Gentlemen,

What might you compare the 416 Rigby recoil to in a like weighted rifle (400 gr @2400 FPS)?
Would it be similar to a 458 Win mag with 500 gr pills?

I have owned, and shot, both. In same weight rifles; the Rigby is a bit quicker recoil impulse VS the slightly slower but heavier "thump" of the 458. Probably not much difference.

Rich

The 458 win and 416 aren't very different in similar weighted rifles, kind of a big push.

John

Yes eezridr, the .458 Win Mag is a good comparison to the .416 Rigby. I've made the calculations below showing recoil for both to be in the range of 77 to 78 ft lbs of recoil.


Cartridge: .458 Winchester Magnum
Rifle Weight with Scope: 8.9 lbs
Bullet Weight: 500 grs
Muzzle Velocity: 2150
Average Powder Weight: 76 grs
7000 grains = 1 pound
Powder Gas Velocity = 5200 fps

[500/7000 x 2150] + [76/7000 x 5200] = 8.9 x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

210.03 / 8.9 = Rifle Recoil Velocity = Free Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Free Recoil Velocity = 23.60 fps

KE = [8.9 x 23.60 x 23.60] / 64.32, therefore;

KE = 77.07 ft. lbs. = Free Recoil Energy for .458 Winchester Magnum weighing 8.9 pounds.


Cartridge: .416 Rigby
Rifle Weight with Scope: 8.9 lbs
Bullet Weight: 400 grs
Muzzle Velocity: 2400
Average Powder Weight: 100 grs
7000 grains = 1 pound
Powder Gas Velocity = 5200 fps

[400/7000 x 2400] + [100/7000 x 5200] = 8.9 x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

211.43/ 8.9 = Rifle Recoil Velocity = Free Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Free Recoil Velocity = 23.76 fps

KE = [8.9 x 23.76 x 23.76] / 64.32, therefore;

KE = 78.12 ft. lbs. = Free Recoil Energy for .416 Rigby weighing 8.9 pounds.

Online recoil calculator shows 59 for the 45 and 62 for the 416, from 9.5 pound rifles.

The main question being answered, I hope no one will mind if I throw the 416 Rem into the mix. I know its ballistics are supposed to duplicate the Rigby, but would its recoil impulse be more because of the difference in case, powder and pressure curve?

Less powder, less recoil.

Recoil in foot lbs is available from all sorts of online calculator sites. This one is simple:

http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

I figured, rule of thumb for three standard calibers.

30-06 Spfd about 20, 25 ft. lbs.

45-70 Govt. about 40, 45 ft. lbs.

.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. about 65 ft. lbs.

Fit of the rifle affects felt recoil, along with recoil pad. I think higher velocity rounds have a "sharper jolt" while large bore, slower velocity calibers are more like a "big push."

That said, I can shoot 30-06 off the bench all day. But .458 Win. after about 10 rds. I'm ready to shoot something else.

This recoil calculator

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

gives different (lower numbers) but the answer is the same. The recoil of both the 416 Rigby and the 458 Win Mag with the loadings given by Bullwvf come out to within a couple of pounds of each other.

in the same weight rifle, the rigby 400gr at 2400, is within 5% of the 458 winmag, 500gr at 2300 2150 ... the 416 remington/ruger/AccRels kick slight less due to burning VERY much less powder than the rigby

Cartridge: .458 Winchester Magnum
Rifle Weight with Scope: 8.9 lbs
Bullet Weight: 500 grs
Muzzle Velocity:2300
Average Powder Weight: 81 grs ? Not Sure
7000 grains = 1 pound
Powder Gas Velocity = 5200 fps

[500/7000 x 2300] + [81/7000 x 5200] = 8.9 x Rifle Recoil Velocity, therefore;

224.46 / 8.9 = Rifle Recoil Velocity = Free Recoil Velocity, therefore;

Free Recoil Velocity = 25.22 fps

KE = [8.9 x 25.22 x 25.22] / 64.32, therefore;

KE = 88.01 ft. lbs. = Free Recoil Energy for .458 Winchester Magnum weighing 8.9 pounds.

I've never pushed a .458 Win to 2300 fps with a 500 gr bullet. My .458 Win is a FN which weighs 8.9 lbs. My .458 Lott is at the 10 lb mark.

Closing in on 90 ft lbs is stout.

I get approximately 14% more recoil of the .458 Win over the .416 Rigby when a 500 gr bullet is pushed to 2300 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
I get approximately 14% more recoil of the .458 Win over the .416 Rigby when a 500 gr bullet is pushed to 2300 fps.

a winmag CAN NOT push a 500gr pill 2300fps, unless its seated as long as a lott.

the discussion is winmag, 2150, not lott .. right?

Guys,

Win Mag is correct
I posted this question on the 416 thread however it may be better addressed here.
I did some test loads a few weeks back (458 WM) I posted with 2230 & a 500 gr Hornady interlock bullet.
With 74 gr of 2230 I achieved an average of 2190 FPS about 12' from the muzzle or most likely 2200 FPS @ the muzzle.
I was shooting open sighted with a 8 lb rifle. The recoil pad is 45 years old and for all intents and purposes has no cushioning value. That gun hurts to shoot off the bench! 15 rounds (ouch!). It also has quite a bit of muzzle rise (light weight barrel).
What would you calculate as the recoil and recoil velocity with these parameters?

EZ

I used some of Bullwyf's equations above to answer my own questions if 5200 FPS is the burn rate velocity of 2230 powder?

It came to a recoil velocity of 26.51 FPS
and free recoil of 87.41 ft lbs for a 8 lb rifle.

No wonder it was noticeable !! with that brick recoil pad.
It will be more tolerable when I add a mercury tube, decelarator and the weight of bases, rings and a 1.5 x 5 Leupold. Perhaps I can get the weight to 9.5 lbs.

BTW; My original question stemmed from the fact I am looking at a Kimber of Oregon 416 Rigby as a possible purchase and was curious about the recoil. I knew it would be more than my 416 Remington. I know the Kimber is at least 1 lb heavier and perhaps 1.5 above my 458 Win mag. Still debating the purchase. I like the classic cartridge (416 Rigby) but my custom mod 70 416 Rem shoots extremely well as a functional tool

EZ

The Rigby is a pussycat.

I have a 416 Rigby and had a 458 Win Mag. Color me in the minority, but the Win Mag hurt to shoot and the Rigby is no problem at all. Shot side by side, the 458 would give me a headache every time and the 416 felt like a pellet gun next to it.

Granted, the stocks are vastly different, my Rigby wears a stock made by Duane Wiebe and the 458 was a factory Winchester Safari, but there was quite a difference in recoil between my two rifles. The 458 was just not enjoyable to shoot at all.

Agree with Jeffeosso, I used 2100 fps for the 458 Win Mag when I ran the numbers through the handloads.com recoil calculator.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
I have a 416 Rigby and had a 458 Win Mag. Color me in the minority, but the Win Mag hurt to shoot and the Rigby is no problem at all. Shot side by side, the 458 would give me a headache every time and the 416 felt like a pellet gun next to it.

Granted, the stocks are vastly different, my Rigby wears a stock made by Duane Wiebe and the 458 was a factory Winchester Safari, but there was quite a difference in recoil between my two rifles. The 458 was just not enjoyable to shoot at all.

My guess is the LOP is wrong for you on the winchester. I have a 14 1/4" LOP, a 13.5" gun is brutal, much like getting kicked in the face by a mule. A 14" can be shot all day.

The 458 I have is lighter than my 416, but they still feels about the same.

If you want the abuse, you have to go the lott or above.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by CAS II:
I have a 416 Rigby and had a 458 Win Mag. Color me in the minority, but the Win Mag hurt to shoot and the Rigby is no problem at all. Shot side by side, the 458 would give me a headache every time and the 416 felt like a pellet gun next to it.

Granted, the stocks are vastly different, my Rigby wears a stock made by Duane Wiebe and the 458 was a factory Winchester Safari, but there was quite a difference in recoil between my two rifles. The 458 was just not enjoyable to shoot at all.

My guess is the LOP is wrong for you on the winchester. I have a 14 1/4" LOP, a 13.5" gun is brutal, much like getting kicked in the face by a mule. A 14" can be shot all day.

The 458 I have is lighter than my 416, but they still feels about the same.

If you want the abuse, you have to go the lott or above.

John

A very good observation! My LOP for a bolt action rifle is 14" and I note a more tolerable recoil threshold at this LOP than the apparent industry std of 13.5".

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
in the same weight rifle, the rigby 400gr at 2400, is within 5% of the 458 winmag, 500gr at 2300 ... the remington/ruger/AccRels kick slight less due to burning VERY much less powder than the rigby

This is why I thought jeffeosso was measuring at 2300 fps.

I am no expert on big bores....but I do know that the stock / rifle fit is the key. I got a chance to shoot a few double rifles with some US friends and this is how it went.

9.3X74R Merkel was just like my Mauser 9.3X62 - a 9 lbs rifle
450/400 Webley action - just a bit stronger but very shootable & a sweet rifle which I shot very accurately
470 Chapuis - did not fit me and the comb knocked my cheek bone & I carried a lump for a few days. My head was ringing for a long time.
600 NE Jeffery 15 lbs rifle - one huge push - I took a step back - but there was no pain or discomfort.

That Chapuis 470 really intimidated me & even the gorgeous wood on it did not attract me to pick it up again. The funny thing is my friend shoots it so well - dropping a running Zebra with a snap shot between trees & a charging cow elephant at 10 yards...

I'm not going to pontificate over numbers. A 416 Rigby in a CZ bolt shooting 400gr bullets is an absolute puppy compared to a model 700 Safari in 416 Remington sans scope.

Physics, schmizics.

Here's all I know:

.375 H&H doesn't hurt.
.416 hurts
.458 hurts more

Mauser93-I like the way you think, even if you're wrong!

.375HH-no hurt
.458WM-hurt
.416R-hurts more

yep, i misstated 2300... i'll go fix that to 2150

416rigby and 458winmag are REALLY close in recoil...

guys, 458s don't hurt, certainly not winmags ... lotts hurt .. winmags are gun

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
yep, i misstated 2300... i'll go fix that to 2150

416rigby and 458winmag are REALLY close in recoil...

guys, 458s don't hurt, certainly not winmags ... lotts hurt .. winmags are gun

I'll agree with Jeffe on this! The 416 Rigby, especially with slower powders, is very controllable and not bad to shoot. With a bit of instruction, I can coach folks into shooting my RSM comfortably, most will say it looks worse than it feels. I can fire my 416 sitting, kneeling, standing, and still be accurate and comfy, the same cannot be said for the lott.

John

John,
the lott can be done the same, for most folks .. though, in all honesty, its a different level, and the ceiling for most people ... though once mastered, most 500s then become easy enough to shoot ... PRONE is a nightmare, and sometimes dangerous, in really big bores ... the 550 express, 700gr at 2130, equates to a 577NE, is kind of fun to shoot standing, accurate sitting or knealing... NEVER tried prone, and off the bench, you must hold the rifle...

the lott is a higher threshold .. and attainable if you want .. and even i don't kid anyone ... the 500gr at 2300 is about where big bore and BIG recoil, start

Not trying to hijack the thread but have a quick question. About where would a 12ga shooting a 2 & 3/8 oz turkey load fall in the felt recoil spectrum. I know a shotgun has a different type of recoil but just looking for a relative equivalent. I can tell you i can't shoot very many of those in a row.

My Ruger #1 .458 beats the snot out of me especially when pushed to .458 Lott levels (very long throat and a s.s). My 416 Ruger M77 (seriously heavy first version) is a pleasure in comparison, even when launching 400 grs. @2550. I think the #1 wouldn't be that bad if Ruger had put a .458 proportioned stock on the beast.
C.G.B.

Grayduck you can do it yourself with the link provided by chuck375:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

You will also need a converion for oz to grains, there is conversion for that online if you google or FYI - 1oz = 437.5 grain. Powder is not a big deal, you can guess, but you need gun wt and muzzle velocity to be correct.

Well that's 1039 grains of shot (not counting wad) at 1210 fps with about 40 gr of powder out of a 7.3 lb shotgun.

87.19 ft/lbs, that looks like it's up there with some of the big bores.

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
My Ruger #1 .XXXX beats the snot out of me especially when pushed to .458 Lott levels
C.G.B.

Ruger #1 will beat the snot out of you .. caliber isn't the defining factor .. a 416 rigby is one is a beast, too ...

quote:

Well that's 1039 grains of shot (not counting wad) at 1210 fps with about 40 gr of powder out of a 7.3 lb shotgun.

87.19 ft/lbs, that looks like it's up there with some of the big bores.

If you have a reloading scale, you could weight a fired round and loaded round. The difference would be the 1093 grains of shot plus all the rest (wad, filler, powder) could be entered in as powder. I bet you could crank that number higher.

These turkey hunting rules are nuts.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
John,
the lott can be done the same, for most folks .. though, in all honesty, its a different level, and the ceiling for most people ... though once mastered, most 500s then become easy enough to shoot ... PRONE is a nightmare, and sometimes dangerous, in really big bores ... the 550 express, 700gr at 2130, equates to a 577NE, is kind of fun to shoot standing, accurate sitting or knealing... NEVER tried prone, and off the bench, you must hold the rifle...

the lott is a higher threshold .. and attainable if you want .. and even i don't kid anyone ... the 500gr at 2300 is about where big bore and BIG recoil, start

I really couldn't think of a situation where shooting a big bore in the prone would be necessary. Sitting is about the worst I would want to do.

John

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
My Ruger #1 .458 beats the snot out of me especially when pushed to .458 Lott levels (very long throat and a s.s). My 416 Ruger M77 (seriously heavy first version) is a pleasure in comparison, even when launching 400 grs. @2550. I think the #1 wouldn't be that bad if Ruger had put a .458 proportioned stock on the beast.
C.G.B.

The #1 is a good rifle, but its shape and width of stock isn't conducive to long range sessions with anything over 375 H&H. My wife has one in 450/400, but the first thing we did is cut it to her LOP and install a Pach 1" Decelerator pad, it takes quite a bit of sting out of it.

John

[/QUOTE]

I really couldn't think of a situation where shooting a big bore in the prone would be necessary. Sitting is about the worst I would want to do.

John[/QUOTE]

Hunting Cape Buffalo in a low forest could well require a prone position shot.

quote:

Hunting Cape Buffalo in a low forest could well require a prone position shot.

That would hurt.

Yes, it does. It is about respect, commitment, acceptance.

Crawling on your hands and knees and "duck-walking" for hours in the thorn invested low forest is what hurts (at least hurts me)