I have no idea what a 100# of "free recoil energy" really means but I know it when I feel it... if the calculator is right.

My .505 spitting 525g bullets at 2350 seems "reasonable". Not 2100fps 458 Win Mag reasonable @ 65#, but "reasonable". 600gs doing 2210fps not so reasonable.

Recoil is such a personal thing. Some can take the abuse while others can't. It isn't a level of your manhood either way. More likely just not enough time behind a big bore sending the heavy bullets down range. While torn retinas and brain trama/concussions a real possibility any one can teach yourself to shoot a big bore, throwing heavy bullets.

But it really annoys me when I hear that 90 to 100# of recoil is trivial.

525g, 2350fps, 100g of powder, 9.5# rifle, 89# of recoil

600g, 2200fps, 95g of powder, 9.5# rifle, 96# of recoil

550g, 2250fps, 80g of powder, 8# rifle, 96# of recoil

500g, 2100fps, 70g of powder, 8.5# rifle, 66# of recoil

400g, 2400fps, 80g of powder, 8.66# rifle, 60# of recoil

Looks like a fun toy....to filter the BS.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Discuss/opinions?

460 WBY 500 gr. factory loads and 378/300s at 3000+ are about my heaviest recoil to date. Certainly don't think 100 lbs. is trivial. Helps my 416 Rem. feel like a pussycat though.

Not sure why you get annoyed at opinions of others. What beats one person to death another shooter may find enjoyable.

Enjoy your big bores.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Not sure why you get annoyed at opinions of others.

This from the guy who hunts with empty chambers...on several threads? Come on have some fun!

What does your 450 Searcy weigh in at..load? Just curious as to it level of recoil by the numbers. I'd guess 60 to 65# of recoil.

Dude,
What in the world does hunting with an empty chamber have to do with this discussion? And why would that bother you? You asked for opinions and I gave you mine.

Missed your question about the Searcy.......Load data is 90-92 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain Hornady. Rifle weighs about 10.5 pounds. And it sure has a wallop. But nothing like Omnivorous_Bob 4 bore that I shot one day, I think his rifle had something like 180 ft pounds of recoil. Perhaps he can chime in. It was certaintly at my limit, probably beyond my limit as I was wearing a coat and still had a black and blue shoulder for 2 weeks after firing it.

Thanks for the opinion and load data

Big difference for me between 60# of recoil and 100# of recoil. Those that shoot 100# I suspect know it just as well and don't mind admitting it aint all that much fun.

Felt recoil is so subjective it's hardly worth comparing, even by the numbers it doesn't really show anything in comparison to the real world.

I'm so far past 100# with most of the stuff I build it's not even funny. But that doesn't really prove anything.

I have two video's on you tube of two different people shooting the same 2 Bore rifle that I built. The video of me shooting it was with the 500gr charge, and it doesn't move me back, it just barely picks up my front foot. But with the same gun and a 350gr charge, it will make my friend in the other video take a full step back.

Me shooting it with this load:
2 Bore - 3375gr round ball, 500gr Goex ffg, 1300fps, 24 pound rifle. 403 foot pounds @ 33FPS according to the calculator


Mike shooting it with the light load:
2 Bore - 3375gr round ball, 350gr Goex FFg, 1000fps, 24 pound rifle. Calculator says 210 foot pounds @ 24fps.



I'm about 6 inches taller and about 80 pounds heavier than Mike.

So what does all the numbers really tell you, not much concerning the real world in my opinion.

Colin

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
I have no idea what a 100# of "free recoil energy" really means but I know it when I feel it... if the calculator is right.

My .505 spitting 525g bullets at 2350 seems "reasonable". Not 2100fps 458 Win Mag reasonable @ 65#, but "reasonable". 600gs doing 2210fps not so reasonable.

Recoil is such a personal thing. Some can take the abuse while others can't. It isn't a level of your manhood either way. More likely just not enough time behind a big bore sending the heavy bullets down range. While torn retinas and brain trama/concussions a real possibility any one can teach yourself to shoot a big bore, throwing heavy bullets.

But it really annoys me when I hear that 90 to 100# of recoil is trivial.

525g, 2350fps, 100g of powder, 9.5# rifle, 89# of recoil

600g, 2200fps, 95g of powder, 9.5# rifle, 96# of recoil

550g, 2250fps, 80g of powder, 8# rifle, 96# of recoil

500g, 2100fps, 70g of powder, 8.5# rifle, 66# of recoil

400g, 2400fps, 80g of powder, 8.66# rifle, 60# of recoil

Looks like a fun toy....to filter the BS.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Discuss/opinions?

I guess that Biebs, Robgunbuilder, Mississippian, SAFARIKID, GeorgeinPA, Bitterroot and a whole host of others including myself must really twist your panties since we shoot 600 Overkills throwing 900grain bullets out of 8-13lb rifles at 2,200-2,400fps.

Gotta love the fire and smoke of BP ...

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Thanks for the opinion and load data

Big difference for me between 60# of recoil and 100# of recoil. Those that shoot 100# I suspect know it just as well and don't mind admitting it aint all that much fun.

You suspect wrong.

I don't think anyone will argue that recoil tolerance is subjective. Some poeple complain about climbing a few steps, others run stairwells for fun and exercise. Same with just about every sport.

No problem with you sharing your own threshold between fun and not-so-fun.

Not too appreciative of you choosing mine or telling me that I am somehow dishonest for not "admitting" shooting my 600OK is unenjoyable. I've put hundreds of rounds through it and even had video of me posted here doing so.

900gr bullet at 2400fps from an 8# rifle....@ 276#

If you are calling that trivial...you must be fun at parties

Now I feel so belittled

100# will get your attention, certainly .. my personal "i don't want to shoot more than 10 or 15 of these" is about 120 ...

stock design and speed of recoil mean more at 80+ than the sheer amount -- i don't like 577NE double rifles, as they are NOT going to be built for me .. too short LOP almost 100% of the time .. BUT, i don't mind 100#, in a good fitting gun ... for example, i hate shooting 378 weatherby -- braked or not ... VERY fast recoil ...

my 500 jeffe? pretty fun to shoot, most of the time, but it fits me ..

i can and have shoot 20+, perhaps pushing 40, 120#ers in a morning .. rocks you around a bit, and you can't just leap to it .. but i am NOT superman

RDB- Think your man enough to try it? Drop by Las Vegas and I'll hook you up with a .600Ok chucking a 900 gr bullet at 2400fps. . How about a 1000gr bullet going 3000fps/ wanna try that in a 12 GaFH? No problemo. 100ft-lbs is NOTHING!Trust me! We go through boxes full of loads at that level. I have a real nice .600NE Heym, that with a 900gr bullet at just 1950fps will REALLY HURT you though! Dont worry though, I own stock in SUPERGLUE and have a good supply! -Rob

You guys are killing me...nope not man enough for a 900 @ 2400 inside a rifle I would actually carry in the field. Call that 9 maybe 9.5# max. But hey.. thanks for the kind offer

BP, more like avoiding a VW bug rolling your way. Smokeless...more like trying to avoid a jab from Tyson.

I have a revolver chambered in .50 Alaskan that throws a 525 grain bullet at 1,575 fps (actually chronographed). According to the recoil calculator I used, it generates roughly 103 ft-lbs of recoil energy.

It's not so bad if you can keep the front sight out of your forehead......

RDB, ain't no thang.

Seriously. All it takes is a well-designed and well-built rifle, proper technique and practice.

I have a video that my wife took of me shooting a Cape buffalo in Tanzania with my .500 A2 off of shooting sticks.

The load used was 112.5 grains of RL-15 behind a 570 grain Barnes TSX bullet, which produces 2,500 fps in my rifle. Recoil energy is just over 100 ft.-lbs. and recoil velocity is just over 24 fps.

Because my rifle is well-designed and well-built, and because I use the proper technique and have a lot of experience with it, you would think from the video that I was shooting a .30-06.

100# of recoil is about 50# past my tolerance level.

Hats of to the guys that can tolerate it, I prefer not too.

quote:

Missed your question about the Searcy.......Load data is 90-92 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain Hornady. Rifle weighs about 10.5 pounds. And it sure has a wallop. But nothing like Omnivorous_Bob 4 bore that I shot one day, I think his rifle had something like 180 ft pounds of recoil. Perhaps he can chime in. It was certaintly at my limit, probably beyond my limit as I was wearing a coat and still had a black and blue shoulder for 2 weeks after firing it.

I think free recoil numbers are very misleading. A gun with 100# recoils more than one with 50#, but NOT twice as much, because we do everything in our power to prevent the gun from recoiling freely! (proper grip, pulling into the shoulder, etc). Most of these high numbers are dependant on a high recoil velocity, which the gun never reaches because the mass of our upper body retards it's acceleration almost immediately.

That said, it can be a useful tool for comparison. 100# is definitely more severe than 50#! I think recoil velocity is just as important though. A 15 "fps" (in theory) gun is less obnoxious than a allegedly weaker 30 fps rifle. I've got an 8lb 300W that is much more brutal than it has any right to be, while my 17lb 8-bores with 100# loads are heavy but entirely manageable by anyone who can shoot a 30-06, and my practice 4-bore load with 1500gn round balls at 1335fps (~130#) is heavy but not brutal either. And then of course there is fit, fit ,fit, as Jeffeosso said!

The loads Snowwolfe and I shot that day were 2000 grains at about 900fps with 120 grains of wadding over 220gn of BP. I've got no idea what the ft-lb of recoil come out to, but it gets you attention without being too bad. 10 drams with 2000gn is my limit for a practice load (8-10 rounds), any more than that is a 1 shot per day affair.

PS:Randy, I'm going to Birchwood tomorrow morning around 10am with a ton of 8 and 10 bore ammo and a new-to-me harpoon gun to test. I'll bring the 4 with a range of loads if you're interested.

Bob

Gun design is greatest factor in soaking up big
recoil. Guys shooting my 4 bore with 11,500 ft lb loads says
it is great and comfortable. It is 28 lb gun with thumbhole
and thick pad, helped along with minimum drop stock,
makes a great difference.

Colin's 2bore load is about 13,000 ft lbs.And 400 ft lbs recoil.
I shoot 17000 ft lb loads in 4bore just about
as easy as guys here shoot the 11,500 ft lb loads.
That load is 1540 gr at 2200. 300 ft lbs recoil.
Bullet weight is the second biggest factor, as the recoil
math is taking the momentum of the bullet/powder and squaring it,
and heavier slugs have more momentum at same pressure loadings
in a gun even though they may not have the most energy.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

Missed your question about the Searcy.......Load data is 90-92 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain Hornady. Rifle weighs about 10.5 pounds. And it sure has a wallop. But nothing like Omnivorous_Bob 4 bore that I shot one day, I think his rifle had something like 180 ft pounds of recoil. Perhaps he can chime in. It was certaintly at my limit, probably beyond my limit as I was wearing a coat and still had a black and blue shoulder for 2 weeks after firing it.

I think free recoil numbers are very misleading. A gun with 100# recoils more than one with 50#, but NOT twice as much, because we do everything in our power to prevent the gun from recoiling freely! (proper grip, pulling into the shoulder, etc). Most of these high numbers are dependant on a high recoil velocity, which the gun never reaches because the mass of our upper body retards it's acceleration almost immediately.

That said, it can be a useful tool for comparison. 100# is definitely more severe than 50#! I think recoil velocity is just as important though. A 15 "fps" (in theory) gun is less obnoxious than a allegedly weaker 30 fps rifle. I've got an 8lb 300W that is much more brutal than it has any right to be, while my 17lb 8-bores with 100# loads are heavy but entirely manageable by anyone who can shoot a 30-06, and my practice 4-bore load with 1500gn round balls at 1335fps (~130#) is heavy but not brutal either. And then of course there is fit, fit ,fit, as Jeffeosso said!

The loads Snowwolfe and I shot that day were 2000 grains at about 900fps with 120 grains of wadding over 220gn of BP. I've got no idea what the ft-lb of recoil come out to, but it gets you attention without being too bad. 10 drams with 2000gn is my limit for a practice load (8-10 rounds), any more than that is a 1 shot per day affair.

PS:Randy, I'm going to Birchwood tomorrow morning around 10am with a ton of 8 and 10 bore ammo and a new-to-me harpoon gun to test. I'll bring the 4 with a range of loads if you're interested.

Bob

Bob,

Wished I could make it but tomorrow is my only day of work for the week at my booth at Saturday Market selling my art to the tourists. God Bless em They give me the opportunity to buy all my strange rifles

A 570g bullet at 2410 fps out of my 11.25 lb 500 Jeffery is about my limit offhand. 570g at 2300 fps is a lot more fun, don't know why the extra 100 fps makes such a difference but it seems to.



Chuck

I'm quite happy stopping at about 50 pounds.

My 458 win mag is in that range. My .450-3.25 express is a bit more at 55 lbs but is a pleasure to shoot. My 3 lb 13 oz contender carbine 45-70 is excruciating to shoot at 55 lbs. My .45-90 is a real pussycat at 30 lbs, even with steel buttplate and lots of drop to the stock.

Stock design has a lot more to do with it than the recoil energy.

dave

What values of recoil has a 458 Lott at full load? I have a Ceska Safari Magnum in this caliber and rifle not know the weight in pounds.

Oscar.

I am not among the he-men here when it comes to recoil. A Lott in a plain old Ruger No. 1 is more than enough for me, and a three-inch turkey load out of 6-pound H&R 12-gauge is quite beyond my "threshhold." That said, I really agree with Jeffe's observation about recoil velocity. A .416 Rigby is easier on my particular shoulder than an itty-bitty .338 in a light bolt gun.

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
What values of recoil has a 458 Lott at full load? I have a Ceska Safari Magnum in this caliber and rifle not know the weight in pounds.
Oscar.

CZ550 in 458 Lott ...rifle weight 9.4#, 500g bullet, 2250fps, 80g of powder = 70.39# of recoil @ 21.98fps

The problem is you think a mathematical number represents a sudden absolute phenomenon. The truth is recoil force is a kurtotic version of a gaussian distribution of a time scale vs energy curve. A sharp peak of 200ft-lbs in a very short time frame hurts ( i.e the recoil pulse of a high pressure cartridge like a .416 wby) vs a recoil curve that builds slowly to the same peak and ( hurts a hell of alot less) i.e. black powder 8 bores.
Next there is the use of a muzzle brake that can cut recoil by 50%. Yup, 200ft-lbs becomes 100 ft-lbs. If you dont like muzzle brakes, well, then suffer!
Then there is proper stock design and maybe recoil reducers built in. There are some things here we have learned in the last 30 yrs or so!
No, factory guns usually don't include these features and some exhibit absolutely terrible design for a heavy recoiling gun.
Finally, there is KNOWING HOW TO SHOOT A HEAVY RECOILING RIFLE. DID anyone ever REALLY show you how to hold the gun and roll with the recoil? Be Honest now. NO you were not born with this skill. For example, IF your WACKING your trigger finger on the trigger guard your not holding the gun properly.
No one here is a He-man. However, we have studied the above and figured out how to make it all work to our benefit so that we can shoot heavy recoiling rifles. Some folks figure this out for themselves eventually, most just get hurt and decide no one can handle such recoil.
I'm not being condescending, just tired of folks spouting off about what they really dont understand. We are here to help, just ask.
BTW- there are over 75 .600 OK's out in the field right now and no one complains about the recoil.
Two weeks ago a Gun writer visited me to do a story on the .600Ok. He said he got wacked by a .577NE double and couldn't image the .600Ok. He watched me shoot and then I showed him how. He walked away absolutely amazed at how shootable the gun was. It weighs 12lbs and we were shooting loads in the 200ft-lb range.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
What values of recoil has a 458 Lott at full load? I have a Ceska Safari Magnum in this caliber and rifle not know the weight in pounds.
Oscar.

CZ550 in 458 Lott ...rifle weight 9.4#, 500g bullet, 2250fps, 80g of powder = 70.39# of recoil @ 21.98fps

And that I can deduct as much. I have not yet tested the rifle, I want some ammunition reloading because the business in Spain has a price of scandal.

Oscar.

Rob, pm inbound

quote:

we have studied the above and figured out how to make it all work to our benefit so that we can shoot heavy recoiling rifles.
I'm not being condescending, just tired of folks spouting off about what they really dont understand. We are here to help, just ask.

Neither am I being condescending. But don't assume those posting don't under stand how to shoot a hard recoiling rifle. There might well be a difference between adroitly shooting a big bore quickly and accurately and actually enjoying it. That IMO is like women, wine and fine cigars...an acquired taste.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
That IMO is like women, wine and fine cigars...an acquired taste.

I am almost certain that you don't mean to include women amongst the list of which taste need be acquired

Been married long?

It all depends on what you are used to shooting. And.. your build and gun stock design and muzzle brakes and weight and diameter of bullet etc. Lots of things make a difference in felt recoil. Hard to rate with just a ft.lbs of recoil single number.

Add Rhubarb-Strawberry Pie to that list.

Doc, I think he means the transition from girls to women. Think black cocktail dresses VS bluejeans and a tank top...

Heck, some people never make the move from machine-rolled to good hand made and then to Cubans. Those are the people you have to feel sorry for.

Rich
Got 'em all, and a 600 OK under construction by Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Been married long?

My wife has put up with me for the 30 years we have been together. How she has done so, I really don't know.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Add Rhubarb-Strawberry Pie to that list.

Doc, I think he means the transition from girls to women. Think black cocktail dresses VS bluejeans and a tank top...

Heck, some people never make the move from machine-rolled to good hand made and then to Cubans. Those are the people you have to feel sorry for.

Rich
Got 'em all, and a 600 OK under construction by Wayne

Machine rolled - to hand made - to Cubans. We are still talking about women, right? I think I'll go straight to the Cubans - not sure I want a machine-rolled woman.

RDB- So now that its been explained to you and referring to your original post, Yes 90-100lbs of recoil is TRIVIAL. Sorry if that offends you but its the TRUTH!
My guess is that if a .505 Gibbs at ANY velocity its capable of, hurts you, then your doing something wrong. Can you correct it yourself, before you develop the flinch of the century, well maybe and maybe not Don't just assume you know how to shoot a real heavy kicker because you can yank the trigger and it goes bang-Rob

Funny guys here. Last I checked I shoot my 505 off hand, standing on my own two feet, with express sights into a couple of inches consistantly if I work at it. Into a couple of inches, with 4 rds in under 6 sec, at 50 yards. Not surprizing my 458 WM I can shoot faster and into a group half that size at the same distance.

Use to do better 15 years ago but my eyes were better then. Eyes now have good days and bad days. But you can only hit as fast as you can actually see. If I wanted to do better than that I'd use optics. But I don't find much challenge there after shooting a lot of 1000 yard stuff with small bores bitd.

Having spent some time in the ring I know what a TBI is. Takes a lot less than you might think. So yes, given enough recoil I do get hurt physically even if it is only a mild headache or even just a bit wobbly after a prolonged bout of big bore shooting.

Thanks for your concern. Everyone gets an opinion here.

quote:

"If you dont like muzzle brakes, well, then suffer!"

I have no plans to own a rifle with a muzzle brake, a recoil reducer or a recoil pad over 3/4" thick. I'd either learn how to shoot it or not own it. I don't care to use the typical gimicks to help me shoot a big bore well.

A "proper" bolt gun for me has a barrel, some wood and a set of irons. YMMV of course.

IMO a real gun..I like them light, 9.5# max, 9 flat is better.


While interesting nothing I would consider other than a "big boy's" toy.


Designed (by Robo I assume) to be the biggest thing to fit in a CZ? Designing anything to be the "biggest" might be a fun goal but hard to think of any place it would be practical other than Jurasic Park or just simple bragging rights. Correct me if I am wrong because I don't know of anyone that can carry a 14# rifle in the field or would for DG. Your credibility just went to zip with me.

quote:

"The 600 Overkill has the ability to push a 900 grain bullet at more than 2400 f.p.s. if the shooter can withstand the recoil and maintain his grip on the gun. At that level of power, as the bullet spins down the barrel, the rifle is torqued in the opposite direction, tending to twist the forearm of the rifle out of the shooter's hand."

quote:

600 Overkill 158.0 grain IMR7828 F215 900 grain Woodleigh FMJ 2150 f.p.s. Controllable recoil when fired in a 14 pound rifle with 3 mercury recoil reducers and a muzzle brake.
" 175 grain H414 " " 2400 f.p.s. The forearm is difficult to hold onto at this velocity due to torque created by the bullet spinning down the bore.

LMAO and trying to be really gentle here..

My dick gets in the way now, so I don't I need it any bigger

http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBoreCompendium/

quote:

"750 grain solid moving at 2250 feet per second. The recoil is violent and always surprising. I can shoot 10-14 shots of..in a day, but only if I take Tylenol before going to the shooting range."

MTBI is serious. Worth a look if you don't know what it is or a basic understanding of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
RDB- Think your man enough to try it? Drop by Las Vegas and I'll hook you up with a .600Ok chucking a 900 gr bullet at 2400fps. . How about a 1000gr bullet going 3000fps/ wanna try that in a 12 GaFH? No problemo. 100ft-lbs is NOTHING!Trust me! We go through boxes full of loads at that level. I have a real nice .600NE Heym, that with a 900gr bullet at just 1950fps will REALLY HURT you though! Dont worry though, I own stock in SUPERGLUE and have a good supply! -Rob

Yeah, right. Maybe nothing for you, but I'm not putting my skinny ass behined either one of those.

Pain thresholds and all that. When it stops being fun and starts being masochism, I'll pass.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
I have no plans to own a rifle with a muzzle brake, a recoil reducer or a recoil pad over 3/4" thick. I'd either learn how to shoot it or not own it. I don't care to use the typical gimicks to help me shoot a big bore well.

A "proper" bolt gun for me has a barrel, some wood and a set of irons. YMMV of course.
.

Oh, come on, ,stud, why bother with any recoil pad, then? I guess that .25" makes all the difference ....

RDB, you are wandering all over the landscape.

What is your point?

One hundred ft.-lbs. of recoil energy can be managed very well in a hunting rifle that a normal man can carry all day.

You can believe it or not, but your belief or disbelief won't change reality.