Aye, the new North Fork FPS nose profile is an improvement.
Being made of copper, it is also denser than the brass CEB BBW #13 FN solid, which nose shape is similar,
and is that copper harder than the GSC FN copper solid, of old simple truncated cone shape (similar to old North Fork shape)?

New North Fork FPS copper versus CEB DGBR brass :
Both have similar overall shape and nose profile.
Both are shorter for weight whether copper or brass, and with CG relatively forward, versus the old shape.
Improved stability due to multiple factors.

CEB is less likely to deform: "Free-machining C360 brass, heat-treated to half-hard?"
But North Fork copper seems very hard: "Heat-treated to full-hard?"
Just guessing.
It seemed to deform less than the GSC FN did in my old IronWaterBoardBuffalo tests.


Close horse race here for terminal performance, between North Fork and CEB solids.

I would think that in the B&M and Super Short cartridges, with short boxes and case capacity limitations,
the shorter length of copper might be a factor
tipping the balance toward copper North Fork for top performance.

Both are top performers in the MIB tests, eh?
Same "best nose shape."

I will have no case capacity, magazine length, or pressure issues with the 49-10.
I expect to have COL of about 3.3" to 3.4",
pressures of usual 60,000 psi ballpark,
and velocities of +2600 fps with the 450-grainer, and +2800 fps with 375-grainer,
North Fork solids.
Ditto the CEB 430-grain MTH/VLD copper and 360-grain "ballistic-Talon-tipped" brass expanding bullets except for longer COL, still sub 3.6"
Ditto the North Fork 450 & 375-grain CPES copper bullets, except for about 0.060" longer COL than the FPS.

I wonder if the North Fork CPES copper is softer than the FPS copper?
Or is it the same hardness and the expansion is due that much to the shallow cup in nose?

I also want to stay away from any brass solids that could be loaded in a 500 S&W 50 AE, etc., handgun.
Laws may vary state to state on that.
So, that's all I have to say about that.
49-10

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Heavens to Betsy Gerard.

No need to take your wanker out and piss in your customer's coffee cups, and tell them to go away.

It is acceptable these days to approach customers in a more gentle and cordial manner. I, like many others am interested in all the factors that affect bullet fit. In the absence of knowledge, we have to make our best guess of it.

If the specific scientific information is proprietary, that is fine; just say so.

Perhaps you might say: Customers, just send us your exact bore and groove diameters, and here is how you should measure those dimensions for our purposes. With that exact information GSC guarantees you will receive correct performance from our geschossen/bullets. Thank you for your interest, and than you for you patronage.

I believe an inventor and a craftsman have the right to be grumpy, short and rude; in their own shop with their own staff. The staff can vote with their feet, if they wish.

An adult, and a businessman does not have that luxury, unless of course, he wishes to chase all his customers away.

quote:

If the way GSC makes bullets does not suit your thinking, do not order GSC bullets.

Wow, thin skinned, uncivil and no words that I ever thought you would say Gerard. I am taken aback (a little bit, anyway).

He chased me off a long time ago. I'll shoot rocks before ordering from GSC. Sorry, but I don't do business with folks that treat their customers this way.

Well I will say this.

The New North Fork FP Solids SCARE ME.

IF they do Penetrate Deeper than the Original NF Solids, then they are a danger to the Planet.

I have shot some game with the Original NF FP, [and Cup Point bullets] in my 450 No2.

The old ones would penetrate almost to the Center of the Earth. The new ones might shoot through it...

That is one hole I would not want to have to fill.

Todd,
Funny thing is, sometimes, when I differ in opinion with someone and speak my mind, I get this 'I will never be a GSC customer' reaction. Such opinions are often expressed on open forum and a large number of them are simply an attempt at economic blackmail. A way to make me shut up and for my contrary opinion to go away. For every blackmail attempt, I probably get three or four emails and PMs that say 'good stuff, stick to your guns'. Maybe that is why I have learned to speak my mind, rather than shut up, morally corrupt.

If I agreed with a contrary opinion to (maybe) gain some business, two things would be a fact: I would be morally corrupt and both the (maybe potential) customer and I would be wrong. What use is that?

Another funny thing is your double standard. It is not uncommon, I have seen it many times. Other manufacturers and testers actually swear at those who hold contrary opinion. They call them idiots and bozos and tell them to f### off, and not a word is said. In fact, it is regarded as funny, in some cases. I say: "If the way GSC makes bullets does not suit your thinking, do not order GSC bullets." and it is the end of the world?

I design and build bullets based on testing that began in 1992. The GSC bullet that did so well in Saeed's penetration testing is all of 15 years old. Most of the designs that people have messed around with in the last number of years are old hat and probably evaluated and discarded long ago. So forgive me for getting testy when people try to second guess me. Then again, I have only been at bullet design and manufacture for 20 years, full time, what would I know.

RIP

quote:

I would think that in the B&M and Super Short cartridges, with short boxes and case capacity limitations,
the shorter length of copper might be a factor
tipping the balance toward copper North Fork for top performance

I agree. One can achieve a bit more velocity with the North Fork. Couple of other things, you might know, might not. Remember back a bit ago when we were working with Nose Projection? We found that the longer nose projection gave a significant amount deeper penetration than that of a shorter Nose Projection. Big change up in the Super Short BBW#13s--.500s, and .458s being designed for multi purpose in the beginning, lever and bolt, so very short nose projection of the solids. Changed those two with longer nose projection. In study of the 500 BBW#13s, checked Nose Projection, and it was short, not like the lever, but not .700 like most of the other big bore #13s. So I almost made a change, but then did not, it worked great, why change? Well, the North Fork .500s have that longer nose projection, less in the case, more case capacity, and longer nose projection, enhances penetration. Waiting right now on some #13s, 450 gr, .500s, .700 nose projection.

It will be very rare that one would ever see any difference between the copper and brass construction issues in the field.

I have a fellow with a 50 B&M, using the old North Forks, 20 inch barrel I think. He sent me some data that blew my mind the other day, getting the old North Forks to 2400 fps, no issues. But, that might be pretty close as I was running those in 18 inches all over 2350.

quote:

I wonder if the North Fork CPES copper is softer than the FPS copper?
Or is it the same hardness and the expansion is due that much to the shallow cup in nose?

I think its the same copper. Expansion due to cup/cavity design. Very Excellent, lots of trauma inflicted, lots of animal reaction with the CPES, the .500s. Lot's of penetration as well.



NE450#2

quote:

IF they do Penetrate Deeper than the Original NF Solids, then they are a danger to the Planet.

They do in fact, at least in the test work thus far here. I am getting 20% to 25% more penetration over the old nose profile. Talking to John the other day I asked him what they were getting on their end and it's roughly the same increase, leaning towards the upper side and a bit more. My son only fired one of these new profiles in his huge bodied Aussie bull, and it was not recovered, my memory wants to tell me it exited after well over 40+ inches. This was a 375 gr, .500 caliber, around 2200 fps. It may still be going? I don't suppose that Australia/Texas, maybe, burning through the earth? Keep your head down! Or maybe Up, in this case? LOL...............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Todd,
Funny thing is, sometimes, when I differ in opinion with someone and speak my mind, I get this 'I will never be a GSC customer' reaction. Such opinions are often expressed on open forum and a large number of them are simply an attempt at economic blackmail. A way to make me shut up and for my contrary opinion to go away. For every blackmail attempt, I probably get three or four emails and PMs that say 'good stuff, stick to your guns'. Maybe that is why I have learned to speak my mind, rather than shut up, morally corrupt.

If I agreed with a contrary opinion to (maybe) gain some business, two things would be a fact: I would be morally corrupt and both the (maybe potential) customer and I would be wrong. What use is that?

Another funny thing is your double standard. It is not uncommon, I have seen it many times. Other manufacturers and testers actually swear at those who hold contrary opinion. They call them idiots and bozos and tell them to f### off, and not a word is said. In fact, it is regarded as funny, in some cases. I say: "If the way GSC makes bullets does not suit your thinking, do not order GSC bullets." and it is the end of the world?

I design and build bullets based on testing that began in 1992. The GSC bullet that did so well in Saeed's penetration testing is all of 15 years old. Most of the designs that people have messed around with in the last number of years are old hat and probably evaluated and discarded long ago. So forgive me for getting testy when people try to second guess me. Then again, I have only been at bullet design and manufacture for 20 years, full time, what would I know.

Gerard,

I don't have a double standard at all. I don't do business with anyone who pisses on their customers! I also don't prefer you or anyone else to not speak their mind. I speak mine all the time. And I'm not trying to blackmail you.

All I'm saying is that I really don't care how good your bullets are. And I do hear they are great. I care that you don't value your customers enough to speak to them with respect. You can still say what's on your mind, but there is more than one way to get the message across.

You should ask yourself this question Gerard. With all the talk on this forum of CEB and North Fork bullets, and with most knowledgable people here realizing that the GSC bullet is just as good, why is all the talk on this forum about CEB and North Fork and only very occasionally does GSC get mentioned. Here is a hint for you: It isn't the bullet!!

quote:

most knowledgable people here realizing that the GSC bullet is just as good,

Thank you

quote:

why is all the talk on this forum about CEB and North Fork

May be the fact that they have been made in the USA from the start.

quote:

and only very occasionally does GSC get mentioned.

Made in Africa until now and the transport killed us.

But you have a short memory on the double standard.

Todd,

I agree with all you have said about Gerard. I tried a couple of times to explain to him how a treating potential customers a little more courteously would benefit his business. But it had no affect on him as his opinion is " I am right, you are wrong!" and "I know more than you since I have been making bullets for 20 years, so you need to keep quiet!". Your wasting your time with him.

It is too bad as he does make a very useable bullet.
465H&H

There is a common factor here. Those who think I am rude also hold contrary opinion and are not prepared to discuss another.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
There is a common factor here. Those who think I am rude also hold contrary opinion and are not prepared to discuss another.

Gerard,

Perhaps we would be more inclined to discuss issues with you if you were not so ready to belittle those that do.

465H&H

quote:

if you were not so ready to belittle those that do.

Give a link to one instance where I did that. Warrior excepted.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Todd,

I agree with all you have said about Gerard. I tried a couple of times to explain to him how a treating potential customers a little more courteously would benefit his business. But it had no affect on him as his opinion is " I am right, you are wrong!" and "I know more than you since I have been making bullets for 20 years, so you need to keep quiet!". Your wasting your time with him.

It is too bad as he does make a very useable bullet.
465H&H

I have been amazed at what some of those in the industry post here and on other forums...pissing contest, judgmental, lack of subtlety, promotion while not disclosing potential conflicts, hawking products in which they have a financial interest without some basic disclosure, downing competitors while promoting their own interest or those they represent, my way or the highway, etc...

We all make mistakes but some of this stuff is just baffling....

As to the new designed North Fork Solids...used them on a couple of Tuskless Elephant with great success in July.

To date, I have had really great performance from North Fork bullets. The new designed solids shoot pretty much POA with the North Fork Softs in my 404 Jeffery.

The guys at North Fork have always been responsive and helpful in all my interactions with them...

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

The guys at North Fork have always been responsive and helpful in all my interactions with them...

Completely agree. Same with the guys at CEB. Both companies are interested in what their customers have to say about the performance of their bullets, have taken those comments constructively, and made changes and tweaks here and there that continue to keep them on top of their competition. And they treat their customers with respect!

Three days and no link or concrete example - as usual, 465H&H is all talk and no substance. I do not mind if you are into another manufacturer but I do mind when you and your buddies bend the truth to suit your opinion and to slate a person when it is undeserved. You should practice the basic respect that you preach.

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

I have been amazed at what some of those in the industry post here and on other forums...pissing contest, judgmental, lack of subtlety, promotion while not disclosing potential conflicts, hawking products in which they have a financial interest without some basic disclosure, downing competitors while promoting their own interest or those they represent, my way or the highway, etc...

Sounds like you are talking about one eyed Michael458 in the above post !!!

.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by jjs:

I have been amazed at what some of those in the industry post here and on other forums...pissing contest, judgmental, lack of subtlety, promotion while not disclosing potential conflicts, hawking products in which they have a financial interest without some basic disclosure, downing competitors while promoting their own interest or those they represent, my way or the highway, etc...

Sounds like you are talking about one eyed Michael458 in the above post !!!

.

505G

Oh right! You have your head so far up Woodleighs ass you have not seen daylight in 40 years!


Talk about ONE EYE!!!!!! LOL.......................

Michael

Here goes, but I'll wade into this circle of experts and forty pound heads with my LIMITED Experience. While I always believed as most of you do that solids and softs should weigh the same, in the calibers I've worked with both, 450NE, 375 H&H and 405 WCF, I've almost never gotten softs and solids to shoot to POI without tweaking the load charge, albeit by very small changes. My experiences with North Forks are with the 405 and there the softs(411) and solids (413)are very accurate and shoot to POI, BUT, in order to do so, I have to reduce the charge of the solids by two grains. Same for the 375 and Barnes TSXz and Banded solids about a two grain difference.
With the 450NE, factory Hornady DGX/S do shoot to POI but I am unsure if the vary the load as well. Enter the CEBs... the 450gr Non-Con and the 480 solid shoot to POI with the same powder load and even though the Non Con is fully 60 to 70 FPS faster. At any rate at least in my mind, my money's with Michael's theory. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
505G
Oh right! You have your head so far up Woodleighs ass you have not seen daylight in 40 years!

Talk about ONE EYE!!!!!! LOL.......................
Michael

Just following your example !

I at acknowledge other bullets are good / fine, I just don't see the need to radically change what for me is a working formula until I change what I hunt when they are so readily available here - and were long before other bullets came about. And I have used Hydro's so that was a change anyway.

.

505 and Michael,

I don't think either of you are lending credence to your positions by using personal attacks. Just my opinion.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
505 and Michael,

I don't think either of you are lending credence to your positions by using personal attacks. Just my opinion.

465H&H

465HH--

First of all, from all the LOL, I was dicking around with 505, which I am not sure he realized, from the 1 eyed comment he made on another thread he and I were on. I thought the comment was funny as hell, not meant as a personal attack.

Just my sense of humor, and nothing I would not tell him straight up to his face either.

If anyone takes offense to this, well to bad.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

Ya see--Even South Africans have a sense of humor!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

Ya see--Even South Africans have a sense of humor!

I thought that there was a law against thet in South africa?

465H&H

There are many thoughts and opinions that you have, that are incorrect. Point proven right here, albeit in jest.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

I have used Hydro's so that was a change anyway.

.

505G:

I am a fan of the Hydros as well. I was wondering, have you tried them in a double? I have no trouble shooting them in a bolt gun but am a bit nervous about shooting them in a double. What does Geoff say in that regard.

South Africans have to have a sense of humour these days considering who holds the reins of political power and how they choose to wield it, otherwise the alternative is to cry a lot ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
I have used Hydro's so that was a change anyway.
.

505G:
I am a fan of the Hydros as well. I was wondering, have you tried them in a double? I have no trouble shooting them in a bolt gun but am a bit nervous about shooting them in a double. What does Geoff say in that regard.

Have a look at the Hydro thread - it might be in Double Rifle's but I'll repeat it here.

Geoff has no problem shooting them in Doubles, he wouldn't put a bullet out there if there was as he is a double shooter as well.

I've used them in my 500/465 - al be it at the request of Geoff as he needed a sample recovery from a double rifle.

I wasn't gong to use any of these type of bullets but because he needed them and he said it would be OK, I did it.

I would always measure the bores of a double, especially the older guns before using them just to make sure. My 500/465 is slightly undersize in the bore but that didn't seem
to worry it.

I'd use them if I needed to as penetration is superb and wound channels excellent.
.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
South Africans have to have a sense of humour these days considering who holds the reins of political power and how they choose to wield it, otherwise the alternative is to cry a lot ...

Like we'll need if comrad Obama wins

quote:

Originally posted by 600 Overkill:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
South Africans have to have a sense of humour these days considering who holds the reins of political power and how they choose to wield it, otherwise the alternative is to cry a lot ...

Like we'll need if comrad Obama wins

While I concur, I fear we will need a hell of a lot more than a sense of humor! Bill is exactly right, in fact, South Africa may be in a hell of a lot better shape than us should that tragedy come to pass!

Michael

I am not sure about that, Michael. It is a tragedy wherever leaders fall short but, in Africa, it is a special kind of illogical, unthinking, falling short.

Example: One of our machines burnt out a tool turret motor yesterday. I sourced one in JHB and, normally I would ask a courier to collect it today and have it tomorrow. However, there is a country wide transport strike in place and it has turned violent. No deliveries are happening at all. No cash in transit vehicles are running, no mail is being delivered and no fuel can get to service stations. Fuel will run out at some stations by to-morrow.

Wekkers are demanding a 12% increase in wages and employers cannot afford that.

I have used North Forks extensively on buffalo and prefer the cup points to any other bullet that I have tried, they expand a bit and penetrate like the dickens..I have also used GSC for years and its a grand bullet on anything that walks..I also love Woodleighs..If I had to choose between the three I'd go insane again! so I use all three and Nosler partitions, just depends on whats handy when I reload them.

quote:

I am not sure about that, Michael. It is a tragedy wherever leaders fall short but, in Africa, it is a special kind of illogical, unthinking, falling short.

Gerard

I understand exactly what you are saying, but as you may or may not know I have some special links with the RSA, since my wife is South African. A tragedy, yes for sure. However, do not think for one second that our situation here in the good ole US of A is any different, our politicians here have a very special, sometimes even evil, kind of "illogical", unthinking and fall far short of anything within the realm of reasonable common knowledge! In fact, there is no Reasonable Thinking that comes from Washington DC.

Michael

I hear Gee-Whiz-Gerard is still sending bullets of PLUS-.512" caliber to owners of rifles with .500-bore and .510-groove specs,
even when he knows about it.
That makes for a tight fit in a .511"-diameter free-bore.
Makes it hard to even chamber a round.

Hard to understand why a .512-.513 bullet diameter is supposed to work in a .510-grooved barrel, when the bullet maker knows the barrel spec is .500 bore and .510 groove.

Thankfully, a simple, cheap push-through sizer from Lee is all you need to turn the CNC-precision uselessness into usable bullets.

Pusher rod inserted on ram of press pushes the bullet base, and the bullet goes through the die nose first.
You end up with shiny copper bands on the bullet instead of moly-coated bands.

Price for the Lee sizer custom made was only about $30 when I had one made several years ago.
416Tanzan said he got it recently for about $20 from Midway, USA, IIRC.

Here are the instructions that came with one, and some pics of one in .510"-size.











The little pusher rod clips into the shell-holder receptacle of your bench press and just pushes that oversize bullet through a proper-diameter-for-bullet die.
Lube with the Lee Liquid Alox,
or STP oil treatment.

+1

prof242 told me about these for .395-caliber plinker use.
I got a set custom made like he did.
Mine were .405, .400, .397, .396. .395, .394.
.400-caliber pistol bullets can be sized down to shoot in a .395.
.410 and .411 rifle bullets can be sized down to .395.
Also, after lubing as-cast-oversize .396-caliber/410-gr LBT cast lead bullets in a heated .400-caliber Lyman Lubrisizer die with nose punch and gas checker, starting the gas check there,
I do a final pass through the .396 Lee sizer (base punch) to final size and square-up the gas check.

That hole through the .510" Lee sizer is precise enough to correct the thinking of GSC.
There is no spring-back of the GSC bands.
They are shiney and precisely .510" diameter.
Works well.
I ordered bullets for .500-bore/.510-groove from GSC and got +.512-caliber.
Someone else I know has gotten the same "Gee-Whiz-Gerard" treatment recently:

Gotta remember, though, RIP. Yer da father of the .395 and I was only a tailgater. By the way, will be using the CEB 240 copper bullet this year in the .400/.395 NE for antelope. Shades of 1880!

Max,
Thanks for reminding me of that dubious "honor."
I hear that someone in Pensylvania is about to take delivery of another 400/.395 Nitro Express, by Rusty McGee.
Your antelope hunt should be very interesting with that .395/240-grain CEB copper "hollow-pointy-thing" bullet.

Anyone used the "CUP POINT" bullets on Elephant?
What's the thought on this?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Anyone used the "CUP POINT" bullets on Elephant?
What's the thought on this?

North Fork has recommended against it.

465H&H