I believe Saeed's .375/404 rifles are such configured,
and Mr. Echols creates DG rifles that way as well.
Who here hunts with the same?

I think the concept is just fine, BUT,
there should be a pre-zeroed backup scope in QD rings ready to go, for the rare catastrophe of busted scope.

Saeed uses fixed mounts, and something can be said for them being more foolproof than QD rings and bases, just not as quick and easy to switch scopes in the field.

Here is another one, newborn .500/.338 Lapua Magnum on an M70 Action.
It needs a McMillan or AI stock with drop box magazine to really make it shine, work in progress:



That is member I Bin Therbefor and gunsmith Rusty McGee with the new kitten. It is a 3-shooter as is.

In the really tight charge situations, just point and shoot like a shotgun.
Saeed is from that Dubai family of Olympic Champion shotgunners.

This rifle weighs 9 pounds even, as scoped, as shown, 24" barrel with 0.785" muzzle diameter.
It balances pefectly on the horn of the bison, on the front action screw.



Spray-painted Leupold 2.5x-8x in Leupold QRW rings, with bases 8x40-ed and JB Weld epoxied to receiver,
and RTV automotive silicone adhesive sealing scope into the rings.

I have a couple of DG guns with Fixed scopes.
All Leupy's and all low power.

I tend not to change my scopes in the field unless really necessary - like an extra log shot to stop a wounded one getting away.

RiP,
how well does the M70 bolt accept the large Rigby rim?...photo of bolt face/extractor if you have please....

whats your view of the potential for wildcatting the 338 Norma Magnum,[107 gn water cap. Vs 114gn 338 Lapua]
... any blowing out of the case has already been done at the factory, all thats required is to neck to desired cal.

The M70 Winchester has a 0.7" (0.695") bolt diameter just like a Standard or Magnum Mauser, CZ 550 Medium or Magnum, Dakota 76, Ruger RSM, Hawkeye, or MkII, etc.
You have to use a Granite Mountain with 0.750" bolt diameter to get a bigger bolt face, etc.

Bolt diameter ia a non-issue with the Rigby/Lapua case head.
Actual as-manufactured brass rim diameter is 0.585" to 0.586" for either .338 LM or .416 Rigby, just measured the Norma made stuff for giggles.









I have no knowledge of the Norma .338.

Thanks for the M70 bolt photos,
.338Norma is a more or less an shortened & blown out 338 Lapua [2.5" Vs 2.7" case length]

No one else will say it but a rifle with a fixed scope is not a dangerous game rifle, it is a rifle requiring backup from the PH.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
No one else will say it but a rifle with a fixed scope is not a dangerous game rifle, it is a rifle requiring backup from the PH.

you are right, NO ONE else will say it, cuz it aint true.. even remotely.

fixed scopes are lighter and tougher - you know, i aint never seen a variable power peep or fixed ...

further, combat scopes are fixed power on the M4 -

I thought we were talking fixed mounts... or are we talking fixed power?
Personally I prefer a low power variable in QD mounts with irons as back-up.

Looks to me like we have two ideas mixed here. I took the OP to be talking about fixed as in NON QD scope mounts, not fixed power scopes.

SSR

I'm not in favor of a fixed mount or scope on a DG rifle. Fixed mounts basically take away the option of using your irons, and the lowest power fixed scope that I have seen is 4 power and IMHO that is too strong for DG. I usually set mine for about 1.5 power. It is a 1.1X4 and I turn it up just enough to lose the barrel and front sight.

Terry,
Scopes range from 1x to way past 40x .. and 2.5 fixed is common .. 2, 2.5, 3, 4x ..

if the OP meant fixed vs qd scope rings -- shesh, carry a screw driver ..

This is hilarious:



Also hilarious is the idea that fixed power scopes might be limited to 4X on the bottom end.

Also hilarious is that Saeed's .375/404 is not a DGR.

He has never even had to adjust the 2.5x-8x Leupold VX-III scope in the last decade of annual month-long trips to Africa.

I want to punish one of those scopes and see how it holds up also.
Of course I will have a fixed-power 2.5X Leupold as back up.
Afterall, the .500 Tornado at 8 pounds dry does punish a scope a bit more than a .375/404J UAE.

QD rings and 2 scopes with no iron sights: That IS a DGR.

And you would know? I think ol' Roy carries a 460 Wby, without a scope.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
And you would know? I think ol' Roy carries a 460 Wby, without a scope.

you mean roy weatherby?
son, he doesn't carry a rifle anymore.
ahh, the dumba$$ is strong with this one

Not lately, Will, if you mean Roy Vincent.

The real inspiration for the thread:

D'Arcy Echols used to refuse to set a rifle up with both iron sights and a scope.
One or the other or both end up compromised when trying to make the stock fit the shooter,
and allow him to use both scope and iron sights.

For the Echols custom rifle, you used to get your choice for perfection in stock fit to the shooter:
A) Scope and no iron sights.
B) Iron sights and no scope mounting provision.

Echols may have loosen up on this lately.

The highly evolved Rifleman can apreciate the Echols idea.
Saeed reached such enlightenment long ago.

And, even though I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I find Will's supposed expertise laughable.

I have a hard time considering a rifle with with a scope, fixed power or variable, in fixed or QD mounts, as a dangerous game rifle. It would be interesting to do a count -- how many PH's carry rifles with scopes, fixed or variable, in fixed or QD mounts? My guess is that you would struggle to break 10%, if that high.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Not lately, Will, if you mean Roy Vincent.

The real inspiration for the thread:

D'Arcy Echols used to refuse to set a rifle up with both iron sights and a scope.
One or the other or both end up compromised when trying to make the stock fit the shooter,
and allow him to use both scope and iron sights.

For the Echols custom rifle, you used to get your choice for perfection in stock fit to the shooter:
A) Scope and no iron sights.
B) Iron sights and no scope mounting provision.

Echols may have loosen up on this lately.

The highly evolved Rifleman can apreciate the Echols idea.
Saeed reached such enlightenment long ago.

And, even though I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I find Will's supposed expertise laughable.

"Usually, dangerous-game rifles are stocked for either open sight or scope use. To minimize the considerable recoil of the cartridges I deem suitable for dangerous-game work, the shooter’s head needs to be firmly anchored on the top of the stock's comb. If such a rifle is stocked for open-sight use, and then you fit a scope, the shooter usually has to lift his head off the comb a bit to see through the scope clearly because a scope cannot be mounted as low as open sights. Felt recoil, when the head is lifted even a little bit, is a lot more than when it is snuggled down firmly onto the comb. Conversely, when a rifle is stocked for scope use, and you try to use it with open sights, you often find that you cannot get your head down enough to see the open sights easily. So, most dangerous-game rifles are stocked for open-sight use, and they are then terrible to shoot when a scope is mounted.
With the Doctari, we figured a way to sort this problem out. The aperture ghost ring is on a Talley mount and high enough so that when a scope is fitted the shooter’s head does not need to be lifted at all to see through the scope."

'We were able to switch quickly between ghost ring aperture and a low-powered variable scope to demonstrate how I believe we have got the stock shape and sight configuration on these rifles exactly right. Head position on the stock when either sighting system is used is the same, and there are darn few rifles out there which can boast this fact."

The above from Doctari on the new Doctari rifle. I've got some pictures of the mount somewhere in some file that I can't find right now.

If this works he's solved the the open sight/scope problem.

Ah, but the peep sight is not an "open sight."
The open sight is the express rear.
My choice heretofore has been to to use a banded front sight and no rear "open sight," have a detachable peep like the Talley or NECG, or Williams or Lyman with removable adjustable cross member, and use the scope in QD mounts for everything.
The peep in my pocket comes into play only if I trash the scope.
Never yet. Knock wood.

Barrel band front swivel bases for slings are silly also, just like the the express rear open sight.
A stock forend tip location for the sling base is best, for hard recoiling rifle.

Echols open peep sights:

Please! A peep is not an open sight.
Both open sights (whether buckhorn, shallow V, or flat top square notch) and peep sights/receiver sights may be called "iron sights" if you want to group them all together.

The rifle pictured has a zero-drop or negative-drop comb, it is designed for scope use!
Or maybe for the microcephalic, skinny-faced shooter using iron sights?

[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Barrel band front swivel bases for slings are silly also, just like the the express rear open sight.
A stock forend tip location for the sling base is best, for hard recoiling rifle.

AH HA finally some one else that sees that is the best place for a sling swivel.



I am no longer alone in the widerness

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
No one else will say it but a rifle with a fixed scope is not a dangerous game rifle, it is a rifle requiring backup from the PH.

Just curious, does Saeed on his numerous hunting jaunts,have someone backing him up with an open sighted rig?

Sometimes.
Sometimes they just carry the shooting sticks, Saeed is so infallible with that variable scope in fixed mounts and no barrel hardware.
His clean barrel and perfect stock fit for scope use may contribute to his accurracy.
He can point and shoot that .375/404 instinctively like a shotgun at close range too,
and he is quicker and better coordinated than most mere mortals.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

D'Arcy Echols used to refuse to set a rifle up with both iron sights and a scope.
One or the other or both end up compromised when trying to make the stock fit the shooter,
and allow him to use both scope and iron sights.

For the Echols custom rifle, you used to get your choice for perfection in stock fit to the shooter:
A) Scope and no iron sights.
B) Iron sights and no scope mounting provision.

I am under the impression that D'arcy only offers a peep sight(or scope) on the legend rifle. IOW no open sights.

Thanks, JBrown. Really.
It is through such exchanges that eventually we may get all our eyes crossed and our tees dotted.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

D'Arcy Echols used to refuse to set a rifle up with both iron sights and a scope.
One or the other or both end up compromised when trying to make the stock fit the shooter,
and allow him to use both scope and iron sights.

For the Echols custom rifle, you used to get your choice for perfection in stock fit to the shooter:
A) Scope and no iron sights.
B) Iron sights and no scope mounting provision.

I am under the impression that D'arcy only offers a peep sight(or scope) on the legend rifle. IOW no open sights.

from Echols website:

Legend Heavy Sporter

This version is available in the following calibers: 416 Remington Magnum, 404 Jeffery and 458 Lott.

1. A front sling swivel base is mounted on the barrel of the 458 Lott.
2. The Legend Heavy Sporter is equipped with either our scope mounts or our peep sights. At this time I offer no provision for detachable scope mounts.

Peep Sights: Even though the stock was primarily designed for scope use, I can provide this iron sight alternative that has been specifically designed for this model.
This system incorporates a NECG fiber optic bead-and-ramp front sight coupled with a receiver-mounted peep sight of my own design.
This combination has an advantage over the traditional barrel mounted express sights by allowing the shooters eyes to acquire the target very rapidly, visually focus on only the front bead and the target and has a much longer sight radius. This sight combination works extremely well in low light conditions. These sights are typically zeroed at 50 yards and are easily adjusted for both windage and elevation.
458 Lott: Please be aware that we have found the 458 Lott to be notorious for destroying variable power riflescopes regardless of size, weight or manufacturer. Consequently I prefer to build the 458 Lott Heavy Sporter Model with our peep sights or a fixed power scope when ever possible.

Total labor and material cost $15,500.00

Options Available;

Checkered Bolt Stop Release $250.00
Custom Bolt Knobs,remove and replace the factory knurled bolt knob with a smooth bolt knob $425.00
Remove and replace the factory knurled bolt knob with a two-paneled checkered bolt knob $700.00
Fluted C/M Barrels - $125 additional cost



Classic Iron Sighted Heavy Sporter

Construction details for the Iron Sighted Heavy Sporter are also similar to the Scope Sighted Heavy Sporter, with two important exceptions: the iron sights require that the comb height be lower, and a slightly modified barrel contour is chosen to alter the overall balance point of the rifle. The sight system most often installed is our peep sight. A traditional front and single blade shallow “V” rear sight are available as well. I do not install any additional auxiliary folding leaf rear blades. The Iron Sighted Heavy Sporter rifles are zeroed for 50 yards, and are offered in the following calibers 375 Holland & Holland Magnum, 375 Weatherby Magnum, 416 Remington Magnum, 416 Rigby, 458 Winchester Magnum, 458 Lott, 450 Rigby Magnum.

Total labor and material cost $ 34,000.00

Options available;

Quarter Rib - The ribs are made as a separately machined unit and are precision fit to the barrel with one standing rear sight blade and corresponding front ramp and bead - $1,800.00



I believe these to be Echols creations:





.416 Echols Classic; Burgess QDs & 1/4 Rib open sights.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I have a hard time considering a rifle with with a scope, fixed power or variable, in fixed or QD mounts, as a dangerous game rifle. It would be interesting to do a count -- how many PH's carry rifles with scopes, fixed or variable, in fixed or QD mounts? My guess is that you would struggle to break 10%, if that high.

Billy Lemon was the only PH I hunted with that had a scope, on a 460 Wby by the way. Fixed or QT rings, I do not know. He was the only one that I ever knew that used a scope.

I know some of these forums just become circle-jerks and the guy that "yells loudest and longest" somehow becomes the authority, no matter how incorrect, how non-authoritative, how inexperienced, and how unknowing the guy may be.

Then there are the guys with inferiority complexes that are chastising some poster every time the poster "opens his mouth." But that's another story.

This post is a prime example where the unknowing are led down a path paved by the ignorant because of irrelevant anecdotes, quotes from some other ignorant persons, and advertising material from gunsmiths whose products stem from the motivation of turning a buck and not from DG experience.

It is my calling and civic duty to try to break the circle-jerking going on here!

Dangerous game rifles with fixed scope mounts?

Please.

It is in the least misleading and disingenuous, if not flat out criminal. And dangerous.

I am sure I will be corrected if wrong but--

I have the idea that there is a diffrence between what a hunter uses as a rifle and what a PH uses in His backup role. A scope for the first shot by the hunter makes sense and the PH should not be shooting till something goes wrong, at which point its up close and personal, or hit them where they are biggest to break them down. The PH isnt called upon to do presice longer range shooting.

Where am I wrong in this?

SSR

Another fallacy. That the hunter should use whatever he wants and that the PH should be the one that is appropriately equipped to finish the task if necessary. I do not understand why someone would put himself in the position of hunting dangerous game where he is dependent on the PH to backup. To me, both the hunter and the PH need to be appropriately armed and the hunter needs to be just as capable of backing up the PH as vice versa. What if the PH's gun is screwed up? The PH's gun misfires? The PH falls and hits his head on a rock and is out of the game? I would not want to be standing there trying to find an image in a scope while the PH is out of commission and thinking all the while, "He is supposed to be backing me up!"

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I do not understand why someone would put himself in the position of hunting dangerous game where he is dependent on the PH to backup. To me, both the hunter and the PH need to be appropriately armed and the hunter needs to be just as capable of backing up the PH...."

Why do PHs accept to guide clients onto DG, who are smaller armed and less capable than themselves?

$

Mike,

I reckon that I am well armed with a appropriate scope, and can take any shot needed. I am not backing up the PH-he is only involved if we have a rolling wreck anyway. Then all hands are on deck and firing. but the PH is not suppose to ever be the primary-so he is always backup.

I dont think we are far apart, more sematic. But a PH's rifle has a differnt purpose than a hunters.

SSR

Trax,

Mike is correct! Safari operators and PH's are in business to make money. They are selling a product and money is money regardles of the client's physical condition or hunting and shooting expertise.

To answer the question I think a rifle that is going to be used for dangereous game and is scoped needs to have detachable mounts.

Mark

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I have zero experience in hunting dangerous game. I intend to change that once I am flush financially.

After a lot of research and discussion, I have decided to build a 416 Ruger with a Lyman 48M aperture sight and Wisner banded front sight as the sole sighting mechanism. Trying to get a comb height correct for a proper fast scope alignment and equally fast aperture or open sight alignment is beyond my capability.

On the other hand, Saeed's fixed mount scope 375/404, and Phil Shoemaker's fixed mount scope 458 Win. Mag. seem to work for them.

My bear rifle will have a fixed ring 1.5-6x B&L Elite 4200 scope sight, but the stock will fit me perfectly for that scope set up. I'll lug a spare scope in my back pack.

After some experience, I may change my set up for each rifle.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

And DG rifle that is not dedicated elephant stuff definitely needs to have a scope or be scope capable. Accurate shot placement with a scope eliminates 99% of the D in DG.

As I recall when George Parkin hunted with my buddy in 2004 he had a 416 Remington Model 700 Rem with a scope on it for his rifle. They were hunting buffalo.

I do not know if it had QD mounts.
BigB

It seems to be a circular argument. A scope is good for precise shooting but needs to be que-dee because in a charge situation it becomes a liability. But in a charge there's absolutely no time to remove a scope so why bother with quick release mounts? Seems to me there's only two schools here...scope (regardless of mount system) or no scope at all.

Signed,

Confused

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
It seems to be a circular argument. A scope is good for precise shooting but needs to be que-dee because in a charge situation it becomes a liability. But in a charge there's absolutely no time to remove a scope so why bother with quick release mounts? Seems to me there's only two schools here...scope (regardless of mount system) or no scope at all.

Signed,

Confused

As I was reading thread, I was thinking the exact same thing and was wording something up in my head along what you have written.

It would not have made any difference having QD mounts in any of the 3 Serious charges I have faced - 2 Water Buffalo and 1 Scrub Bull.

1. Chased after a female cow Buffalo with 2 calves through some scrub. She was 50 yards in front. Next minute she had turned around and was coming straight for me.

2. Scrub Bull running parallel (to me) after being shot with me running. Suddenly turns and comes at me from 22 yards.

It wouldn't have mattered about QD mounts,
in both situations it was a snap shot to stop or turn them.

I can think of the odd follow up / track of a wounded Buff that ended up in a thicket / thick scrub that could have been done with QD mounts but I was using an open sighted 318WR anyway.

Out of interest, lets look at "Karamojo" Bells DGR setup...



and none of this nonsense that he only selectively shot inriled elephants by sneaking up with a behind the ear shot....

"Bell had earned the respect and the friendship, and finally total acceptance of the warlike Karamojang people. This was due partly to his fearlessness when dealing with a herd of bull elephants bearing down on him, relying on braining the one directly in front of him, but mostly from occasions when his safari was confronted by a group of belligerent warriors—tall, jet black, naked, and armed to the teeth carrying a shield, two 10-foot long razor-sharp spears, a circular knife on each wrist and wicked hooks attached to rings on the fingers—Bell would face them down, without showing the slightest emotion or fear. The situation never deteriorated to the point that Bell was ever forced to use his rifle.
Bell was also supremely fit with tremendous stamina and endurance, qualities necessary for survival, and for which the Karamojang, as primitive people, greatly admired. But mainly they stood in awe and possibly dread of his small but deadly “fire stick,” which fired, without smoke, tiny shining bullets causing instant death to the largest bull elephant, and often laid low a group of bulls in a matter of seconds. These natives had never seen anything like this before. When the Swahilis tried to hunt elephants, they poured copious amounts of powder down the gullets of their muzzleloaders, then rammed down whatever projectiles were available, to produce huge clouds of smoke—but rarely dead elephants." - Harry Selby, American Rifleman 9/16/2010.