Everyone here, pretty much, agrees the 45-70 is a border line rifle for dangerous game. However, it does provide a rifle under 18" barrel, and pretty much under 7 pounds, in fact all the way down to 5 3/4 pounds.

So, here's the challenge: We need an alternative, always with you while fishing type rifle, with 4 rounds, at least, capacity, with better ballistics then a 45-70, but, with an 18" barrel, weighing under 7 pounds,5 and 1/2 pounds would be better, and, it would be nice to be able to shoot it without getting knocked out. Keep in mind, the short barrel must be figured into the equation, and that's going to reduce terminal ballistics... Also, keep in mind guide guns don't go much over 650 dollars...

For Africa, it probably has to be able to shoot 500 grain bullets, at what, 2100 fps out of an 18" barrel?
That goal would be nice for big bears, as well...

Any ideas?

G

What you describe is a 458 win mag, thou I am not sure if it would do 2100f/s in an 18" tube. At 5and1/2 pounds it would kick like mule and bite like a crockodile.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

other than barrel and weight, that's my youngest son's 458 winmag...

if i lop'ed the barrel off to 18, it would probably weight 7.5, as it's A hair over 8 right now.

it can NOT shoot 510 or 500 grs from the box, as i built it on a mexican mauser!!!

with a 24" barrel, it will hum 405s at 2400fps all day, every day.


now, back to a lever gun with more power..
take a browning 71, rebarrel/chamber for 450 alaskan or 45/90, and you are done.

it's STILL a complicated lever gun for murphy to have a field day with...

btw, big bores and light weight are cojoined concepts steming from those who HAVEN;T shot a sub9# full house 458 winmag

jeffe

Actually, for this use I would dig out the old 9,5x57 Mannlicher, or .375NE rimless.
It is a 8x57 necked up to .375, offers cases with correct headstamp, thus being legal all over Africa, and will let go of a 270 grs bullet at 2200f/s.
All you need is a .30-06 to rebarrel.
Still, I would not want it lighter than 7 pounds.

I had a Marlin 45/70 rebarreled for .50 Alaskan. mine was the Cowboy model not the 'stubby' but I am getting 1850fps with the woodleigh 535 grainer and 2000fps with a 500 grain lead. I am only pushing my loads to 32,000 psi and many folks state that they load to 42,000 psi.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Everyone here, pretty much, agrees the 45-70 is a border line rifle for dangerous game. However, it does provide a rifle under 18" barrel, and pretty much under 7 pounds, in fact all the way down to 5 3/4 pounds.

So, here's the challenge: We need an alternative, always with you while fishing type rifle, with 4 rounds, at least, capacity, with better ballistics then a 45-70, but, with an 18" barrel, weighing under 7 pounds,5 and 1/2 pounds would be better, and, it would be nice to be able to shoot it without getting knocked out. Keep in mind, the short barrel must be figured into the equation, and that's going to reduce terminal ballistics... Also, keep in mind guide guns don't go much over 650 dollars...

For Africa, it probably has to be able to shoot 500 grain bullets, at what, 2100 fps out of an 18" barrel?
That goal would be nice for big bears, as well...

Any ideas?

G

Sig Blaser R93 Scout model in 375 H&H. 16 inch barrel, 5.5 pounds.

Custom Mauser 98 in 9.3 x 62 with a 22 inch thin profile barrel. Not hard to bring it in at 7 pounds.

Winchester has their model 94 chambered in the 450 magnum as a new model now, don't know if this applies.

quote:

So, here's the challenge: We need an alternative, always with you while fishing type rifle, with 4 rounds, at least, capacity, with better ballistics then a 45-70, but, with an 18" barrel, weighing under 7 pounds,5 and 1/2 pounds would be better, and, it would be nice to be able to shoot it without getting knocked out.

This should fill the bill just fine. Lightweight and plenaty of punch!

http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl12-e.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Scota4570:

quote:

So, here's the challenge: We need an alternative, always with you while fishing type rifle, with 4 rounds, at least, capacity, with better ballistics then a 45-70, but, with an 18" barrel, weighing under 7 pounds,5 and 1/2 pounds would be better, and, it would be nice to be able to shoot it without getting knocked out.

This should fill the bill just fine. Lightweight and plenaty of punch!

http://world.guns.ru/grenade/gl12-e.htm

ROFL!

HMMM. Know a guy with one of those in his safe. In his line of work, tanks are in the equation...

I was thinking more along the lines of something like this:



http://world.guns.ru/assault/as16-e.htm


I guess I was wondering if anyone had lightened up a 375 H&H, since that's sort of the lowest of the rounds considered adequate, and how much fun it is shooting a short barreled 6 pound 375...

G

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
I guess I was wondering if anyone had lightened up a 375 H&H, since that's sort of the lowest of the rounds considered adequate, and how much fun it is shooting a short barreled 6 pound 375...

G

I shot a short barrel Blaser .375 which including the optics was not a lot over 6 pounds. It jumped a bit, but the recoil was neither painful nor uncontrollable. In fact it was much easier to handle than either of the Marlin 45-70's I owned as a youngster.

You would be hard pressed to find a better package than a short big bore levergun in this scenario. Of the factory leverguns on the market, my vote goes towards the new Winchester 94Timber. I have two short Marlin Guide rifles, one set-up w/ scout scope and the second w/ ghost sights only. I thought they were the bomb until I tried the Winchester. The 94 makes the Marlin feel awkward, blocky and heavy. The Timber is only 3' long, weighs about 6lbs, is slick, trim and accurate. Recoil w/ a good load is about 50 ft-lbs, but is easily managed and very fast on follow ups.

Gary

What's the minimum barrel length allowed in the United States, and Kalifornia in particular? Any restriction in Alaska?

Using a 375 H&H, what kind of velocity loss would you get going from a 21 inch(notice on the reloading pages they got almost 2400 fps using a 300 grain bullet, in a 21 inch barrel), to an 18 inch, to a 16 inch barrel, using 300 grain bullets?

Likewise the Lott/Winmag, using the same barrel lengths, and 500 grain bullets?

Jeffe:

I'm having a very hard time THINKING about shooting a 375 H&H from a 6 pound rifle, much less a 458. However, as others have posted, sometimes you give up ideal weight, and recoil handling, just to have the rifle there when you need it.

Since I have a 375 H&H, and don't like having too many calibers, a light 375 H&H might be a more practical solution then, as you have pointed out, a complicated lever gun.

Short barreled house sweeper?

G

My brother has a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun. It is very accurate and handy, and plenty powerful enough with the right loads.
For the same uses I like my Blaser R 93 Synthetic stock with the 19 3/4" "Tracker" bbl, which has sights.
Either one of them is about as handy and powerful/controlable package as you can get.

For Africa I would want nothing less than a 450/400 double rifle.
Even my 450 No2 at 11 3/4 lbs, with its 28" barrels, does not seem to heavy or big when you find yourself 10 yards or less from an elephant or cape buff.

I guess this is really about the Americas, for me.
If I was in Africa, I'd use a 375 H&H, since I can hit what I aim at with it, and, the guy behind me I'm paying, if things go south, has the stopper rifle.

In the Americas, out in Alaska, or the Northwest, actually doing other things, like taking out the trash, etc. besides a pistol, a rifle would be my first choice. I just don't see using a 45/70 when you could use a chopped down 375 H&H. On the otherhand, finding a reasonably priced, light, 375 H&H doesn't seem to be all that easy, either.

g

GS,

I have a chopped down 375H&H and use it as a hunting rifle. Something in the neighborhood of 8lbs w/ out scope would be about as good as you'll reasonably get w/ such a rig. Even then, it will never be as light or compact as the 94 I described. My 94 is not intended for hunting, though I have taken two deer w/ it for meat. I changed the sight system on mine, w/ a different version of the XS rear and a modified Marlin hooded front setup w/ a Williams fire bead. It is pretty darn accurate out to about 125 yards and is extremely quick and precise inside 75 yards. Out to aprox. 25 yards or so, you don't even need to use the sights at all. You can easily hit center mass by looking over the rear ghost peep and just aim by covering your target w/ the front hood (just like the Sig machinegun sights). I've looked at the Blaser Tracker and find it no where near as suitable for my needs as the 94.

Not to get into a huge debate, but I think the class of cartridges one would reasonably need for elephant and cape buffalo are different then what you would need for bear. In a close quarter defensive situation, I see no reason why you couldn't shoot lengthwise through a bear from just about any angle while using a good 45/70 or 450Marlin load.

Gary

If they ever get to market (see my post), the Spartan 45/70 double might be a good choice. Cut the barrels down to legal overall limit, hollow out the buttstock for lightness (won't be shooting enough to crack), screw on a big ghost ring in the back and a Firesight on front, and you should be there. Weight about 6-1/2 pounds, shorter than a lever (or the same length with longer barrels) and just as light loaded. Only two shots but really fast.

Gary:

This isn't about a hunting rifle. It's about a save your bacon rifle, from bear, buff, etc. I have little doubt the 45/70 is capable of very good penetration on brown bear, as is likewise my 45 revolver. That said, this is about trying to disuade the anmial from chewing on you, and, save a brain or spine shot, this means shock, created by velocity, along with penetration. 45/70 doesn't have the shock, and niether did the black powder 450 NE's, which had similar ballistics.

"Excuse me Mr. Bear, would you stop eating me? Don't you know I killed you with that shot, and you are going to die? Would you please not kill me in the process?"



The standard is the 480 grain, 2100-2200 fps NE 450 2 round. Problem is finding a rifle, or cartridge, that you can use that duplicates the case capacity, and the pressure, along with the ballistics. Since it's a low pressure cartridge, it is possible to take 45/70 double rifles, sometimes, and bore them out to 450 NE 2. This can give you a light, affordable, if you think 4000+ dollars is affordable, double rifle that you can use anywhere. I see 4k as half a safari, but that's just me.

Never heard of the Spartan, but, it might be a good choice for that.

While I am really a closet Nitro Express Fan, the 375 H&H is, I think, the most practical approach to this problem. While it's not as good a stopper as a 458 win mag, or lott, with 300 grain solids it both penetrates, and slaps a bit. Is it ideal? No, ideal would be a bolt 3 1/4 inch non-flanged, 458 round, at about 38k pressure, in sub 1k bolt action rifle, with a 5 shot magazine, and 18-20 inch barrel. That, with 480-500 grain bullets, would give you slap, on both ends, but better recoil then the current 458's which operate at much higher pressure, with much more recoil.

Real answer to this maybe to find a 460 WBY cheap, load it down, and still have 450 N2 ballistics...

Gary: What's the barrel length on the 375, and how much velocity do you loose, using 300 grain bullets, from longer barrels?

G

Scota4570,
I dont know about that I think it may be a push feed.
Although I dont think you would have to worry about the bolt handle falling off.

And hear I thought I was the only one that thought this way...


Government Forset Service rifles and use


See page 3

:The rifles used for training are like those to be carried in the field (that is short-barreled, bolt action .375 H&H Magnum)...."

They do an entire rifle test for what they consider are the best brown bear protection cartridges.

1st: 458 Win
2nd: 460 WBY
3rd: 375 H&H either light or heavy version
45/70 with 300 grain bullet 19th
" " 405 " " 27th


They ranked the 30-06 11 and 12 220 grain and 180 grain respectively.

They rank the following as the best bear defense combinations:

458 Win mag
375 H&H
338 Win Mag
and
30-06

Food for thought....

How about these? OK, they weigh about 7 lbs, thr 458 does not offer ballistics better than the .45-70 but the 500 does, but the price is outside of the range you specified. The 458 offers 15 rounds right now, the 500 can do at least 8 ...

www.teppojutsu.com

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
I guess this is really about the Americas, for me.

In the Americas, out in Alaska, or the Northwest, actually doing other things, like taking out the trash, etc. besides a pistol...

I just don't see using a 45/70 when you could use a chopped down 375 H&H.g

GS,

My previous post was based on what you stated above. You can reasonably get the weight down on a 338WM, 9.3x62, 375H&H, 416Taylor, etc., to around 8lbs or so and make an excellent light weight hunting rifle for the "Americas", "Alaska", or the "Northwest". But this same excellent hunting rifle will not be as easy to carry and handle as a big bore 94 when "doing other things, like taking out the trash, etc. besides a pistol".

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Gary:

This isn't about a hunting rifle. It's about a save your bacon rifle, from bear, buff, etc...

That said, this is about trying to disuade the anmial from chewing on you, and, save a brain or spine shot, this means shock, created by velocity, along with penetration. 45/70 doesn't have the shock, and niether did the black powder 450 NE's, which had similar ballistics.

The standard is the 480 grain, 2100-2200 fps NE 450 2 round.

This can give you a light, affordable, if you think 4000+ dollars is affordable, double rifle that you can use anywhere. I see 4k as half a safari, but that's just me.

No, ideal would be a bolt 3 1/4 inch non-flanged, 458 round, at about 38k pressure, in sub 1k bolt action rifle, with a 5 shot magazine, and 18-20 inch barrel.

Real answer to this maybe to find a 460 WBY cheap, load it down, and still have 450 N2 ballistics...

Gary: What's the barrel length on the 375, and how much velocity do you loose, using 300 grain bullets, from longer barrels?G

GS,

No offense, but you are all over the map here. Are you talking about a small big bore rifle to protect you from bears while taking out the trash, fishing etc.(in lieu of lugging a handgun or heavy rifle)...or are you talking about a do all rifle that can also be used as "insurance" to protect a client from a charging buff in Africa?

I currently utilize two firearms (one or both) in a situation where I'm outdoors doing other activities but choose to be armed in the unlikely event of a dangerous bear or person. A 6lb lever shooting a quality FN 350gr bullet @ approx. 2100fps and/or a compact 45Colt SA shooting a quality FN 300gr bullet @ just under 1300fps.

Either of the above are proven and work well. I've heard two loose minimum standards used such as a 180gr 30cal bullet at 2700fps or any caliber that shoots a 250gr bullet at 2500fps. But this is the first time I've heard the 450NE as being the "American" bear standard.

The barrel is cut down to 20". The velocity loss is negligible for its purpose.

Gary

Gary: No offense, but this is a work in progress. You are right, I am all over the map.

Here's my angle, and approach. I don't think of the 45/70 as a dangerous game round, niether does anyone here, and niether does the Alaskan
Gov Fish and game.
So, before I read the Fish and Game guide to bear guns, I concluded a chopped down 375, or 458 would be the way to go. I use the 450 Nitro express 2 as the american bear standard, because the 458 Winmag is a very close to these days, 450 Nitro express bolt action, with new powders, and high quality bullets. The 458 Win is considered an adequate bear stopper, as it is, if properly loaded, a dangerous game stopper in Africa. Is the Lott better? Probably.
Yet, from the government tests, the 458 works better, in their tests, at point blank range, then the Weatherby. Food for thought.

Now feel free to disagree, but, Apparently Alaska Fish and Game also feels the 458 Win/Nitro 450 specs are ideal stoppers for brown bear, and the 375 H&H third.

So, you might want to consider reconsidering your opinion on what a brown bear standard gun is, for stopping. I think your standard is for hunting.

I also found a nice letter on the buffalo bore website, by a famous bear guide, telling Tim Sundles how wonderful his 458 Win mag ammo was, as well as his 45/70 ammo.

quote:

Grizzly Skins of Alaska June 7, 04

Phil Shoemaker * Master Guide
PO Box 876110 Wasilla, AK 99687 (Message 907.376.2234)
PO Box 273 King Salmon, AK 99613 (May - Nov)

Tim,

I thought I'd let you know we had a good bear season. The 400 gr. .458 Win ammo you sent me worked superb My client got so rattled he a hit a big boar in the guts, the hind feet, hind leg and tail before running out of ammo for his .338. If I hadn't planted a 400 gr. bullet on his shoulder just before he got into the alders it might have become messy. The bullet was balled up under the hide on the off side.

I just did a test of penetration suing Hornady .458 Lott ammo. (22" bbl) Your 400 gr. .458 Win loads outpenetrated the factory 500 gr. Hornady .458 Lott by a good margin when fired from the same rifle!

500 gr. Hornady 2119 fps - .458 Lott
450 gr. Buffalo Bore 2256 fps - .458 Win

I carry your ammo exclusively in both my .45-70 and my .458 Win when hunting large bears.

Thanks

Phil

I guess this topic is much like you know what, everyone has a different opinion, and different experiences...
By the way, one thing the article from Alaska F&G did make clear, is the current factory bullet offerings for 45/70 suck, penetration wise.
I'd read a bit, and make sure that 350 grain bullet you are using wasn't designed for dear, when you want to use it on bear.

Old timer once told me you carry bullets for the worst animal you might run into.

"You use solids, not soft points. What happens if we turn the corner, and you have a soft point, when you need to brain an elephant at 10 yards?"

G

G

I personally like my Marlin guide gun. A 405gr kodiak bonded bullet at 1950fps is plenty potent, There is a reason they are as popular as they are, cause thier easy to carry, fast handling, and accurate. I have a scout scope and light rail on mine and its still under 7lbs.

Gs, i looked at the fish and game page you posted and it looks like it is 22 years old. And yes your right about a 300grain HSP bullet going 1600fps is not a bear stopper but i do believe that some of the ammo available now is. I shoot a 430grain hard cast bullet a around 1825fps and feel comfortable with this as a bear stopper. i do use a 375 for all my hunting but when berry picking, fishing and hiking the 45/70 is what i grab..this is just my opinion and i am sure no one will agree.
the bear_78 that is one nice looking rifle, is that a wild west stock?

I couldn't see spending 250+ for an unfinished stock but wanted more durablity than the factory wood stock offered so I took the factory stock down to bare wood and used spray on bedliner for a good durable finish. It is hard as iron and very water proof. It has 3 light coats of bedliner on the exterior and an epoxy finish on the inside to keep it water tight.

Here is a close up of the stock.

quote:

Originally posted by grizzinater:
Gs, i looked at the fish and game page you posted and it looks like it is 22 years old. And yes your right about a 300grain HSP bullet going 1600fps is not a bear stopper but i do believe that some of the ammo available now is. I shoot a 430grain hard cast bullet a around 1825fps and feel comfortable with this as a bear stopper. i do use a 375 for all my hunting but when berry picking, fishing and hiking the 45/70 is what i grab..this is just my opinion and i am sure no one will agree.
the bear_78 that is one nice looking rifle, is that a wild west stock?

Only 22 years old? It's a baby!! My rifle cartridges are all near 100, or more, likewise pistol cartridges...

G

the bear_78, for some reason the picture of the stock is not coming up? Are those xs sights i see. i just went and sighted xs sights in today, am very pleased except i am using the smaller apeture and i seem to have to have it raised quite a bit.How do you like the big lever? i also just put in a bear proof ejector. would like to do my stock like yours, whats the texture like? Never mind i got the pic.

I got it!!!

The 45/70 is like Linus' blanket: it makes you think you are secure, and, that makes you feel better.

The bear probably knows the difference between human with no rifle, and human with rifle, so it stays away, most of the time, from the guys with rifles. Also, considering the actual frequency of bear attacks, the 45/70 is probably as effective against bears as anything, just because the chances of getting attacked are very low.



GS

Remington make a .375 H&H thats is bloody light...almost sub 7 pounds I reckon, it's a stainless synthetic.........can you live with a 700 though

GS,

As previously stated, the TEST you are citing is very old and the testers were using what was available at that time off the shelf.

I use a Northfork 350gr FN bullet. It has been tested against numerous other .458" bullets designed for a levergun and it generally comes out on top. It is proven and it works well. It has more than enough penetration w/ some to spare. It delivers outstanding shock at point blank ranges. It works. If you are talking Africa, I'd say no...unless just maybe it could be used in some situation against big cats.

Phil Shoemaker has reported in the past that he carries a 45/70 using Buffalo Bore ammo during fishing season around big bears. When guiding clients for big bears he generally carries his Mark10 chambered in 458Win. I guess it is fair to say he has as much experience w/ big bears as anyone else alive today.

As far as other options? I like the 9.3x62 shooting a good 286gr bullet at normal speeds. I think a thin contour/short barreled standard length Mauser action chambered for this in a light synthetic stock would make an outstanding rifle for mountainous bear country. You would have near 375H&H power w/ minimal recoil. Other good choices along this line are 350RM/35Whelen. Both are proven effective and none I've mentioned are "linus blankets". If you can stand the recoil, a 338WM necked up to .416 (technically its a 458wm necked down) THE 416TAYLOR can make for a devastating powerhouse in a rifle around 8lbs. Food for thought.

Gary

Gary,

I've shot Taylors at 8 pounds. To master this combination takes a lot of practise. After that,you can not go anywhere because of the brain damage.

This sounds like a gun to wear at all times, like when taking at shit in the woods in brown bear contry. To survive, this rifle might be fired under strange circumstances in strange positions. I know I would like a rifle with a rather moderate recoil. One might need follow-ups, and how will one manage that with spoiled pants, feet in the air and with toilet-paper dimming your vision?

What one can shoot at the range and what can save ones life in the woods are two different things.

I like your idea abouth the .35Whelen and 9,3x62 alot better!

My reason for choosing the 375NE rimless was for magazine capasity, Africa and price-limit at 650$, othervise I would clearly go for a loaded down .375H&H with dropped magazine.

the 12 ga pump shotgun with buckshot & slugs has been "saving the bacon" for years, one would look long and hard to find any close in dangerous work it could not perform in a SxS Coach Gun mdl.
As for a DG killer slung across one's back while fishing,etc it can not be beat for close in work.
A friend of mine has a SxS 10 ga. with the barrels cut down to 18.5 " and a pistol grip installed. He shoots handloaded OOO Buckshot under 20 yds it is beyond comparison to ANY caliber centerfire rifle for nasty work!Load that baby with 500 gr slugs and I defy anything to take one at 30 yds or less and walk away.

When I was in Wrangell 10 years ago to fish a tributary of the Stikeen, I took a stainless Redhawk stuffed with 325 LBTS over a full dose of H110. The guide took a doubtful look and said, might work if you shoot the bear six times and throw the gun at him.
Then he handed us the standard medicine in the Alaskan Panhandle: a plain-Jane 12-gauge pump with Brenneke slugs and buck alternating. Take a dog and a 12-gauge if you want real bear protection, he said.
As to that Alaska Fish and Game report, given the choice between a Model 95 in .405 with good bullets and a .30-06, I think I would take the .405.

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
the 12 ga pump shotgun with buckshot & slugs has been "saving the bacon" for years, one would look long and hard to find any close in dangerous work it could not perform in a SxS Coach Gun mdl.
As for a DG killer slung across one's back while fishing,etc it can not be beat for close in work.
A friend of mine has a SxS 10 ga. with the barrels cut down to 18.5 " and a pistol grip installed. He shoots handloaded OOO Buckshot under 20 yds it is beyond comparison to ANY caliber centerfire rifle for nasty work!Load that baby with 500 gr slugs and I defy anything to take one at 30 yds or less and walk away.

You and your friend have obviously never hunted Cape buffalo with such a rig.

George

you could get one of these 6 pounders:



http://www.heritagearms.net

500,

I find the "tracking" rifle in 9.3x62 appealing in a utilitarian kind of way.

What is the street price on this?

Gary

Good points.

How about dropping the pressure from 60k to 40k in a 375? You loose a couple hundred feet of velocity, but, you have 9.3X 62 ballistics, still, and a heavier bullet, with much less recoil?

quote:

...othervise I would clearly go for a loaded down .375H&H with dropped magazine.

Good idea:

Gary: Go up the thread, and I posted Phil Shoemaker's letter to Tim Sundles, owner of buffalo bore. You are right.


I guess the 450 grain Buffalo Bore 458 winmag load goes 2256, and works better then a 500 grain Lott, at least according to him.

Sundles load looks very close to the standard,
450 N2, 480 grains at 2150 fps.
The weird part is Buffalo Bore doesn't have 458 win mag on their website, but I know he makes em. Maybe a custom run?


Here's a picture of a cape buffalo taken with a guide gun: NOT my cup of tea...



http://www.buffalobore.com/hunts/images/seyffert.jpg

G

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
500,

I find the "tracking" rifle in 9.3x62 appealing in a utilitarian kind of way.

What is the street price on this?

Gary

I think they are $2100 or $2300 - can't remember clearly.

500,
I've come around to respect you a lot for your knowledge, experience and opinions.

I am now truly lost in the dark woods, and ask you to please explain how a Blaser is a DGR while a Weatherby is not?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
please explain how a Blaser is a DGR while a Weatherby is not?