http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

Read that article prior to replying, please

I saw the video test. But wood is not tissue. I don't know why people test bullet penetration in dry wood. Tissue is 90% water.

I wish the test was on a buffalo, live or dead.

Hi Kevin
To put your question into perspective and a tissue example.
I shot a blacktail deer dead center in the chest where the exit hole should have been at the Butt Hole. The gun was a 45/70 Marlin shooting a 405 grain hard cast solid. The bullet didn't make it but 3/4 of the way through the stomach. Velocity was 1875 fps. the yardage was 45 yards.
Even if your hard cast bullet did penetrate OK the difference in damage cause by the two different speeds has to be seen to be believed. A 500 grain premium bullet at 2500 fps has a very impressive impact. Just go shoot a couple of five gallon buckets of water or fill a five gallon bucket with drywall mud and shoot the two and see the difference.
Take care
Dave

Funny because I have shot many deer with a 420 grain WFNGC at 1250 fps without a single one being recovered. I've also shot them straight through Elk, hogs and Bison. I use Beartooth bullets and Cast Performance bullets. You must be using softer cast bullets.

Yes, I've used high velocity rounds for hunting too...470 Capstick - 500 grain at 2400 fps. It does complete penetration also.

I'm just saying that I have hunted dangerous game with slower heavy cast bullets and performance was very good. Penetration was complete or under the hide on the far side.

I just call them as I see them!!

The current crop of preachers from the Church of Glory of the Hardcast Bullet are snake oil salesmen !

Why simply because they are using clever illusion to claim that their bullets outperform standard or conventional bullets and they ascribe the performance based on low velocity. The myth of their claim lies in the fact that they they are not comparing apples to apples.

So I put a challenge to anyone who believes these claims to be true !

Take 45 cal hardcast Garret Hammerheads and fire them at varying velocity at a standardised visco-elastic target ( ballistics gelatine ) and see what happens, starting at conventional 45-70 velocities and building up to say 450 Rigby velocities.

What would the penetration to velocity graph look like ?

I will venture a wager !

Penetration will increase as velocity increases, but the gain in penetration will not be linear, it would based on the relationship between resistance to penetration and velocity be a deminishing return curve untill the velocity
( and resistance) gets so high, that it causes either ductile deformation or fragmentation of the cast bullet. At that point there would be a reversal of the curve.

So their claim to penetration based on low velocity only is bust, it does not exist not at least untill you get to the point where velocity is so high that it induces catastrophic drag forces on the lead.

Now we can repaeat the same with a "Low brass" or conventional Copper- nickel mono of simliar shape and weight.

We will find that the same penetration curve is going to happen but at the point where the lead bullet deformed or fragmented the copper or brass bullet is still going to go on penetrating untill a velocity is reached where the copper or brass is going to deform or fragment.

OK- BigNSLOW guys you been called out! Jeffe- how much for the 3 Cows? You guys have the stones to test your Guide guns against my poor ol Wby with monometal solids? Common cant be more than $300 to prove us wrong? If you dont buy in your admitting a mere .460 WBY will OUTPENETRATE a Garret 45-70. Lets get it on! I say total and complete BULLSHIT! Duh- I understand bullet design as well as Randy Garrett and just maybe better! Alf said it correctly but I doubt your listening. Lets let the actual shooting prove the point in real animals. I'd shoot live ones if they'd let me.-Rob

Kevin
Let me call them like I see them, too,.

Your experience, by your first post, is limited. You claim the 500 SW, 440 gr at 2050 to be the same as the 450/400. Totally ignoring sectional density, and why the 500 SW, in that config, wouldn't begin to penetrate as well as the 450/400.

Now, cast bullets.. 223s exit deer, sir, means nothing when we are talking 1800LBS vs 180 LB ..

FACTS are that a 45/70 with holyheadd bullets at 1500 aint going to do the damage of a 500gr jacketed bullet at 2150.

Physics, sir... Physics .. and I don't mean purgatives.

Rob - On the hoof? 600 bucks a cow, probably

I'm done with this thread, as some folks minds are made up, no matter what the facts say.

I would wager in on this as I need the money and if these are fresh cows, I'd like dibs on them too. There is just no comparison of a 45-70 Gvt hard cast bullet at any velocity vs a .460 Wby solid at normal hunting velocities.
Rodney.

Can we get 3 dead ones?-Rob

I got 3 45 LC rounds.. i can make em dead

I get at least one set of backstraps ..

I'll shoot a 475 Linebaugh with a flat point hard cast or a 500 Linebaugh or JRH not over 1400 FPS and shoot completely through both shoulders of an Asian Buffalo. BTDT more than once. It gets thier attention.

I have seen the 475 Linebaugh, 500 Linebaugh & JRH in wet pack out penetrate my 416 Rigby with 410 grain solid at 2380 FPS. The reason is that the round nose solid does not track straight and then tumbles. A flat point solid out of the Rigby will out penetrate the hard cast out of the big revolvers. Of course the flat point solids track straight.

From an article in the Double Rifle Magazine on the H&H 8 bore double rifle.

A 990 grain cast round ball at 1500 fps penetrated completely through a Cape Buffalo end to end.

What offers better penetration???

Like you said, "Everyone already has their minds made up"

My point is that hard cast bullets at lower velocities penetrate extremely well and there are thousands of real life examples to prove this.

The 454 Casull with a 360 grain cast bullet at 1450 fps cleanly dropped a white rhino and exhibited very deep penetration...it was found under the far side hide.

Like I said there are lots of stoppers that work well....416 Rigby, 458 Lott, .470 Nitro, 500 Jeffery, 505 Gibbs, .375 H&H, etc. We all know they work.

Solids have finally copied the nose shape of the LBT design and now offer better penetration.

Cast bullets are not so much bull as some think.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
The current crop of preachers from the Church of Glory of the Hardcast Bullet are snake oil salesmen !

Why simply because they are using clever illusion to claim that their bullets outperform standard or conventional bullets and they ascribe the performance based on low velocity. The myth of their claim lies in the fact that they they are not comparing apples to apples.

So I put a challenge to anyone who believes these claims to be true !

Take 45 cal hardcast Garret Hammerheads and fire them at varying velocity at a standardised visco-elastic target ( ballistics gelatine ) and see what happens, starting at conventional 45-70 velocities and building up to say 450 Rigby velocities.

What would the penetration to velocity graph look like ?

I will venture a wager !

Penetration will increase as velocity increases, but the gain in penetration will not be linear, it would based on the relationship between resistance to penetration and velocity be a deminishing return curve untill the velocity
( and resistance) gets so high, that it causes either ductile deformation or fragmentation of the cast bullet. At that point there would be a reversal of the curve.

So their claim to penetration based on low velocity only is bust, it does not exist not at least untill you get to the point where velocity is so high that it induces catastrophic drag forces on the lead.

Now we can repaeat the same with a "Low brass" or conventional Copper- nickel mono of simliar shape and weight.

We will find that the same penetration curve is going to happen but at the point where the lead bullet deformed or fragmented the copper or brass bullet is still going to go on penetrating untill a velocity is reached where the copper or brass is going to deform or fragment.

Alf is spot on here in case there is anyone who had a doubt about the dynamics of cast bullet performance. Some may remember this photo from the experiments Rich did a couple years ago. Perfect example of what happens when you overdrive a lead or lead jacketed bullet into a tough target.

We all know that all of Africa's dangerous game have been killed with all the calibers mentioned, and undoubtebly hundreds of others. I guess my question is this: Since we all have rifle/caliber, bullet/veocity combinations that we KNOW will do the job, why does this get re-hashed every so often? I gotta say that sometimes it must just be to fill the band width. LOL If something works for you...use it.

quote:

Perfect example of what happens when you overdrive a lead or lead jacketed bullet into a tough target.

That is exactly correct, if you want cast bullets to perform properly they should not be driven over 1400 FPS. From 1200 FPS to 1400 FPS they will perform.

The belt Mountain Punch bullet is they way to go in the Big Bire Handguns when LOTS of heavy bone is to be encountered such as an Elephants head. Too much bone will degrade the cast bullet. A Shoulder shot on an Asian Buffalo or an American Bison the casty bullet will work and work well. I have broken the support bone in either the onside or off side shoulder and the bullet still exited.

The Shark solid that I tested in 338 caliber out penetrated every other solid that I have ever tested.