quote:

I guess that .25" makes all the difference ....

Nope, just don't like the look of all the rubber. Don't find it aesthetically apealing on a expensive rifle.

quote:

What is your point?

Simple...you (or most any one) can shoot all kinds of things that no one would carry in the field and actually hunt with. .50 BMGs are a classic example.

Wandering? Looks to me like lots of "wandering" going on by comments trying to convince everyone other wise.

Let's keep it simple and talk about 100# of recoil in a rifle YOU are personally capable of carrying on 10/15 miles of ele track.

Assuming you are actually capable of walking 10 miles in a morning's hunt.

Men have hunted with 16# rifles but even they admit to not carry it themselves the majority of time. Experienced hunters will not intentionally carry more than 10 to 10.5 #, and less if it is possible.

How about we honestly discuss a 100# of recoil in hunting rifles instead of crew served weapons?

RDB, I really don't get your style - or your insistence that what's been done by yours truly and many other people is impossible.

Do you seriously doubt that a normal man can carry a rifle in excess of ten or ten and half pounds while hunting?

Do you seriously doubt that a normal man can use a rifle that generates 100 ft.-lbs. of recoil energy effectively in the hunting fields?

Where do you get such ideas?

I have an 11.5 lb. .500 A-Square that I have carried more miles across two African countries on three long dangerous game safaris than I care to recount.

And for the record, I carry my rifle at all times while hunting.

I have used my .500 A2 - so far - to kill elephant, Cape buffalo and hippo.

It kills them with great speed and authority.

My .500 A2 has become my "go to" rifle for such game, in preference to any lesser caliber that I have used previously, including .375, .416 and .458 calibers.

And I'm not the only one who has done this kind of thing. Nor am I any kind of superman.

Again, you may believe it or not, but it's a fact. Just do a search here and you will find my hunting reports.

It's one thing to say that something or other is not for you. That's fine. Different strokes and all that.

But it's quite another to insist, in an obnoxious manner, as you have done, that it's impossible for anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
How about we honestly discuss a 100# of recoil in hunting rifles instead of crew served weapons?

OK
The list of folk I mentioned earlier have done exactly that with their 600 Overkills. For me - well, last September 11.5lb 600 Overkill, no muzzle brake and the only one carrying it was me. Logged 12-20 miles of scouting/hiking/stalking per day with it loaded and carried "safari-style" i.e. no shoulder strap. Took my Cape buffalo with it.

Following that, I carried my scoped Weatherby Safari Custom .416 WBY - also 11.5lbs and no myzzle brake for Kudu, Blue Wildebeest and Impala. Same deal in terms of mileage walking/hiking/stalking.

My dad with whom I was with on this trip-of-a-lifetime used his 585AHR. He carried his though did use a shoulder strap.

We each have our own thresholds of capabilities and enjoyment.

Mike just gave you his experiences which are far more extensive than mine but with essentially the same conclusions. We are but a few of the many who do what we say but make no presumption that you should do it that way too.

BTW, if you are comparing traumatic brain injury from direct high-impact experiences to shooting any shoulder-fired firearm, you are not shooting properly.

Am finding most of this thread very informative as I have never mastered heavy recoiling rifles. 375's seem to be about the biggest I can shoot often at the range without experiencing a black and blue shoulder and a puffy cheek.
Even with my 450 NE which was built for me it hurts. Have mastered the ability not to flinch but could use some suggestions on shooting techniques so I don't get the piss knocked out of me.
In the process of designing a portable stand up rest so hopefully this will help.
My hat is off to you guys who can shoot these brusiers without pain.
Perhaps it is all relative because an 06 seems like child play anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

How about we honestly discuss a 100# of recoil in hunting rifles instead of crew served weapons?

my heaviest gun weighs 10.75#, has 116# of recoil, and i have hunted it, though only 6-7 miles, in the texas heat. my 500 jeffe is less than 9.5, and my 500 AR, plastic stock adn scoped, in right at 9 .. my 470Ar is 9.5, scoped .. etc etc etc ... i am a routine complainer that people build them to heavy.

this thread seems to be more about your self imposed limitations rather than other people's experience.

as for elephant hunting? this is bog bores, not african hunting ... if your entire scenerio is about elephant hunting, you'll find a better audience 4th thread down from the top.

good for you, if you've elephant hunted .. i am disintersted in shooting them, just don't care for it.. but if you like it, well, good on ya.

the .25 difference in pad.. so what? plastic stocks? hey, great, if you like em.. ppush feeds and belted rounds? has no bearing on anything important, to me.. but i am a bit more open minded, i guess

I'll repeat my opening comment:

"Recoil is such a personal thing. Some can take the abuse while others can't. It isn't a level of your manhood either way..... But it really annoys me when I hear that 90 to 100# of recoil is trivial."

Didn't say it was impossible or unheard of. Just said 100# of recoil wasn't "trivial." Obviously a few of you find 200# trivial. I actually thought (naive obviously) more would agree. Just thought a honest conversation on recoil would be interesting.

If I read that right...a Critical Care Medicine MD is telling us heavy recoiling rifles pose no risk of brain injury? Seriously is that a professional opinion backed by a MD?

For anyone that can not only carry a 11.5# rifle all day while walking 20 miles before shooting it with 200# of recoil...nothing left to say here but the obvious...honestly.. I'm impressed.

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
I'll repeat my opening comment:

But it really annoys me when I hear that 90 to 100# of recoil is trivial."

the phrase "but" is a negator in the english language .. you are annoyed by hearing it, some of us are annoyed by people not dealing with it... if one is fair, so is the other

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

Didn't say it was impossible or unheard of. Just said 100# of recoil wasn't "trivial."

hiking 10 miles in 100deg isn't trival, to even the hardened .. but this is streatching your original statement, aint it? now trying to twist it enough that you can be right... fine, you are right...happy?

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
I actually thought (naive obviously) more would agree.

you are new here, and don't understand that this particular forum is fueled by recoil junkies

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

Just thought a honest conversation on recoil would be interesting.

you got that, just didn't like it

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

If I read that right...a Critical Care Medicine MD is telling us heavy recoiling rifles pose no risk of brain injury?

you are over simplifying the statement to amke yourself look righter ... to those willing to train for it, no .. to someone off the street trying to man up, just like running 10 miles, you can endanger yourself.. aint the same statement

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:

For anyone that can not only carry a 11.5# 600 OK all day while walking 20 miles before shooting it with 200# of recoil...nothing left to say here but the obvious...

that you admir their dedication to their sport?

Reaching again now aren't we?

Fun read on big bores:

http://bearmountainquest.com/S...ng-on-the-big-bores/

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Reaching again now aren't we?

Yes, you keep changing the context of what you are asking and saying... I am merely pointing out your actions .. it took zero effort on my part, so I assuming the reaching is on your part ..

I own the CZ 458 Lott. When shooting 500gr solids. I get 74 ft.lbs of recoil. But I don't feel it. I fought the way the rifle fits my shoulder had something to do with it also. I mean it fits like a glove and not a loose one.

I think as RDB gets some big bore experience he will begin to learn what we have all been trying to get across to him. Recoil is subjective to the individuals experiences and perception. People ask me all the time about the recoil of my little B&Ms, much as RDB did, I am not a good person to ask, I shoot most weeks 200 plus rounds of big bore a week doing test work and what have you, most all of it from the bench since it is test work. Of course my B&Ms in no way produce the amount of ft lbs of recoil the big dogs do, but I have found even them to be very workable.

A few months ago I had the great privilege to work with a rifle chambered in Robs 600 OK. Doing test work, terminals, we were shooting from the bench of course. Now we were shooting 900s at a mere 2000-2100 fps, not full potential 2400 fps, but recoil was not punishing at all, lot's of muzzle flip, but recoil not bad at all. If I had a chance to shoot it more I promise I would have learned to control the muzzle flip better. A couple of weeks ago we were testing Sam's double in 577, 700-750s at 1900-2050 fps, absolutely zero issues of recoil, it weighs 13 lbs, it's very easy to control. I have a 510 Wells built on a big heavy Ruger action, 11 lbs. Normally I run 570s-600s at 2250-2300 fps, I find it just dandy, it's so big, but I can control my own 500 MDM Winchester M70 better, even at it's 8.5 lbs, because it fits me better than the big ruger. This is where fit of the rifles come in at controlling recoil. In the field under fire, these guns are even easier to control than they are on the range as one is concentrating on the mission at hand!

Again, subjective to the experiences and perception of the shooter. I find most everyone some intimidated by just the 50 B&M, but almost always after that first shot they look at me and say "Gosh, that was not as bad as I thought it would be" and they continue on without any problems at all.

Michael

505 Gibbs, 600gn @ 2280fps, or 525gn @2500fps, both have near enough the the same recoil numbers. (around 101 foot pounds of free recoil energy). I shoot both. On the range I notice the recoil, but having learned how to shoot this big bore it doesn't hurt, or bruise, or give me a headache. When I first got it, and before I learned the correct technique, it did hurt, and bruise. Now I can shoot 30 or 40 in a day no problem. Recently I took the Gibbs hunting and nailed 3 decent size pigs with it. One standing and two running at ranges from 25 yards to about 40 yards. I got the 3 shots off in less than 10 seconds (probably around 6 seconds, but no-one was timing it), and for all the recoil I felt it may as well have been a 308 Win.

quote:

.......... Recoil is subjective to the individuals experiences and perception ..........

I agree with that. I wouldn't want to experience any more recoil than that produced by my 458 Lott.

James

RDB- Do you comprehend ANYTHING from all the posts here? You have a insulting style for someone with NO understanding of Big Bores and undoubtably no real hunting experience with dangerous game. You act like a RANGE QUEEN. When I called you out to actually SHOOT a real Big Bore you showed your yellow side! Whats the matter can't handle it really and dont want anyone to know? This way you can keep pretending your something your not. Come-on Big Mouth lets see you shoot off something other than your mouth. You dont have to worry about brain damage from recoil as my guess is its already happened.
Your Dismissed!
BTW- Guys I'm starting to smell TROLL!

Troll, Gay or Yellow? You must create a wonderful working environment. Love to be your corp att.

quote:

I took the Gibbs hunting and nailed 3 decent size pigs with it. One standing and two running at ranges from 25 yards to about 40 yards. I got the 3 shots off in less than 10 seconds

Darn good shooting with any caliber, congrads.

From Dane-one-man-shoppe-guy, right? Dude, dale carnagy didn't do much for you, right?

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:

BTW- Guys I'm starting to smell TROLL!

Rob, you might be right.



RDB - I have fired guns about #100 and I'll be honest, while it's definately not like giving yourself a high five it can be managed.

Would I like to shoot guns with over #100 all day long, not really, but over #100 for a short period of time doesn't bother me either.

Just move on RDB and accept there are people out there harden to shooting guns over that number. It's basic 101 stuff, black and white

There are guys here that do this kind of stuff regularly for a living, past time and for fun and have been doing so for years. The "BIG BORE" threads are where people who shoot these guns regularly "hang out" so be honest what did you really expect......? Realistically. And it's what you got..2 pages of

"go get yourself knotted...., you don't know what your talking about"........

and to be honest in the "BIG BORE" section of this forum you shouldn't really expect any less.

This is their "home" so to speak, you have waltzed in here basically making a mockory of their sport, enjoyment, pastime and jobs and you are demanding a fair hearing and want respect, you are questioning their integrity with the odd back handed remark and want LOVE..... it isn't going to happen you won't get it

Surely you have recognised by now you have picked the wrong section of this forum to make this point. I think you would get more acceptance re the tolerance of #100 rifles on "rimfire central"

regards
S&F

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
From Dane-one-man-shoppe-guy, right? Dude, dale carnagy didn't do much for you, right?

Say, I was thinking, Dane tends to speak widely and loadly, about things he really doesn't know about.

Say, Dane -- before you run your mouth again -- you have how many greater than 4500ft/lb guns OTHER than your own single wildcat? No offense, really, just trying to understand your broad experience in the matter, to talk with such authority ?

You don't even have to currently own them, you could have had them a couple months and moved them along, after reloading them, learning them, and understanding the ins and outs of them?

And, the ultimate question -- How many more than your 1 have you built? Not a peepsqueak .375 .. let's start with 458 winmag and move up from there, okay?

no one questions your skill as a pistol smith -- just want to hear a bit about your "creds" as a bigbore shooter ... "we" aren't impressed with a single bigbore wildcat as your basis for experience.

I do expect you've never even touched a 500 jeffe or a true 505 gibbs .. i could be wrong, but i doubt it

AR must surely be the only place on planet Earth where men of good will become genuinely angry at one another while discussing physics.

RDB- What a pathetic response. You would not last 5 minutes in my organization. You have to be qualified, know what your doing and/or be willing to learn. I think Your incapable of either. From Jefe's post above your qualifications in Big Bores are, how do we say this, UNIMPRESSIVE?
Guys- I'm smelling TROLL big time. Unless this guy is incredibly STUPID, we are being sucked in. Notice the interest in .500 Jeffery's,.505 Gibbs, Recoil, trying to anger the group and making idiotic claims etc. we have seen this pattern of behaviour before. I'm calling TROLL on this guy!
I can't wait for the "I'm not a TROLL" rebuttal. Please make it at least entertaining and novel. We have heard a fair amount of Troll drooling and sniveling before, so remember you'll be graded on the quality and ingenuity of your response. -Rob

quote:

you'll be graded on the quality and ingenuity of your response. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by RDB:
Troll, Gay or Yellow? You must create a wonderful working environment. Love to be your corp att.

That's It? This is your response? Lame, pathetic, inept and dull! Like Rob says, you come, you insult, you insinuate, obviously out of your league and inexperienced, found no one to bow down to your ego, and now this is it? I thought surely you could do better than that!

I suppose RDB you are busted on this one.

Sad part is I am sure you don't realize it. Proper manly response would be, "hey guys, I really am a dumbass on this one, I am sorry that I have been offensive, and I really am inexperienced and just want to learn more from those with experiences in this arena"

No one knows everything about everything, I find out more and more that I am damn ignorant on lot's of things, more things than I have proper knowledge of for sure! There is a big difference between ignorant and stupid, we are all ignorant about different things and like JWP says, you can fix ignorant, you can't fix stupid!

Michael

I don't think he's a troll, rob and MM, i just think he's a really good pistolsmith that's gotten in over his head while talking bigbores. He doesn't realize that we will neither be awed by a middlin bigbore, nor by bluster to prove a point.

there's a difference..i think Dane is probably the goods on pistol smithing -- heck, i don't understand the 1911, past field stripping and minor accurizing ... though he's not nearly as deep an expert in bigbores ... happens .. i won't begin to argue 1911s with him ...



heh (with humor) you've never been around phyiscists, then, have you? heh

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
AR must surely be the only place on planet Earth where men of good will become genuinely angry at one another while discussing physics.

Jeffe

Well, maybe you are right! I suppose we will see. Maybe he is just used to folks being impressed with his overall knowledge of whatever. But he is lost here for sure.

I can tell you this, I love a 1911 45 acp, just as I am by Winchester M70, I am the same with a 1911! Older Colts--pre 80s and Kimbers! Can't see how it can be any better than that! Last count I had 35 + and I lost count. If it's not a 1911, well it's just something else I reckon! So maybe there is hope for him, as always the ball is in his court. You know me, pretty easy to get along with until I am insulted.

M

URL=http://img594.imageshack.us/i/600recub.jpg/] [/URL]

Messing around with my 600 OK...

Zim PH shooting test...

6 shots un-braked...

Flubbed two shots on the twenty yard target and they landed right outside the 8” bull…

Without scope or brake rifle weighs 11 pounds...

A 900 grain bullet at 2000 fps over 150 grains of powder is about 150 ft-lbs of recoil...?

Not a walk in the park but doable…

MM,
I believe he's decided to go post elsewhere on AR, rather than address these questions -- which is a resounding answer, in and of itself.

Jeffe

I suspect you are correct. I learned a long time ago, no shame in admitting ignorance! Just stupid not to do so. Holy cow, I am learning all the time, there is so much many of you know that is way beyond my pay grade. Always room to learn. Now I do have to admit, there are some things I choose to be ignorant of, and remain that way by choice! In fact, more than some things, a hell of a lot of things!

LOL

Michael

Guys- We are all learning all the time and thats what makes this so much fun. Hell, It took me 15 years and the building of probably 20 DGR's before I figured out the .600OK. A lot of folks on this site helped me with the project too and I don't forget that! All of you have made significant contributions and have earned my respect through your accomplishments.

RDB- either is a TROLL or is fast learning the ART of being a TROLL and I'm calling him out on it! Sorry but I just dont suffer fools well!

I actually hate the "gunsmith" high and mighty attitude and as most of you know I have more than enough experience with the innards of everything from revolvers to a GE minigun. No Brownells, order by part number and wait a year" great "Gunsmith" is going to insult me and get away with it unscathed. Most" great pistolsmiths" dont know jack shit about machining and never will and their work shows it. If I want a good 1911 I'll just buy a Wilson Combat period. Who needs this guy?
The proper response in this situation is "I'm sorry and apologize to the group." Then you actually CHANGE your behaviour!
Wanna bet we never hear those words? I usually give a guy the benefit of the doubt, but my spidey sense detects a TROLL or real JERK here.-Rob

Not wanting to be flamed here, and this is a serious question, but for all of you who can easily handle a lot of recoil, why do you have rifles that weigh from 10-12 lbs? I remember one person here who had a 6.5 or so pound 500 Jeffrey. And what about muzzle breaks. They are for reducing felt recoil, so why put up with the extra noise? Again, not being sarcastic, just wondering why not carry 7 lbs or so all day in the hot sun as opposed to 10+ lbs?

in my case, i don't like brakes.. and 7 or 9# .. that's generally a matter of good pad and scope ... and most rifles listed at 7 are 7 empty, no rounds, sling, scopes or bases.

and when you go much lighter, you get wicked fast recoil ... and brakes don't help speed

lack of "Bwana" Dane's response speechs volumes .. figures .. and hear i thought he was man enough to share. typical

Jeffe & Rob

Looks like Bwana Dane has left the building! Yep, speaks for itself I suppose!

Rob---

Cheers for making an excellent call--sparing us from further BS!

Maybe we can return to productive matters at hand!

M

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Faulkner:
Not wanting to be flamed here, and this is a serious question, but for all of you who can easily handle a lot of recoil, why do you have rifles that weigh from 10-12 lbs? I remember one person here who had a 6.5 or so pound 500 Jeffrey. And what about muzzle breaks. They are for reducing felt recoil, so why put up with the extra noise? Again, not being sarcastic, just wondering why not carry 7 lbs or so all day in the hot sun as opposed to 10+ lbs?


My 505 Gibbs weighs 11 lb, it has no muzzle brake or any other recoil reducer, but has a good recoil pad (Pachmayr decellerator), and I find it easy enough to carry round all day with a good sling. Firing the Gibbs in the open field is not too hard on the hearing, so I prefer to hunt without hearing protection so I can hear my own footsteps and whatever sounds the game makes. You couldn't do this with a muzzle braked rifle. I feel that the the trade off of added weight is not a big problem.

I'm no expert, but from my experience alot depends on the type of rifle. For me the worst is a Sako .375, it is just unpleasant.
I enjoy my .458 wm M70, even from the bench it's fine. .416 rigby BRNO, 470NE double is also fine. Being left handed no rifle has ever fitted me properly, it either works for you or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Am finding most of this thread very informative as I have never mastered heavy recoiling rifles. 375's seem to be about the biggest I can shoot often at the range without experiencing a black and blue shoulder and a puffy cheek.
Even with my 450 NE which was built for me it hurts. Have mastered the ability not to flinch but could use some suggestions on shooting techniques so I don't get the piss knocked out of me.
In the process of designing a portable stand up rest so hopefully this will help.
My hat is off to you guys who can shoot these brusiers without pain.
Perhaps it is all relative because an 06 seems like child play anymore.

100 # of free recoil may be trivial to some of you on here but for the vast majority of shooters that level of recoil is anything but trivial.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
100 # of free recoil may be trivial to some of you on here but for the vast majority of shooters that level of recoil is anything but trivial.

465H&H

the same vast majority (which none of us actually KNOW) doesn't shoot bigbores, and thinks a 338winmag is a big gun.

In other words -- you are correct, but i don't see how it applies

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
100 # of free recoil may be trivial to some of you on here but for the vast majority of shooters that level of recoil is anything but trivial.

465H&H

the same vast majority (which none of us actually KNOW) doesn't shoot bigbores, and thinks a 338winmag is a big gun.

In other words -- you are correct, but i don't see how it applies

It is an answer to the original post on this thread. The poster said that such a statement annoyed him. For someone to say that it is trivial, and it could be read as Hey Man! Your a wennie if you can't handle 100 lbs of recoil. That could be annoying.

465H&H

i don't think even *I* have stated 100 is trival.. i have said 50 is

quote:

Originally posted by AlanFaulkner:
Not wanting to be flamed here, and this is a serious question, but for all of you who can easily handle a lot of recoil, why do you have rifles that weigh from 10-12 lbs? I remember one person here who had a 6.5 or so pound 500 Jeffrey. And what about muzzle breaks. They are for reducing felt recoil, so why put up with the extra noise? Again, not being sarcastic, just wondering why not carry 7 lbs or so all day in the hot sun as opposed to 10+ lbs?

The short answer is that 2-3 pounds of rifle weight can reduce recoil energy by as much as one third.

And 105 ft.-lbs. of recoil energy is substantially easier to handle than 150.

I am most assuredly NOT a body builder - although I have good upper body strength - and I can walk all day long carrying an 11-12 lb. rifle under typical African safari conditions.

Not an issue.

Although, if I were hunting those elusive mountain elephant, it might be . . .

Michael- In all seriousness, I'm with you on rifle weight. As Jeffe and others know I live to hunt with a little 8.3lb double Rifle in .458 Lott. Why because I will and can deal with any amount of recoil for the two shoots I'll take at game vs 15 miles carrying it. Like Safari kid my next .600ok will be a 8lb gun. Yup it will kick like he'll but with my adrenaline up in a close encounter with a Mbogo I'll just suck it up. Unlike to carry my own gun. lOADED CHAMBER of course.-Rob