The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 416 rem or 458 win mag ?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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first i would like to say thank-you for the replys in ref to cz firearms.i went back to the sport store again ref the cz rifles. they have two cals. one is a 416 rem the other 458 win. both have nice wood and appear to be put together well.same price and now the question , which cal to choose? i read the post of august 7 ref 458 win or 458 lott. what about the 416 rem? since i retired (if you can call it that) the big boss asked me not to over do my welcome pick one maybe. | ||
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I may be wrong but I believe cz is offered in .416 Rigby not rem mag. on a side note I recently purchased a cz in .458 win, the action is a little rough but shoots good and feeds 350gr and 510 gr loads perfectly. I also use to own a mod 70 in .416 rem I still kick myself for selling it. Both are great cartridges the best option would be to try and shoot both if you can arrange it and then decide. Just my thoughts. Like Dirk said, there are a lot of people on this site with more knowledge . good luck It's funny one of my first posts was to ask the same question ax meat is murder..... tasty,tasty murder | |||
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The only 416 Rem I have seen from CZ was from the Custom Shop. I wonder if they took my idea of having 5 down?  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I really love the .416 Rem caliber and have had great luck with it... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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The guys at Safari Arms make a pretty good argument that the .458 Win Mag can do everything the .416 Rem Mag can do - and then some. [see "Cartridge Spotlights"] Proper loading and bullet selection could make it the perfect "all around" heavy rifle! | |||
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i have both ... in m70 winchesters...the .416 will make a trip to africa with next yr, the .458 won't...i like them both..my .416 is controlled feed, the .458 isn't...recoil is about the same...flip a coin, you won't be dissappointed with either... go big or go home ........ DSC-- Life Member NRA--Life member DRSS--9.3x74 r Chapuis | |||
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I have to tell you from experience the .416 Remington mag is the better cartridge. I dropped a 1600lbs. 40 inch buff with one shot at 20 yards, not to mention an 1800lbs. eland...one shot at 130 yards. The 416 is the cartridge Winchester should have made when they designed the .458 Win mag. The Lott is a different story, but you didn't ask that question! | |||
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The 416 rem mag is more versatile. Go with that. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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It really depends on what you are going to hunt with it. As an all-around African rifle, the .416 Rem is hard to beat. But if you are just going to use it on the big-stuff like ele and buff and carry a different rifle like a .375 for smaller stuff, the .458 would be the way to go. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Unless you're going to put the time in to really master the lott, you'll likely find it simply has too much recoil. I've had two of them, and finally realized I don't do enough shooting to master it, nor do I want to tote a rifle heavy enough to make it pleasant to shoot. There is a very noteable increase in recoil from the 416 rem to the 458 lott, most folks can shoot a 416 and ignore the recoil. Very few folks can ignore the recoil of the 458 lott. I never flinched with either lott, nor did either one hurt me. But, the recoil was such that it required alot of concentration to fire it. I can't think of an animal I'd hesitate to take with a 416. It has more than enough power for most animals, enough for all, and not enough recoil to compromise it's shootability. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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same argument can be made for the 400 whelen and 416 taylor. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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You may like the ballistics better on the 416 if you are going to shoot over 100 yds, the 458 velocity falls off pretty quick in comparison. If I were to do plains game I would pick the 416, buff or elephan pick the 458. If you want both, the 416. John | |||
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Not true! Loaded with the proper bullets at the correct velocity, the .458 Winchester Magnum is just as useful as a general, all purpose heavy rifle, as is the .416 Remington Magnum. The trajectories are comparable out to 250 yards, which should be considered the maximum practical range for calibers of this size. The .458 Winchester Magnum has the distinct advantage of over 10% greater bullet diameter, which translates into much greater stopping power for large and dangerous game. See ballistic coparison below. 458 Winchester Magnum vs .416 Remington Magnum Muzzle 100 yards 150 yards 200 yards 250 yards 458 Win Mag 450 gr. 2300 fps - 5373 ft-lbs 2131 fps - 4550 ft-lbs 2051 fps - 4213 ft-lbs 1971 fps - 3996 ft-lbs 1895 fps - 3598 ft-lbs 416 Rem Mag 400 gr. 2400 fps - 5116 ft-lbs 2245 fps - 4487 ft-lbs 2171 fps - 4196 ft-lbs 2096 fps - 3918 ft-lbs 2025 fps - 3656 ft-lbs Trajectory .458 / .416 -1.5" / -1.5" +1.37" / +1.2" 0/0 -3.43" / -3.1" -9.1" / -8.0" Muzzle 100 yards 150 yards 200 yards 250 yards 458 Win Mag 500 gr. 2200 fps - 5373 ft-lbs 2048 fps - 4663 ft-lbs 1975 fps - 4336 ft-lbs 1902 fps - 4028 ft-lbs 1833 fps - 3739 ft-lbs 416 Rem Mag 400 gr. 2400 fps - 5116 ft-lbs 2245 fps - 4487 ft-lbs 2171 fps - 4196 ft-lbs 2096 fps - 3918 ft-lbs 2025 fps - 3656 ft-lbs Trajectory .458 / .416 -1.5" / -1.5" +1.5" / +1.2" 0/0 -3.7" / -3.1" -9.9" / -8.0" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I'd choose the 416, I guess just because I've been itching to get one. I also thought that the CZs were Rigby not Rem, did they start making 416 Rem too, is it a special run or something? I agree with ledvm though, with spitzer or semi-spitzer bullets in the 350-450g range the 458 is just as versitile as the 416. I like 400 and 450 grain Swift A frames. The 458 is also more attractive to some folks because you have a huge variety of 45-70 bullets that work very well on smaller size game if you want to shoot reduced loads. Almost all 416 bullets are designed for full power loads. | |||
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Isn't 2200 fps a little optimistic with a 500 gr. 458 bullet? The same for 2300 fps with a 450 gr. bullet? The 458 is going to have more recoil than a 416 but maybe not that most would notice. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will, I believe these loads quoted by ledvm are those offered by Safari Arms in their production ammo. I'm loading the 450 Triple Shock with Accurate2230 and getting mid 2200's at 70 grains, barely above the starting load, so 2300 should be easy! At low 2200's this is a fairly tame loading in my BRNO ZKK602. It is easier to shoot than the .375H&H at 2500fps! I've not tried the 500gr Triple shock yet though. Les | |||
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I would buy the .416 Rigby or Remington, whichever it is, over the .458WM. I have a ZKK-602 in .416 Rem, it was a .375 H&H that was bored out by the original owner. I do not believe that Brno builds a .416 Rem. The various .416 calibers are the true do-it-all calibers. Virtually the same trajectory as the .375 H&H, which makes them suitable for plains game and they will handle all the dangerous game as well. Load the excellent 400gr Nosler Partition for everything except elephant. If you want a heavier rifle to complement the .416, then go to the .458 Lott; .470 NE; .470 Capstick; .500 NE, .505 Gibbs, .500 Jeffrey etc... | |||
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That's a good point. There are no "cheap" 416 bullets to use for practice. With a 458, you can use all kinds of stuff. _____________________________________________________ No safe queens! | |||
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You can go with cast bullets if you want cheap in 416. Yes, there are cheap jacketed bullets in 458, but not in the 500 gr variety. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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If the rifle was to be mainly used for big game than I would prefer a 416. But if the rifle was to be a play thing then I would prefer a 458 Win or 458 Lott. Mike | |||
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I'd personally prefer both ... and drop the .375 from the battery completely in favor of a 9,3 for plains game. Have had good luck with cast bullets in the .458 AR at pretty stout velocities. I make a 435 gr FPGC that works very well ... has shot a ragged hole 3 shot 50 yard group at over 2000 fps. Good practice and plinking bullet. Also use cast bullets in the 9,3 calibers and .375s. (Rick Rose reports a .65" 50 yard group with his 9,3x82 using Blue Dot.) Have not had great luck with casdt bullets in the .416 ... tend to use Speer Mag-Tips for plinking with that one. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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Buy both; u cant have enough big bores! seriously, though, i would vote for the 416 rigby (cz doesnt list a 416 rem). more versatile less recoil, and unless u are stopping charges from pachyderms, equally or more effective. ask tony sanchez arino. and when you think 416 is too 'light' theres always the option to upgrade to 470 or 500 mbogo on the same action/stock. What can you do with a Lott/ 458 African xpress? not much else. | |||
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 Mike | |||
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Yes I was quoting Safari Arms!!! But I to load 450 NF's ahead of AA 2230 and easily get 2250 with out maxing the load. I choose to just stay at my 2250 load. I could get 2300 safely I think. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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buy the 458 scrap the barrell and make a 416 taylor then you kinda have both VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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This not true either according to the AR Recoil Observations scale. 416 REM 10 rifle weight 400 bullet weight 19.3 recoil velocity 57.9 recoil energy 1117.5 recoil factor 458 W MAG 10 500 18.6 53.6 997.0 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Lane, I did the calcs just the other day. Whatever you are using ain't correct!! For a 10 lb. rifle, each using 75 grs. of powder, 500/2150 fps, 400 gr/2400 fps,.... 458: 58 ft-lb recoil energy, 19 fps recoil vel. 416: 51 ft-lb recoil energy, 18 fps recoil vel. Not to be arguing but just trying to get the math right. Can also use this to get the same answers. http://huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/ Cheers. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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There are the Speer 350 gr 416s which are relatively economical and scads of different weight ofs cast 416s for up to 2000-2200 fps. And if you want to try something different you can bump 41 Mag jacketed pistol bullets to .416 in a bump die. Not nearly as convenient as .458 but not that hard to do. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Hi Bill, I am just quoting SAEEDS recoil observation table on this web-site http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html and I am definitely NOT trying to be argumentative. Just trying to figure out the truth! From my own shoulder, I cannot tell the difference between the 2. I think they both kick like hell!!! But I am a pu$$y. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Maybe Saeed was using an abacus or something. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I chose a 416, Rigby that is. It was the right caliber for me. | |||
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Hello, Go the 458Win Mag., open it up to the Lott, then you have all the rifle you will need from plinking (Rem. 405 bulk bullet, meant for 45/70)to Woodleigh heavy hitters. Keep in mind that with the Lott, you can "download" and shoot the humble pie 458 Win Mag as well and as mentioned by others, loads of bullets out there from cast to cheap Remmy bullets mentioned above to the quality serious Woodleigh type ones. For a big bore, that Lott pretty well covers the water front. JMHO | |||
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Ditto, well said. Mike | |||
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i would buy the 458 and have it reamed to accept 458 lotts. my 550 in 458 lott will easily push a 400 grain woodlegh or remington to 2550 fps the extra velocity will easily make it have flatter than a 416 w/400gr not by much though. plus with 458s you have an enormus selection of bullet weights. i load everything from 300gr to 720gr. you cant beat getting 100 remington 405 gr sp for 15 bucks. | |||
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Or just leave it a .458 Win Mag and do the same! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I'll second this quote, "Or just leave it alone and do the same!" JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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With you retired and looking to pick one big bore I recommend the .416 because I think it will be more vesatile for you and have less felt recoil. | |||
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