Is there a recoil reduction expert out there that has hard facts on what can reduce felt recoil?

I know about mercury inserts, pads, muzzle brakes and all. But is there someone out there that really knows about this?

The word "felt" is subjective. You can't attach "facts" to it. Buy a .223

Bitter,
I have a couple. Great guns for sure. I handle the .375 H&H ok, but the .416 is tough. "Felt" is subjective but many on this forum have explored the topic more than I. I hope to tap into the wisdom of the AR members.

The shotgun guys are the ones who know recoil. Look up Bruce Buck who writes the "technoid" column for Shotgun Report as well as many other venues.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Bitter,
I have a couple. Great guns for sure. I handle the .375 H&H ok, but the .416 is tough. "Felt" is subjective but many on this forum have explored the topic more than I. I hope to tap into the wisdom of the AR members.

If the 416 bothers you, shoot a bunch of full house 458 Lotts or bigger. When you drop back down to the 416, it will seem much tamer. The mind resets based on exposure to recoil.

Less powder.
Less bullet weight.
75% rule in doubles, will work in singles.
Cal

Ross, I'm certainly no expert, by IMHO you left off the most important thing, rifle weight!

More is better, as far as recoil reduction goes.

That's why my .500 A-Square weighs 11.5 lbs.

Then there's rifle construction. Bitterroot is too modest, as AHR knows this subject very well.

You need a straight buttstock with little or no drop at comb or heel, and with a wide "footprint" at the back end. Also, the top of the comb should be a gentle curve, and not a sharp edge.

This stock design pushes the recoil straight back into and over a fairly wide area of the shoulder, instead of "digging" it back into the shoulder and upwards off of the shoulder and sharply into the face.

And one or two mercury tubes and a good recoil pad are also essential, IMHO.

Anyway, whatever can be done has been thought of, so it's really just a matter of putting it all together.

And BTW, muzzle brakes work incredibly well, but I don't like them for hunting. Too damned noisy.

My two cents.

I've only one single experience but in my case having a custom composite stock built and installing a small reducer in the foreend as well as a reducer in the butt significantly reduced the felt recoil. I doubt I spent more than $1500.00.

Today, if shot side by side the .458 win mag seems to kick less as constructed above than my 375H&H with a HS Precision stock.

My $0.02.

1. Make sure the rifle is of a "proper" weight for the caliber and not too light.

2. Use a slip on recoil pad that is wide to disperse the recoil. The best I have found are the Shooter's Friend recoil pads:

http://www.cabelas.com/product...BSearch-All+Products

3. If you reload, use faster powders that require less powder, e.g., RL15 is a good choice in doubles versus H4831, although RL15 will require fillers.

4. Use longer barrels. The shorter the barrel the more muzzle blast, moving the muzzle blast further from your face helps reduce "felt" recoil.

5. Shoot frequently. Recoil is an "acquired taste". The more you shoot the big bores, the more comfortable you will become.

6. Never shoot off the bench, always shoot standing up with sticks or in some way where your body can "roll" with the recoil.

7. Make sure the stock fits you and is not too short or too long.

Some great suggestions here. I also had a .416 that beat the snot out of me. Winchester and I just didn't get along. Even with a muzzle break I couldn't wait to get rid of that one. Bought the same caliber in a Remington, one of the old custom shop models with a 24" heavy barrel. Could be that I was getting used to the recoil but perceived recoil is far less than with the Winchester. I also bought a .458 wm and Lott. After the .470, the Lott and the .458, the .416 is very comfortable. I also need more stock length due to my height and usually end up removing factory recoil pads and putting on a thicker, softer Limbsaver or Kick eeze. I think they help. Can't tell any difference by using a mercury recoil reducer. Have tried that on several guns and personally believe that filling the hole that a merc reducer would go in with lead shot works better. More weight equals less felt recoil.

Not much to add beyond what Mike Robinson and Mike Jines have noted - - for their comments as they well cover considerations for felt recoil - particularly regarding stock shape and fit for your body shape.

My only contribution will be for you to consider either an EvoShield or a Past Shield for bench work and practice, as well as get-togethers for multiple shooter/multiple rifle/multiple caliber scenarios. Also have a slip-on pad with the velcro enclosure at hand to use to lengthen a a short LOP to meet your LOP needs.

dogcat,

Sorry about the smart-ass remark of buying a .223, but it is kinda true. Less bullet weight or less velocity will give less recoil.

You were asking for "hard facts" about felt recoil, so if you're asking if it can be measured with an instrument, well no it can't. You can strap a rifle to an accelerometer or just do the math, and they will tell you what recoil energy will be, but will they "feel your pain" like Clinton said.

All of the advice given above is right-on and will help. I like what tiggertate says and it's true. Shoot a 458 Lott for a while and your 416 will be a pussycat. I probably shoot more big bores on a regular basis than most on this forum, and I just don't really notice the difference in recoil anymore between the calibers. Maybe I'm just brain dead after so much shooting. I have a 600, a 458, and a 375 to shoot today. I'll do the 375 last and it will feel like a pop-gun.

The best thing you can do with your 416 is shoot alot. Pretty soon you will become numb like me.

Mike Jines has a good list and some other posters seems to have covered it.

I will highlight that especially in big bores,
gun fit and stock shape have a big bearing on felt recoil, either in the shoulder or in the face (for a badly fitting stock).

.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:
Is there a recoil reduction expert out there that has hard facts on what can reduce felt recoil?

I know about mercury inserts, pads, muzzle brakes and all. But is there someone out there that really knows about this?

dogcat,the only thing that will reduce felt recoil is rest,and I don`t mean the kind you rest your rifle on.

I love shooting big bores and have gotten pretty immune to recoil now. However, everyone has his or her limit. i just don't like muzzle brakes. I have already lost enough of my hearing so what's a guy to do if you want to reduce recoil. You only have three options. First, increase the weight of the gun. That works great at the range but for me anyway, once a gun gets much over 10.5 pounds, it's just too heavy to carry all day.

The second option is a reduction in caliber. For most people a .375 (flanged or belted) is a gun they can learn to shoot well. Same with a nice, light handy 9,3 (rimmed or rimless). These guns have been taking game all over the world for more than a century and with today's superb bullets they are even more effective.

The third option is to select a cartridge with a lighter/slower bullet. Two examples. If you are buying a 40 caliber double and your are sensitive to recoil, pick the 450/400 over the 500/.416. While the latter is a better performer, it is going to generate more recoil because you are pushing your 400-410 grain bullet 200-300 feet faster but either one will do the job. Now, some people might think my second example is not a fair comparison but I do. I have a Browning BLR in 450 Marlin. With my hand loads, I can push a 400 grain BBW#13, Woodleigh Hydro, or Barnes Buster out of it's little 20 inch barrel at around 1900 fps. I don't think it's an elephant gun but for anything less at close range it will do all that my 450 Dakota will do because of these superb bullets and it is much lighter and handier to carry. Just my two cents.

OTOH, using my technique you can exceed your limit with bad consequences. I tried to conquer my 550 Magnum with full house loads and as a result, I flinched with everthing I own for about a year. Now I drag it out to the range so other people can decide for themselves if their 300 Winchester really kicks or not. Cruel, but amusing.

One thing to add after seeing tiggergates post.

If you shoot your big bores and don't own a .22 rimfire, buy a .22 bolt action and after you have finished shooting the big guns, shoot a packet of .22 ammo off at small targets, either sitting or standing unsupported.

1. It WILL improve your shooting over time,
especially off hand as you really focus on keeping the same point of aim. (I have seen someone's off hand groups shrink over time to be the same size as the ammo packet !)

2. It WILL help your brain / memory of recoil
as it is the last thing your brain remembers
and if you have had a bad day at the range with the big bores and developed a flinch, it will help get rid of it.

3. If you have an on going flinch problem,
it will help you cure it.

Hope that helps.

Dogcat,

Lots of really good advice given here.

For me, it's a matter of practice and time on the trigger. The more you do it, the easier it becomes. But that doesn't mean take the big hammer to the range and burn up 40 or 50 rounds. It means frequent trips where you shoot 8 or 10 rounds tops with the big gun. Then always finish with something light like a 22LR.

Good luck taming the beast. They really are fun to shoot once you acclimate yourself to them.

I thought I had already posted this but
I put a Limbsaver recoil pad on one of my big bores and it made the world of difference.

.

Thanks to all for the good ideas based on experience.

I have shot a lot of .375 H&H and 9.3 and have no problem with either. I have shot many thousands of 12 gauge rounds at skeet with a pump shotgun. I have noticed that you can get used to recoil and not feel it as much.

At age 58 and seeing affects from a football (American version) career, my right shoulder does not like the beating I have been giving it. I have shot a lot of practice rounds in the .416 with a removeable muzzle brake. I am adding the mercury reducers as well. I would not hunt with the brake as you never seem to notice recoil when shooting at something big.

Again, thanks for the ideas as I will try them.

I'm not a recoil expert as recoil never ever worried me so I've never put much thought into it. As a matter of fact I class the .375H&H, 458W as no kickers.

I used to shoot regularly .375 H&H 300gr/2620fps one handed with fully stretched straight arm into the bottoms of full 375ml. beer cans at 10 yards away. Just to piss off the whingers complaining about their .270W, 30-06 kicking too hard.

The time behind the trigger with full loads is the best and the cheapest way to get used to the recoil. If the recoil is really bothering you do not exceed your tolerance number of shots in one session. If you can fire only 3-5 shots, so be it. Next time it may be or may be not better but again stop before you reach too far into your brain fear of recoil memory bank.

Pyzda

Like others that have said here, rifle weight and stock design will help reduce to recoil substantially.
Get a heavy barrel contour and along with less recoil you will have a better pointing rifle.

The only way I can shoot the big boys is with a 1.5 oz trigger along with a muzzle brake. I have a 416--Lott--Capstick--and a 500 A Square all of them are 16 lbs+ and they still kick. I just finished a 500 weatherby at 15 lbs and it is ugly to shoot with the 500 grain bullets. 223 don't kick big bores do. Ross

The reason I said rest will reduce felt recoil is because after exercise or fatigue,especially people over 40,the heart will take longer to recover and while it does it constricts blood flow to the core and away from the extremities.You need the blood in your arms and the strength to shoot the rifle.If there is no blood in the arms and shoulder area you can get injured or feel discomfort more easily,IMO.This is the reason you can shoot the same rifle with the same loads week after week and swear that it beat the hell out of you on certain days and felt like nothing on others.

quote:

Originally posted by ross10:
The only way I can shoot the big boys is with a 1.5 oz trigger along with a muzzle brake. I have a 416--Lott--Capstick--and a 500 A Square all of them are 16 lbs+ and they still kick. I just finished a 500 weatherby at 15 lbs and it is ugly to shoot with the 500 grain bullets. 223 don't kick big bores do. Ross

The weight wouldn't worry me, but I would never have 1.5 oz trigger on a big bore with recoil above 100fp/25fps range. In my opinion trigger that light is a road to disaster. Off the bench, target objects shooting is very different to the hunting.

I can tell you from my first hand personal experience, that if rifle is not fully shouldered 100fp/25fps recoil can and will hurt you. It will hurt even more if the rifle doesn't fit.

It happen to me once with my 27"barrel 8.5 pounds .460Wea. Ruger at that time the load was 2700+fps Hornady FMJ with recoil in the 150fp/33fps?? range. I was in hurry to take a quick shot and I accidentally touched the trigger before I even felt the contact of the butt.

The recoilling rifle gained a good run and slammed into my shoulder biceps area, the muzzle was pointing 110 degrees up (behind me), the trigger guard hit my middle finger so hard that I had a lump lasting several months. My shoulder biceps area was black blue for 2 weeks and I had also some internal damage in the shoulder as I couldn't lift the arm to more than a horizontal position it was painful and it was rattling inside.

I was brought up tough and just like my father if I can move I would never go to the doctor, so I've never found what the damage was. It took about two months for the shoulder to be back to normal.

I can tell you if something like this would happen to someone who is already recoil sensitive and new to the big bore it would take him forever to overcome the fear of recoil.

Pyzda

My 500 Jeffery trigger is set at just under 3 lbs which is perfect for me.

Great points have been made and some is repitition. I shoot extreme long range sometimes competition with up to 60 rounds of 350gr .374/Gibbs 505 at 3300 fps and will shoot 20-30 rounds from my Gibbs 505 at a time. Two things I find useful are keep your cheek tight on the stock and don't start lifting your head. Ride the recoil. Secondly when practicing use ear plugs and head phones - less noise seems to make recoil feel less. Also my guns are heavy, the 375 is straight stocked, and I find a muzzle brake for practice is effective, shooting off sticks or off hand is much easier, and a good wide recoil pad is essential. The vest insert pads are also effective but make one for off hand a different one for prone if you plan to shoot prone.

Great points

Excellent post LR3, I admire your gumption with the 505 Gibbs, I'll stick with it's baby brother, the 500 Jeffery.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Excellent post LR3, I admire your gumption with the 505 Gibbs, I'll stick with it's baby brother, the 500 Jeffery.

Baby Brother?? 505 Gibbs = 525gr at 2350fps; 500 Jeffery = 535gr at 2440fps. From the Barnes Reloading Manual # 4. Other sources being very similar.

The Gibbs' case may be larger, but the Jeffery has a larger bullet (slightly in weight and diameter) and clearly is the heavier hitter of the two. It would be similar to calling the 30/06 the baby brother of the 308Win.

Wait till you put 600gn bullets in both of them,
it makes a difference to the felt recoil !

quote:

Originally posted by Bitterroot:


The best thing you can do with your 416 is shoot alot. Pretty soon you will become numb like me.

It might sound trite but I believe this statement. That is what happened to me over time as I stepped up from a .375 to a hot load .416 Rigby, to my 450 NE.

None seem to bother me anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Wait till you put 600gn bullets in both of them,
it makes a difference to the felt recoil !

Looking at some data on the web, I'm seeing the 600gr Woodleigh PP at 2165fps in the 505 Gibbs and the Woodleigh 600gr PP at 2486fps in the Jeffery. Even more of a tip of the hat toward the Jeffery in terms of power. Am I missing something here as all the data I've seen and read on the two shows the Jeffery to be the more powerful round.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Wait till you put 600gn bullets in both of them,
it makes a difference to the felt recoil !

Looking at some data on the web, I'm seeing the 600gr Woodleigh PP at 2165fps in the 505 Gibbs and the Woodleigh 600gr PP at 2486fps in the Jeffery. Even more of a tip of the hat toward the Jeffery in terms of power. Am I missing something here as all the data I've seen and read on the two shows the Jeffery to be the more powerful round.

If everything else is equal (brass strength/pressure) the bigger the case volume, the more performance is possible. The other limitations that have big influence are the strength of the action (bolt thrust) and the barrel chamber wall thickness.

Pyzda

I've shot guns of both calibers previously but have never owned either, nor loaded for either. I'm just going off what I see printed in the loading manuals for each and so far, I haven't seen the Gibbs loaded hotter than the Jeffery. I'll be glad to learn something new however if someone points me in the right direction.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Excellent post LR3, I admire your gumption with the 505 Gibbs, I'll stick with it's baby brother, the 500 Jeffery.

Baby Brother?? 505 Gibbs = 525gr at 2350fps; 500 Jeffery = 535gr at 2440fps. From the Barnes Reloading Manual # 4. Other sources being very similar.

The Gibbs' case may be larger, but the Jeffery has a larger bullet (slightly in weight and diameter) and clearly is the heavier hitter of the two. It would be similar to calling the 30/06 the baby brother of the 308Win.

Hi Todd, you are right, in standard factory loadings the 500 Jeffery has more performance, period. With handloads in a CZ 550 for example, the case and action are to the same pressure standards, so even if they are both loaded to the same velocity with a 600g bullet, the Gibbs is using more powder = more recoil ... I think.

I went with the 500 Jeffery for two primary reasons: The CZ bolt diameter compared to the 505 case head dimensions scared me off of a bit, also I found loads getting a 570g bullet at 2300 fps with only 103g of powder in "Any Shot You Want" the loads in the Gibbs required 140g of powder. I really did want that big Gibbs case though ... It just looks so damn impressive. I suffered through the feeding issues with the Jeffery, but it's sweet now.

Thanks Chuck but I ve had some hankering for a .500 Jeffery myself. Great rifle you have.

Chuck,

One thing is for certain with these two. They both have power to spare.

They are both good.

The 505 Gibbs is superb.

People seem to load up the Jeffrey but
not so much the Gibbs, not sure why.

Just an observation.

The Jeffrey at 2300 - 2400 can be a bit brutal !

.