If the Winchester rifle that you prefer so much,
could fit a .585 diam cartridge designed just as
your big .500, and you wanted to use the .585
cartridge, what would your empty rifle weigh
UNscoped? Thank you.
_________________________________

Regarding a 500 NE Double...

BELOW - Origionally by Michael458:

"I can't see any reason in the world to have a
rifle over 8-8.5 lbs, 20 inch barrels, stoked
with 475 gr NonCons at 2300 or so, backed with a
510 Solid at 2250 or so, of course this is in 20
inch barrels..... Just about the perfect double
rifle I reckon, if a fellow is subject to that
affliction........ Of course no one builds such a
thing, but bet a bottom dollar if I had one it
would meet those specs and not exceed by an oz
nor an inch............."
__________________________________

Didn't 500grains (ex member here) own a 585 Nyati
built with an M70 Winchester action?

DR

I just don't think you can get a .585 anything on a current M70... I don't believe its big enough in any way? Of course, that is not my area of expertise either...........

If I could get one on exactly what I am using for my 500s then the damned thing would weigh in at 8.5 lbs with an English AI stock...... But I think the barrel would have to be bigger of course, and thi s would add weight, I suppose one would be lucky to get away with 9.5 to 10 lbs on the skinny. I would shoot 650 #13 Solids at 2000-2100 fps and 600 gr NonCons the same of course depending on the whatever case you could use but that would be my goal with one.

However, I don't think you could get a viable working system on a current M70. I believe that the bigger Montana Action you could do a .585 on, I think RIP has one? With this action I think weight would be a bit more.

RIP... Never heard of anyone doing .585 on a Win M70... I suppose one might could do a single shot or something? ??????

DR... Most people are going to carry a hell of a lot more than shoot... And shooting in the field there is no recoil to worry with.....

M

Yep 500 grains (Dan M.) had a 585 Nyati on a Model70. It was done by a german gunsmith in Utah. If I remember right it was about 13lbs.

Yes, you are out of my area of expertise now, as I am just not sure what or how it could be done on a M70, proper. I can't see it, but who knows... I don't?........

I know one thing for a fact, at 13 lbs I would have absolutely ZERO interest in it........

Michael

quote:

If the Winchester rifle that you prefer so much,
could fit a .585 diam cartridge designed just as
your big .500, and you wanted to use the .585
cartridge, what would your empty rifle weigh
UNscoped? Thank you.

Really a proper answer would most likely be;

What I would want, and what I COULD get are probably way too far apart for me to show interest!

M

Michael,

The reference to the 585 Nyati M70 Winchester (it can be done, apparently) was just
a tit for a tat as all D R Hunter is doing here is
same as he was on the Double Rifle thread with essentially the same post (i gotta go rubberneck there now).
I "believe" someone is just miffed that anyone would commit the sacrilege of criticizing "Ye Olde Classic Double Rifle Conformation" as you have done.
Shame on you!

BTW, the 585 Nyati is a bad idea in any rifle of any weight or length, and creator Ross Seyfried will probably tell you the same thing.

Frankly, I am relieved that you are not cogitating on coming up with a 585 B&M.
No 585 RIP in my plans either.

Guys Hubel is building bolt rifles using various length case's of his 585 HE cartridge to fit the specific action being used.

In fact he designed an earlier 585 SHE designed, basically a slightly longer 'jumbo'd' 50 B&M, for the M98 Mauser and M77 Ruger actions.

Anyhow - were some form of a '585' cartridge to be built on a M70 Winchester there is no reason is should weight more than 1# to 1 1/2# more than an equally bare 500 MDM rifle. Just make the case length sufficiently long to use Talon Tipped Raptors from the magazine.

Just sayin...

Ed tips his hat to B&M on his .585 Short Hubel Express,
at www.ammoguide.com :



"In developing my long 585HE, I received queries about a short version for smaller, shorter, bolt actions, with just the equivalent power of 577NE. So I borrowed the idea behind the B&M and RAM cases that went up to .50 cal. and made a shorter .585 case, 2.700" long. Like the above=mentioned rounds, this cases headspaces in bolt actions on the extractor and the case mouth - dependable with cases that are short relative to diameter.

Cases are made from Gibbs brass. The reamer I set up makes a tight chamber exactly 2.700" long resulting in perfect headspace, cartridge supported. Casehead is still like the Gibbs. Case volume total is 167 gr of dense ball powder. Regular loads push 650gr bullets at 2200 and 750gr at 2050, just like .577NE. The first gun chambered was a Ruger 77, and soon going into a Savage, REM, and some Mausers."
Ed Hubel

I played around with making a 2.25" 550 Magnum/Express dummy rounds. A 2.25" Wby case stuffed with 550 pills. Use cheap shotgun slugs and get potent results. A plus is having the option of belt headspace. Think 500 NE velocities.

I developed a .585" cartridge using a ,577 NE case shortened to 2.5", with a rudimentary shoulder and rebated rim. The original test engine was a P14 Enfield, but I eventually had one built on a post-64 (push feed) action with a Weatherby single stack magazine.

My gunsmith was a little dubious about using such a large diameter cartridge on an action with such a small diameter barrel shank, but he cut the threads to the maximum dimensions to give it a very tight fit. With 135 grains of 4895 I duplicated .577 NE loads with a 750 grain bullet at 2050 fps.

It's in a McMillan stock with some added weight in the butt, bringing the total weight up to about 12 pounds. Not at all unpleasant to shoot.

RIP.... Jim.....Others.....

RIP.. Correct, I do not conform to Conventional....

585 just not in the B&M future, I concur....

Yes, Ed probably has the right idea with his short 585, and some years ago was kind enough to send a couple of dummy rounds for me to look at actually in a Win M70, whatever the reason, and I spoke with Brian about it as well, it was just not going to work, the way I would want it. Of course many things can be done, but at what effort? I would not be satisfied with anything that would not be 100 % reliable, have at least two rounds down in the magazine, retain, feed, function as a real rifle.... We just did not see that happening on a M70, without EXTREME efforts and changes, modifications, and even then no 100% guarantee of anything, so just not worth the effort............. And my interests really don't flip me out with 585.... I don't have "My Dick is Bigger Than Your Dick" syndrome....... No Penile Envy here.. LOL LOL...


With all that said and done, I have many other things to consider and work on, so I will humbly bow out of the thread.....

Later and moving onward........

Michael

Gents,

I am absolutely NOT trying to stir up a mess!!!
It's a sincere inquiry and I appreciate the feed-
back that's been presented.

I do "emotionally" seem to be drawn to 577 NE
rifles. BUT, I LOVE that bullet technology is
advancing and resulting in lighter bullets pro-
viding plenty of penetration, both as solids and
as expanding bullets. I'm just seeing if the 13
pound 577 NE, firing a 750 grain solid, at 2050
FPS, of 20th century, can be improved upon in
this, the 21st century, by being reduced in
weight, using shorter bbl length, firing a lighter
bullet, doing so at higher velocity, but causing
NO increase in recoil, yet resulting in NO decrease
in penetration. In a Farquharson pressure can be
as much as in bolt action magazine rifles.