Twig Rig test for deflection
I want to see what happens to a BBW#13 Solid does when it hits a twig between the target and the shooter. Some friends of mine and I chatted about this last week and came up with some ideas.

Goals:
-See if there is significant deflection caused by hitting a twig between the target and the muzzle.
-See if different bullets have different results (i.e. Flat nose Solids, Round nose solids, expanding/fragmenting)

Bullets to test:
1. CEB BBW#13 450 grain Solid
2. CEB 420 Grain NonCon
3. Barnes Round Nose Solid
4. Swift A-Frame

Expectations:
I expect to see some deflection by the twigs, but that the deflections will be minor. i.e. maybe a couple inches one way or another. I do not expect to see massive deflection (like off the paper). The one exception might be the NonCon and/or the swift A-frame. If the impact starts the expansion/shearing process, then it might be possible that this would cause some deflection. Basically, if the test proves that the deflection is half minute of buffalo, then I don’t see this as significant.

Twig Rig Plans and approach of the setup
The plan is to build a twig block about 8 inches by 8 inches that is set up in such a way as to not permit a .458 bullet to pass through it without striking one or more "twigs". My twigs will be 1/4 inch pine dowels. I will set up a target at 50 yards, and plan to shoot through the twig block at 35 yards (15 yards from the target). See diagram:




The build:
I was able to build this in about an hour. It pretty much came out looking just as I designed it to be. I made it so that you could replace the dowels as they got shot up by just sliding them out the top of the block. (bullet in photo is a Woodleigh hydro which was not used in testing…)



Test on 6/16:
I tested this in the field on Saturday 6/16. The rig set up pretty easily:



Zero time
Once Set up, I took a couple test shots to zero and make sure the CEB Solid and the Round Nose were both hitting the bull at 50 yards (Since each bullet type has a different charge, MV and BC, I wanted to see there was not a drastic difference in Point Of Impact (POI) between them. They both went into the Bull within a couple inches of each other on the vertical axis, and within an inch on the horizontal axis. Good enough for me.

The shots
I tested the four bullets over a total of 8 shots:
#1-Solid CEB 450 Grain BBW#13
---This one went in between two dowels and evenly punched a hole through both sides-like a hole punch. Bullet was about 1.25 inches from the shot I took to test zero.
#2-Solid CEB 450 Grain BBW#13
---Since #1 hit two dowels evenly, I wanted to try another one. This one hit a single dowel and cut a half moon through it. Impact was within an inch of #1, and within a half inch of the zero test POI.
#3: Barnes RN Banded Solid 500 Grain
---Cut a dowel cleanly in half. Bullet was about 1.25 inches from the shot I took without the twigs to test zero.
#4: Barnes RN Banded Solid 500 Grain
---Cut the dowel cleanly in half. Could not find the bottom part of the dowel. Landed within 3/8 of an inch from the zero test bullet.
#5: Barnes RN Banded Solid 500 Grain
---Cut Dowel cleanly in half. Landed within an inch of the zero shot.
#6: CEB NonCon 420 Grain (No Talon tip)
---Cut dowel cleanly in half. Landed less than an inch away from Shots 1 and 2
#7: CEB NonCon 420 Grain (No Talon tip)
---Cut Dowel cleanly in half. Bullet landed about an inch from #1,2 and 6
#8: Swift A-Frame 500 Grain
---Not the best impact on the dowels. It more grazed the dowel. Almost like it pushed the dowel out of the way as the dowel next to it had no marks, bu the impression on the damaged downwas too little to have allowed the .458 caliber bullet to pass through. Regardless the bullet stayed in the Bull and had a POI near the Barnes RN Banded solid.

Here are a couple photos of impacted dowels in the holder:



Here are photos of the damaged dowels:




Here are the targets:



My interpretations:
Well, This is not a lot of data to make a decision on, but it would seem that if one of these heavy bullets hits a ¼ inch twig that is roughly equal or less than the harness of pine, no significant deflection occurs at these ranges. Each Bullet was a different load, yet the total group size of all 8 shots was about 4 inches tall, and 1 to 1.5 inches wide.

I was surprised at how surgical the impacts were on the wood. I had expected to see wood splinters everywhere, but that was not the case. It was interesting to note that the flat point CEB’s seemed to hole punch the wood, whereas the others – especially the Round Nose bullets, seemed to push through the wood.

Hitting a twig on the way to the target did not start the shearing process on the NonCons as I did not see any petal impacts on the paper.

If Hitting a twig caused the A-Frame to start expansion, it sure did not provide any empirical evidence and this leads me to believe it did not do so.

All in all a fun test. If I do this again, I will have to try with a twig at 10 yards, and the target at 50 to see if having more distance between the target and the twig does anything unusual.

Thank you for posting this. The "Hole puncher" BBW13 is quite appropriate in name as it is the deepest penetrator.

Rob
Excellent work, well thought out, documented extremely well, good job. Seems that if one hits a smaller twig with these big bores it's really not a big terrible issue. Even hitting bigger things for them is not too bad either. I put some thru hell some months ago in a deflection test, hitting 3 one inch squares, then 10 ft to target. Lesson learned--DOn't shoot through brush! But, it almost never fails that we will encounter brush on some level when we go to the field, so it is very important to understand and realize the limitations of your chosen bullet.

Good Work! Will look forward to more I hope in the future.

Michael

Thanks guys, it was a fun test and pretty easy to set up.

Michael, I view you as a mentor in this realm so your words are high praise!

I mihgt try this again with 4x4 blocks and see what happens. I know these dudes will penetrate that based both on your testing Michael, and my experiance as as I shot them clean thorugh a 2 foot diameter living pine tree last year.

Rob, thank you for sharing your test results. Have you ever thought about running the same test under the same conditions with a 30-06 to see what the difference in deflection would be?

Jim

Yeah, I thought about using lighter bullets to see what happens. I am getting ready for a trip to Zim for Buff in October so my first priority was to try to see what happened with the big bore bullets I plan to use on that trip. I would think that lighter bullets would see more impact than the freight train big bore bullets.

I may be able to get this rig out again next month and if so I may change it up a little. try some lighter bullets, try with the sticks further from the target, try lighter bullets, etc.

Great report and really well written and documented. It would be interesting to see the dowels set up at 50yds and the target at 100. I would suspect you would see significantly more deflection if the dowels were farther away from the target. Here is my only experience with this

The wildebeest was at about 350 yards and the tree was at about 300 yards. caused 2 complete misses

I have PLENTY of stick stories I could tell, and may do so as time allows. But I had a stick story in April in South Africa with my 9.3 B&M and the 210 Raptor.

Had two hartebeast, at around 125 yds. I pitched up in the crotch of a tree and got locked in tight on the one to the left. Right in front of the muzzle, matter of a couple of inches, there was a dead stick that I removed enough to get the shot on the hartebeast to the left. I fired, the one on the left dropped to the shot. To my surprise, the one on the right stood up, moved toward the downed one trying to figure out what was going on! Well, I could not take that, so I moved the rifle on him as well--But, I forgot about my stick in front of the muzzle! When I fired, I saw the bullet kick up dust about 20 yards in front of me, and realized immediately what had happened. Hartebeast paid no attention to that, continued to stand there just a couple of seconds too long, the next one caught him right behind the shoulders, through both lungs, and he went 5 yds and piled up stone cold!

Deflection test work is important--regardless of caliber, bullet or game, there will always be sticks to contend with. A better understanding is not a bad thing at all!

Michael

All seem to agree that, when it comes to clean and humane kills on big game, bullet placement is MOST IMPORTANT - that is, you want the bullet to go thru the boiler room. A 300 gr. fired from a .375 H&H thru the boiler room in the "high" heart/lung area is more effective than a diaphragm/liver shot from a 500 gr. 458 Lott. When the field of view is clear and the shooters are equal in accuracy, the practical differences in the field of a 300 gr bullet from the .375 H&H and the 500 gr. from the 458 Lott are negligible. BUT, when shooting thru heavy cover, the 500 gr. bullet from the Lott is less likely to deflect significantly from the target area, when compared to the 300 gr. from the H&H - correct? I know PHs who blame more "wounded" buffalo resulting from this difference, when comparing in-the-field performance of the .375 H&H and 458 Lott. The bigger bullets deflect less, and it matters when hunting in deep cover. Do you buy this? AIU

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
All seem to agree that, when it comes to clean and humane kills on big game, bullet placement is MOST IMPORTANT - that is, you want the bullet to go thru the boiler room. A 300 gr. fired from a .375 H&H thru the boiler room in the "high" heart/lung area is more effective than a diaphragm/liver shot from a 500 gr. 458 Lott. When the field of view is clear and the shooters are equal in accuracy, the practical differences in the field of a 300 gr bullet from the .375 H&H and the 500 gr. from the 458 Lott are negligible. BUT, when shooting thru heavy cover, the 500 gr. bullet from the Lott is less likely to deflect significantly from the target area, when compared to the 300 gr. from the H&H - correct? I know PHs who blame more "wounded" buffalo resulting from this difference, when comparing in-the-field performance of the .375 H&H and 458 Lott. The bigger bullets deflect less, and it matters when hunting in deep cover. Do you buy this? AIU

Sounds like more testing is in order...

AIU

We agree completely that Bullet Placement first and foremost--followed directly by Terminal Performance.

As for brush deflection "Caliber" alone is not enough to determine what may and may not make it to a clean terminal effect.

First, despite anything, NO BULLET IS 100% IMMUNE to Brush. First order of business when your PH tells you, Man, you shooting a 500 so and so, it will go through that brush! "Just Say No"--Whatever you do, Just Say No. All bullets will deflect, end of story, totally depending on the exact circumstances as to HOW MUCH.

I also conducted a test which I had planned to expand at some point. I did this in 2/2012 here on the range and I started with .474 caliber from one of my 475 B&M rifles. I tested several bullets with my contraption, and in general there were some bullets that were very successful, and some that were very miserable. All were effected in one way or another, some just slightly off POI by less than an inch, some become totally unstable and missed by several inches and struck sideways. More dependent upon nose profile of a particular bullet than anything else. I will tell you now, all Flat Nose Profiles are not created equal, and all Round Nose Profiles are not created equal, so even that generalization cannot apply either, any better than caliber can apply.

If we were talking about shooting through brush--I would rather shoot through brush with a 375 and a BBW#13 Solid, or a North Fork Solid than a 458 Loaded with a 500 gr Woodleigh FMJ or Hornady DGS!

You can see this test in full here, with a pdf you can download to show you the results.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...rush-Deflection.html

Not to take away anything from Robs work, as it is only beginning, I trust in many ways as he continues with this we will learn much from it, and he will have a good time doing it too! LOL....

Michael

Michael, thanks for the response. I have many of the CEB #13 FN solids in both .375 (300 gr) and .416 (400 gr), and I've been working up loads. Got the 300 gr. CEB FN going 2900 fps out of my .375 AI (26" barrel) and the 400 gr. CEB FN going 2700 fps out of my 416 RUM (26" barrel). I'm using Vv550 with .375 AI and Re17 with the 416 RUM - both no PSI signs, cases fine, etc.

The .375 AI is more accurate, and I admit I shoot it better and it feeds better than the RUM. I'll be going to Tanzania this coming Jan 2013 on a two buffalo hunt with Luke Samaras. Not sure what to expect, but we may have to root them out of the bush.

Which gun would you take? Regards, AIU

AIU

First of all, both those guns are too big and too long! HEH........

Smoking hot loads. Which of the Two, Asking Me? Can't ask me a question like that, I have too many prejudices, and the answer given reflects them, of the two, the 416.

Personal advice, make the first shot with the 370 BBW#13 NonCon, then if you want to follow with the solids good and fine, I might slow that down a bit to handle better if it does. Having the NonCon at say, 2600 or so, the 400 at 2500 or so, same or close POI at 50, those buffalo are SMOKED. If you can handle the higher velocity, it is not going to hurt terminals for sure, not with those bullets. I found the Solids do better than the NonCons in the brush deflection tests as well. Rule of Thumb, Don't shoot Through the Brush Deliberately. Mistakes one thing, S Happens. Believe me, I am a Stick Killing SOB!

Nothing wrong with your 375, same story, shoot the NonCon up front, think it's 270, that 270 NonCon at 2900-3000 fps will rip buffalo in two, front end shots with either of these cartridges 375 or 416 with the NonCons, it's over pal, and if they don't drop there in the tracks, they won't be going very far if they go at all. Follow with the solids if you get a chance to.

You put that NonCon where it needs to go, either cartridge, you won't need to do any rooting around in the brush.

Which Gun? Neither, too damned long and big! LOL............... I am too to tote big guns anymore!

AIU,
Who will be your PH?

Blacktailer,

Not certain who will be my PH - have you hunted with Luke Samaras?

Do you have some recommendations for a PH?

Michael,

Your deflection test was interesting, and I'm convinced the FN design is best. I also love your Noncon HP CEB design as well - I plan on using them.

That said, I'd love to see your or Rob's deflection test comparing .375 (300 gr FN CEBs) with .416 (400 gr FN CEBs) with .458 (500 gr FN CEBs), etc.

I'm sure you get it, keep all the variables equal except caliber and bullet weight.

Regards, AIU

I passed on a bobcat shot about a year ago due to a spindly mesquite branch in the way. The pipe was stoked with 275gr NonCon about 2775fps in my trusty 375H&H. I'll not pass on a shot like that again after seeing these results!

Thanks for the fantastic presentation!

One question though.....How much different do you think the results might be if the NonCons had the latest and greatest plastic tips?

Andy

quote:

One question though.....How much different do you think the results might be if the NonCons had the latest and greatest plastic tips?

Scratch your head or any other body part you want to. I think it is a valid question.


#6: CEB NonCon 420 Grain (No Talon tip)
---Cut dowel cleanly in half. Landed less than an inch away from Shots 1 and 2
#7: CEB NonCon 420 Grain (No Talon tip)
---Cut Dowel cleanly in half. Bullet landed about an inch from #1,2 and 6

If a NonCon wearing a Talon Tip were to strike the dowel would it cause deflection different than what was observed?

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Scratch your head or any other body part you want to. I think it is a valid question.


#6: CEB NonCon 420 Grain (No Talon tip)
---Cut dowel cleanly in half. Landed less than an inch away from Shots 1 and 2
#7: CEB NonCon 420 Grain (No Talon tip)
---Cut Dowel cleanly in half. Bullet landed about an inch from #1,2 and 6

If a NonCon wearing a Talon Tip were to strike the dowel would it cause deflection different than what was observed?

Andy, scratching my head cause I don't know the answer to your question??? Don't know how it would do with the tips????

Michael

If I can get out one more time before I get ready for Africa I'll give that a whirl. I have a few talons I can test with.

AIU,
I have hunted with Leon who was great. At the same time we were sharing the camp with Peit who has a very good reputation and met Paddy. Luke runs a very good operation and you can't go wrong with him or any of his guys. Best of luck.

I would wonder what different results would be found if the pseudo branches were springy limbs rather than rigid dowels. I had a deflection in Botswana in '09 off a sapling that literally sent the 300 TSX up at a 30 dgree angle through the branches of a tree. The tree had thick branches and the path could be easily seen. I was impressed that the bullet so obviously was deflected way off the path.

Mark

Mark that's a very interesting question. I'm supposing to replicate your question it would be necessary to cust the sapling pieces just before testing to assure they're still pliable and the slots they'd be put in would need to allow wobble room.

"Would the saplings maintain their pliability if they are soaked in water until you're ready to shoot?". If so this would at least allow the sapling pieces to be cut before the shoot in sufficient numbers to fire multiple sessions.

Michael you're a forester, how would this be accomplished to assure the sapling pieces maintained their pliability?

I had a 286 gr Nosler partition deflected 90deg by thorn bushes on a zebra about 10 years ao. The bullet hit going fore and aft (diagonally ) and took out the carotid arteries and jugular veins instead of the heart and lungs. He died but he went over a mile bleeding out and was spook white when we found him standing rigidly from lactic acid buildup in his muscles.
A Texas heart shot finished him. He bounced when he dropped he was so rigid.
On the same trip a thorn bush and a limb about 3/4 " in diameter deflected a Nosler enough to miss a Steenbuck standing 5 feet behind it. The llimb was cut half in two

Interesting.

I have had heavy bullets deflect after striking grass and very light brush.

Best policy is to avoid shooting through any vegetation if you possibly can.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Interesting.

I have had heavy bullets deflect after striking grass and very light brush.

Best policy is to avoid shooting through any vegetation if you possibly can.

Agree.
No bullet is a "brush buster" and I guess that the pointier the bullets are, the worse it gets.

My worst experience with brush was a Barnes XFB-Cannelured .375/300-grainer (before the TSX).
2530 fps handload from a .375 H&H.
A 1" thick limb a few yards in front of Kudu that suddenly appeared about 150 yards away.

I was lining up on an impala at 100 yards when the glint of sun on a horn tip behind the impala appeared.
Shifted aim to kudu. On the sticks.
Good shot, I thought, as the Kudu bounded back into the mopane thicket.
Found chopped tree limb as we approached to begin trailing.
After 5 hrs of tracking, found Kudu still able to jump over 6-foot tall brush piles on 3 legs,
with a left front leg flopping about as he did so.
What a flail in all regards.
The perfect heart-lung-shoulder shot (I thought) was turned into a leg shot by the brush.
Chunks of leg bone were found on the trail.
I did not aim to do that!

The crew: In this case Farmer Kaas on the Left was the Tuli Block White Bushman Tracker Extraordinaire.



PH Basie Riekert, a big man, and A Good Guy:

Brush deflection can cause horrible, unintended consequences.



Never let it happen on purpose.

I also blame a certain gutshot warthog that required a quarter mile of tracking in 2010 on unseen weeds.
That was with a brass NonCon .395/310-grain hollowpoint hexploder from the .395 Tatanka at close to 2800 fps MV.

Given the 6-petal explosion of brass through the guts,
He probably would not have gone that far, if we had given him a few more minutes, not chased, to die.
Instead we nearly stepped on him lying on his side in the bushes,
so he got up and staggerred into a finishing shot.

I have never attempted to be a brush buster.
But expletive-deleted happens.

Here is the gutshot warthog due to "weed deflection":

Ron Shooting A Warthog

That's my story, and I am sticking to it.