Did you ever have one of those times when you have heard something repeated so often that you just finally say enough! That's the way I feel about the continuous references to feeding problems with the .500 Jeffery. It's not just on AR either. In Terry Wieland's new book, DANGEROUS GAME RIFLES, I found the following quote with respect to the .500 Jeffery:

"Combine high chamber pressures with questions about extraction, and you do not have a wonderful situation. WHILE EVERYONE WRITES ABOUT THE POTENTIAL PROBLEMS, NO ONE SAYS THEY EVER CAME TO PASS."

Now mind you, Terry never says he owned a .500 Jeffery or that he ever fired one. On the other hand, John Taylor who did shoot one had this to say about the .500 Jeffery:

"It is a glorious weapon and very easy to handle and shoot. I used three of these rifles at different times, trying them out for their owners, and each time told myself that I simply must get one for myself. This is the only magazine rifle that has ever had that effect on me. I preferrd it to the .505..."

While I think the .505 Gibbs is indeed a wonderful cartridge, I prefer the .500 Jeffery because it is so much easier to load. It uses less powder but is more powerful than the Gibbs, it doesn't require fillers and, becasue it is shorter, it works in a .375 length action. I agree with Pondoro!

Now here is my question. Has anyone here ever had problems with sticky extraction or failure to feed with THEIR .500 Jeffery. I don't mean "I once new a guy who said that his cousin told him that he heard about a guy who had a problem." I mean (1) do YOU have a .500 Jeffery and (2) have YOU ever experienced a feeding problem or sticky extraction?

Dave

IMHO, the Gibbs is a much better cartridge for DG. The J-big boy operates at higher pressure and has very little taper, compared to the Gibbs. The proof/performance #'s for the Gibbs are waaaaaaay under the Jefferys'. A 525gr bullet at 2300fps equates to 39,600Psi. My load of a 650gr bullet at 2200fps with 120gr of VVoy N160 was only 40,000Psi. I'll give this back after noting that the Gibbs will run those 650gr bullets over 2400fps and not show ANY signs of pressure...except the discomfort level.
If you want a Jeffery's just build one! Talk to MJines first.


Rich
DRSS

im having a custom 505 gibbs built it will shoot 600 grain bullets at 2400 fps....

the guy making it ryan breeding he was a student of vanhorn's a noted very top notch gun smith...

www.rbbigbores.com

i highly recommend him.

I would be interested to read about how many $ 5,000.00 plus large caliber bolt action rifles have a problem or more . If purchased and taken out and had and shot a few hundred times in a month or even a year or 2 .. When used in real life hunting , shooting and tramping around situations.............A big bore rifle is a very personel tool.......It is almost as if a person needs to be qualified to operate it.....and I include reloading for it in there...I think the 500 J / 505 G/ debate is kind of un realistic.......Will the Jeffries hang up because of high pressure, or will the Gibbs hang up because of too much bolt thrust ....The Gibbs has greater case capicity as every one knows......But do you need a 650 gr bullet @ 2400 fps ????? I,m not saying any one doesn,t ,, but has the original loadings failed when they were topped off with modern super premium bullets ?? will a 535 gr .510 dia bullet @2400 fps stop a chargeing Elephant faster than a 525 gr.505 dia bullet @ 2300 fps ..... I think both are Wonderful!! I would like either...But when I have a 50 built it will be a 500 A-Square.....Is that a better round , probably not ,other than haveing the garrentee of a belt.....which helps guns go bang every time they are needed to........Plus less $ to feed it...But mainly because I just really like that round......If you like one over the other ,, Great There are getting to be quite a few 500 J,s in ZA ,,,,I have not read about any extraction problems with them......

Dave,

I have to agree with Idaho & Nitro....

I do not own a 500 Jeffery yet, so I can’t and won’t comment on its feeding (though I have heard it’s a bitch to get to feed). But I do have a 505 and it does not require fillers with modern powders. The 500 has always been loaded to higher pressures than the 505, so performance comparisons have been skewed (I’m sure this is the basis of Taylor’s statement that you’ve quoted).

The 500 Jeff is no where near as powerful as the 505. When loaded to the same pressure the 505 will trump the 500 (Jeffery or A-square) every time, due to its greater case capacity.

Gumboot, I do not believe that bolt thrust is as big of an issue as some make it out to be. If that was the case I’d have to question all of the 600 OKs and 585s that have been built using the same case head dimension. See my posts regarding reaching 2400-2500 fps with a 600 gr bullet in the Gibbs (I’m not one to question the Gurus here).

525 grain bullets are too light for caliber anyway; you really have to make your comparisons based on 600 grain bullets.

Matt V.

quote:

Originally posted by trophyhunter5000:


525 grain bullets are too light for caliber anyway; you really have to make your comparisons based on 600 grain bullets.

Matt V.

a very good and solid point the 505 really comes into its owen with 570 to 650 grain bullets
600 being the best comprimies......525 are far to light and sould have never been used in the first place but at the time powders and bullets were not exactly what youd call plentiful so there wasnt much to choose from.

the .505 Gibbs is loaded with 600 grains Woodleighs in Normas new African PH ammo

It's possible to built a .500 jeffery that feeds 100% reliably so that it is suitable for DG use. But there are very few gunsmiths who know how to do it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Did you ever have one of those times when you have heard something repeated so often that you just finally say enough! That's the way I feel about the continuous references to feeding problems with the .500 Jeffery. It's not just on AR either.

Dave, I know what you are saying. Some people trash the 378 & 460 Weatherbys but have never fired or used them! go figure!!

So ,,, Has either of these calibers 500 or 505 failed their user when useing modern bullets of original weight.........????? how far do they have to penetrate to work well..????

I have had both. there are many issues with both rounds.
505; Getting an action that is both long enough as well as wide enough. The main problem is overcrouding in the magazine box. Even in my Magnum Mauser Orberndorf, There was hardly enough metal to contain the round on the bolt face. This became more of a push to feed affair than a controlled round feed. Try the trick of pulling the bolt and put a round on the bolt face and see if it will support the loaded round while it is horizonttal. I don't think many can. The calibers reputation was made with the 525 gr. bullet. It works fine on buff. I don't know about the effects on elephant as I have never killed one. My 505 was a little difficult in feeding because three down was really tight in the box. I had an extended floorplate made for it and it got definitely better. Then it held three down and one up. If shot at a chronographed 2300 f/s and a standard bullet, there was no pressure sign or extraction problem.

500 Jeffery; This rifle was originally loaded and fired in the summer of 06 and the daily temps exceeded 105 degrees. On one day the temp under the roof was averaging 108 degrees and that is plenty of ambient temp to test any round for sticky extraction. I loaded the cases with 105 gr. Varget and in my rifle it produced an average velocity of 2369f/s. There were a few crossed eyes but no sticky extraction even after 20 rounds. My rifle is on an Orberndorf regular mauser action and the feeding is a bit off. I am pretty sure it is because the magazine box is tight. It was made by Blackburn for the 500 Jeffery. With two down it is fine. I want three down and that is where the problem lies.With three in the box, they will fit but one can not easily close over the third and have one up the spout. Doing so just makes the whole load/feed/extract a questionable issue. My fix for this was to return it to the maker who will make an extended, Rigby type floor plate to give an extra 1/8+" more room in the box. I think then the load/feed/extract issue will be solved. This rifle is a true controlled feed rifle. The round will sit and hold in a horizontal bullet.

Both calibers were made to shoot 525 to 535 gr. bullets. In that regard they seem to have been up to the task and I see no reason to shoot heavier bullets unless ones of proper weitht are not available. My Jeffery is loaded with 540 gr. FN solids from GS custom because they do not make a 535 gr. option. They do make a 500gr bullet but to me that was not the answer. I down load my rounds to 2200 f/s and I can shoot 20 or so off the bench at a given sitting and not be beat up very much at all. At 2450 f/s I can manage about 8-10 and then I am out. I shoot off the bench as I really am still in the load development phase of this rifle and I want to know exactly where these bullets will go before I attack an elephant and buff this August in the Rungua.

lb404,

Thanks for your post. I suspect that many feeding problems are magazine box originated. If your rifle feeds FN bullets, what else could you want?

It seems that there are those that can never be satisfied with a cartridge as originally designed. A 30-06 must shoot 700 gr. bullets, and if the rifle doesn't feed them, the cartridge and/or the rifle is a piece of crap.

Anyone that cannot get along with the Jeffery or Gibbs as originally issued it seems should be shooting some other cartridge.

Does anyone want to talk about the 4 (or was it 6) different chamber specs that the .500 jeff has been built to?

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
So ,,, Has either of these calibers 500 or 505 failed their user when useing modern bullets of original weight.........????? how far do they have to penetrate to work well..????

No one is saying that either fails on game. Just that the .500 Jeff is hard for a gunsmith to get to feed properly.

guys, let's make sure we get grounded here...

the gibbs has a nominal 39k PSI load, and the jeffe at 46Kpsi ... these are NEITHER higher pressure loading...

the jeffe (aka schuler) is the far superior grain of powder to performance, at orginal loadings.

which means it takes LESS powder to get the same speed... which means, frankly, less recoil.

the jeffe can be made to fit in a mauser, or just about any other standard length action, the gibbs can not.

the jeffe is DAMN hard to get to feed right...

and the gibbs IS NOT ONE LICK EASIER, though largely due to how much you have to cut up out of the action.

at factory loading, the jeffe is the better round...

now, if you want to start jacking around with pressure, and making the gibbs a higher velocity and higher pressure load, it has more boiler room to get there than the jeffe....

but it's few and far between shooters that can take a 9.75# 50caliber and shoot it at 2350, much less those than can take it at 2500...


in fact, once you start getting above 2400fps, you might as well build a 550 express and be done with it... power AND actions

jeffe

Jeffe, Will, and Ib404, you are indeed the voices of reason here! javascript:void(0)

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You too Gumboot! Right on!

Dave

I used a Heym 500 jeffery culling some animals and after a lot of shots it performed perfect never have a feed problem .ANDRE fLOR IS A REAL EXPERT ON THE 500 JEFFERY aka Jefferydenmark.juan

take it from the top:

1. Jeffe, who cares how much powder it takes to hit 2400fps in the Gibbs? If you got a couple grand to buy or
have one built, and anywhere from $10K upwards to hunt with it in Africa; an extra 10-cents a shot for
powder machts nichts!

2. Dave and ALF, the facts are: the 500J has been plagued with stories of feeding issues since day two. IMHO
the rebated rim is a large part of the problem. They persist to this day, we see them posted here on the
AR forum. The 505 Gibbs does not seem to have them. The Gibbs round is fairly simple to get to feed
properly in the P-series enfields and M30/34/35 Remingtons.

3. At equivalent pressures the Gibbs is a much more powerful (ME) round than the Jefferys. Gibbs just loaded
it for tropical temperature extremes. VihtaVuorioy ballisticians told me that my Gibbs load, 120gr of VVo
N160 behind a 650gr bullet at 2180fps only made an even 40KPsi pressure level. And, I can shoot 5-shot
groups right at an inch and a half at 50 yards. Three or four of them in a row if you want.

4, As of the SHOT Show, actually a couple of months prior to, the 505 Gibbs IS a factory rifle. I am sure
that CZ looked at the 500J and the Gibbs before deciding on the Gibbs. Probably because of the feeding
issues, as they were already making the 404 and it would have been easier to not have to start from scratch
on the Gibbs case dimensions.

Sooooooo, you can buy a Gibbs, or build a 550J...and the choice is yours. For less than $3K you have a 505 Gibbs, brass, dies and bullets and can be shooting it within 2 hours of ponying up the $$$ and leaving the store. Jefferys is going to take a little more time and $$$, and it might take some time to get it to feed.

regards,

Rich
DRSS
oh, yeah...550 Gibbs!

Rich, CZ us now chambering the .500 Jeffery. I know. I have one and it feeds great. So, for less than $3K you too can have the better cartridge

Dave

/

I bet Jeffe's point about powder charge was not economic, but ergonomic.
If we're worried about the 500's pressure, why do we not consider the increased bolt thrust of loading up the Gibbs? Likely why it was loaded to that spec in the first place. (Not that it can't take a higher pressure rating, but so can the Jeffery I suspect.)
The 500 A-Square, despite having ZERO nostalgia factor, does have a few advantages to them both: brass, ease of conversion, plenty of power (600/2475?!). Maybe CZ should've done that one instead.
But get an action that's truly designed for that size of round (e.g., MT Rifle's PH) and load it long with 650's in a 12# gun and it'll do something neither of the other two will.
Who wants to do that is another question.

I admit I have an anachoronistic nostalgia streak, and an affinity for efficiency. That's why I like the 470 Mbogo so much. What say we blow the 505's shoulder out to .620 and rebate it to .625 and neck it to .510" caliber. Now we have the lower bolt thrust of light taper, the bigger bite on the boltface, the bullet selection - all the good - AND the rebate/case width feeding issues, lack of nostalgia, massive powder charge -allthe bad.
Everybody equally unhappy?

Get more info on .500 Jeffe aou there as i will build one in a while (read when the cash is there )

So that will be buildt on a Husquarna/FN action.

but then its the chamber tolerances that frankly worries me/scares me a little as that can happend, but ithink thats due to reamer specs and to get the brass that is of good quality.

But that will fit in a M98, the 505 wont even in a Magnum mauser if it has gotten a wider bolt.

The good news is that norma will load them both in their PH series, the .505 gibbs has come out with a 600 grain bullet at 2100 fps.

But it will be very fun to get the powerhouse in a nice package to test here and there.

The Short, but Happy Life of Francis McComber: "...the short, shockingly big-bored 505 Gibbs...".

It is good to hear that CZ chambers for both, choice is always good...makes for spirited discussions if nothing else. I remember a GM guy telling me his 450horse 454 chevelle was more than a match for my 68Hemi roadrunner because he was packing 25 more horse. Snicker...

Personally, I've handled several 505 Gibbs built on P-series or Remingtons, and they all fed wonderful...all three rounds from the magazine, and in one case four with a Wisner drop box floorplate. With my loads I would have no qualms facing four cape buffalo or elephant with my friend's Wisner-crafted 505 Gibbs. If Jim had built it in 500J I would be equally comfortable with it. Soooooooooo, for me, it boils down to craftsmanship. There just seem to be more gunsmiths able to deal with the Gibbs.

The only wrong choice is one that won't feed 101% of the time. That's ALWAYS-plus!

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

quote:

all three rounds from the magazine, and in one case four with a Wisner drop box floorplate. With my loads I would have no qualms facing four cape buffalo or elephant with my friend's Wisner-crafted 505 Gibbs.

Obviously you haven't hunted any large and dangerous game. Neither of these cartridges can be counted on to instantly drop the animals you have listed in the above quote. Experience will educate you on that fact.

I have owned both and I find myself in agreement more or less with Leonard. My preference is the 500 AHR, which is nothing by a slightly improved Jeffery.

Rich,
my point on the powder is recoil. or as BB said "ergonomics"...

btw, the 500a2 has NEARLY as much rebate as the 500 jeffe.... put calipers on big weatherby brass to see.

of them all, the 495 a2 makes the best sense, only because I haven't finished the 500 AR yet

jeffe

Ritch, You are proving my point precicely. Every rifle of recent manufacture IS a custom rifle. They all need converting regardless of the action type as those actions were never made for either case. The enfield action can house most any case but it still takes an exellent smith to do it right. As far as the chamber variences, get real. The vast majority of these rifles will be used by those that load their own. In that regard, each custom rifle is actually a separate item. If one fire forms the round in the chamber then there will be no big deal on chamber fit. My Jeffery was made by Davenport and the chamber reamer he uses is actually the Schuller. He uses this reamer as it is identical to the specifications of the ammo sold by Westley Richards. That ammo is what he recommends to the folks that buy his rifles. He does this for liability. He also knows that the loading dies we get from RCBS even though labeled 500 Jeffery actually look like the Schuller round. I have shot Kynoch ammo in my rifle and there was a slight feel when the round chambered. Nothing that would have had a negative impact in a hunting situation and most folks would not have noticed any difference in the Kynoch ammo. The Kynoch stuff is labeled 500 Jeffery and is slightly different than the Schuller. Only a very picky person would know the difference. Personally, I think there is more variability in custom rifles in similar chamberings especially from worn chamber reamers!

Jeffe, Jeffe,

The 500J operates at nearly 21% higher pressure than the Gibbs to achieve the same muzzle velocity. Chamber pressure is NOT subjective or subject to debate as to "feel". It is a simple readout from a pressure/strain gauge. Higher case volume = less pressure at a given (constant) velocity and bullet weight. Establish a pressure upper limit or a desired velocity, the Gibbs just does it with less strain on the action.
The Gibbs is less of a hassle to make feed reliably for one simple reason, it does NOT have a rebated rim to complicate the feeding. The rebated rim has not seen widespread acceptance for that specific reason...it is harder to make them work. Any experienced gunsmith will tell you that.
Last point: there does seem to be considerable latitude in cartridge and chambering reamer dimensions as of 01-01-2007. Lb404's unsolicited testimonial bears this out. Granted, it is a minor issue once you acquire ammunition or brass and proceed to load your own. It does, however, beg one last question. If you reload, do you still FL size all DG loads, or rely on your personal history with the rifle to trust neck-sized reloads? Remember, your life is in your hands, and the quality of your loadwork.
I will plead guilty to not ever having done any loadwork on a 500J, and my preference is based 100% on about 150 rounds loaded for my friend Paul's Wisner Gibbs. That is enough to sway me.
The issues with the 500J are enough for me to take the easy out, especially since I have a 510 Wells minus the belt and am using the 505 Gibbs cylindrical brass I got to make a 550 Gibbs.

lb404, you never did report back as to how that 10 gauge Beretta I "found" for you is shooting.

regards,

Rich
DRSS...or a 505/550 Gibbs in a M30.

ScottS,

I am not going to feed the
Or should I call you Judy, or perhaps Axel?
Go away, this is an adult discussion that is preceeding along remarkably civilized lines. It is strictly a preference thing.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Alf,

Why did the original 500 jeffs feed but so many custom ones do not? I think it is obvious by now that very few gunsmiths or gunmakers have the knowledge to build a magazine box with the appropriate geometry for the cartridge. Most try to use boxes that are available, which does not work out that well.

Sometimes I feel that the wisdom of Paul Mauser is in danger of being lost.

Is the 1917 or P14 bolt larger diameter than the CZ550's? Thanks.

Red

/

I think ALF has a very good point here. In stead of getting measurements from an original, everybody should squeese a .500 Jeffery into whatever action available. I would not be surprised to hear that someone tried to make one on a Rem.mod7.
And reinvention is so much harder that looking at recipies.
The .505 Gibbs was blessed with dimensions that forced makers to use only the biggest of actions, thus having lesser problems. Its lack of rebated rim, is off course an advantage too.

Both are actually obsolete. Their factory loadings are ballooney, with way to light bullets, and both suffers from a bad case design - one with its rebate, the other one to big, with a weird caliber bullet.

So the way I see it, if nostalgia is your game, prepare for the hazzle it brings - and quit crying - it was your choise!

If efficienty is your game, choose a modern cartridge, .500 A2, .500AHR,.550 Magnum.

Ritch, I bought that 10ga. Beretta. I then had the barrels bobbed to 26"and screw choked. It swings like a dream and hits geese like hell! Thanks for the tip.

Rich,
you know we are having a fun conversation right? both work and smack the heck out of critters....

heh, i think are in violent agreement...
yep.. the factory loads for the 500jeffe can run 21% higher than the gibbs, and both are mild pressure loads

the gibbs has a VERY much larger case head, and therefore negating the difference in pressure as resolved in bolt thrust,
12600 gibbs, 12262, jeffe...
pretty darn close?

feeding?
well... you see, it's a hard to say thing to get a gibbs or a jeffe to feed... the fact of the matter is that a fella is going to spend just about the same amount of time hogging out an enfield as he would making a mauser sized action feed a jeffe.

different effort, certainly, however, the time is about the same.

i DO, however, think (at the final steps) the gibbs is actualy a bit easier than the jeffe, and both are a breeze if you do a single stack.

but that difference, like pressure and bolt thrust on these two cases, is pretty much a wash.

btw, it's pretty darn hard to load a modern powder, in a 500 jeffe, to 46K and keep the 535 bullets under 2400fps... in fact, it's hard to load to 42K and do that.

and you have to load the gibbs to 39K to get close to 2350 (nominal) with it's 525 gr bullet...

so we are really looking at a difference of 3kpsi, in the "good" range (gibbs and 470NE are at the same pressure, jeffe is LOWER than the 416 rigby... and all of those are lower than factory 404 jeffe) ... lots of great mild pressure loads in that range... either even THINK about 50kpsi.

so, all in all, they are about a wash, and the gibbs requires a specialized action, the jeffe requires a specialized gunsmith..

bet the price works out the same, either way.


jeffe

Rich,

The truth must hurt, eh. Sorry but neither of these cartridges is "easy" to make feed correctly in any of the numerous bolt action rifle actions derived from Mauser's design. They are both far larger than the original design enevelope. Neither will drop buffalo or elephant instantly in a reliable fashion with anything short of brain or spine shots. What they will do is punch LARGE holes in the beasties and allow massive volumes of blood to pour forth making the (typically short) tracking job easy.

I still prefer the 500 AHR to either as I think it is an excellent design compromise between the Gibbs and the Jeffery.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
The truth must hurt, eh.

I still prefer the 500 AHR to either as I think it is an excellent design compromise between the Gibbs and the Jeffery.

do we REALLY want to drag up your sob story on your "500 ahr" axel/posuer/judy/scott/500ahr ?

yeah, thought not.

Jeffe,

quote:

do we REALLY want to drag up your sob story on your "500 ahr" axel/posuer/judy/scott/500ahr ?

yeah, thought not.

Sure why not. At least I have hunted large and/or dangerous game with these cartridges. Have you shot anything with them besides an occasional feral pig or perhaps a Texas whitetail?