CEB markets a slick BT design HP called the "MTH_V11 .416 Cal 350 gr - 50 ct MTH- Match/TAC/Hunting", which Dan S. says is a good hunting bullet. It has a BC=0.55 and thus exceptional down-range velocity/energy retention.

Has anyone tried this as a hunting bullet?

It's accurate in my 416 RUM and I can get it moving at 2850 fps without excessive pressure signs.

Seems like it would make for an exceptional long-range hunting bullet, but also good at close range for DG.

It's not the MTH_V11 - but, the CEB website has a 700yd shot with the MTH_V15 from a .40 Hart. It's about half way down the page, 'Buck taken with the MTH V15 Bullet'...here's the link: http://site.cuttingedgebullets.com/all_videos

I've been watching the development of the CEB bullets for sometime and there are good things coming out of CEB. The copper raptors sound especially promising for matching high-BC with straight line penetration of a blunt-core

However, with the older MTH-HV bullet design I have a question on dangerous game: do those VLD hollow points still split into three 'banana peels'? And if so, what kind of straightline penetration is achieved on buffalo? I would like to see some documentation of terminals with such bullets before I start shooting buffalo. I am very adverse to surprises with bullet performance when hunting buffalo and have appreciated Michael458's relentless pursuit of data, with straightline pentration always a non-negotiable. Shooting a whitetail with a 416 does not qualify as evidence, though I'm happy for the successful hunter.

What I would like to know is if the MTH bullet will pass through a buffalo heart if first encountering a large forearm knuckle or if coming in from a rear raking shot. I would hate to follow up on a pissed-off buffalo that had three wound channels that went around a heart and most of a ribcage. Earlier in the 20th century there were many spectacular kills as hunters discovered higher velocities with smokeless powder. But then there were tragic events where bullets failed because of distintegration. Now that we have solved the problem of disintegration through using mono-metals (and partitions and welded cores before that), we need to maintain a minimum straighline penetration. That is what the new Copper Raptor will guarantee. Any day now, maybe already.

PS: I saw the video that Jim referenced above. I felt bad about the shot being taken. It looked like too much of the heart and front-end vitals were hidden for a responsible shot at 700 yards. The hunter apparently hit the spine, mid-back, which was fortunate. If the bullet had hit a few inches lower it may have been a gut-shot tracking job. Although I've seen a little center-stomach, gutshot duiker "Dead Right There" with a 270, I would not even trust a 416 on a gutshot impala/cob/puku (whitetail size). I once had a warthog start to move and rotate at the release of the trigger. Standing at 250 yards downrange the animal was hit, but 400 yards after that we found a pile of guts and only another 150-200 yards later did we find the dying warthog. That was a 338WM, can't remember the bullet, and is a constant reminder that unpredictable things happen in the hunting field.

Seems like the CEB LD/HPBT-STD would perform like the Barnes TSX - but, apparently we don't have any terminal ballistic tests to judge from.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Seems like the CEB LD/HPBT-STD would perform like the Barnes TSX - but, apparently we don't have any terminal ballistic tests to judge from.

Actually, that is my question. TSX formed a mushroom with petals. There was a version of CEB's that split the length of the bullet into three 'banana peels', if I interpreted pictures correctly a few years ago.

Ok guys – guess it’s been so long ago that everyone (except me) has forgotten. For those that have forgotten.

Custom CEB MTH bullets…
Custom in the sense that Dan modified his MTH design to meet my desires as follows –
1) the multi-banding from the discontinued CEB FBH bullet was added to the shank – special request by me to reduce the amount of material to be displaced by the rifling.
2) bullet diameter of .500 inch.
3) bullet weight of 430grs.

And here are the bullet box test results from Michael…
Page 192, TBP Thread - http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/192

quote:

posted 08 October 2011 22:31
Originally posted by michael458:
Ya'll gonna drive me totally !!!!!!!!!!

I can hardly keep up as it is!

OK, Capo and RIP, pay attention! I received the few over run bullets in your special run of CEB copper pointy things from Dan yesterday. I don't recall how many, 15-20 of them I think, so I gave them a good workout this morning whilst doing some other things, and since you have these in hand I thought you might like some info on them

Good news--They are in my opinion a huge success! You did good!

As you remember from a couple of years ago I was using a 470 Copper HP from Lehigh on the buffalo. Running at 2450 fps or so I was getting shear at less than 50-60 yards, then on out there getting a six bladed bullet from hell anyway. No real downside as I saw it, but the shear produced more reaction and more trauma from the buffalo. So I decided the shearing effect was very good and here we are today with shearing brass bullets!

Now you two want to go back to copper, JHC, can't you just leave well enough alone? HEH HEH....

But, these pointy things you guys had done are doing very well, even way down in velocity. Take a look!

I loaded what I thought would be top end loads to see what was going to happen in both 50 B&M and the 500 MDM.





Of course they are too long for the magazine in the 50 B&M.





Starting out at the higher end velocity in the 50 B&M and working my way down. Even at 2350 fps pressures were only 52672 PSI, so I could easy raise the velocity in the 50 B&M.













Of course you know this, but almost all copper blades stay with the center wound channel, and that is ok and not a bad thing, there is a massive wound channel with these at velocity, and the copper blades assist with that. You don't see any, I got tired of looking for them, as I did brass Carnivores before these and spent half the morning sifting through paper pulp looking for blades! With these I was more interested in just making sure they are opening, and working, and that they are doing very very well! You guys have a good bullet!

Michael

There is zero reason to perceive that the standard CEB MTH bullets wouldn’t perform similarly to the above – because this MTH is a standard MTH bullet only modified as noted above.

Capoward, THANKS A TON for that report - it's great and exactly what I was hoping for! Thanks also to Michael for his first-rate testing.

Thus, as Dan S. indicates, the CEB LD/HPBTR TD .416 gr should make a very good long-range hunting bullet for plains game, but - if surprised - it would likely work for self-protection against buffalo. That central core would penetrate deeply and produce a scary wound channel.

I like this bullet slightly better than the TSX, which has a lower BC. Yet, not sure the difference in BC would translate into significance in Africa, but maybe it would if shooting long, long range at elk in the USA.

I got a bunch of these bullets - Dan S. had me convinced.

Thanks again - great stuff!! AIU

Jim,

Those are very pretty bullets. Thanks for the pictures and review.

I'm very glad to hear that they are not 'banana peels'. As Michael said--they are a devasting machine. I look forward to the public release of the "Lazers" and "Copper Raptors".

Oh yes… I should have also mentioned the CEB MTH bullets are very accurate as well…

Again thanks to RIP…
Page 7, http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/5931027531/p/7

quote:

posted 28 May 2012 06:15
Originally posted by RIP:
Extract…
My Winchester M70 in 49-10 must keep with the 24" barrel length ...
It loves those 430-grain CEB MTH bullets so well as it is.
I would not dare mess with it!

Shot off the hood of a car in a cow pasture:

quote:

posted 29 May 2012 07:43
Originally posted by RIP:
Extract…
.500-caliber/430-grain MTH from CEB:
BC = .365:
MV = 2662 fps, 5-yard velocity = 2651 fps
Sight Height 1.50"
Trajectory:
+2.95" high at 100 yards
+1.52" high at 200 yards
-7.03" low at 300 yards
Very close to dead-on at 225 yards.
Retained velocity at 300 yards: 2009 fps
KE at 300 yards: 3852 ft-lbs.

And finally…

quote:

posted 31 May 2012 04:27
Originally posted by RIP:
Extract…
Staycation day again today.
Had the range to myself,
and rifle No.1, M70 Winchester with 2.5X-8X Leupold in QRW rings and bases, no muzzle brake ... scope bases epoxied to action with JB Weld and 8x40 screws, of course.

430-grain/.500-caliber MTH design by CEB, of your instigation, is only 5" low at 300 yards (or less, no more drop than that), when sighted 3" high at 100 yards, and started off at about 2662 fps MV.



100.0 grains of H322 powder.
Temperature 75 degrees F.
Altitude somewhere between 300 and 400 feet.
Relative humidity: Kentucky humid
Wind: Kentucky Windage brisk today, waited between shots for lulls.

That agrees very well with BC of .365 as calculated, maybe better?
Sight height 1.50", 75F, 300ft. alt., 29.53"Hg, 78% RH: +3" at 100 yards, -4.75" at 300 yards ... BC = .???

Note that two of the three bullets went into one hole at 300 yards.
I got excited at that and flinched or held too hard on the third shot, and it went low and to the right. I am right handed and strong of grip.
Still, only about 0.5 MOA for 3 shots at 300 yards, my fault.
Maybe with a machine rest and indoor range, all these CEB bullets would go into one hole?

Rifle No.1, M70 will be zeroed with the 430-grain MTH.
Rifle No.2, BRNO, will be zeroed with the 360-grain/W350 Raptor.
All the heavier CEB bullets (450 to 500 grains) may fall where they may at 0 to 50 yards.

Now I need to shoot both rifles with all bullet types to see where they land in relation to the primary zero, and fine tune the useful zero.

Ok…that’s about the summation of the 430gr .500 caliber CEB MTH – at least to date…

Except I should state -
I asked Dan, during our numerous discussions regarding the end design of this bullet, for an accurate bullet that would give awesome performance on game out to 325yds (my personal hunting maximum comfort range) and to have a sufficiently decent BC to allow target shooting from 300yds to 600yds maximum.
Michael and RIP have demonstrated that Dan has delivered on all counts. Plus, if I've computed things somewhat correctly, the 1660fps should be reached at approximately 450yds from a 24" barrel and approximately 400yds from a 19" barrel; both of which further demonstrate just how well Dan's modified MTH - 1.349" long .500 diameter 430gr weight - bullets perform...

Capo Jim--

you're ready for buffalo, eland, and California mule deer.

This CEB design deserves more recognition than it's getting. AIU

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Capo Jim--

you're ready for buffalo, eland, and California mule deer.

All true - plus any other critter in the scope crosshairs!

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
This CEB design deserves more recognition than it's getting. AIU

This is absolutely true! Fortunately they're becoming better known yet still small enough that they'll custom make the bullets of your dream...

Jim, the MTH_V11 .416 Cal 350 gr - 50 ct MTH- Match/TAC/Hunting does not have the addition grooves like you designed into your bullet. Could this be a problem? AIU

We have used the CEB with perfect results on 2 cow and 2 bull Ele, Zebra, Roan and Buffalo, in a variety of calibers from .416Rem to 500NE over the past three seasons. They are now my bullet of choice.

AIU,

The lack of the banding is not be a problem. My .423 caliber and .500 caliber MTH bullets are the only ones with the narrow driving bands that I'm aware of.

I could easily have used the FBH (Flat Base Hunting) bullet as the basis of my .500 caliber bullet with a trajectory very similar to my modified-MTH out to around 350 yards. Beyond 350 yards the extra BC of the MTH results in a flatter trajectory with higher retained velocity.

AIU, I should have mentioned - anyone can have Dan modify, combine, or create a new bullet design as long as they are willing to order and pay for a 250 bullet run. And should the design become a 'hot' seller I imagine that Dan would make it a stock item (just look at the range of Safari Raptor and Safari Solid bullets that are now stock items). And Dan has started adding in the LR Raptors in some calibers on his own.

LH,

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
AIU, I should have mentioned - anyone can have Dan modify, combine, or create a new bullet design as long as they are willing to order and pay for a 250 bullet run. And should the design become a 'hot' seller I imagine that Dan would make it a stock item (just look at the range of Safari Raptor and Safari Solid bullets that are now stock items). And Dan has started adding in the LR Raptors in some calibers on his own.

LH,

Jim, like yourself, I've had many long and productive converstions with Dan S. - he's a great guy and very accommodating. We should all support his business. I want him to succeed, not just because he's a great guy, but his bullets are the best.

The MTH 350 gr. .416 (Dan affectionately calls it the "TURD" - it does resemble a turd in shape) is competitive with the Barnes 350 gr. TTSX. This bullet is not too long, but just the right length. The CEB MTH does not have the plastic tip, which can break from recoil while in the magazine; and, the CEB MTH has a much higher BC.

I'm wondering, if he'd make a similar bullet at 250 grs or 270 grs for the .375 ("the little TURD"). I think it would have a larger market.

We could all go to Africa shooting TURDs...

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
We have used the CEB with perfect results on 1 cow and 2 bull Ele, Zebra, Roan and Buffalo, in a variety of calibers from .416Rem to 500NE over the past three seasons. They are now my bullet of choice.

Mike, which CEB bullets were you using? AIU

'TURDS'... I love it!

AIU,
I'm just musing here so take it for what it's worth...

I'm thinking the reason Dan had the multi-narrow driving bands on the FBH bullets but not the MTH is because the banding is slightly disruptive to the aerodynamics of the bullet hence it would reduce the effectiveness of the MTH at longer range. The FBH being designed for <400 yard shots likely saw little adverse impact from the multi-narrow banding...

Regarding the synthetic tips breaking up in the magazine from recoil...
I don't know if this will/would be an issue with the CEB' Talon Tips as Dan had to include the very small hole in the tip so the tips would breakup upon impact in Michael's bullet box. Tips without the small hole wouldn't breakup which impeded the expansion and shearing of the Safari Raptor's petals.

I believe the TTSX' synthetic tips do not have a similar small hole in the tip to assist in tip breakup on impact - so if this is correct they'd have to be constructed from a more fragile synthetic material which allows them to breakup on impact. I own no TTSX bullets so I'm just musing about this as well...

More musings...

Looking at the work Dan has done with the ERR's (Extended Range Raptors) - I especially like the design of the bullet having only 4 engravable driving bands, two independent center bands with two equivalent bands machined into the Ogive and into the Boat-tail of the bullet. I'd think the same bullet cut in copper would hit very close to your 250gr need...plus an MTH cut in the same shape without the Talon Tip would be pretty close to 270grs if constructed from copper. The effective BC of the bullet would also increase with the increased weight in either scenario...

Another thought - which would require either brass extra thick in the neck area or a chamber cut tighter in the neck area - would be an MTH bullet modified only in the shank area behind the Sealtite Band by having this area cut to .0005" under the barrel bore diameter. In this scenario the only engravable bullet material would be the driving band leading to the Sealtite Band and the Sealtite Band, the balance of the bullet would be non-engravable due to diameter. My thinking is the minimal amount of engraved bullet material would substantially reduce the bullet-to-barrel friction and resulting bullet caused barrel pressure which should result in increased bullet velocity. I may be wrong but I believe that's how it happens...

Just some additional musings...

AIU-

We used the BBW #13 in solid and non-con. I'm not sure what the new name for these is. Solids on 2 bull and 2 cow Ele. Non-cons on Zebra, Roan and Buff.

Shots:
1 Ele cow = .458B&M frontal brain, DRT
1 Ele bull = 500NE side brain, DRT
1 Ele cow = .458Lott disabling (knee) shot, follow-up
1 Ele bull = 500NE heart/lung running shot, 50 yds DRT
Buff bull = .416Rem frontal heart, 25 yds DRT
Zebra = .458B&M frontal quartering heart, DRT
Roan = .458B&M wound due to sticks collapse, follow-up

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
AIU-

We used the BBW #13 in solid and non-con. I'm not sure what the new name for these is. Solids on 2 bull and 2 cow Ele. Non-cons on Zebra, Roan and Buff.

Shots:
1 Ele cow = .458B&M frontal brain, DRT
1 Ele bull = 500NE side brain, DRT
1 Ele cow = .458Lott disabling (knee) shot, follow-up
1 Ele bull = 500NE heart/lung running shot, 50 yds DRT
Buff bull = .416Rem frontal heart, 25 yds DRT
Zebra = .458B&M frontal quartering heart, DRT
Roan = .458B&M wound due to sticks collapse, follow-up

Their new names are Safari Solids and Safari Raptors respectively.

Congrats on the successful hunt!!!