quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
500,
I've come around to respect you a lot for your knowledge, experience and opinions.

I am now truly lost in the dark woods, and ask you to please explain how a Blaser is a DGR while a Weatherby is not?

Bent,

My personal opinion is that neither a Wby nor a Blaser is a DGR because they both lack CRF (and other reasons). However, given that folks are looking for a very lightweight rifle in a powerful caliber, other than custom guns the Blaser is one of a very short list of options.

If I wanted a very light package in a powerful caliber, I think I would convert a Model 95 to 9.3 x 62 with the lightest 18-21" barrel contour possible. Or maybe use a Husqvarna small ring as the basis for the rifle.

Another good option would be a 450/400 double, although it would not be as light as other optins.

OK, thanks, Dan, as long as I know you rate them both as not DGR's.
Cause if one was, and the other was not....see?

.

I RTFA. Regarding the .45/70 as tested:

The lack of a
proper bullet is unfortunate. The .45-70
can be obtained in a compact, moderate
weight, lever-action rifle that may be
easier and faster to operate, particularly
for left-handed people.
Perhaps the current reinterest in .45-70
rifles will cause the manufacturers to
produce a more suitable bullet. We do
not consider factory-loaded .45-70
ammunition particularly suitable for a
rifle for protection from bears, especially
with the 405-gr bullet.
============================================

Ignoring the fact that their testing is as flawed as most other bullet testing (ranking cartridge effectiveness by some arbitrary assumptions about bears will react), they _do_ appear to like the .45/70. As they should-- properly loaded (hot), with good bullets (Northfork or something like the Garrett rounds), they should do fine. Would anyone seriously prefer a .30-06 when faced with a grizzly?

pertinax
As you have stated, there are a lot of new 45/70 loads on the market since that old study.
Everyone here knows how fond I am of the 9,3x74R round, and a 300 grain 375 H&H needs no
lip service from me.
However, for the price you pay, and the burden you bear, actually carrying and quickly "using" a protection rifle for the big bears, all facts considered, the 45/70 is probably the best choice. I have owned and carried a fullsized marlin for exactly this use. This was pre Guide Gun days. My brother has a Guide Gun, and I much prefer it to the full sized Marlin I had.
I have carried his Guide Gun in AK without fear. Since I do not have a Guide Gun, I would use my Blaser Tracker in 375 for the same function. However I would prefer my 450/400 or my 450 No2 if I KNEW I was going to be attacked.
I would feel perfectly safe to go into a garage after a mad big bear with a Guide gun in 45/70 with the proper loads.
I also think a Guide Gun with the proper loads would also shoot to the brain of any charging cape buff, heck my 44 Mag will do that [proven in Zim]. However for elephants.... well that is a whole new world.
Gentlemen, IMHO there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between a rifle and cartridge suitable for protection vs a cartridge suitable for hunting.
When you are charged by any animal, and he/she is danger close only a brain or upper CNS hit is guarenteed to save you live. You must have a bullet able to do the job. If the rifle is "powerful" enough to knock down the animal with a miss to the brain, so much the better.
If you have the right bullet, and make a good shot, or are "lucky" enough to instantly stop the animal with a CNS miss, good. If not you suffer, and/or die, That is why they call it Dangerous Game Hunting. Would you want it anyother way?
Two things you can control, choice of rifle, and the level of your skill.
Choose and practice wisely, lives hang in the balance.

Here is what I've done! Long throat 458 win mag on a VZ-24, ram line stock, 18 inch pac-Nor barrel, internally machined muzzel brake,F990 pad. 2100fps, 500gr bullet, 7.5lbs and shoots one hole groups at 100yrds. The long throat 458win mag will gain you 100fps when loading the bullet out .250. Recoil is no issue. This is a gun designed to be carried and shot only a few times. I used it in OZ on water Buff and it was a winner.-Rob

Robgunbulider
Sounds like you have a winner. What 500 grain bullet do you use? Baised on my 2004 Zim trip, the 500 gr Swift A Frame deserves a good look, as do the 480 or the 500 gr Woodleigh Soft.

Most likely I'm going to pick up either a CZ Lott, or another 375, cut the barrel down to 22 ", find a lightweight glass stock(McMillian?)
put a brake on it, use a peep site setup, similar to an M1A, and go with that.

Anyone have a less expensive way of doing it? I like the F990 pad. Rob, do you like that better then the magnum Kick-eze?
Yes, I know it isn't going to be a feather weight...

G
PS
Any problems in lowering the 458 Lott loads to the 40-50K range?

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
And hear I thought I was the only one that thought this way...


Government Forset Service rifles and use


See page 3

:The rifles used for training are like those to be carried in the field (that is short-barreled, bolt action .375 H&H Magnum)...."

They do an entire rifle test for what they consider are the best brown bear protection cartridges.

1st: 458 Win
2nd: 460 WBY
3rd: 375 H&H either light or heavy version
45/70 with 300 grain bullet 19th
" " 405 " " 27th


They ranked the 30-06 11 and 12 220 grain and 180 grain respectively.

They rank the following as the best bear defense combinations:

458 Win mag
375 H&H
338 Win Mag
and
30-06

Food for thought....

No its not the ammo used in the test was factory loaded rem/ ammo the slowest ammo made for a 45/70 it can be used in 150 yeaars old rifles ... Bogus test results...

Try here
Conley Precision Cartridge

Or here

Grizzly Cartridge Company

Just two of the many companys that make loaded ammo for the LEVER ACTION 45/70.
All of them are safe to use in you new mod/ lever action rifles ....

Martin

PA Bullet's

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Most likely I'm going to pick up either a CZ Lott, or another 375, cut the barrel down to 22 ", find a lightweight glass stock(McMillian?)
put a brake on it,

BRAKE????

Tell you what, even with plugs and muffs your hearing WILL TAKE DAMAGE AT EVERY SHOT!!!!
Without, hell is close.

When you can not sleep at night because of that high, pitching tone in your head, you would wish you had installed a mercury recoil reducer and carried that extra pound with you instead.

Grizzly says they get 2050 fps out of a 400 grain bullet in the 45-70. If that velocity is not just marketing fiction, it still only achieves 3780 ft lbs and is not legal for hunting African dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Grizzly says they get 2050 fps out of a 400 grain bullet in the 45-70. If that velocity is not just marketing fiction, it still only achieves 3780 ft lbs and is not legal for hunting African dangerous game.

All very true . But mike the gent that owns Grizzly will load your shells up to 44.000 PSI
---With-- the understanding that he is not responsable if you blow your gun to bits shooting those type shells in your rifle.
Mike loads 99% of all his lever action shell's


..One other thing if i may ..

then 500 Grains Sr are you saying that the
50 Alaskan would fill the bill for a DG rifle .

Most of those are built on a Marlin Action


50 Alaskan 435 Grain WFNGC
SKU: 50AK435WFNGC

Caliber: 50 Alaskan
Bullet Wt: 435 Grain WFNGC
Velocity: 2100 fps


-------

Or would my 50-110 in my browning BLR
i do drive my 525s ..Jacketed mind you at over 2100 FPS..?

While there maybe a set limit to what a person can shoot in your area Sr its not that way all over africa.
Just like my 9.3x64 I can hunt Cape With it all day long in just about every place in Africa.
where a 375 is required. i dont know of one gulde or one farm that won't let me shoot the 9.3x64 at Cape ... But then again thats me .

Even if you dont like the ...Idea... of me hunting in your neck of the woods with a 45/70 .. Say La Ve .. i will keep using my 9.3x64 as well .... then again i do understand were your coming from .... a first timer in the out back should be armed with somthing that will kill even if he hits the jaw bow or knee cap.

From the time i was 8 and every year after i spent 4 months ayear hunting... i have but more then my share of bullets down range.

That makes it about 46 years at 4 months a year.
save the 4 i was married so thats 42 years ..

thats alot of years in the field ..If you like you can add 2 months to that a year for ducks as well but then again i have not been charged by a duck


Martin

Martin,

You seem to have a thorn in your side over this.

If you want to hunt with a lever gun, and even if you want to break the law, it really doesn't matter to me. My post was intended to point out that the Grizzly ammo does not make the energy cut-off for legality.

Personally, I outgrew lever guns a long time ago, but each person is entitled to his own preference.

This is my idea of the perfect Alaskan fishing rifle. Make mine a .50 Alaskan please. Only downside is the extra paperwork and $200 transfer tax.
.jpg]http://wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/Bushwacker2.jpg
http://wildwestguns.com/Bushwacker/Smallbushwacker1.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Martin,

You seem to have a thorn in your side over this.

If you want to hunt with a lever gun, and even if you want to break the law, it really doesn't matter to me. My post was intended to point out that the Grizzly ammo does not make the energy cut-off for legality.

Personally, I outgrew lever guns a long time ago, but each person is entitled to his own preference.

quote:

and even if you want to break the law

What law am i braking i told you once already i am not braking any laws ... Hunt with the 600 Nitro Express hell i will even make you bullets for it .

If the guide's have told me i can hunt there ranchs in Namb/ or tanz / with it i can hunt there ranch end of story ...

You seem to be the one with the torn my friend.

PA Bullet's

Mr. Potts,

The ranch/concession owner is not the law. He might let you break the law. But you would still be breaking the law.

Again, it's fine with me if you or anyone else want to break the law as it is not my job to enforce it.

But please do not ask me to believe something is illegal when clearly it is not.

Thank you.

The more I read about these loads, the more I think a single shot Ruger would be the way to go, so you don't have to worry about overloading, and blowing up a lever action.

Double would be better...


Also, the 50 Alaskan has a serious lack of sectional density, but, considering the .500 Linebaugh works fine for PENETRATION, not stopping with similar loads, I see no reason to think that round would be inadequate for hunting most animals. Stopping? Maybe, but, now you have the problem of the bullets holding together. As I've said earlier, the problem with pushing cast bullets 2100 fps is leading, and, if they are hard enough, about 22 something isn't it?, they get brittle, and won't hold together on bone. Not sure I like the idea of using such a combination when I can get proven 375 solids for 25-50 dollars a box.

I've often toyed with going to a 45/70 BFR for a carry revolver, and a 458 Lott for a carry rifle. Would keep reloading simple...


Another solution was a ruger single shot, with an 18 inch barrel, opened up to 510 wells. Gun weighed about 6 pounds. Killed on both ends...

Anyone shot a rifle lately with 170 ft-lbs of recoil?

WWOW! By going from a 'light' 600 grain bullet at 2100 ft per sec, giving 170 ft-lbs of recoil, going to a max load, of 600 grains at 2450 moves it up to 230 ft-lbs in a 6 lb rifle.

Best technique against a bear would be to thrown him the rifle, and have him shoot, it. It would knock him out, and, he's unlikely to hit you anyway...
G

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
The more I read about these loads, the more I think a single shot Ruger would be the way to go, so you don't have to worry about overloading, and blowing up a lever action.

Double would be better...


Also, the 50 Alaskan has a serious lack of sectional density, but, considering the .500 Linebaugh works fine for PENETRATION, not stopping with similar loads, I see no reason to think that round would be inadequate for hunting most animals. Stopping? Maybe, but, now you have the problem of the bullets holding together. As I've said earlier, the problem with pushing cast bullets 2100 fps is leading, and, if they are hard enough, about 22 something isn't it?, they get brittle, and won't hold together on bone. Not sure I like the idea of using such a combination when I can get proven 375 solids for 25-50 dollars a box.

I've often toyed with going to a 45/70 BFR for a carry revolver, and a 458 Lott for a carry rifle. Would keep reloading simple...


Another solution was a ruger single shot, with an 18 inch barrel, opened up to 510 wells. Gun weighed about 6 pounds. Killed on both ends...

Anyone shot a rifle lately with 170 ft-lbs of recoil?

WWOW! By going from a 'light' 600 grain bullet at 2100 ft per sec, giving 170 ft-lbs of recoil, going to a max load, of 600 grains at 2450 moves it up to 230 ft-lbs in a 6 lb rifle.

Best technique against a bear would be to thrown him the rifle, and have him shoot, it. It would knock him out, and, he's unlikely to hit you anyway...
G

If your really looking i mean really looking for a DG lever acrtion rifle go the route i did

I started off buying a BLR 300 Winchester Mag
( full length vertion not the shorty )
Then i had it! rebarreled and rechamberd to
50-110.. Most folks dont look on the BLR as a true lever action becouse of its box feed
but i have mine made up becouse i was hoping some day to run into King Ray out in the field
and i know how it will just gall ray to see a lever action in Africa it was worth every penny ...

The 50-110 in the BLR mag action does have advantages of being a 55.000 PSI action to start with ..

as it is i am doing way over 5000 Lb's at the muzzle with a 525 grain jacketed bullet
--------
My 525 grain Pa Bullet in .510 diameter
10 % taper to a flat point or hollow point or lead tipped

quote:

BLR 300 Winchester Mag

That looks like a REALLY cool solution!!


G

quote:

Originally posted by GS:

quote:

BLR 300 Winchester Mag

That looks like a REALLY cool solution!!


G

I forgot to add the whole thing ...Rifle and
barrel and the chambering cost a fraction over $1000.00 ,

And the BLR does not have the feeding problems
of the winchester 86 since the BLR is box feed