Strictly talking about a hunting rifle for Africa, what do you think is a good weight for a 416 Remington and 375 H&H?

I am thinking a 22 inch #5 contour for both.

Goal is no muzzle brake, and about a 9.5 pound rifle for the 375 and about half a pound more for the 416.

knock 2LB off that.. 7-7.5 for a 375, and 8-8.5 for a 416 ... these are NOT big kicking rifles - LOP is FAR more important than weight, in these heavy mediums.

my 550 express is 10.75 ... it should have been 10, with weight a bit MORE forward .. 735gr at 2130

I have a titanium shoulder, too many years in the military.

I'll add a pound to keep all my bits together.

I like a 8.5 lb. naked for either, that should come to about 9.5 lbs with scope and loaded. Wood density can make some difference but not enough to make much difference. A little weight helps for snap shooting and off hand, and that's important on a DG rifle IMO..To light and they tend to bounce around when your out of breath from a run..Just my observations, but too heavy gets heavier after a hot day in the sun and 5 to 15 mile trek.

My 375/404, with a Leupold 2.5-8 scope and 3 rounds of ammo is just 9 pounds.

I have been hunting with it for so many years, sometimes walking up to 35 kilometers a day in the heat in Zimbabwe or Tanzania.

I don't like to do what some hunters do, by letting a tracker carry their rifles.

I carry it myself, and I am 5 foot 6 and weigh 130 pounds.

It has no muzzle brake.

My last 416 Remington was a custom on a CZ 550 with a duplicate of the factory barrel but in stainless. With the scope and 6 rounds in it . it weighed around 11 lbs . It was easy to shoot well . It had a McGowan muzzle brake on it . Barrel was 22"+the brake. It made head shots on deer easy from kneeling position.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
I have a titanium shoulder, too many years in the military.

I'll add a pound to keep all my bits together.

I hear you --- i had an AC5 injury ... and was a YEAR off from shooting after surgery ... in fact, i hunted with a heavy barreled 223, shooting left ...

however, I stand by my recommendation --

I have a 1913 H&H 375H&H Belted Mag, weighs 8lb 2oz, fits me very well and is nice to shoot. Open sights only, magnum mauser action.

I guess 9lb all up if scoped?

Felt recoil will also depend on the type of recoil pad and the bearing area of it. My 404 Mauser weighs in at 9lb scoped with one up 3 down. I fitted a Pacmayr decelerator but it takes the small sized pad and has to be ground to fit so is a small bearing area on your shoulder. Not a problem when standing/hunting but only just tolerable for me off the bench. With the original ventilated pad it had fitted even heavy cast loads would see bruising on my shoulder after a few down range.

Hi,

Of the main factors that affect recoil, projectile weight has the greatest effect, then velocity, then powder charge and lastly rifle weight.
If you go to the Real Guns Web page and look for the calculator for recoil it gives a very clear picture, with reducing projectile weight giving the greatest reduction in recoil.
So finding a projectile that will still do the job and weighs less is a good start.
If you can't use a lighter projectile for the task at hand, then,
look for a powder that has a lighter charge weight yet still gives a velocity in the range you want, look at the reloading tables for the 375 H&H, between the fastest powder and the slowest powder with any given projectile there is quite a difference, yet velocity is very similar, no animal can pick the difference between 200 fps.
Rifle weight gives the least improvement in reducing recoil, adding half a pound in weight may balance the rifle better but doesn't reduce recoil by as much as the other 2 factors.

From Real guns calculator
375 H&H
300 gn projectile
2506 fps
67gn H4895 powder
10lbs rifle
Muzzle velocity 2506 fps (Barnes manual)
Gives a recoil figure of 36 ft/lbs of recoil.
Reduce the projectile to a 270 gn and recoil drops to 31 ft/lbs. 16%
Increase powder charge by 8 gns (67 of H4895 at 2506 fps increasing too 75 gn Vit N540 2655 fps Banes Manual)Increases recoil to 39 ft/lbs. 8% increase.
Reduce the velocity to 2300 fps from 2506 fps and recoil drops to 32 ft/lbs. 12.5%
Add half a pound to the rifle and recoil drops to 34 ft/lbs. 5.8%

All the data aside people feel recoil differently, and an important factor in how you feel recoil is how well the rifle fits you.

For me the most important thing I did to my 375 was to have the LOP and pitch fitted to me, this made the rifle recoil straight back and allowed me to place the butt in the correct place on my shoulder.
The second most important thing I did was to make the rifle balance between my hands and closer to my body in the shooting position. I had to add some weight in the butt to get this balance right for me.
The Real Guns Calculators are very useful tools.
I don't have a muzzle brake.
In our Big Game Rifle comps, we shoot many rounds in a day, so recoil tolerance is important.
Group 1 is typically a 375 H&H
Group 2 is typically a 416 Rem
Group 3 is typically a 458 Lott
Stopper is typically a 500 or bigger.

Conditioning is another factor, shoot as often as you can, runners don't get better unless they run a lot.

What I have found is the more I shoot, the better I handle the recoil and the lighter I can make my rifles.

Using the load data above and reducing your rifle to 7.5lbs increases recoil to 51 ft/lbs that's a 41% increase in recoil over a 10 lbs rifle shooting the same load.
Or
Keep the 7.5 lbs rifle.
Use 64.5 gn H4895.
a 270 Barnes
2548 fps
and get 40 ft/lbs of recoil


Not sure if that was what you were looking for but I hope it helps

The problem is keeping everything in my shoulder entact.

I'll mess with it and see what I come up with.

In your shoes, which I have been close. Sever double whiplash injury that left me unable to shoot even a 9 lb 300 Win Mag without getting a major headache up to 2 years after. I went to using muzzle brakes. . They work great at diminishing recoil. . Some guys get all weird about muzzle brakes. But your the one that has to shoot your rifle. Some guys feel its a negative advertisement on their manliness. .
I was never.much on gettin the shit kicked outa me. So I like muzzle brakes. I've been hunting and shooting with some rifles that have muzzle brakes since 1988 and I can still hear sufficiently at 55 to do anything I want. I've damaged my hearing more in the industries I've worked in than I have with muzzle brakes.
With all the new in the ear electronic hearing protection. Its a no brainer. Ruin a rebuilt shoulder or ut a good muzzle brake on your big bore.


And I think it goes without saying that Saeed is Tough!!

Thanks Cold Trigger Finger,

Agreed, Saeed is tougher than woodpecker lips.

I agree with jeffeosso totally but you have an injury to which only you can answer the question.

Cheers,
Mark.

I would think slowing down a bit would be a partial solution. These rounds will kill well even at 2220fps

I have added a Ken Rucker "Bump Buster" hydraulic reducer to my CZ 550 375 H&H (and my Tikka 9.3x62). They come in regular and magnum flavors. I installed the magnums. You can dial in the amount of recoil reduction and LOP. Very effective.

My Model 70 in 375 H&H as delivered from the factory weighed 9 Lbs. The Leupold 2.5-8X36mm scope weighs 11.5 ounces. Add in the Talley mounts and rings and It's just over 10 Lbs. without ammo.

It feels fine to me.

Thanks Frank, I have some ideas. We'll see how it goes.

I guess there is not a definitive answer on this question regarding weight. Too many parameters to consider, already mentioned above. You have to try it out yourself, preferrable shoot different 375's abd 416's, if possible (not the most commen guns around, at least not on my shooting range) try some different guns.

My 375 H&H is 9.9 lbs, perhaps on the heavy side - but very comfortable to shoot / steady to hold when shooting off-hand. I also have a rifle in 9.3x74R which is just above 8 lbs, which I think is on the light side. A joy to carry, of course.

Our Rem XCR II in 375 weighs 7 1/4 lbs with a 2-8x Leupold on it sans sling and unloaded. I know it's not a CRF, but it shoots great is corrosion resistant and the stock just seems to soak up recoil. It kicks less than the 9 lb CZ 550 in 375 H&H I used to own (that rifle has grown up to be an 11.25 lb 500 Jeffery).

I had a pre 64 Win 70 rebarreled with a #5 contour Douglas in 416 Rem. I sold it to a member here a couple of years ago. Well anyway with the original pre 64 Win 70 Monte Carlo stock, it was pure misery to shoot, one shot OK, 2d shot hurt, third shot a waste as you were flinching. I put it in a dense California Claro stock of the classic style with small early supergrade/European style oval cheekpiece.

The gun was tamed! You could shoot 20 shots off of the bench almost like it was a 30-06.

Also I have shot guns with irons and then mounted a scope and they kicked much less. It wasn't the added weight as much as it was the geometry change in butt and head placement caused by the scope. In other words stock geometry has a lot to do with recoil in both of these situations.

Recoil is a mindset. I have not shot some of the ultra bores that other members here have but I have yet to shoot a rifle that made me say...nope never again. I have a CZ550 in 416 Rigby shooting 350 grainers at 2812 fps average. I think that rifle weighs around 10 lbs and it's just to heavy IMO. My Win M70 in 416 Rem has a B&C stock and weighs about 9 lbs. It's still to heavy IMO. I can easily shoot 40 rounds through either rifle per range session with these calibers and have no ill effects.

I have 4 titanium screws and 2 connecting rods in my lower back but I decided long ago that nothing was going to stop me from shooting the calibers I really wanted. I have been around guys that had 308's with muzzle breaks and they still complain about the awful recoil. I just have to shake my head and walk away. My advice is pick the weight you feel comfortable carrying around all day then build a rifle to match that weight. If your mindset is right then weight really won't be a factor.

I don't have my spine fused yet, I am sure it will happen in the next few years.

The shoulder is another animal, and it gets the recoil directly.

All I can do is see what I can find.

I have done a lot of hunting with my Sako 375H&H(Early FN Mauser). It weighs just a bit over 8.5 pounds with scope. Loaded with sling it is probably about 9 pounds. For me this is the perfect weight for a 375H&H. It is a joy to carry, easy to shoot offhand and recoil is not a problem.

When you move up to the true "heavy hitters" such as the 416 Rem, 416 Rigby and the 458 win mag 10 pounds all in is about right.

You could go lighter but recoil will be rough.

This is just my opinion. Many guys have lighter big bores but to shoot them well you have to be pretty recoil tolerant(IMO).

BTW, how do you like Lone Pine? I almost moved to that area but I ended up snagging a job here in big wonderful Wyoming.

My P64 M70 weighs9lb 6oz with a VX-3 2.5-8.
Here it has the 1.5-5 on it.

Pussycat to shoot.
9 1/2 lbs is about as heavy as I want to carry all day long.

Here's our 7 1/4 lb XCR II. With ammo and sling still under 8 lbs. Got rid of the ugly nickel plated rings and Bubba Buddy ammo carrier, went to CeraKoted Talley QRs. Can't do much about the ugly hunter ...

My Blaser R93 Safaris in 416 Rem Mag and 375 H&H are both 10.5 Pounds with Scopes. In the 416 its fine, as it does have a bit more bite on both ends, the 375 however, was too heavy in my opinion, especially if you use it more as a plains game rifle, and start carrying it in the hills after Kudu. When I got my Ruger No.1 in 450/400 which clocks the scale at 8.5 Pounds with scope, I realised how unnecessary all that extra weight in a 375 is, so I sold it. I wouldn't want a 375 with scope weighing more than 9 Pounds. I'd suggest you get a Lead Sled for load development to help with your shoulder. When hunting, you should hopefully only use one shot, and most probably in a more upright standing position.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Here's our 7 1/4 lb XCR II. With ammo and sling still under 8 lbs. Got rid of the ugly nickel plated rings and Bubba Buddy ammo carrier, went to CeraKoted Talley QRs. Can't do much about the ugly hunter ...

OOOH XCR?

I finally got to handle one of those last night. Nice rifle!

I can't find one in 375, and I have a ton of 375 H&H and 375 Ultra ammo. I'd take either one or both if the price was right.

Thanks I like it a lot, gave it to my youngest son. He's gotten a wild boar and a nice black bear with it so far.

Many years back, one of our customers, a PH, was injured in a car accident and could not tolerate the recoil of heavy bullets in his 375 or 450 Rigby. We developed a 200gr bullet for the 375 and a 315gr HV for the 450 Rigby. He has long since healed and never went back to the heavier bullets he was using before the accident. To reduce recoil, go to a lower weight bullet without giving up in penetration and killing ability.

Thank you Gerard!!

Every rifle that I shoot frequently, wears a muzzle brake, even my 224 Hotrod. I do not like recoil and, when doing extended testing with a cartridge and have to borrow a rifle, I search around until I find an owner who wants a recoil brake fitted in return for lending the rifle.

I supply and fit the brake, do the testing and then reblue the rifle before it is returned. I have yet to find a man who is not delighted with the returned rifle.

quote:

When you move up to the true "heavy hitters" such as the 416 Rem, 416 Rigby and the 458 win mag 10 pounds all in is about right.You could go lighter but recoil will be rough.This is just my opinion. Many guys have lighter big bores but to shoot them well you have to be pretty recoil tolerant(IMO).

+1

Well I had a new ultra light arms in 416 Remington for about seven years. It was my go to rifle. With scope sling and ammo it was still under 7.5lbs. With irons and no sling it was 6.25lbs.
My previous 416 was over 9lbs.
Hands down the easiest shooting of the two was the ultra light.
A lighter object takes less energy to stop once in motion. Moves quicker at first, stops quicker. Less felt recoil, quicker recovery for second shots, a joy to carry. Hate heavy rifles now. Been spoiled.
This is from hundreds of rounds fired they identical caliber rifles vastly different weights. One did have a custom LOP which helps.

I've just read an interesting write-up on a buffalo hunt in Mozambique by a very petite lady.


http://www.barnesbullets.com/h...ffalo-in-mozambique/

Her length-of-pull on a 416RM was 12.5".

If properly balanced, I would think that the rifle was pretty light. Check out her load. My wife is 5'6", 110 pounds, with a 13" LOP. Maybe we should consider shorter? Yet this lady in the article looks even more petite.

Enjoy the article.

I'm 5'8" and my lop is about 12 3/4". A gun that fits is an amazing feeling!

The initial steps to determine whether a gun fits or not are:

1. Stand in a shooting attitude with the rifle not shouldered and pointing down.
2. Close your eyes.
3. Bring the rifle to your shoulder and "sight" it with your eyes closed.
4. Open your eyes.
5. If the rifle fits, you should have a clear scope picture or, if it is not scoped, the sights should line up.

This is the free part.

If the rifle does not fit, the part where time/money are spent, starts.

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
Well I had a new ultra light arms in 416 Remington for about seven years. It was my go to rifle. With scope sling and ammo it was still under 7.5lbs. With irons and no sling it was 6.25lbs.
My previous 416 was over 9lbs.
Hands down the easiest shooting of the two was the ultra light.
A lighter object takes less energy to stop once in motion. Moves quicker at first, stops quicker. Less felt recoil, quicker recovery for second shots, a joy to carry. Hate heavy rifles now. Been spoiled.
This is from hundreds of rounds fired they identical caliber rifles vastly different weights. One did have a custom LOP which helps.

I know lots of folks favor Model 70s, Mausers and other CRF actions, but that XCR II stock is amazing (though very ugly). I have a CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery that I love, but it weighs 11.25 lbs unloaded without scope or sling. I'm half tempted to buy an XCR II stock and try to fit it in. As a bennie, I could win the ugliest rifle contest.

I don't know if it is what is going to be handy, vogue, etc. for my upcoming Africa trip, but my 375 H&H is a pre 64 Winchester model 70.

The gun all ready to go with scope, slings etc. is 10.57 pounds empty and 10.91 loaded.

The gun was reblued and shortened a bit when I bought it. I had Ahlman's in MN install two steel recoil crossbolts and a Pachmayr Decelerator pad with a length of pull of 13-3/8".

My advice is worth every penny you pay for it
LOP, the correct cast,and comb height, in other words gun fit are far more important than weight in reducing, felt recoil.

The stock material can help reduce felt recoil. My rem 700 SPS in 375H&H at 2 lb lighter than my CZ550 in same calibre is a delight to shoot. way quicker back on target too.